A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[Cryp2Nite]

And this isn't the end of the thread, Mods are crap. Plain and simple.

 

The beauty of simplicity. +1

[theGreatZamboni]

 

-

 

 

Good art is good business, it's just not always the easiest. They do they bare minimum and reap the highest rewards, I understand. The point being, if you intend to make a service product that is both artistically satisfactory and monetarily, you will see long term gains. Games like Tribes: Ascend started out that way (artistically satisfactory and monetarily) and tanked quickly. Hi-Rez made their money but pissed off fans. When you sell someone something or make something for someone, then it sucks or you betray them after they put their trust in you, you not only kill your product but potential future customers.

[ShadowCore67]

Yea he got "rekt'd" because Steve's first response was to call it "bullS#&$"...

 

Yup, that's the definition of rekt'd (sarcasm)

 

Lol this community is really whack;

 

1. people have known since this thread had been out that both the mod system is broken as hell and that 60% of the mods are useless; then

2. when Steve calls the reworking of a broken system "bullS#&$," everyone agrees with him simply because they are stupid and he's a DEV, and forget all the support and effort that this thread has

 

And this isn't the end of the thread, Mods are crap. Plain and simple.

 

How do you think that people are just jumping on board with Steve because he's a dev?

 

I think that scraping the mod system would be stupid, and I thought this before this devstream. Now I'm not saying the system is perfect, it does need worked on. But by no means does it need to be scrapped for a skill tree (oh how original is that) and weapon attachments (this isn't CoD).

 

Mods aren't crap, they just need worked on.

Edited July 4, 2014 by ShadowCore67

[SquirmyBurrito]

The problem was he didn't even explain his response, he said (and I roughly quote) that this thread and the OP's suggestion was "bullS#&$" (not even necessary to say the least) and that the whole point of this game is to grind to power up mods, which only some of those are useful, and it'll take you months just to make them effective. He even admits that the game is based on the randomnees of mods to drop, and has NOTHING TO DO with skill, honour, balance, or any of that S#&$ they advertise the game is about.

Also, I HIGHLY doubt he actually read through all of this, 'cus as we know only a few of the devs actually read the forums and try to respond or anything.

1. That was the worst summary I have ever read. Please go re-watch that part of the stream.

1.5. He didn't actually say most of that.

2. You doubt he read through OP's post (as that's the only post that really matters, the other 1k+ posts aren't important)? Why? He and Scott have both been seen monitoring threads. Quite a few of the big devs, and many of the smaller ones read through the forums. They don't have to post in a thread to read it.

Please excuse any flaws in punctuation (or the lack thereof during sheldon's parts).

Rebecca: "The basic statements are the current mod card system is not a sustainable one, meaning you can not continually release mods and use them as a crutch for content. The corrupted mods were already scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of ideas.

Steve: "He's not going to like my answer."

Scott: "He's PM'd me this several times and I've given him answers to this several times."

Rebecca and Steve get interrupted a few times

Rebecca: "Right but the base issue is... the core problem-"

Steve: "This new content is a crutch for new content."

Rebecca: "But, having three hundred warframes, thousand weapons, the issue is the mod card system."

Steve: "I see"

Rebecca: "The effectiveness of your warframe and weapon are not tied to your skill or interaction with said items, but to the mods you've equipped. The game becomes one of drops. You play to max serration, redirection, focus, and primed chamber."

Steve: " 'kay"

Rebecca: "So this is the fundamental point being made with different examples of how skill can play into this as opposed to a game of drops-"

Steve: "Right"

Rebecca: "How utility is taking the place of a redirection mod in terms of slot space-"

Steve: "Right"

Rebecca: "and real estate and essentially what you think the mod card system is capable of doing for longevity of the game-"

Steve: "Right"

Rebecca: "-and if there are plans to potentially revisit the base progression system which is currently mods."

Sheldon: "Well-well yes, right? Because isn't that what we're doing with the- with the different tiers of mods there's like basically you're gonna gradually-"

Steve: "Yup"

Sheldon: "-you know you're gonna have a graduated approach to which mods you're using so your um serration will have like a beginning serration, and a middle serration, and an end serration-"

Rebecca: "Okay"

Sheldon: "-so there's some of that that we're dealing with um just from a new player's perspective that's gonna be great."

Rebecca: "Right"

Sheldon: "Um... so there's that"

Rebecca: "Yeah it is a tough question, and I know, but I think the like we used to have skill trees, right? Like you played-"

Steve: "I'm sorry, it's not a tough question. There's a lot of bullS#&$ in there actually."

Rebecca: "You're allowed to say that, you're the dev."

Steve: "I think it's laughable to say that we'd have a game about progression where the-the things that you acquire through progression have no bearing on the outcome."

Rebecca: "Right"

Steve: "It's ridiculous. And to say that-that the mod system nullifies all skill in the game... Are you kidding me? It's-It's ridiculous and it since the seventies roleplaying games existed obviously there's an intersection between the value of the objects you acquire and your ability to use them in the right situations-"

Rebecca: "Certainly"

Steve: "-and the variety in the builds that you can get in warframe tell me that there's skill not only at the play level-"

Rebecca: "Right"

Steve: "-but at the design of your build level."

Rebecca: "Right"

Steve: "There's-and the mod system, it's-it's like making any rule you want. It's breaking the rules of the game-"

Rebecca: "Right"

Steve: "-it's extending."

Rebecca: "I think, like when you think-"

Steve: "To say that we're scraping the bottom of the barrel those ideas, is ludicrous."

