Ash Rework

[Bioskop]

Ash was once a room clearer. Other Warframes do what he once did better. My aim here is to realign his purpose with his abilities.

 

Better Bladestorm

• 4th Ability: Clone count = (Marked enemies / X )
  • 5 < X < 10 (maybe make X dependent on Ability Strength)
  • [Traumtulpe] Extend the ability by marking additional enemies
    • add another clone for every X Additional Marked Targets
    • Clones expire after a set amount of attacked Marked Targets or when no Marked targets are left
      • 2*X?
  • Mark enemies hidden behind marked enemies
    • Make "marking" a small AoE burst around already manually marked enemies
      • Small means ~10 Meters
      • Radius dependent on Ability Range
• 2nd Ability (Exiting the 4th exposes Ash):
  • Obsolete if Passive changes as proposed in Support
  • Pause duration when joining 4th ability via Teleport
  • [--Leyenda-yight6] Alternatively extend the duration based on 4th Ability kills

Support

• Passive:
  • [MageSkeleton] reactive stealth (similar to shade's ability)
    • activates upon being "almost spotted"
    • depending on duration
      • OR 5 seconds
    • broken by weapon attacks
      • the original stealth skill would still persist
      • as a failure condition for passive stealth

 

• 3rd Ability: Switch with 1st based on impact on Gameplay (Similar to Kullervos 1st, Ability cost already acknowledges it)
  • 1st ability is now the Teleport
  • [Raarsi]  increased animation speed
  • Fix the Finisher not working on certain enemies
• 3rd ability is now either Shuriken or something equally thematic (Slashing Ninja) 
  • Shuriken
    • Number of affected enemies is really low
    • Damage is low
    • The augment somewhat saves it, but there are way better armor stripping abilities.
  • "Marked For Death" variant
    • duration based (Similar to Gyres' Cathode Grace)
    • triggering for each slash proc 
    • It fits the theme of a contracted killer, whose actions destabilize a region
    • Slash procs can be weapon based so It would support diverse play
    • Marked for all Teammates (to promote Teamplay)
    • Marked only for Slash Damage to limit Conflict with the Infused "Marked For Death"
    • Marked animation should be unobtrusive
      • Smoking enemies?
  • [Traumtulpe]: Shuriken proc Status
    • based on Secondary Weapon
    • in a cone
  • [MageSkeleton]: Shuriken create a "slow area"
    • Should NOT seek enemies
    • >=5 ninja stars
    • slash stack AoE
    • Persist depending on duration

Quality of Life:

• Pick up the loot based on 4th ability kills directly on kill if joined through Teleport
• [Traumtulpe] Make the Smoke Screen recastable (while it's active)
  • Would help the use of the Augment for Team Buffs
  • OR Smoke Screen leaves a smoke screen on cast
    • Enemies react as if everyone is invisible
    • Enemies continue running where they were headed until they exit smoke screen
• Change the Augment for the Teleport to reverse the Functionality of the base skill: Press X to not Finish
• Joining in the 4th animation isn't dependent on the teleport, but can also be achieved by holding the 4th ability button
  • Exit the animation in the same way
• Register damage inflicted on enemies by outside sources while the target is part of the Bladestorm animation
  • Temporarily lift/delay animations that aren't Bladestorm for the duration the Clone attacks
•  

Edited October 30, 2023 by Bioskop
Traumtulpe, --Leyenda-yight6, Raarsi, MageSkeleton, Tesseract7777

[Traumtulpe]

Ash's abilities have 4 issues:

1. Shuriken is a non-ability unless you use the augment, at which point it becomes a below average armor strip.
2. Smoke Screen cannot be recast before activating life support towers or hacking - unless you wait out the remaining time first.
3. Teleport should have been reworked to Wrathful Advance.
4. Blade Storm cannot be recast while clones are still active, thus you basically can't use it half of the time.

Actually, make that 5; Blade Storm needs too precise aiming - if I'm gonna directly aim at the target I might as well pull the trigger and oneshot them with my gun.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Bioskop]

4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Ash's abilities have 4 issues:

1. Shuriken is a non-ability unless you use the augment, at which point it becomes a below average armor strip.
2. Smoke Screen cannot be recast before activating life support towers or hacking - unless you wait out the remaining time first.
3. Teleport should have been reworked to Wrathful Advance.
4. Blade Storm cannot be recast while clones are still active, thus you basically can't use it half of the time.

