Nuke Builds Are Ruining Gameplay Enjoyment

[Merkranire]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But there you have your problem. You think this is about power and killing. I just showed you a list where only a sinlge mode would fit that "issue" since no other mode has a limited amount of enemies where only those enemies are the objective. Disruption has two parts, killing trash to get keys and then destroying demos, you dont have to participate in both to have a fulfilling experience and be part of the mission. As I mentioned when I play defensive missions I dont tend to go out of my way to kill since keeping the target safe is also part of the engagement in the mission. Unless of course I play solo duh, where I'm the only one that can do the killing to make something like Defense progress.

Sure capture has a single kill target. But it isnt about power, it is about considering the objective, which is take out a single enemy fast, while preferably also getting there fast. So if you build for some "tactical" "engaging" experince in that mission type you are doing it wrong quite frankly. Because you cant really build for "tactical" "engaging" trash killing while also building to take down the cap target, since the cap target is just that much more durable and will eventually escape if you dont kill it in time.

Or are you at a point now where you will claim "stealing" when someone happens to play Frost (or Limbo, or Gara etc.) and place a defensive skill on a defense objective since you are now invalidated because you happened to pick Oberon, Wisp or Trinity? Because suddenly the objective wont take damage so your healing that you planned to use will not have any use. That is the "logic" you are using more or less.

edit: Oh and by the way. Which arbitration mission type/enemy did you face with your 3 mod Argonak build?

Mostly trying to see what mental gymnastics he can come up with. It's quite amazing to see how oblivious some people can be to their own place in the world, if he is actually serious with what he says.

Dude, I know what missions entail, better than you because I’m not perpetually overbuilt for the content and thus engage with it on its level and reasonably close to how it’s meant to play out. And there’s a difference between playing within proximity to someone else and playing alongside someone else.

But again, the game’s as simple as you think it is, the choices of what to bring and how to build it as simple as you claim. Your expectations aren’t founded on ignorance, your logic isn’t missing chunks

[darklord122]

6 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Dude, I know what missions entail, better than you because I’m not perpetually overbuilt for the content and thus engage with it on its level and reasonably close to how it’s meant to play out. And there’s a difference between playing within proximity to someone else and playing alongside someone else.

But again, the game’s as simple as you think it is, the choices of what to bring and how to build it as simple as you claim. Your expectations aren’t founded on ignorance, your logic isn’t missing chunks

Building for a missions base level does not = Knowing it better. If anything building past it means more game knowledge as it takes more effort to mod past it rather than just skipping a few mod slots for something at base.

Good job ignoring most of what he said however and didn't even answer one of his questions.

👌

[Merkranire]

4 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Building for a missions base level does not = Knowing it better. If anything building past it means more game knowledge as it takes more effort to mod past it rather than just skipping a few mod slots for something at base.

Good job ignoring most of what he said however and didn't even answer one of his questions.

👌

Not worth explaining things to someone who already knows everything.

Also, I asked you a question. Get on it

[darklord122]

6 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Not worth explaining things to someone who already knows everything.

Also, I asked you a question. Get on it

You asked a question that I already answered and clarified yet you had to ask twice.

So rather than repeating it over and over because you cant retain most of what people say Ill just let you figure it out, But maybe thats a bit much we will just have to see.

So answer his question instead about your Argonak arbitration build with 3 mods unless you where just straight up lying about it.

Or dodge it, Feel free. You've dodged so much in this forum anyway.

Edited February 8 by darklord122

[Merkranire]

2 hours ago, darklord122 said:

You asked a question that I already answered and clarified yet you had to ask twice.

So rather than repeating it over and over because you cant retain most of what people say Ill just let you figure it out, But maybe thats a bit much we will just have to see.

So answer his question instead about your Argonak arbitration build with 3 mods unless you where just straight up lying about it.

Or dodge it, Feel free. You've dodged so much in this forum anyway.

Suit yourself. Pretty sure I remember being kind of blindsided by what I apparently said

You caught me, I lied about a verifiable thing for a weapon I’m pretty sure still claims the “Most used” spot and I know nothing about. One Argonak with a Serration, Hellfire, and Stormbringer, complete with all the spare slots and capacity and loadout choice that comes with that build since you lot seem to conveniently forget that part, has no place in a level 60 Arbitration.

Can I go now? Pretty sure I’ve already made it clear that I gave up.

Or do you want to force me to stick around and play according to your rules

Edited February 8 by Merkranire
formatting

[darklord122]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

Suit yourself.

You caught me, I lied about a verifiable thing. One Argonak with a Serration, Hellfire, and Stormbringer has no place in a level 60 Arbitration.

Can I go now? Pretty sure I’ve already made it clear that I gave up.

Or do you want to force me to stick around and play according to your rules

No-one has forced you to stick around really. Leave when you want.

[Merkranire]

5 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

No-one has forced you to stick around really. Leave when you want.

Bye

edit: 🙄 

Edited February 8 by Merkranire

[darklord122]

3 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Bye

👋

[Merkranire]

4 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

👋

Minor edit to some earlier posts, just so you know

[darklord122]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

Minor edit to some earlier posts, just so you know

Didnt need to know, Ya probably just want the last word. So again
 

👋

[Merkranire]

Just now, darklord122 said:

Didnt need to know, Ya probably just want the last word. So again
 

👋

I felt it worth consideration.

[PublikDomain]

17 hours ago, darklord122 said:

Most items in the game are already on the same level in terms of your own respective builds, You secondary can be just as powerful as your primary and melee vise versa.
Archguns already do massive damage and pets can already nuke, The game however does have weapons that are worse than others but thats somewhat part of the experience and even a reason for incarnon form modifications to exist. To uplift those underutilized weapons.

This is simply untrue. You, me, and everyone knows it. Why do you think those underutilized weapons are underutilized in the first place? Why do they need uplifting? Why were Incarnons added? It's certainly not because this equipment is already good and desirable! It's because most of the tools in the game are flat-out bad. Where do weapons like the Veldt place on this "same level"? Where do environmental hazards like explosive barrels place? Where do Sentinel weapons place? Where are mounted turrets? Where are Gale Kick and parkour damage mods? Too weak to care. If you only take a narrow view of the game's mechanics then sure, there are a lot of guns and melee that are good. But if you take a half a step back and look at everything else, most of it is crap. Addressing this is literally why Rivens were introduced - and that was 8 years ago. DE's been chasing this same ghost of their own creation for almost a decade.

17 hours ago, darklord122 said:

Everyone dealing the same damage across the board would ruin the very foundation of what the games systems are based on. Rivens wouldnt matter, Arcanes, Archon shards invigorations all of these would be trivialized across the board and everyone would play the same experience.