Others agree

Steve: "That's like saying we scrape the bottom of the barrel for ideas for warframes, false."

Rebecca: "Right"

Steve: "We're just getting started."

Rebecca: "Right"

Steve: "There are years of ideas we have in backlog and it's merely our ability to make them-"

Rebecca: "Right"

Steve: "-fast enough is the only thing that's holding us back."

Rebecca: "Right"

Steve: "So.."

Rebecca: "I think when you speak to corrupted mods, how do you get them?"

Steve: "I don't know what his frustration is. Maybe it's the same stuff we've been talking about over and over and over again which is-"

Rebecca: "Definitely"

Steve: "-yes you need those bare essential mods-"

Rebecca: "Yep"

Sheldon?: "Yeah"

Steve: "-true. U14 I think will address that issue for him"

Sheldon: "Yeah"

Steve: "But I take exception to all that. It's not a hard question because there's a lot of false assertions in there."

Rebecca: "Certainly, I think the base fundamental point is that our players are looking for something that we might not have in the game and that we don't plan on putting in the game."

Steve: "Okay. Yep."

Rebecca: "I suppose, and I suppose there is a generally kind of base... People think the mod system is flawed and maybe not like it, but we think we can work with it and continue to have people playing the game with modsw with customization, with slots..."

Steve: "I suppose, I mean what have I seen? I-I've seen uh the path of exile system which is that tree of nightmare with like ten thousand possibilities"

Rebecca: "Right"

Steve: "Yeah, we could do that, but the mods are what give warframe its depth... and it's different from those other games where you unlock a tree."

Rebecca: "Right, it's just different."

Steve: "So... it's different and the combinatorial possibilities of this I mean we went through this in update 7-"

Rebecca: (not sure what she says here sounds like stormbringer)

Steve: "-the combinatorial- yeah, the combinatorial possibilities uh in a none tree system where you use energy balance and slot balance is orders of magnitude higher than any tree system."

Rebecca: "Right"

Steve: "So..."

Rebecca: "I suppose the frustration may be and, for some players is what more mods can we make? Because every stream we talk about bandaid mods like handspring or warm coat is useless and this status chance mod is-"

Steve: "But they focus... okay, I agree those are bandaid mods, but that's really few and far between."

Rebecca: "Sure"

Steve: "The real exciting that we've done with mods lately is add trade offs."

Rebecca: "Right"

Steve: "Right. We're looking at channeling, increasing channeling efficiency or increasing the efficacy of channeling so I think there's a lot more interesting trade-offs to make in those systems. Um yeah I totally disagree that we scrape the bottom of the barrel there."

Rebecca: "Alright, well, you're allowed to disagree. Cool. Someone's saying I love the what I love what you have. I love that I can switch out mods to make the layout I want. Mods made the game more balanced than the tree system in closed beta."

Scott: "I think that it's... yeah, you just go into the forums and try to find out what's the best build for anything and it's a giant thread of people comparing and contrasting. It's like no you should have this, you should have that. There's definitely common mods that are probably maybe way too common and are the ones that people will say you have to have."

Steve: "The biggest flaw, I think, that we've talked about in the mod system is a lack of trade-off with power return. So you you max out a mod but there's no downside to doing that so you're not making any trade-offs. You're simply making trade-offs in capacity. Uh if I could travel back in time I might change that. But like the corrupted mods uh or like we did with the channeling stances those are things that I think we can kinda work on over time."

Rebecca: "I've never seen so much mod love in one thread in my life right now."

Steve: "Right"

Rebecca: "There you go"

Steve: "Yeah"

?: "Yeah"

?: "Yeah"

?: "Yeah"

Rebecca: "That was an answer

Edited July 4, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Zarfilg]

Good art is good business, it's just not always the easiest. They do they bare minimum and reap the highest rewards, I understand. The point being, if you intend to make a service product that is both artistically satisfactory and monetarily, you will see long term gains. Games like Tribes: Ascend started out that way (artistically satisfactory and monetarily) and tanked quickly. Hi-Rez made their money but &!$$ed off fans. When you sell someone something or make something for someone, then it sucks or you betray them after they put their trust in you, you not only kill your product but potential future customers.

 

I agree, and I as stated it is possible they might have started with a lot of sincerity. You cannot deny that these fly by night shallow models of any kind of business are successful all be it not as the real mackoy (which is VERY HARD to do, much harder than this sort of thing and requires a lot of luck and timing). I think De simply arrived at a feasibility/cost/benefit analysis threshold some time ago and decided this is the best course of action.

 

Expect more of the same until it crashes and burns or gets sold.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

1. That was the worst summary I have ever read. Please go re-watch that part of the stream.

1.5. He didn't actually say most of that.

2. You doubt he read through OP's post (as that's the only post that really matters, the other 1k+ posts aren't important)? Why? He and Scott have both been seen monitoring threads. Quite a few of the big devs, and many of the smaller ones read through the forums. They don't have to post in a thread to read it.

 

Please excuse any flaws in punctuation (or the lack thereof during sheldon's parts).

Rebecca: "The basic statements are the current mod card system is not a sustainable one, meaning you can not continually release mods and use them as a crutch for content. The corrupted mods were already scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of ideas.

 

Steve: "He's not going to like my answer."

Scott: "He's PM'd me this several times and I've given him answers to this several times."

 

Rebecca and Steve get interrupted a few times

Rebecca: "Right but the base issue is... the core problem-"

Steve: "This new content is a crutch for new content."

 

Rebecca: "But, having three hundred warframes, thousand weapons, the issue is the mod card system."