Actually, make that 5; Blade Storm needs too precise aiming - if I'm gonna directly aim at the target I might as well pull the trigger and oneshot them with my gun.

1. Agreed, what do you think of my suggestion?

2. That would be a nice QoL change but the duration is so short I do not see it as a real issue.

3. I do not know. I thought it was fine, but I am open to suggestions.

4. Agreed

5. I actually like that tbh. It takes situational awareness and hand eye coordination - which makes it a rare challenge. Quite thrilling.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Bioskop

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, Bioskop said:

1. Agreed, what do you think of my suggestion?

2. That would be a nice QoL change but the duration is so short I do not see it as a real issue.

3. I do not know. I thought it was fine, but I am open to suggestions.

4. Agreed

5. I actually like that tbh. It takes situational awareness and hand eye coordination - which makes it a rare challenge. Quite thrilling.

Any change to Shuriken is welcome, as the ability really doesn't do anything without the augment. Can't do worse than nothing, right? Personally I'd have it proc all the status effects of the elements on your secondary weapon (similar to Manyfold Bond), and affect a narrow cone like Banish does.

Well imagine the following situation: One of your allies is down and has 3 seconds left to live. You have 3 seconds left on Smoke Screen. Do you 1) start reviving and get downed yourself in the process as your invisibility runs out, or 2) stand next to your dying team mate waiting to recast Smoke Screen, with him probably wondering why the hell you're not reviving him. The short duration on Smoke Screen makes such scenarios very common.

Personally I haven't used Teleport since MfD got nerfed into the ground. The ability just isn't worth casting as is unfortunately, it's just inferior to Wrathful Advance in every conceivable way.

Fair enough about Blade Storm. The inability to recast this is really what makes me not want to bother with it apart from single targets.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 27 minutos, Traumtulpe dijo:

Any change to Shuriken is welcome, as the ability really doesn't do anything without the augment. Can't do worse than nothing, right? Personally I'd have it proc all the status effects of the elements on your secondary weapon (similar to Manyfold Bond), and affect a narrow cone like Banish does.

Well imagine the following situation: One of your allies is down and has 3 seconds left to live. You have 3 seconds left on Smoke Screen. Do you 1) start reviving and get downed yourself in the process as your invisibility runs out, or 2) stand next to your dying team mate waiting to recast Smoke Screen, with him probably wondering why the hell you're not reviving him. The short duration on Smoke Screen makes such scenarios very common.

Personally I haven't used Teleport since MfD got nerfed into the ground. The ability just isn't worth casting as is unfortunately, it's just inferior to Wrathful Advance in every conceivable way.

Fair enough about Blade Storm. The inability to recast this is really what makes me not want to bother with it apart from single targets.

It seems to me that a good change would be that the invisibility is extended for each enemy killed by blade storm and teleport should automatically finish when used and add the ability to teleport (ironic that it doesn't).

[Bioskop]

12 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Any change to Shuriken is welcome, as the ability really doesn't do anything without the augment. Can't do worse than nothing, right? Personally I'd have it proc all the status effects of the elements on your secondary weapon (similar to Manyfold Bond), and affect a narrow cone like Banish does.

Well imagine the following situation: One of your allies is down and has 3 seconds left to live. You have 3 seconds left on Smoke Screen. Do you 1) start reviving and get downed yourself in the process as your invisibility runs out, or 2) stand next to your dying team mate waiting to recast Smoke Screen, with him probably wondering why the hell you're not reviving him. The short duration on Smoke Screen makes such scenarios very common.

Personally I haven't used Teleport since MfD got nerfed into the ground. The ability just isn't worth casting as is unfortunately, it's just inferior to Wrathful Advance in every conceivable way.

Fair enough about Blade Storm. The inability to recast this is really what makes me not want to bother with it apart from single targets.

You mean poisoned shuriken? I can see that.

I always revive in Operator sneak so that doesn't apply to me. But this change would help with buffing the Team through Ashs' Augment.

Consider the Synergy between a Buff that makes Slash AoE and Bladestorm.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Bioskop
Augment

[Bioskop]

1 hour ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

It seems to me that a good change would be that the invisibility is extended for each enemy killed by blade storm and teleport should automatically finish when used and add the ability to teleport (ironic that it doesn't).