This is a baseless fear. A level playing field is literally what DE has been attempting to achieve through Rivens, Incarnons, Galvanized Mods, weapon Arcanes, Archgun buffs, AoE nerfs, etc. Has the game been ruined yet? No, because it's a good thing to want to achieve. Rivens wouldn't matter? Good. Shards and Invigorations wouldn't matter? Good. It's a glass half full, glass half empty kind of thing. Yes, your selection of equipment might not matter very much. Good. It means you can play with whatever you want and go have fun with what you prefer, not being bound to some narrow meta where only some things are worth considering and everything else is better off ignored.

17 hours ago, darklord122 said:

You proceed to then speak of how just because TNW has different gameplay segments with characters that means that DE no longer can design things anymore with warframes in mind which is fundamentally just dumb to assume.

DE has spoken openly about this issue for some time now. Again, don't take my word for it - take the game's now Creative Director:

On 2021-11-11 at 6:33 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We understand those seeking a different outcome will disagree with this choice, but ultimately we are not willing to further bolster AoE at this time. This is due to the increasing difficulty in creating content that serves to challenge the Tenno.   

17 hours ago, darklord122 said:

While negatively impacting players is bad inherently not many people do it intentionally nor maliciously. Its a by product of the games design and the way it incentivizes you to acquire rewards across the board.

That's no excuse. Just because people don't know they're ruining others' experiences doesn't mean that they should continue to ruin others' experiences. And within this thread in particular, ignorance is definitely not an excuse because people are coming forward and saying openly how they're being negatively impacted. Anyone reading this thread knows that people are being negatively impacted. To defend the status quo despite knowing that it's poisoning others' experiences may not be malicious, but it's certainly selfish.

17 hours ago, darklord122 said:

Lastly damage attenuation isnt a holy grail of a roadblock. Its just a scaled damage reduction that can be overcome quite easily at almost every level. Only somewhat struggling in steel path. Its not the end all be all of putting players best down, All it does is add challenge to the game which is quite self evident. Overguard as well inherently does not induce any teamwork, Because you dont need an entire team to take down one enemy that has it much less 20. Not even on steel path.

Yes, these mechanics have failed to do what they were intended to. There are too many holes and imbalances for DE to ever hope to make them work correctly. But that doesn't change the fact that they were introduced for a specific purpose: to counter the problems caused by rampant player powercreep, like the erosion of team play and DE's ability to create content that offers a challenge. DE has been constantly trying to solve these issues, because these issues are a problem and they are worth solving. They're just not very good at it.

[darklord122]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

I felt it worth consideration.

One emoji wont make me reconsider anything, and you babbling on about a build you already lied on and proceed to add on useless information about slots and choices when you are not even using them in said build.


👋

[darklord122]

47 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

This is simply untrue. You, me, and everyone knows it. Why do you think those underutilized weapons are underutilized in the first place? Why do they need uplifting? Why were Incarnons added? It's certainly not because this equipment is already good and desirable! It's because most of the tools in the game are flat-out bad. Where do weapons like the Veldt place on this "same level"? Where do environmental hazards like explosive barrels place? Where do Sentinel weapons place? Where are mounted turrets? Where are Gale Kick and parkour damage mods? Too weak to care. If you only take a narrow view of the game's mechanics then sure, there are a lot of guns and melee that are good. But if you take a half a step back and look at everything else, most of it is crap. Addressing this is literally why Rivens were introduced - and that was 8 years ago. DE's been chasing this same ghost of their own creation for almost a decade.

This is a baseless fear. A level playing field is literally what DE has been attempting to achieve through Rivens, Incarnons, Galvanized Mods, weapon Arcanes, Archgun buffs, AoE nerfs, etc. Has the game been ruined yet? No, because it's a good thing to want to achieve. Rivens wouldn't matter? Good. Shards and Invigorations wouldn't matter? Good. It's a glass half full, glass half empty kind of thing. Yes, your selection of equipment might not matter very much. Good. It means you can play with whatever you want and go have fun with what you prefer, not being bound to some narrow meta where only some things are worth considering and everything else is better off ignored.

DE has spoken openly about this issue for some time now. Again, don't take my word for it - take the game's now Creative Director:

That's no excuse. Just because people don't know they're ruining others' experiences doesn't mean that they should continue to ruin others' experiences. And within this thread in particular, ignorance is definitely not an excuse because people are coming forward and saying openly how they're being negatively impacted. Anyone reading this thread knows that people are being negatively impacted. To defend the status quo despite knowing that it's poisoning others' experiences may not be malicious, but it's certainly selfish.

Yes, these mechanics have failed to do what they were intended to. There are too many holes and imbalances for DE to ever hope to make them work correctly. But that doesn't change the fact that they were introduced for a specific purpose: to counter the problems caused by rampant player powercreep, like the erosion of team play and DE's ability to create content that offers a challenge. DE has been constantly trying to solve these issues, because these issues are a problem and they are worth solving. They're just not very good at it.

My first part was not untrue, As I said they can be just as powerful as their subsequent counterparts however I already mentioned that yes underutilized weapons do exist, Just because I didnt outright spell it out and name drop every weapon that does or does not suit the criteria does not make the point invalid.

Environmental hazards have always been a thing in the game and as far as anyone can tell will always be in as a niche way to deal damage and help provide lower level players with more environmental utilization as their builds might not measure up. On higher levels these barely even matter and even in the new Albrecht tileset it barely helps the situation even though the entire map is made to utilize it. Turrets and sentinel weapons have been made somewhat obsolete however I have seen builds utilizing sentinel weapons and even sentinel weapon rivens to uplift them even higher.

Kick and parkour damage mods have basically been in since parkour was reworked and again is a very niche way to play as this game is built on options. Exploring other ways to play the game essentially but as you said they are too weak to care and are from an era where parkour was focused on but now not so much.

And thats kind of how things go, Niche builds unless certain circumstances get left behind when their usecase ceases to exist and it happends in basically any game with build based things in mind. WoW being an example of how old gear with niche stats get left behind as more stronger options become available.

Moving on.
You say its a baseless fear when you dont take into account the free way warframe lets you build and how the game is centered around this fact. Being forced to be limited to a few set playstyles instead of basically an unlimited set will deter people and subsequently dull the game. If it was as easy as doing this DE would have already brought out as a solution yet they still only add on for the freeflowing playstyle. These additions you repeated with rivens, Arcanes and galvanized mods isnt entirerly true on leveling the field for everyone.
A prime example being rivens. They are fundamentally random in nature to give you more aspects to combine with instead of standard mods and too increase the strength of your weapons and subsequently give more playstyles to the already free system.

However they are random, No riven will be the same thus making the argument that they where added to level the playing the field becomes a fallacy as you can't even things out if everything is different. And your solution to have everyone be at the same level would force these mods into a static rotation meaning their main addition was useless to begin with.

I can argue that arcanes and the other mods serve to level the playing field however that still only levels it for the high end players and those are the ones you complain about yet do nothing to equalize with them thus getting the equalized fantasy you want.