 

Steve: "I see"

 

Rebecca: "The effectiveness of your warframe and weapon are not tied to your skill or interaction with said items, but to the mods you've equipped. The game becomes one of drops. You play to max serration, redirection, focus, and primed chamber."

Steve: " 'kay"

 

Rebecca: "So this is the fundamental point being made with different examples of how skill can play into this as opposed to a game of drops-"

 

Steve: "Right"

Rebecca: "How utility is taking the place of a redirection mod in terms of slot space-"

Steve: "Right"

 

Rebecca: "and real estate and essentially what you think the mod card system is capable of doing for longevity of the game-"

Steve: "Right"

Rebecca: "-and if there are plans to potentially revisit the base progression system which is currently mods."

Sheldon: "Well-well yes, right? Because isn't that what we're doing with the- with the different tiers of mods there's like basically you're gonna gradually-"

Steve: "Yup"

Sheldon: "-you know you're gonna have a graduated approach to which mods you're using so your um serration will have like a beginning serration, and a middle serration, and an end serration-"

 

Rebecca: "Okay"

 

Sheldon: "-so there's some of that that we're dealing with um just from a new player's perspective that's gonna be great."

 

Rebecca: "Right"

 

Sheldon: "Um... so there's that"

 

Rebecca: "Yeah it is a tough question, and I know, but I think the like we used to have skill trees, right? Like you played-"

 

Steve: "I'm sorry, it's not a tough question, there's a lot of bullS#&$ in there actually."

 

Rebecca: "You're allowed to say that, you're the dev."

 

Steve: "I think it's laughable to say that we'd have a game about progression where the-the things that you acquire through progression have no bearing on the outcome."

 

Rebecca: "Right"

 

Steve: "It's ridiculous. And to say that-that the mod system nullifies all skill in the game... Are you kidding me? It's-It's ridiculous and it since the seventies roleplaying games existed obviously there's an intersection between the value of the objects you acquire and your ability to use them in the right situations-"

 

Rebecca: "Certainly"

Steve: "-and the variety in the builds that you can get in warframe tell me that there's skill not only at the play level-"

 

Rebecca: "Right"

 

Steve: "-but at the design of your build level."

 

Rebecca: "Right"

 

Steve: "There's-and the mod system, it's-it's like making any rule you want. It's breaking the rules of the game-"

 

Rebecca: "Right"

 

Steve: "-it's extending."

 

Rebecca: "I think, like when you think-"

 

Steve: "To say that we're scraping the bottom of the barrel those ideas, is ludicrous."

 

Others agree

 

Steve: "That's like saying we scrape the bottom of the barrel for ideas for warframes, false."

 

Rebecca: "Right"

 

Steve: "We're just getting started."

 

Rebecca: "Right"

 

Steve: "There are years of ideas we have in backlog and it's merely our ability to make them-"

 

Rebecca: "Right"

 

Steve: "-fast enough is the only thing that's holding us back."

 

Rebecca: "Right"

 

Steve: "So.."

 

Rebecca: "I think when you speak to corrputed mods, how do you get them?"

 

Steve: "I don't know what his frustration is. Maybe it's the same stuff we've been talking about over and over and over again which is-"

 

Rebecca: "Definitely"

 

Steve: "-yes you need those bare essential mods-"

 

Rebecca: "Yep"

 

Sheldon?: "Yeah"

 

Steve: "-true. U14 I think will address that issue for him"

 

Sheldon: "Yeah"

 

Steve: "But I take exception to all that. It's not a hard question because there's a lot of false assertions in there."

 

Rebecca: "Certainly, I think the base fundamental point is that our players are looking for something that we might not have in the game and that we don't plan on putting in the game."

 

Steve: "Okay. Yep."

 

Rebecca: "I suppose, and I suppose there is a generally kind of base... People think the mod system is flawed and maybe not like it, but we think we can work with it and continue to have people playing the game with modsw with customization, with slots..."

 

Steve: "I suppose, I mean what have I seen? I-I've seen uh the path of exile system which is that tree of nightmare with like ten thousand possibilities" 

 

Rebecca: "Right"

 

Steve: "Yeah, we could do that, but the mods are what give warframe its depth... and it's different from those other games where you unlock a tree."

 

Rebecca: "Right, it's just different." 

 

Steve: "So... it's different and the combinatorial possibilities of this I mean we went through this in update 7-"

 

Rebecca: (not sure what she says here sounds like stormbringer)

 

Steve: "-the combinatorial- yeah, the combinatorial possibilities uh in a none tree system where you use energy balance and slot balance is orders of magnitude higher than any tree system."

 

Rebecca: "Right" 

 

Steve: "So..." 

 

Rebecca: "I suppose the frustration may be and, for some players is what more mods can we make? Because every stream we talk about bandaid mods like handspring or warm coat is useless and this status chance mod is-"

 

Steve: "But they focus... okay, I agree those are bandaid mods, but that's really few and far between."

 

Rebecca: "Sure"

 

Steve: "The real exciting that we've done with mods lately is add trade offs."

 

Rebecca: "Right"

 

Steve: "Right. We're looking at channeling, increasing channeling efficiency or increasing the efficacy of channeling so I think there's a lot more interesting trade-offs to make in those systems. Um yeah I totally disagree that we scrape the bottom of the barrel there."

 

Rebecca: "Alright, well, you're allowed to disagree. Cool. Someone's saying I love the what I love what you have. I love that I can switch out mods to make the layout I want. Mods made the game more balanced than the tree system in closed beta."