Built in Trickery might be a bit greedy. Depends on the Duration though. 

If you want Finish and the option to teleport why does the current version (teleport and option to Finish) not suit you?

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 4 minutos, Bioskop dijo:

Built in Trickery might be a bit greedy. Depends on the Duration though. 

If you want Finish and the option to teleport why does the current version (teleport and option to Finish) not suit you?

Yes, it may be too much, perhaps it would be better for teleport to increase the duration of his invisibility when finishing.

I don't know if you understand (English is not my main language and the translator is a bit bad), what I propose is that teleport can teleport freely like Kullervo does and that when aiming at an enemy it does an automatic finish, because the way The way it works now is quite tedious, if the enemy is stunned by some status effect or ability you cannot kill him and sometimes teleporting leaves you too far from the enemy to kill him, something that does not happen if you use his augmentation.

[Bioskop]

8 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

Yes, it may be too much, perhaps it would be better for teleport to increase the duration of his invisibility when finishing.

I don't know if you understand (English is not my main language and the translator is a bit bad), what I propose is that teleport can teleport freely like Kullervo does and that when aiming at an enemy it does an automatic finish, because the way The way it works now is quite tedious, if the enemy is stunned by some status effect or ability you cannot kill him and sometimes teleporting leaves you too far from the enemy to kill him, something that does not happen if you use his augmentation.

I have added your suggestion as an Augment Idea under "Quality of Life" in the main post. Would that satisfy you?

Personally I like how it is currently. Kullervos normal teleport takes a bit of windup and I don't want that in my Ninja.

[Raarsi]

Make Shuriken augment effect baseline, and make the augment instead increase how many go out at some sort of expense (lower damage, higher energy, something like that).

Make Smokescreen just an AoE invisibility field for all allies.

Maybe make Teleport's cast a tiny bit zippier.

Make Bladestorm skip the aim portion and just have it drain energy while it does auto-finishers on any random targets in your field of view.

....yup, that sounds workable.  Probably, idk.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Raarsi

[Bioskop]

7 hours ago, Raarsi said:

Make Shuriken augment effect baseline, and make the augment instead increase how many go out at some sort of expense (lower damage, higher energy, something like that).

Make Smokescreen just an AoE invisibility field for all allies.

Maybe make Teleport's cast a tiny bit zippier.

Make Bladestorm skip the aim portion and just have it drain energy while it does auto-finishers on any random targets in your field of view.

....yup, that sounds workable.  Probably, idk.

Your Shuriken change would make it similar to styanax armor strip, just worse because you need a mod slot. Stripping armor is more of an afterthought for Ash anyway, because Slash Procs ignore armor. 

The augment already does that without restricting movement.

Fair enough.

That was the old version of Ash's Bladestorm. DE discarded it because it was too mindless.

[Bioskop]

On 2023-10-23 at 4:35 PM, Bioskop said:

Mark enemies hidden behind marked enemies

• Make "marking" a small AoE burst around already manually marked enemies
  • Small means ~10 Meters
  • Radius dependent on Ability Range

• [Traumtulpe] Extend the ability by marking additional enemies
  • add another clone for every X Additional Marked Targets

@Traumtulpe@Raarsi@--Leyenda-yight6
What do you think of this change? Do you think that is enough to make it worthwhile?

Edited October 25, 2023 by Bioskop
Incomplete quote

[Traumtulpe]

7 hours ago, Bioskop said:

What do you think of this change?

I wouldn't mind that, but it just makes the ability a little more convenient to cast (don't need to swipe the mouse as much) - the real issue is that you can't cast it at all if there's still a clone active somewhere, and you don't know whether your clones are done unless you look into the bottom right corner of your screen to check the ability.

So in practice every time you'd want to cast Bladestorm you stop a moment to look into your screen's corner, you see there's still a number on Bladestorm meaning you *can't*, so you go back to using your weapons - over and over. It's a nuisance.

[Bioskop]

On 2023-10-23 at 4:35 PM, Bioskop said:

[Traumtulpe] Extend the ability by marking additional enemies

• add another clone for every X Additional Marked Targets

 

@Traumtulpe I included this. My bad for not including it in the Quote.