A game directors justification for nerfing something that is too strong is again not an indiciation that they are stopping people from being strong inherently its about adding challenge onto the player. And nerfing playstyles that make the design choices of those philosophies more difficult is fine as you still get to play the way you want and still be strong. It has has no connotations or implications that, that is why TNW cinematic segments where intended only to nerf the player. It not a good foundational base when you have no quotes.

To further on the argument of allowing people their own playstyles where they want people are not immediately guilty of negatively impacting other peoples experiences just because they want to play in their own way. And from what ive seen here, and actively on the forum pages this isnt the most widespread problem warframe has and as ive already explained to Merk several times and so have others, End game players entering a normal mission does not automatically mean it becomes a negative experience for the players involved.

Its impossible to clear an entire map instantly when enemies spawn from all sides and can even be force spawned. Especially with modes where killing isnt strictly needed or where they add ludicrous hordes of them.

Exterminate gets put up as a main point when talking about it when the mode itself incentivizes you to murder everything quick, Even then there are a multitude of enemies everywhere and unless endgame players play on a level 1-10 mission clearing a entire mission instantly is basically non existant with the exception of certain nuke builds which again ive already talked about some needing to possibly be nerfed and even then they are not as bad as people make them out to be.


Last damage attenuation isnt inherently a failed mechanic neither is overguard because they do exactly what they where meant to at their intended levels. If DE so badly would have wanted them to be "fixed" Its fairly simple to add a baseline damage string to lower damage more harshly yet they have not done that why? And for how many years now?

You say DE themselves are not good at solving the issues of the game yet you have perfect solutions all around, And Id rather trust DE then you in regards to their design philosophy.

 

Edited February 8 by darklord122

[PublikDomain]

12 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

What you describe there sounds like a nightmare to me. I would NOT enjoy playing the game, were those conditions present, with all things being equal, completely balanced and bland, with no reason to get better things, because everything is the same... you've described the death condition of a game, in my book. It's the end of progression. The end of reasons to play. The end of fun.

I don't see at all why this would be the case. Why does "balanced" have to mean "bland"? Is using the same handful of meta builds that never change day in and day out not itself bland? Isn't variety the spice of life? I don't see how having 10 excellent tools is supposed to be less bland than having 1,000. Is it not bland that eleven secondaries take up half of all secondary usage across the entire game?

Is this not the definition of bland?

There'd be no reason to get better things? What reason is there to get new things now? Get your Kuva Nukor and your Laetum, and now what? Where do you "progress" from there? Not to the hundreds and hundreds of other worse weapons, that's for sure. When DE adds a new weapon and it's not very good, do you get excited to go backwards in your "progression" and acquire that weak weapon you're just going to throw away? I can't imagine you would be. With a vertical meta where a handful of items sit on top, that's the end of your fun you're apparently worried about. You acquire the dozen best weapons and you're done, the end. Sit around and wait until DE adds some new item on top, so you can throw away your progress and start over from scratch on the new shiny.

But if everything is strong and desirable, where do you go next? Well, wherever you want. Want to try the Acrid? Go for it, it'll be great. Want to try the Kohmak? Knock yourself out, it'll be great. Want to try the Viper Wraith? Do it, they'll be great. Want to make an all-Grakata build? It'll be great. Want to make a Vor cosplay with a Seer and Cronus? It'll be great, go kill God with it. Wanna click randomize and see what you get? Whatever it is, it'll be great. With a horizontal meta there is no such end. Every single thing pushes that end further and further away. You can have fun with anything, with the confidence that all of the progress you invest in those items will remain valuable forever.

That's a good thing.

Edit: And to be clear, I'm not saying "every weapon must deal exactly 115.7 DPS in all situations". I'm just saying that maybe instead of the strongest weapon being 1,000x stronger than the weakest, maybe something like 3x is more appropriate? You'd still be able to chase the meta and get your big numbers, go for it. But the guy that loves the Carmine Penta shouldn't #*!% off and die just because you don't want his favorite gun to be almost as good as yours. It's like Pokemon: every frame is someone's favorite. Say that every frame should be good and you get a standing ovation, but say that every gun should be good and people accuse you of trying to unravel the fabric of society.

12 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I despise damage attenuation. I despise Khal, Veso and Teshin gameplay. I hate playing as the Drifter in Duviri. Although, I expected the Arthur part to be worse... he's just the Excalibur frame, and his melee was acceptable in his one mission so far - the jury is obviously still out on his future performance in the rest of the 1999 story. DE's de-powering of players during missions is making me dislike the missions a great deal - it's not making anything any more fun. The New War was pure TORTURE.

(And before anyone gets snarky and says "if you hate the game so much, why do you even play anymore?" Because the solo missions in the rest of the game are PURE FUN, with my full loadout that I've collected and built up over the years, and am comfortable playing the game with, rather than pre-set (or random, in the case of Duviri) de-powered loadouts that strip all fun from the game.)

Well pucker up, because it's not gonna stop. This kind of content is the direct result of this fearful avoidance of game balance. DE has no other option but to make content like this. If you don't want to eat your veggies DE's just gonna grind it up and hide it in your nuggies anyways. Either accept balance or get balanced.

12 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

The whole teamwork thing is being blown out of proportion, as an important thing. Warframe's co-op just means that everyone in a mission is working to achieve the same objective... not that they NEED each other to achieve that objective, they just aren't working AGAINST each other. As long as the mission objective is completed, Good Job Everyone. The issues arise when a single player can accomplish the mission objective, but has to enter the mission in multiplayer mode for efficiency, when they'd otherwise have gone solo AND other players in that mission WANTED to do more... to have more kills on the end of mission report or somesuch nonsense.

This is only a more recent mindset, though. In the Good Olde Days™ teamwork was real. You organized your squad for your T4D or your Raid and you worked together. No one could do everything all by themselves, someone was on support and someone was on defense and someone was on damage. Having teammates was always a benefit and the better you could work together the further you could go - and the more rewards you could get. Now everyone can do everything all on their own and we're out in 5 minutes, and we're not working together to do anything. If anything, we are working against each other when we all want to play the game but there's not enough game left to share. Whoever gets out in front of the pack gets to play the game, and everyone else has to compete to take their spot for their chance to be the one that plays.

12 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

DE's intentions with nerfing have never matched up with the reality of playing the game. They feel like unnecessary changes that make absolutely no sense in the context of the game after a few more months of releases bring things even stronger than the previously nerfed thing... if they undid previous nerfs to coincide with the present power structure of the game, it might feel better, but they never reverse nerfs when the balance of the game changes. Those things are permanently sledgehammered into the ground - for no "good" reason (you may think they're "good" reasons, I do not.) So, in practice, no, I don't trust that DE's nerfs are with the intentions of encouraging teamwork in multiplayer missions. I think their nerfs are designed to encourage people to go out and farm and use different equipment so their spreadsheets are showing a wider variety of gear being used... for no actual "good" reason for that diversity.