 

Scott: "I think that it's... yeah, you just go into the forums and try to find out what's the best build for anything and it's a giant thread of people comparing and contrasting. It's like no you should have this, you should have that. There's definitely common mods that are probably maybe way too common and are the ones that people will say you have to have."

 

Steve: "The biggest flaw, I think, that we've talked about in the mod system is a lack of trade-off with power return. So you you max out a mod but there's no downside to doing that so you're not making any trade-offs. You're simply making trade-offs in capacity. Uh if I could travel back in time I might change that. But like the corrupted mods uh or like we did with the channeling stances those are things that I think we can kinda work on over time."

 

Rebecca: "I've never seen so much mod love in one thread in my life right now."

 

Steve: "Right"

 

Rebecca: "There you go"

 

Steve: "Yeah"

 

?: "Yeah"

 

?: "Yeah"

 

?: "Yeah"

 

Rebecca: "That was an answer

 

 

Steve: "It's ridiculous. And to say that-that the mod system nullifies all skill in the game... Are you kidding me? It's-It's ridiculous and it since the seventies roleplaying games existed obviously there's an intersection between the value of the objects you acquire and your ability to use them in the right situations-"

 

The problem with his logic here is that mods (with a couple of exceptions) are all passive effects. (not ability mods, like fireball, but mod mods like heavy impact). There is no need to know when to use hellfire, if it's on your weapon, it's always active.

 

Or if he's talking about knowing when to switch mods out, that's also not very good reasoning from steve, the only time weapon mods really get changed are if you plan to fight corpus/infested/grineer and want to get more damage vs them, or if you want a certain proc. Even then, you'll never really see the proc's effect unless you either heavily gimp yourself, or go to extremely high level survival/defenses.

 

The difference with D&D (i.e.) is that some items have active effects you can only activate every so often, and you have a wide array of abilities. However the items don't give you skill, they come because you have skill (and luck) to acquire said items, which I don't think Steve really thought through completely.

 

My point: There's no skill in correctly modding a weapon. You learn what enemies are weak to, you acquire the right elemental mods, you slot them into your weapon. And D&D loot comes from your skill (and luck) to beat the tougher enemies and acquire the loot.

Edited July 4, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[SquirmyBurrito]

 

Did you not read what that person said? "Number-crunchers will quickly figure out the optimal way to build any Warframe or weapon and everyone will use those builds because they are the best/easiest to use. Then we are back at square one. The issue is the same in the mod system." 

 

So what? It's still better than the current one.

 

To make trees worth using would require a TON of effort, that same effort could be better spent just reworking the mod system.

 

Making a GOOD game does require a ton of effort. And the game is still Beta, isn't it. So there have to be changes.

 

Saying "it sucks @$$" is not the way you go about getting what you want.

 

Tell that to Steve.

 

 

Please do not respond by posting your answers within quotes. It makes it tough to tell (at first glance) whether or not you're responding to me or just quoting me.

 

Prove a tree is better than what we have. Especially when it could be just as bad as what we currently have.

 

Making a good game doesn't require that a ton of effort be put towards scrapping what we have and making something new when what we currently have is still salvageable.

 

Steve didn't just say 'it sucks @$$' and leave it at that. His answer was actually incredibly long.

 

Yea he got "rekt'd" because Steve's first response was to call it "bullS#&$"...

 

Yup, that's the definition of rekt'd (sarcasm)

 

Lol this community is really whack;

 

1. people have known since this thread had been out that both the mod system is broken as hell and that 60% of the mods are useless; then

2. when Steve calls the reworking of a broken system "bullS#&$," everyone agrees with him simply because they are stupid and he's a DEV, and forget all the support and effort that this thread has

 

And this isn't the end of the thread, Mods are crap. Plain and simple.

 

Steve's first response was actually "He's not going to like my answer". 

 

1. No, some people agreed with OP, others didn't.

2. The warframe community is not the kind of community that simply agrees with someone because they're a dev. There have been numerous cases where the community was overwhelmingly against an idea regardless of the fact that it had been put forth by a dev (i.e- stamina rework). You're assuming you're correct and arguing from that point. You don't seem to be considering that you are wrong or that this question isn't so simple as to have a right or wrong answer.

 

That's your opinion, plain and simple.

[DSpite]

I'm going to dumb this down as much as possible first, then say more:

---

I don't see why it would be necessary to rework the existing system, to such an extent.

 

Practically any team game that involves a lot of hectic shooting involves the following basic set of events:

 

A) Team has to deal with a lot of spammed, simple to kill units, that are only a danger if allowed to build up in numbers.

B) Special units arrive on the field that need player co-ordination to deal with, before moving back to A)

C) Some scripted events are able to take place like a mini-boss, or an end-of-level scene that has to be deal with.

 

I mean, this scenes are practically a staple in most action movies and TV series, it's very cliche.

 

As far as player Frames, setting them up and min-maxing is a game in itself, in order to get your abilities to create tanks or glass cannons, or fast ability spammers and everything in between. I see a problem with cards like Serration in the sense they have no downside. In a card system you would expect every card that can have 10 points to require reasons to be maxed, and also reasons to keep at lower levels, like Heavy Caliber for example.

 

On that note, games like Global Agenda and Borderlands have simple systems, and the balance in combat is kept in equilibrium with the enemies you had to face. You are addressing the whole mechanics of the mods and weapon systems, when technically, the only issue I see is the current scenarios that we are taking them into, that being the missions.

 

Weapons that are considered OP like Boltor P or Soma are only this way because of extensive ammo drops and Ammo Mutators. If Personal ammo restores were needed, and only limited ones could be carried, do you really think players would still just hold down the trigger?