[Bioskop]

On 2023-10-23 at 4:35 PM, Bioskop said:

Clones expire after a set amount of attacked Marked Targets or when no Marked targets are left

 

On 2023-10-23 at 4:35 PM, Bioskop said:

Register damage inflicted on enemies by outside sources while the target is part of the Bladestorm animation

• Temporarily lift/delay animations that aren't Bladestorm for the duration the Clone attacks

 

Changelog entry

Edited October 26, 2023 by Bioskop

[MageSkeleton]

Ash has become so useless in today's WARFRAME game, the only time i use him is with the Fatal Teleport augment to unlock rivens. i hope to add another useful opinion to this discussion hoping Ash gets help. And making his base warframe parts come from odd places when they used to be random drops from Grineer Manics (which made sense) goes into another discussion i'd like to call "The Grendal Problem" but now onto my opinions of Ash. 

Ash is built to be the representation of a ninja, and it would be fitting to have his abilities align with what ninja's are and do. i'm no expert on the arts of ninja's but it's been a subject i've watched videos from content creators who know what being a ninja is all about. 

1. Shuriken; Should NOT seek enemies, but be at least five ninja stars, where they land they create a "slow area" that gives stacks of slash as enemies walk over the location and the stars stay depending on duration. 

2. Stealth ability; This should be a reactive ability, just like how shade's ability works where you activate it, then upon being "almost spotted" you go into stealth depending on duration, but you can "activate it" by pressing the ability again. Does not need to be long but should be longer than five seconds. 

3. Teleport; This ability should be completely changed. You should be able to target an enemy and, as long as you don't do anything Warframe like, as far as the enemies are concerned your one of them. Shooting an enemy while under this cover will cause enemies that didn't see you to randomly shoot other enemies similar to Nyx's confusion. 

4. Shadow Clones; All alerted/aware enemies get a stealthy shadow to assassinate them. Without effecting any enemies that are NOT alerted/aware. And doing either or both alerted enemies or aware enemies works without making this ability a "full room clearer" like before, while being a "pseudo room clearer" as in endless missions all enemies are normally "alerted" but can be set to only target enemies that are actively attacking a tenno. You could be in a room of enemies and press this ability but if none of the enemies around you are actively attacking a tenno and/or alerted none of them get affected. 

What i would do for each ability's augment; 

Shuriken: Strips armor. 

Stealth Ability: Allows you to see the area enemies can "spot you." 

Teleport/Disguise: Keep the same/Use the enemies weapon instead of yours until disguise is broken. 

Shadow Clones: Enemies that survive the damage receive half of what the damage was in the form of Slash and/or Bleed status (unless immune). 

i'm not sure which ability, should everyone like my proposed changes, should be the subsumable ability as this change will make Shuriken useful. 

[D-Shear]

Honestly, they just need to fix Bladestorm. Casting and execution of the shadows need to be instant and attacks need to be performed simultaneously. Right now, it has the damage potential, but is just far too slow and clunky to replace shooting your guns or just simply melee.

We are still talking about a permanent invisible frame, which are already VERY problematic balancing wise, due to the stealth mechanics in general. For all that his kit is already extremely strong with a full strip and a crit modifier. 

[Bioskop]

@MageSkeleton

1. Good idea. I'll add that.

2. I like it, but two abilities in one is a bit much. They streamlined Hydroids abilities that worked like that. I think I'll add it as a passive and an alternative to the stealth changes.

3. Interesting for a stealth mode, but we do not have pure stealth modes. It sounds prone to crossfire.

4. In theme, but I like the current changes in the post more.

Augments:

1. Armor strip for a Slash themed Warframe seems counterintuitive. Even with your changes I don't think we have many worse methods to armor strip.
2. In a 3D parkour game that is hardly doable.
3. In a pure stealth mode that would be pretty good. If we could do Narmer missions like that...
4. That is a pure damage buff. Might as well make the base ability more reactive to power strength. As an augment I do not think it fits.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Bioskop
Augments

[Bioskop]

On 2023-10-23 at 4:35 PM, Bioskop said:

[Traumtulpe] Make the Smoke Screen recastable (while it's active)

• Would help the use of the Augment for Team Buffs
• OR Smoke Screen leaves a smoke screen on cast
  • Enemies react as if everyone is invisible
  • Enemies continue running where they were headed until they exit smoke screen

 

Changelog