We're left with two options. Either DE means what they say but are just not very successful at balancing, or they're lying about their intentions and are just doing things randomly for S#&$s and giggles. Either their intentions are good and they want to make a better game for everyone, or they're malicious or are acting randomly. Personally, I'd prefer thinking the former.

DE isn't very successful with their nerfs and their buffs. Their buffs to guns with Galvanized Mods and Gun Arcanes attempted to bring guns up to par with melee but only made the AoE meta stronger, and now they've had to buff melee with Melee Arcanes to bring them up to par with guns. They had to buff Archguns, several times, which needed a bandaid to work in Archwing and Railjack content which is why we have the goofy "Atmospheric Mode". Their nerfs to AoE failed because they left in things like Ammo Mutation, their nerfs to Wukong failed because people just moved to Revenant Prime, Rivens failed on release 8 years ago because they just made the Tonkor and Soma even stronger (which is why Riven Disposition was added soon after - which also failed). Incarnons were actually rather successful, but they're so slow to develop that we're only expecting a whole *five* new ones to be added this year, so for the purpose of addressing older weapons as a whole they've failed too. Attenuation was a nerf to players that failed to account for multishot, Sister ability immunity failed to account for Banshee, they buffed explosive barrels which briefly nuked players too, the list goes on. This is the result of not addressing these foundational problems directly.

12 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

The "game" is not stolen from these people who are complaining and calling for nerfs, while trying to take the moral high ground of wanting the best for everyone, when it's clearly not "best" for everyone... just themselves... for their own reasons that they personally find fun... so they should form groups with likeminded individuals to keep having fun in their way... while PUGs continue as they always have, with people accomplishing the mission objectives... whether a single person was able to rush ahead and do it or not (most people I know - I generally don't ask this of them - are happy just getting those end of mission rewards - they're not annoyed that they didn't get more kills or anything... I've never heard this complaint from anyone I know, and I only find this sentiment in threads like this.)

Which is a typical dismissal that ignores the problem and dismisses the harm being done. Just pretend it's a "them" problem and tell them to go away, right?

Edited February 8 by PublikDomain

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, darklord122 said:

One emoji wont make me reconsider anything, and you babbling on about a build you already lied on and proceed to add on useless information about slots and choices when you are not even using them in said build.


👋

One more edit. Just so you know

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, darklord122 said:

My first part was not untrue, As I said they can be just as powerful as their subsequent counterparts however I already mentioned that yes underutilized weapons do exist, Just because I didnt outright spell it out and name drop every weapon that does or does not suit the criteria does not make the point invalid.

It is literally, factually untrue. There is no universe in which weapons like the Veldt or the Paracyst is "just as powerful" as the Felarx or whatever it is the meta favors these days. There is no Riven, no mod, no Arcane, no nothing that can catch weapons like that up. You have to make excuses and say "oh well that's a low level thing" like you do when excusing parkour damage mods. Parkour mods were cool once, I was there! I seent it!

1 hour ago, darklord122 said:

Being forced to be limited to a few set playstyles instead of basically an unlimited set will deter people and subsequently dull the game.

My brother in the Void you're literally describing the meta we have right now. This is the Slash-Viral and armor strip meta and the current weapon meta.

Like, if less playstyles dulls the game then surely more playstyles makes the game more lively, right? And if more things were good, there would be more successful playstyles to choose from, right? Or would having more options actually create less for some reason I'm sure you can explain?

Of course, this ignores that for many players it's getting too powerful itself that "dulls the game". Here's Rebecca saying it:

Quote

"When people talk about “I’m bored of Warframe” typically it’s because it’s gotten too easy for them."

Which is why DE has so often tried to create new "challenging" content, whether that be Sorties or Arbitrations or SP or the Circuit or whatever.

1 hour ago, darklord122 said:

A prime example being rivens. They are fundamentally random in nature to give you more aspects to combine with instead of standard mods and too increase the strength of your weapons and subsequently give more playstyles to the already free system.

However they are random, No riven will be the same thus making the argument that they where added to level the playing the field becomes a fallacy as you can't even things out if everything is different. And your solution to have everyone be at the same level would force these mods into a static rotation meaning their main addition was useless to begin with.

Rivens' main addition is already useless to begin with, so I don't think anything is going to be lost by making Rivens more deterministic. People already seek out specific Rivens and use the ones with the specific stats they want. The fact that you can just buy whatever Riven you want makes their randomness moot; they're only random for the poor. Rivens should be less random, with more ways for players to achieve the results they want. But this is a different topic.

1 hour ago, darklord122 said:

I can argue that arcanes and the other mods serve to level the playing field however that still only levels it for the high end players and those are the ones you complain about yet do nothing to equalize with them thus getting the equalized fantasy you want.

You're preaching to the choir, bud. I know, this is why I've said that DE has failed at their many attempts. Instead of addressing the playing field through base mechanics changes that affect everything, they've tended to opt for this never-ending chain of buffs and nerfs that target the high end.

The result is that guns are pathetic compared to melee for new players, which you can feel for yourself by making a new account and playing from the start. I've done this and so could you. Melee are flat-out stronger across the board, and once you get Broken War in the quest you can mostly rely on your melee alone. IIRC about 75% of my kills on my new playthrough account that went up to Apostasy were from melee. Then everything flips when you get the stronger AoE weapons and high end power spikes like Galvanized Mods and Gun Arcanes, and now it's melee which are weaker - which is why DE just recently added melee Arcanes with MitW to try and buff them. Which like you say, only affects high end players. It's just goofy.

Or, DE could instead make balance changes at foundations which would affect everything above them. It's ancient history by now, but one time DE actually did what they should have, and buffed all melee weapons' base stats to address a weakness at that time. They could have done literally the same thing to address the "Arsenal Divide" that spawned Galvanized Mods and actually rebalance guns to be on the same level as melee, but they instead chose to just slap a mod on it. They did do the same stats rebalancing recently with Archguns, again, which I guess they could do because there are so few of them. But they're still weak so this hasn't stopped people asking for Galvanized Archgun mods and Archgun Arcanes anyways.

1 hour ago, darklord122 said:

A game directors justification for nerfing something that is too strong is again not an indiciation that they are stopping people from being strong inherently its about adding challenge onto the player.

You've got it mixed up, DE didn't fix Galvanized Mods not working on AoE because it would make it harder to add challenge for the player. People are so strong DE has difficulty making a challenge anymore. Reb spelled it out in pretty clear language, there's really no other way to read it.