 

Mods like Serration and Split Chamber are only such a staple mod on guns because the only missions we are given are ones that need us to pump as much lead as possible down straight lines to stop 30+ enemy clusters getting to us. Look at a Penta for instance, if you are given levels where the side effect of you possibly blowing yourself up are basically nullified, of course you will bring one along, still think you would do that if you knew you'd be fighting in a maze like sewer?

 

When it comes to general mobs, the only one that can't be eliminated the second it appears on the field that I can recall is the one with a frost shield, Every other single one, including prosecutors (correct element), can be killed at any range, instantly, by a decent dps weapon. Both GA and BL have many enemy mobs that require a modicum of preparation before approaching, we don't really have that here. In Warframe the mobs are much more like waves in say, Dungeon Defenders, where the quantity is far more dangerous then the quality, and that is where I see the main problem in what players refer as missions having no real challenge.

 

If a player was given a particularly complex Mastery Test to do, they would customize their weapons totally different. They might decide that the best thing would be to remove recoil completely, have a larger mag to last a whole cluster of targets before reloads, and maybe a speed reload mod to also mitigate that time, with possibly a zoom mod to deal with distant targets, with only a single damage enhancing mod, because those targets don't have high shields/health. This might be rounded off with a high damage shotgun pistol to deal with known swooping enemies that are also known to be on the level, rounding off the primary/secondary set.

 

We don't need more complexity in frame abilities, masteries, or combat abilities, we need reasons to make every thing we have viable, other then simply a focus on DPS builds. With friends, I often use the expression that in a game, we need to get the balance in the rock-paper-scissor equation, because if we keep getting scissors thrown at us, we will just spam rock.

 

Even assuming that the Devs approved all your ideas and placed them in games, and guns became more balanced and melee became more complex and detailed, we would just require 10 burst from a gun rather then 5 before moving to the next cluster, and still would have no extra tactical decisions to make in combat, and that is really what I am after, having a team that constantly has to assess threats to a level that involves more then knowing how many rounds to pump into it before it drops.

 

Try Frap'ping a team running the average mission, and then try flickering the lights a few times, and see the sudden change in player behavior. Warframe needs more of that, a lot more.

[5Billion]

How do you think that people are just jumping on board with Steve because he's a dev?

 

I think that scraping the mod system would be stupid, and I thought this before this devstream. Now I'm not saying the system is perfect, it does need worked on. But by no means does it need to be scrapped for a skill tree (oh how original is that) and weapon attachments (this isn't CoD).

 

Mods aren't crap, they just need worked on.

Dude did you see the twitch chat? People were like "tell em Steve," "you the man steve," "i agree 100% with you Steve," "omg i love steve," etc etc...

 

People wouldn't have been saying that if he wasnt a DEV, just look at the overwhelming amount of positive feedback this thread has gotten.

People in the forums and in-game are tired of the mod system, it's lackluster and could use either a revamp and buff so that each mod is important to the game, or an overhaul, like I said earlier. Maybe [DE]Steve doesnt want an entire revamp, but he coulda just said that instead of calling this well-thought-out thread bullS#&$.

[SquirmyBurrito]

 

Did you not read what that person said? "Number-crunchers will quickly figure out the optimal way to build any Warframe or weapon and everyone will use those builds because they are the best/easiest to use. Then we are back at square one. The issue is the same in the mod system." 

 

So what? It's still better than the current one.

 

To make trees worth using would require a TON of effort, that same effort could be better spent just reworking the mod system.

 

Making a GOOD game does require a ton of effort. And the game is still Beta, isn't it. So there have to be changes.

 

Saying "it sucks @$$" is not the way you go about getting what you want.

 

Tell that to Steve.

 

 

Please do not respond by posting your answers within quotes. It makes it tough to tell (at first glance) whether or not you're responding to me or just quoting me.

 

Prove a tree is better than what we have. Especially when it could be just as bad as what we currently have.

 

Making a good game doesn't require that a ton of effort be put towards scrapping what we have and making something new when what we currently have is still salvageable.

 

Steve didn't just say 'it sucks @$$' and leave it at that. His answer was actually incredibly long.

 

Yea he got "rekt'd" because Steve's first response was to call it "bullS#&$"...

 

Yup, that's the definition of rekt'd (sarcasm)

 

Lol this community is really whack;

 

1. people have known since this thread had been out that both the mod system is broken as hell and that 60% of the mods are useless; then

2. when Steve calls the reworking of a broken system "bullS#&$," everyone agrees with him simply because they are stupid and he's a DEV, and forget all the support and effort that this thread has

 

And this isn't the end of the thread, Mods are crap. Plain and simple.

 

Steve's first response was actually "He's not going to like my answer". 

 

1. No, some people agreed with OP, others didn't.

2. The warframe community is not the kind of community that simply agrees with someone because they're a dev. There have been numerous cases where the community was overwhelmingly against an idea regardless of the fact that it had been put forth by a dev (i.e- stamina rework). You're assuming you're correct and arguing from that point. You don't seem to be considering that you are wrong or that this question isn't so simple as to have a right or wrong answer.

 

That's your opinion, plain and simple.

 

My point: There's no skill in correctly modding a weapon. You learn what enemies are weak to, you acquire the right elemental mods, you slot them into your weapon. And D&D loot comes from your skill (and luck) to beat the tougher enemies and acquire the loot.

 

While I agree that his response wasn't the most well thought out response (probably because he responded on the spot rather than reading a pre-made speech), I don't think that it is quite correct to say there is no skill in modding a weapon. Learning what enemies are weak against and being able to apply that is a skill. It just isn't one that requires a ton of work to acquire.

[Chupacabra]

The problem with his logic here is that mods (with a couple of exceptions) are all passive effects. (not ability mods, like fireball, but mod mods like heavy impact). There is no need to know when to use hellfire, if it's on your weapon, it's always active.

 

Or if he's talking about knowing when to switch mods out, that's also not very good reasoning from steve, the only time weapon mods really get changed are if you plan to fight corpus/infested/grineer and want to get more damage vs them, or if you want a certain proc. Even then, you'll never really see the proc's effect unless you either heavily gimp yourself, or go to extremely high level survival/defenses.

 

The difference with D&D (i.e.) is that some items have active effects you can only activate every so often, and you have a wide array of abilities. However the items don't give you skill, they come because you have skill (and luck) to acquire said items, which I don't think Steve really thought through completely.

 

My point: There's no skill in correctly modding a weapon. You learn what enemies are weak to, you acquire the right elemental mods, you slot them into your weapon. And D&D loot comes from your skill (and luck) to beat the tougher enemies and acquire the loot.

 

I'd like to add on to what you've mentioned that there are two very different discussions here, there's warframe modding and weapon modding. And I'd argue that both are lacking, but especially weapon modding is lacking. There may be N'th number of mod combinations, but especially for weapons, N'th-minus 2 or 3 of those are false choices with a little math. There are what, 2/3 real builds? Elemental +base damage, Crit, elemental+status?

 

As for warframes go, I have very mixed feelings. 

[nefrai]

I hadn't seen this thread until now (Not sure how I missed this, lol), and just going over the initial post/ideas by Zamboni.

 

While I think Zamboni had good ideas, something else DE could consider - if they want to keep the mods, they could use Zamboni's idea of having the separate sections ( systems, powers, utility), but you can only use particular mods in each section. That makes it so you can't just use all your powerful mods in all the slots like we can right now (outside the Aura slot), and you have reason to actually use mods like laser/fire resist.

 

I liked to original nodes a year ago, and I'm ok with mods now - but it would be nice to see the mods re-structured, so I have reason to use the 'fun but less useful' mods.

Edited July 4, 2014 by nefrai

[5Billion]

Steve's first response was actually "He's not going to like my answer". 

 

1. No, some people agreed with OP, others didn't.

2. The warframe community is not the kind of community that simply agrees with someone because they're a dev. There have been numerous cases where the community was overwhelmingly against an idea regardless of the fact that it had been put forth by a dev (i.e- stamina rework). You're assuming you're correct and arguing from that point. You don't seem to be considering that you are wrong or that this question isn't so simple as to have a right or wrong answer.

 

That's your opinion, plain and simple.

Dude, Sqiurmy or whatever your name is, im not assuming im right, and if you could provide a direct example of how the community doesnt automatically agree with the Devs because theyre Devs then please quote it. 

 

Alot of people think the existing mod system needs to be reworked, and alot think it doesnt. Im saying that ppl in my clan and alliance, and the forums, have agreed that it could use alot of rework, and for Steve to come out and say a well-thought-out fix to the mod system is bullS#&$ really deteriorates the community's respect for him. AS SOON AS i heard him say BS, I found the thread and I AGREED WITH AN OVERHAUL.

 

Secondly, anyone who has an argument obviously thinks theyre right, so why do you even have to say that... obviously Steve thinks we dont need the mod system needs a rework but he didnt give much reasoning to back it up. 

 

I do consider your opinion as well, and so does the OP; we're all here to listen to each other, not strangle each other. But the problem is....

...

...

.

....

is DE listening?

[5Billion]

I'd like to add on to what you've mentioned that there are two very different discussions here, there's warframe modding and weapon modding. And I'd argue that both are lacking, but especially weapon modding is lacking. There may be N'th number of mod combinations, but especially for weapons, N'th-minus 2 or 3 of those are false choices with a little math. There are what, 2/3 real builds? Elemental +base damage, Crit, elemental+status?

 

As for warframes go, I have very mixed feelings. 

See? this is another piece of evidence i was gonna use earlier, but thanks for saying it

 

weapons can only be modded for so many things, either crit, elemental, status, dmg, or a combination of those.

 

and most of the time elemental mods are just thrown down and ppl dont even consider crit or status because the % are too low

 

AND most of the dmg mods are elemental mods too, so mods like finishing touch, parry, the channeling mods, the smite mods, and reach arent used.SURE they are used but for specific weapons, like reach on Serro or life strike on Ichors.

 

and thats just weapons alone, look at all the mods not being used for frames, too many to list

[SquirmyBurrito]

Dude did you see the twitch chat? People were like "tell em Steve," "you the man steve," "i agree 100% with you Steve," "omg i love steve," etc etc...

 

People wouldn't have been saying that if he wasnt a DEV, just look at the overwhelming amount of positive feedback this thread has gotten.

People in the forums and in-game are tired of the mod system, it's lackluster and could use either a revamp and buff so that each mod is important to the game, or an overhaul, like I said earlier. Maybe [DE]Steve doesnt want an entire revamp, but he coulda just said that instead of calling this well-thought-out thread bullS#&$.

 

How do you know they didn't just actually agree with steve? Again, you're assuming they were siding with him purely because he's a dev but you have nothing to back that assumption. You try to use this thread's contents to back it, but the issue with that is that OP's suggestions have received mixed reviews. You're also trying to just claim people are on your side, yet I see nothing to support that claim.