1 hour ago, darklord122 said:

To further on the argument of allowing people their own playstyles where they want people are not immediately guilty of negatively impacting other peoples experiences just because they want to play in their own way. And from what ive seen here, and actively on the forum pages this isnt the most widespread problem warframe has and as ive already explained to Merk several times and so have others, End game players entering a normal mission does not automatically mean it becomes a negative experience for the players involved.

Sure, it's not automatic, but it still sometimes turns it into a negative experience for others. Which is still bad and should be addressed. Neither you nor I speak for everyone or have surveyed every player to know how much widespread this issue is. What we can say as an absolute fact, however, is that it does negatively affect some people. We can also look at DE's own statements where they themselves have said that it's an issue and have used that as a reason to make changes to the game. If it wasn't that widespread, DE wouldn't have done anything. But they did do something, because it is a problem even if you don't want to believe it.

1 hour ago, darklord122 said:

Last damage attenuation isnt inherently a failed mechanic neither is overguard because they do exactly what they where meant to at their intended levels. If DE so badly would have wanted them to be "fixed" Its fairly simple to add a baseline damage string to lower damage more harshly yet they have not done that why? And for how many years now?

They just adjusted Attenuation a few months ago because it wasn't working right. "This is not a favorable outcome":

On 2023-10-18 at 7:58 AM, [DE]Megan said:

Damage Attenuation is one tool of many to increase enemy difficulty by limiting how much damage they take from player weapons, etc. 
Our current form of Damage Attenuation has resulted in many weapons feeling lackluster due to the high attenuation values, and damage output was reduced significantly to balance out the post-attenuation modifiers -- meaning that Archon fights felt like a slog if players did not use a limited set of optimal builds.

This is not a favorable outcome, so we have made the following changes:

Overguard was adjusted many times as well.

1 hour ago, darklord122 said:

You say DE themselves are not good at solving the issues of the game yet you have perfect solutions all around,

Yes, because they haven't solved them. If they were successful then we wouldn't be here having this discussion.

Edited February 8 by PublikDomain

[darklord122]

8 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I don't see at all why this would be the case. Why does "balanced" have to mean "bland"? Is using the same handful of meta builds that never change day in and day out not itself bland? Isn't variety the spice of life? I don't see how having 10 excellent tools is supposed to be less bland than having 1,000. Is it not bland that eleven secondaries take up half of all secondary usage across the entire game?

Is this not the definition of bland?

There'd be no reason to get better things? What reason is there to get new things now? Get your Kuva Nukor and your Laetum, and now what? Where do you "progress" from there? Not to the hundreds and hundreds of other worse weapons, that's for sure. When DE adds a new weapon and it's not very good, do you get excited to go backwards in your "progression" and acquire that weak weapon you're just going to throw away? I can't imagine you would be. With a vertical meta where a handful of items sit on top, that's the end of your fun you're apparently worried about. You acquire the dozen best weapons and you're done, the end. Sit around and wait until DE adds some new item on top, so you can throw away your progress and start over from scratch on the new shiny.

But if everything is strong and desirable, where do you go next? Well, wherever you want. Want to try the Acrid? Go for it, it'll be great. Want to try the Kohmak? Knock yourself out, it'll be great. Want to try the Viper Wraith? Do it, they'll be great. Want to make an all-Grakata build? It'll be great. Want to make a Vor cosplay with a Seer and Cronus? It'll be great, go kill God with it. Wanna click randomize and see what you get? Whatever it is, it'll be great. With a horizontal meta there is no such end. Every single thing pushes that end further and further away. You can have fun with anything, with the confidence that all of the progress you invest in those items will remain valuable forever.

That's a good thing.

Well pucker up, because it's not gonna stop. This kind of content is the direct result of this fearful avoidance of game balance. DE has no other option but to make content like this. If you don't want to eat your veggies DE's just gonna grind it up and hide it in your nuggies anyways. Either accept balance or get balanced.

This is only a more recent mindset, though. In the Good Olde Days™ teamwork was real. You organized your squad for your T4D or your Raid and you worked together. No one could do everything all by themselves, someone was on support and someone was on defense and someone was on damage. Having teammates was always a benefit and the better you could work together the further you could go - and the more rewards you could get. Now everyone can do everything all on their own and we're out in 5 minutes, and we're not working together to do anything. If anything, we are working against each other when we all want to play the game but there's not enough game left to share. Whoever gets out in front of the pack gets to play the game, and everyone else has to compete to take their spot for their chance to be the one that plays.

We're left with two options. Either DE means what they say but are just not very successful at balancing, or they're lying about their intentions and are just doing things randomly for S#&$s and giggles. Either their intentions are good and they want to make a better game for everyone, or they're malicious or are acting randomly for S#&$s and giggles. Personally, I'd prefer thinking the former.

DE isn't very successful with their nerfs and their buffs. Their buffs to guns with Galvanized Mods and Gun Arcanes attempted to bring guns up to par with melee but only made the AoE meta stronger, and now they've had to buff melee with Melee Arcanes to bring them up to par with guns. They had to buff Archguns, several times, which needed a bandaid to work in Archwing and Railjack content which is why we have the goofy "Atmospheric Mode". Their nerfs to AoE failed because they left in things like Ammo Mutation, their nerfs to Wukong failed because people just moved to Revenant Prime, Rivens failed on release 8 years ago because they just made the Tonkor and Soma even stronger (which is why Riven Disposition was added soon after - which also failed). Incarnons were actually rather successful, but they're so slow to develop that we're only expecting a whole *five* new ones to be added this year, so for the purpose of addressing older weapons as a whole they've failed too. Attenuation was a nerf to players that failed to account for multishot, Sister ability immunity failed to account for Banshee, they buffed explosive barrels which briefly nuked players too, the list goes on. This is the result of not addressing these foundational problems directly.

Which is a typical dismissal that ignores the problem and dismisses the harm being done. Just pretend it's a "them" problem and tell them to go away, right?

Reasons to get better things has stagnated but there are still things always to achieve for across the spectrum of master ranks otherwise people wouldnt be grinding the way they do today and the very playstyle you complain about would also stagnate as the majority only increases.
You even have a direct quote as a causality of nerfs being that people just farm for more diverse weapons, And players will always go for the stronger options, its prevalent in any game especially MMO's.

And ill admit the high weapon usage does make things dull to an extent but its something they have nerfed several times and other weapons are being uplifted almost every patch.
However what I mean by dull is fundamentally different from you, As I can still use destiny as a prime example of everyone being on an even playing field but the gameplay and weapons have stagnated in terms of user feel as weapons get abandoned on the regular due to minute changes in stats and basically the same thing would happen in warframe as well. Including complete health gating of basic enemies and bosses. While some bosses are in warframe its not nearly as bad.


In the good ol days teamwork was somewhat existant yes however you still where allowed to play by yourself. And do mind this in a time where stamina and payed revives where also a thing so teamwork was very much forced as well. And people being allowed to play on their own is not a bad thing for the players as they get to feel better in relying on themselves while still having options to support teammates which many warframe's have utilizations for including the strongest ones out there.
We can talk about how in the old days we teamworked all we want however fundamentally now warframe is a completely different game from then and the design philosophy has in fact changed.


A couple quotes of complaints does not make a majority and we can argue to the ends of the earth on this unless you show a much more substantial amount that sticks out. And ive acknowledged it exists but if it was such a prevailing issue much harsher actions would have been taken a long time ago because this is very much not new, And while DE acknowledges this as well they still do not force the endgame of players to buckle down.


You fully ignored the fact that TNW segments arent specifically made to nerf the player yet you insists on it based on a quote about nerfing AoE and subsist on that as an entire baseline for your argument of how DE is intending to balance everyone to be the same no matter what.


You are now calling DE incompetent at designing your own game when they could have made everything a flat balance years ago yet for some reason they don't yet keep encouraging a free flowing way of play. Yet to you a few nerfs to keep challenge in the game is a sign of everyone has to be put on the same level when its still clear that its not what they are going for or much harsher changes would have already been announced and in place, Especially since damage attenuation already exists its fairly simple to just improve that yet they do not.


You call DE incompetent for having a harder time balancing a completely new mode added to the game with archwing and thus balances had to be made for an entirely new experience they had never worked with before. Same being said for Railjack where not only they combined a open world segment which they where not fully experienced with yet and also adding archwing on top of that of course issues will arise. While I have my complaints with both modes still not being viable to play in most aspects these issues where easy to see as to why these issues arose and the modes while not populated still have gotten much better.

Guns being uplifted to compete with melee did cause an AoE issue yes,which was eventually fixed but its a general issue that can happen anywhere with balancing especially when you have 3 different types of weapons to balance with hundreds of weapons also hanging in the balance as well, And you say it still fails due to ammo mutation yet most weapons that utilize AoE now don't even need that with the exceptions of a few and can even be mitigated with the helminth abilities they have added.
I can agree the nerf's to wukong failed however the most prevalent nerf was not because of survivability it was to address the issue at hand of his clone being to powerful thus not even needing to play the game. The nerf did what it did succesfully and while the buffs to Revenant are too big and should be looked at its not comparable as these two issues are different inherently.

Incarnons being slow to add is not a surprise as its adding several balances to 5 different weapons with up to 9 different ways to choose how to give perks to those weapons effectively giving you 9 different ways to build them across each weapon. They could add more but id rather they be slow and let the weapons be balanced the way they want instead of flooding the entire circuit with weapons that inevitably will just cause the same farming issue as your graph shows. And while they add incarnons it does not mean that low end weapons wont be uplifted in different ways.


Ill go straight to attenuation again as its the easiest form they ever would have of balancing the game the way you want inherently as limiting the amount of damage you can do on a given level as a cap can be easily implemented yet they have outright never done so nor even hinted at it.

You essentially also claim every system DE adds fails and subsequently they suck at what they do, If that was the case the game would have been lost years ago as you can not fail at every single turn and expect people to stay positive for this long even with substantial buffs to those systems. The systems added did what they meant and where added on to just as any other system has been. DE somehow has a full string of incompetence with success and yet you know exactly what the game needs to be balanced yet they never add on to those systems you talk about and continually only add on to let people be as free as they want to be.

And you talk about them either sucking at balancing or outright lying about their intentions but they have never stated their intentions towards restricting players and their continued actions just imply the direct opposite.

Playing your own way without having to think about every action you take isnt an inherent dismissal, Its about wanting to enjoy your own experience as well. There of course exists negative results due to that but it cant be applicable to everyone as everyone eventually reach these strength's at some point just by progressing. By default everyone will be guilty of playing the way they want.

So unless DE just crushes what they have built thus also making everyone's collective effort for the past decade meaningless.


So ill agree to disagree. We both have points that are correct across both ways of playing but fundamentally it wont go anywhere as we both want our own way of things.

7 hours ago, Merkranire said:

One more edit. Just so you know

Didnt care still

👋

Edited February 9 by darklord122

[Merkranire]

You got your work cut out for you, @PublikDomain.

This dude’s not interested in balance, more interested in taking the “Choose how you want to play, balanced or unbalanced” strength of this game and parading only part of it around while thinking players can simultaneously have such free rein as they currently enjoy as well as the restraints necessary to ensure balanced co-operative gameplay without it being a choice thing.

It might blow their little mind how much there is available and how much the game makes sense and how the rewards available are even more valuable when one goes searching for that other side, but it’s something they’ll need to forced into in order to see the other side, since they’re clearly uninterested now, and if DE force them they’re forcing all of us

[ZantenZan]

I do think that some of the things DE have done in terms of alternate game modes like Grendel's blueprint missions and the Duviri Circuit 'default mod sets' might be interesting to examine in the context of creating a new alternative layer to Star Map, alongside Steel Path, maybe unlocked at the same time. Basically retooling the enemy level caps to whatever might feel like an appropriate challenge depending on whether they disable everything ala Grendel missions, or just set up pre-made builds for every weapon and Warframe in the game... and probably disable Operator mode as well, because a well-kitted Operator can also get one pretty far in terms of staving off death. Setting aside nuking itself, there are admittedly a lot of things that we take for granted nowadays, whether it's survivability buffs, virtually limitless energy regeneration, etc, and a game mode that strips some of those advantages and puts everyone on a modest playing field would be a neat concept. 

'Alternative game mode' would be the operative word, though, as at this point I think DE has spent too much time releasing new Arcanes, Warframes, mod sets, and other means of power boosting to just start dragging the entire playerbase in a completely different direction by nerfing the main game to oblivion. (And seriously, the last thing I would ever want is for a Relic cracking Exterminate mission to take three times longer so someone can smell the roses, rose-smelling is what we have Survival for. :P ) Even if they decided to 'just remove the nuke builds,' the most effective meta builds are just that, the most effective. Even after those, there are a bunch of other builds that can obliterate a small country without necessarily being considered 'top tier,' because the difference in power scaling is vast.

Trying to actually pull that power scaling all the way back without functionally gutting the game from top to bottom would be a massive undertaking, and even if someone could walk that tightrope successfully, I'm not sure DE would manage to pull it off. Every time a new build gets put together that single-handedly deletes an Archon boss, or turns Dual Ichor Incarnon into a map-clearing Diet Saryn, my first thought is usually; '...yeah, DE probably didn't see that coming.' There are just so many threads all intertwined and tangled up, pulling on any one of them tends to unravel five or six other areas.

Having a single pre-curated build that leaves little to no wiggle room to figure out tricks, though? Much easier to pull off and tweak where necessary if someone does find a loophole. And confining it to a separate mode still leaves player choice on the table, by giving those who want to specifically avoid running missions with overpowering players a place to go instead. Even extend it so it can serve as an alternative way to run, say, an Archon hunt, giving players have the option of avoiding a team where three of the four participants are packing Phenmors and the boss is about to get Sonny Corleoned.