 

Dude, Sqiurmy or whatever your name is, im not assuming im right, and if you could provide a direct example of how the community doesnt automatically agree with the Devs because theyre Devs then please quote it. 

 

Alot of people think the existing mod system needs to be reworked, and alot think it doesnt. Im saying that ppl in my clan and alliance, and the forums, have agreed that it could use alot of rework, and for Steve to come out and say a well-thought-out fix to the mod system is bullS#&$ really deteriorates the community's respect for him. AS SOON AS i heard him say BS, I found the thread and I AGREED WITH AN OVERHAUL.

 

Secondly, anyone who has an argument obviously thinks theyre right, so why do you even have to say that... obviously Steve thinks we dont need the mod system needs a rework but he didnt give much reasoning to back it up. 

 

I do consider your opinion as well, and so does the OP; we're all here to listen to each other, not strangle each other. But the problem is....

...

...

.

....

is DE listening?

 

My name is clearly written. Yes, you are. Look at the response to the stamina change that happened a while back. It received a ton of hate. Sheldon's idea to spread rewards into T4 to help alleviate some of the grind for those items was met with tons of hate. I need not quote what anyone who has been here for a while should know.

 

People in plenty of clans, alliances, and on the forums have agreed that it doesn't need a rework.... so what's your point? Being 'well thought out' doesn't stop it from being bullS#&$. I could type up a well thought out essay about how scott is secretly a chipmunk who is using magic to appear human. That doesn't stop it from being utter bullS#&$.

 

There is a difference between thinking you're right, and posting as if you KNOW you are right and refuse to think otherwise. You are the latter. If you think he didn't give much reasoning, you clearly didn't pay attention to his response.

 

DE is listening. Had they not been listening, scott wouldn't have said he's responded to PMs, and Rebecca wouldn't have even brought up the thread.

[SquirmyBurrito]

See? this is another piece of evidence i was gonna use earlier, but thanks for saying it

 

weapons can only be modded for so many things, either crit, elemental, status, dmg, or a combination of those.

 

and most of the time elemental mods are just thrown down and ppl dont even consider crit or status because the % are too low

 

AND most of the dmg mods are elemental mods too, so mods like finishing touch, parry, the channeling mods, the smite mods, and reach arent used.SURE they are used but for specific weapons, like reach on Serro or life strike on Ichors.

 

and thats just weapons alone, look at all the mods not being used for frames, too many to list

 

You not considering any of the other potential builds/mods worth using, doesn't mean you can't use them.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

You not considering any of the other potential builds/mods worth using, doesn't mean you can't use them.

True, but it still doesn't mean they're worth using. The majority of players won't slot fast hands if they have a choice, simply because the returns it gives compared to another damage mod is very little.

[(PSN)ELIT3_EXP3RT-01]

After reading this post, it was a good showing insight on the current progression system. My understanding is that YES I get that damage mods in general could us a rework. Do we really need a rebuilt system overhaul, no. Take Borderlands 2, Destiny and even Final Fantasy 14 that skill trees or advanced complex rank systems work, however they are slower paced games with alot less combat focused areas so it varies and I dont think it is necessary to focus on that area.

 

If it did happen the company, developers and players would not only adapt to this change, but find more flaws we never anticipated even at this point. Its better of to put OPs System on say Armors or Helmets then replacing current mod system IMO.

 

Forgive me as I'm not the OP, but from what I've understood the argument made in this thread is that the existence of some builds outright nullify others because they're competing for the same modspace. What's being proposed is to create different sub mod systems that allow further customization without that compettion. Warmcoat should never compete with intensify for example (I think). This would allow false choices in one area to not hold baring to the balance in others.

 

Also please note that while tree's is mentioned, if I'm understanding this correctly, it is the implementation of smaller more focused, more relevant trees that we want. We don't want one giant hot mess, we want smaller, more controlled ones/=.

 

There is obviously much more to every subsection but I'm trying to make it clear.

 

EDIT: The best example I can think of in a popular game is in bioshock where we had combat tonics/enginner tonics etc

 

How do you think that people are just jumping on board with Steve because he's a dev?

 

Mods aren't crap, they just need worked on.

 

1. people have known since this thread had been out that both the mod system is broken as hell and that 60% of the mods are useless; then

2. when Steve calls the reworking of a broken system "bullS#&$," everyone agrees with him simply because they are stupid and he's a DEV, and forget all the support and effort that this thread has

 

And this isn't the end of the thread, Mods are crap. Plain and simple.

 

Its not he is a Dev, it is a hybrid MODSkill Tree which in question could be better, could lead to more diverse build, could give MR a larger incentives, ect. Once again it can be strictly complex system and quite radical proposal to DE.

 

@Chupacabra- Damage mods I think is what OP is trying to use to create a more complex, yet more efficent way to use roughly any build. Once again the phrase DESteve used half of it is bull$hiz is taken of context. Reworking Utility mods say Flame Repellent or Marathon, DE can simply fuse all stamina and elemental mods giving a value I would consider replacing Streamline or Redirection. Same applied on weapons add reload speed and ammo capacity into one card slot.

@ShadowCore67- Yes however its decent now. It needs tweaks and reworkings. Possibly the idea of extra mod slots for every 5 MR obtained IMO would provide those extra slots using the utility mods.

@TitNinja- Alot of mods are in a sense useless and maybe Steve got emotional since well, its his creation and this topic makes all of DEs current framework absolete. I guess i am stupid because i side on Steves eh?