Sure, the fight would take waaaaaay longer that way, but presumably that's what these people would be signing up for.

[Merkranire]

17 minutes ago, ZantenZan said:

I do think that some of the things DE have done in terms of alternate game modes like Grendel's blueprint missions and the Duviri Circuit 'default mod sets' might be interesting to examine in the context of creating a new alternative layer to Star Map, alongside Steel Path, maybe unlocked at the same time. Basically retooling the enemy level caps to whatever might feel like an appropriate challenge depending on whether they disable everything ala Grendel missions, or just set up pre-made builds for every weapon and Warframe in the game... and probably disable Operator mode as well, because a well-kitted Operator can also get one pretty far in terms of staving off death. Setting aside nuking itself, there are admittedly a lot of things that we take for granted nowadays, whether it's survivability buffs, virtually limitless energy regeneration, etc, and a game mode that strips some of those advantages and puts everyone on a modest playing field would be a neat concept. 

'Alternative game mode' would be the operative word, though, as at this point I think DE has spent too much time releasing new Arcanes, Warframes, mod sets, and other means of power boosting to just start dragging the entire playerbase in a completely different direction by nerfing the main game to oblivion. (And seriously, the last thing I would ever want is for a Relic cracking Exterminate mission to take three times longer so someone can smell the roses, rose-smelling is what we have Survival for. :P ) Even if they decided to 'just remove the nuke builds,' the most effective meta builds are just that, the most effective. Even after those, there are a bunch of other builds that can obliterate a small country without necessarily being considered 'top tier,' because the difference in power scaling is vast.

Trying to actually pull that power scaling all the way back without functionally gutting the game from top to bottom would be a massive undertaking, and even if someone could walk that tightrope successfully, I'm not sure DE would manage to pull it off. Every time a new build gets put together that single-handedly deletes an Archon boss, or turns Dual Ichor Incarnon into a map-clearing Diet Saryn, my first thought is usually; '...yeah, DE probably didn't see that coming.' There are just so many threads all intertwined and tangled up, pulling on any one of them tends to unravel five or six other areas.

Having a single pre-curated build that leaves little to no wiggle room to figure out tricks, though? Much easier to pull off and tweak where necessary if someone does find a loophole. And confining it to a separate mode still leaves player choice on the table, by giving those who want to specifically avoid running missions with overpowering players a place to go instead. Even extend it so it can serve as an alternative way to run, say, an Archon hunt, giving players have the option of avoiding a team where three of the four participants are packing Phenmors and the boss is about to get Sonny Corleoned.

Sure, the fight would take waaaaaay longer that way, but presumably that's what these people would be signing up for.

Would a filter where one side is full of players who know what content they’re built for and the other side is full of players who don’t fulfill this idea?

No huge overhaul necessary, only trust that someone choosing one or the other is choosing with intent. All the gameplay pieces are there, the gameplay’s pretty good and the choices varied, the only thing different is the player and how they choose to arrange them, and if someone chooses to arrange them into a solo-in-multiplayer experience and another chooses to arrange the components into… not-that, naturally they’d choose different sides

I think your guesstimation on how long a fight would take could do with some reconsideration, though; even if you’re not sure how long it’d take, I think you can agree that the bar for most is set at “Instant”, so there’s going to be some skewed impressions

[NeDesitVirtus]

I like Steel Path and hope for harder more challenging content. The regular Path is "snooze path". Taking nuke builds into snooze path is kinda sad, like taking candy from little kids. That is all.   

[ZantenZan]

1 hour ago, Merkranire said:

Would a filter where one side is full of players who know what content they’re built for and the other side is full of players who don’t fulfill this idea?

No huge overhaul necessary, only trust that someone choosing one or the other is choosing with intent. All the gameplay pieces are there, the gameplay’s pretty good and the choices varied, the only thing different is the player and how they choose to arrange them, and if someone chooses to arrange them into a solo-in-multiplayer experience and another chooses to arrange the components into… not-that, naturally they’d choose different sides

I think your guesstimation on how long a fight would take could do with some reconsideration, though; even if you’re not sure how long it’d take, I think you can agree that the bar for most is set at “Instant”, so there’s going to be some skewed impressions

The only thing that brings me up short on matchmaking filters is even setting aside obvious potential for griefing, I find people can rarely agree on what a common ground would even be. Like, the power scaling in this game is pretty vast, and there are more ways to hog kills in something like Exterminate than just nuking. I could equip a well-modded Arca Plasmor, rapid-fire rifle with high dps, etc, set up some parkour-speed enhancing Warframe with high survivability, and still probably run circles around anyone who brought a short-range shotgun, melee, or a slow-winding bow to the mission. I wouldn't fit the criteria of being a nuke, per say, and by extension be a lot more modest than a Saryn map-clearer, but still end up making someone feel like they had a failure to launch. Person A might decide that such a build is within the spirit of the game, fair play, etc. Person B might get frustrated cause I keep killing their targets before they can fire their bow, even if I'm largely doing what they're doing, just pushing myself a lot faster to do it.

(Speaking here as someone whose top-rated weapon is still Dread, by the way, even though I mostly had to stop using it in order to tackle Steel Path and Netracells. The wind up stress is real. ;_; )

A mode with pre-built modsets for the equipment you own (something DE have already implemented for Duviri, mind you,) would not only close loopholes, but also make it easier to enforce strengths and weaknesses of specific weapons and weapon types. Again, not something I'd want to see enforced on the main game, because I also enjoying seeing how hard I can break Steel Path Survival with my Kullervo and Dual Ichor Incarnon combination. But having somewhere to go for a different sort of challenge, where nobody has access to certain 'quality of life' improvements that we can take for granted, would also be a nice option to have. And I think with the setup that DE already undertook putting builds together for Duviri Circuit equipment, it likely wouldn't need as much set-up as a lot of other options would.

 

To be honest, my guesstimation was mostly based on how long an Archon fight took me running what I used to consider my best damage-dealing weapon, (a Rubico Prime with Riven that I used for Eidolon hunting,) versus using a Phenmor with the kind of standard mods you would expect and Xata's Whisper for added aim assist. The former obviously hit hard, but given I was running it solo (because I didn't want to drag a team down, as the DPS was veeeery much a matter of aim,) it took me about a half hour or so of frantically jumping around and landing headshots while the boss healed regularly. :P The Phenmor just melted the boss and the fight took all of five minutes, most of which was spent doing that in-between bit with the double-locked gate. Former arguably made for a more exciting fight, but the latter is realistically the route I'd take on a weekly basis to nab my shard so I can spend the rest of my time Grendel-balling around a mission trying to see how many enemies I can run over.

The irony is that guesstimating what an average run would look like would be virtually impossible to figure out on Public Squad, given half the squad would obliterate the boss, and the other half might be armed with whiffle bats. The power scaling in this game is vast, and the questlines the game needs completed in order to access these endgame modes require a lot less 'oomph' than the modes themselves might require, meaning you have players who had no real difficulty finishing The New War or Whispers in the Walls, but are by no means kitted out to contribute to a Netracell, Steel Path or Archon hunt yet. 

(Speaking here as someone who was in exactly that position back in December. :P I literally cheesed Netracells in Operator mode using environmental kills, it took me ages.)

Edited February 9 by ZantenZan

[darklord122]

2 hours ago, Merkranire said:

You got your work cut out for you, @PublikDomain.

This dude’s not interested in balance, more interested in taking the “Choose how you want to play, balanced or unbalanced” strength of this game and parading only part of it around while thinking players can simultaneously have such free rein as they currently enjoy as well as the restraints necessary to ensure balanced co-operative gameplay without it being a choice thing.

It might blow their little mind how much there is available and how much the game makes sense and how the rewards available are even more valuable when one goes searching for that other side, but it’s something they’ll need to forced into in order to see the other side, since they’re clearly uninterested now, and if DE force them they’re forcing all of us

Ive outright spoken for balancing by being for the nerfing that DE has been continuously doing but you conveniently ignore that much like all the other posts that have been directed to you across 8 different pages, However wanting a power fantasy allowed in a game where that is strictly encouraged isn't a wrong mindset to have.

It would blow your little mind how when you reach a certain point, the game actively discourages you from grinding in any other way as rewards are unbalanced across the star chart thus doing high tiered missions at their level is inherently just not worth it period, And instead of advocating for more rewards and more reward balance across the system at higher levels you want everyone to be put down to your level so that everyone's collective effort in endgame would ultimately have just meant nothing.

But hey it has actively blown your mind that people don't have to conform to one play-style and that cooperative play still exists even if there are powerful individuals around, And that eventually every player reaches that level as well just by playing. So fundamentally you would eventually blame everyone for just existing.

But seeing how you've been acting about people having to be at your level and subsequently outright lie about what you build in certain modes Im not surprised you want to put people down.

If DE wanted to force people down they would have but so far there has been no real indication of that happening, Weapon nerfs and added challenges do not speak for that either as with every one of those patches its still been shown they want to keep endgame players to the same degree they currently are and even have successfully added challenge to those players without needing to put them down at all, Already specified earlier how much harsher patches can be made however they don't seem to enforce that for some unknown reason.

Also I thought you where done here? Guess not, however that does not surprise me in the least.

Edited February 9 by darklord122

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, ZantenZan said:

The only thing that brings me up short on matchmaking filters is even setting aside obvious potential for griefing, I find people can rarely agree on what a common ground would even be. Like, the power scaling in this game is pretty vast, and there are more ways to hog kills in something like Exterminate than just nuking. I could equip a well-modded Arca Plasmor, rapid-fire rifle with high dps, etc, set up some parkour-speed enhancing Warframe with high survivability, and still probably run circles around anyone who brought a short-range shotgun, melee, or a slow-winding bow to the mission. I wouldn't fit the criteria of being a nuke, per say, and by extension be a lot more modest than a Saryn map-clearer, but still end up making someone feel like they had a failure to launch. Person A might decide that such a build is within the spirit of the game, fair play, etc. Person B might get frustrated cause I keep killing their targets before they can fire their bow, even if I'm largely doing what they're doing, just pushing myself a lot faster to do it.

(Speaking here as someone whose top-rated weapon is still Dread, by the way, even though I mostly had to stop using it in order to tackle Steel Path and Netracells. The wind up stress is real. ;_; )

A mode with pre-built modsets for the equipment you own (something DE have already implemented for Duviri, mind you,) would not only close loopholes, but also make it easier to enforce strengths and weaknesses of specific weapons and weapon types. Again, not something I'd want to see enforced on the main game, because I also enjoying seeing how hard I can break Steel Path Survival with my Kullervo and Dual Ichor Incarnon combination. But having somewhere to go for a different sort of challenge, where nobody has access to certain 'quality of life' improvements that we can take for granted, would also be a nice option to have. And I think with the setup that DE already undertook putting builds together for Duviri Circuit equipment, it likely wouldn't need as much set-up as a lot of other options would.

 

To be honest, my guesstimation was mostly based on how long an Archon fight took me running what I used to consider my best damage-dealing weapon, (a Rubico Prime with Riven that I used for Eidolon hunting,) versus using a Phenmor with the kind of standard mods you would expect and Xata's Whisper for added aim assist. The former obviously hit hard, but given I was running it solo (because I didn't want to drag a team down, as the DPS was veeeery much a matter of aim,) it took me about a half hour or so of frantically jumping around and landing headshots while the boss healed regularly. :P The Phenmor just melted the boss and the fight took all of five minutes, most of which was spent doing that in-between bit with the double-locked gate. Former arguably made for a more exciting fight, but the latter is realistically the route I'd take on a weekly basis to nab my shard so I can spend the rest of my time Grendel-balling around a mission trying to see how many enemies I can run over.

The irony is that guesstimating what an average run would look like would be virtually impossible to figure out on Public Squad, given half the squad would obliterate the boss, and the other half might be armed with whiffle bats. The power scaling in this game is vast, and the questlines the game needs completed in order to access these endgame modes require a lot less 'oomph' than the modes themselves might require, meaning you have players who had no real difficulty finishing The New War or Whispers in the Walls, but are by no means kitted out to contribute to a Netracell, Steel Path or Archon hunt yet. 

(Speaking here as someone who was in exactly that position back in December. :P I literally cheesed Netracells in Operator mode using environmental kills, it took me ages.)

The main thing I was thinking about the filter is that, if someone knows what they’re built for, then the odds of accidental sidelining would be vastly reduced because they know that they’ve made an Arbitration build versus a level 80 build versus an SP build, and know that if they’re built for SP and drop down into Arbitrations, they’re gonna have to keep an eye out for whether they’re sidelining their teams. Like, sure, it’s not reasonable to expect content-perfect builds, but it’s fairly easy for someone to identify if they’re going to sideline someone else, it’s not exactly rocket surgery.

It’s true that if the filter is trying to be too specific, then it’d be a nightmare to try and implement; hence the trust in people using their sense of judgement to provide wiggle room but still make it clear what expectations would be.

I do think the pre-build idea has merit, though I’m not such a fan of how strict it would probably feel; part of the enjoyment comes from making a personal build do what you want, and though I do kind of wonder if bad apples need to be taught a lesson by the developers themselves, I’d rather just match with someone else who’s also looking to match for some gameplay alongside, and put trust in people having good intentions

Edited February 9 by Merkranire