 

For the above or anyone interested, go try Destiny beta in two weeks, it works for that type of gain where progression is suited because you have 3 SET CLASSES. Watch my youtube playing the alpha or go into Destiny forums to get a more thorough explanation. Sure you can argue Warframe has a Tank, Healer and Crowd Control(DPS) frames however Rhino, Frost, and Saryn are 3 different tanks altogether. 

 

This topic has good constructive feedback and to the OP, it was a good read and yes I disagree on certain things but you have a point thats detailed and well explained.

Edited July 4, 2014 by (PS4)ELIT3_EXP3RT-01

[5Billion]

How do you know they didn't just actually agree with steve? Again, you're assuming they were siding with him purely because he's a dev but you have nothing to back that assumption. You try to use this thread's contents to back it, but the issue with that is that OP's suggestions have received mixed reviews. You're also trying to just claim people are on your side, yet I see nothing to support that claim.

 

 

My name is clearly written. Yes, you are. Look at the response to the stamina change that happened a while back. It received a ton of hate. Sheldon's idea to spread rewards into T4 to help alleviate some of the grind for those items was met with tons of hate. I need not quote what anyone who has been here for a while should know.

 

People in plenty of clans, alliances, and on the forums have agreed that it doesn't need a rework.... so what's your point? Being 'well thought out' doesn't stop it from being bullS#&$. I could type up a well thought out essay about how scott is secretly a chipmunk who is using magic to appear human. That doesn't stop it from being utter bullS#&$.

 

There is a difference between thinking you're right, and posting as if you KNOW you are right and refuse to think otherwise. You are the latter. If you think he didn't give much reasoning, you clearly didn't pay attention to his response.

 

DE is listening. Had they not been listening, scott wouldn't have said he's responded to PMs, and Rebecca wouldn't have even brought up the thread.

um.. so all those people who said that in the stream don't actually side with Steve? ok... that.. makes sense (sarcasm once again...)

 

and yes this is well put together, it offers everything that could alleviate the current problems of the mod system..

 

do you think it's bullS#&$? or are you just agreeing with Steve? see, thats the thing...

 

this guys suggestioon WAAAY out of DE's reach, the thing is saying Warframe is fine as is isnt going to cut it anymore. they need to take suggestions from the community more, and try to implement them, especially if they see fit. Steve is the only person who actually answered, he doesnt control all of DE, there are other developers on the team.

 

Just cus he doesnt like a revamp doesnt mean it wont happen.

[Nalo1993]

After reading through how this system work (and if I understand it correctly), I would enjoy to see this system implemented into the game.

[SquirmyBurrito]

True, but it still doesn't mean they're worth using. The majority of players won't slot fast hands if they have a choice, simply because the returns it gives compared to another damage mod is very little.

 

I agree. Although I do actually like fast hands on certain weapons.

 

um.. so all those people who said that in the stream don't actually side with Steve? ok... that.. makes sense (sarcasm once again...)

 

and yes this is well put together, it offers everything that could alleviate the current problems of the mod system..

 

do you think it's bullS#&$? or are you just agreeing with Steve? see, thats the thing...

 

this guys suggestioon WAAAY out of DE's reach, the thing is saying Warframe is fine as is isnt going to cut it anymore. they need to take suggestions from the community more, and try to implement them, especially if they see fit. Steve is the only person who actually answered, he doesnt control all of DE, there are other developers on the team.

 

Just cus he doesnt like a revamp doesnt mean it wont happen.

 

Please read what I said. I said they may not have sided with steve JUST because he's a dev. Meaning, they may have actually agreed with what he was saying and sided with him as the result of that agreement. Your use of sarcasm was ill placed and only served to highlight the fact that you didn't actually understand what I typed.

 

I disagree. 

 

I do think it is bullS#&$, and I thought it was bullS#&$ long before Steve said the same thing on the stream I just didn't use that exact phrasing.

 

No they don't. If Steve, the creative director, is strongly against a revamp (and as we saw in the stream many of the others seem to agree with him) I doubt it will happen.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I agree. Although I do actually like fast hands on certain weapons.

It's nice, but it gives too little (30% is almost nothing), and for the cost of the mod, I could simply put more damage on, meaning again, I reload less because my bullets do more damage, meaning I can get more kills per clip, assuming I don't already one shot every enemy.

[LukeAura]

It's nice, but it gives too little (30% is almost nothing), and for the cost of the mod, I could simply put more damage on, meaning again, I reload less because my bullets do more damage, meaning I can get more kills per clip, assuming I don't already one shot every enemy.

....Actually it doesn't even give 30 percent. 

It's more like 23% in truth. 

 

[[DE]Steve]

TheGreatZamboni,

 

I handled this in a very un-Tenno way. No player who shares their ideas and passion about the game (and its flaws) should have their ideas dismissed as I did. I am sorry. I let pride get the better of me. Yes there are flaws in this game, but I love this game and I am proud of it, warts and all. That moment struck a nerve of course, because there are fundamental problems we haven't solved yet. We may not agree on the solutions but we do (and have repeatedly on streams before) admit the flaws you bring to light. I will always respect anyone who is passionate enough about the game to develop alternative solutions and challenge our thinking.

 

-DE_Steve

[FloraGreen]

I hate to ask but why is there no downvote button.

if the weapons gets changed in that way and we get a skill tree system. what about the mods and those who have spend hundred of hours farming and ranking them up. if i know it was getting thrown out, i know many who would quit the game, and i am sure many would hate to see so much work (and plat used in trading) go to waste (and DE would hate to see the modtrading go out of the window, cause someone have to buy the plat to trade for mods to begin with).