A random thought on the riven system/

[The0nly1]

- I wish that I could sacrifice a riven mod (riven mod A) to another riven mod (riven mod B) to allow riven mod B to get the same "positives and negative" as the "sacrificed" riven mod A (the stats numbers will change according to the disposition of riven mod B).

 

For example: I have a G-Roll Zarr (weapon A) riven (many people I asked said so) that has Crit chance/crit dmg/multishot as the positives AND + recoil as the negative -> I wish I could let a riven mod of another weapon (weapon B) "eat" the Zarr riven and get the same positives and negative (again: the stat numbers will change according to the disposition of Weapon B)

 

- I'm losing a riven mod for this exchange so it's kinda fair right? Can we implement this into the game?

[Zakkhar]

This is not Diablo where you min max your items bonuses in order to reach the final build. You are completely missing the point of Riven mods.

Been proposed multiple times and will not happen.

[The0nly1]

14 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

This is not Diablo where you min max your items bonuses in order to reach the final build. You are completely missing the point of Riven mods.

Been proposed multiple times and will not happen.

So to my understanding: "a Riven mod is an OPTIONAL mod to help boost a weapon's performance and a riven mod that has stats that are extremely compatible with a weapon is desired".  - Can you tell me what I am completely not understanding correctly here? - Aren't riven mods/archon shards/... and the likes already step into the point of min/maxing stuff?

- And why is it not about reaching the final build? I thought most, if not all, of us are always aiming for the "best" build possible that fits our play styles -> isn't that "reaching a final build"? - OR do you mean that I'm supposed to reach my final build by NOT min/maxing?

The example about my Zarr riven is just an example. I may just want a specific riven stats (that may not be desired by others nor the stats are the best rolls) on the weapon that I like and I stick with it as part of my "final" build.

=> It would be great if you could share your thoughts about the point of riven mods and  "reaching the final build" part.

Your insights would be appreciated

Edited March 5 by The0nly1
add more things

[Zakkhar]

Exactly that. Whole riven system is OPTIONAL. You are able to create proper builds for your weapons with available mods and arcanes. It is also somewhat "probability-based lucky draw feature", which kinda makes it risky in China.

In Diablo your prefixes and suffixes on the items are what makes a build work (base stats are the same for every item on that item lvl). You want some defensive stats like elemental resistances/armor and you want some offensive stats like boosting your core ability of choice or some completely original effects that synergise with your playstyle. Getting the right gear for the builds to work on higher and higher levels is half of the Diablo gameplay and min-maxing those is absolutely MANDATORY. Else you may just die or not be able to clear the "rift" in time to get the rewards.

In Warframe this is not the case. We have mod based system, not item based system. Rivens were (at least orginally) suppose to make unpopular weapons competitive. Popular weapons can just pop cookie cutter meta build and go to town on lvl 9999 SP. It is players who started to use these to min-max the meta weapons and the players created massive plat market for those. DE doesnt seem to be very happy with the route it went and most likely will not put more wood to that fire with any changes to the system.

Edited March 6 by Zakkhar

[The0nly1]

10 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Exactly that. Whole riven system is OPTIONAL. You are able to create proper builds for your weapons with available mods and arcanes. It is also somewhat "probability-based lucky draw feature", which kinda makes it risky in China.

In Diablo your prefixes and suffixes on the items are what makes a build work (base stats are the same for every item on that item lvl). You want some defensive stats like elemental resistances/armor and you want some offensive stats like boosting your core ability of choice or some completely original effects that synergise with your playstyle. Getting the right gear for the builds to work on higher and higher levels is half of the Diablo gameplay and min-maxing those is absolutely MANDATORY. Else you may just die or not be able to clear the "rift" in time to get the rewards.

In Warframe this is not the case. We have mod based system, not item based system. Rivens were (at least orginally) suppose to make unpopular weapons competitive. Popular weapons can just pop cookie cutter meta build and go to town on lvl 9999 SP. It is players who started to use these to min-max the meta weapons and the players created massive plat market for those. DE doesnt seem to be very happy with the route it went and most likely will not put more wood to that fire with any changes to the system.

I see. Thanks for your insight. I agree with you that the riven market usually has some crazy pricing and delusional riven sharks (people who put their rivens at sky-high prices despite the stats being mediocre at best) are not good for the game. Regarding the players who min-max their meta weaps, I don't think it's their fault cause they just utilize a system that the game introduced (if these players advocate that using rivens is mandatory then it is a problem). 

I understand what you said and I feel you, friend. Your insight is quite interesting so if u can humor me more then it would be great!

If, as I suggested, you can sacrifice a riven to let another riven have its stats, would it be possible for the crazy riven market prices to drop because it is more likely for players to have the stats that they like (again, the Zarr is just an example, it can be a sub-optimal riven but the player just likes it). Yes, many players will still have to buy a riven if they can't open one for the weapon they like. But given the fact that riven slivers are ez to get these days and Teshin throws a riven at you nearly every week or so + players are able to get adequate stats or just simply any stats they like (meme stats, stats that are not desired but fit their playstyles) by sacrificing another riven, would this make the entire riven market decrease in their pricing?

- This is just me want to see more of your views so if u like, u can answer. If not, it's alright. Thanks for the friendly discussion!! <3

 

[Zakkhar]

14 hours ago, The0nly1 said:

If, as I suggested, you can sacrifice a riven to let another riven have its stats, would it be possible for the crazy riven market prices to drop because it is more likely for players to have the stats that they like (again, the Zarr is just an example, it can be a sub-optimal riven but the player just likes it). Yes, many players will still have to buy a riven if they can't open one for the weapon they like. But given the fact that riven slivers are ez to get these days and Teshin throws a riven at you nearly every week or so + players are able to get adequate stats or just simply any stats they like (meme stats, stats that are not desired but fit their playstyles) by sacrificing another riven, would this make the entire riven market decrease in their pricing?

- This is just me want to see more of your views so if u like, u can answer. If not, it's alright. Thanks for the friendly discussion!! <3

Prices are not the problem. Players treating the system differently than Devs intended are (you are one of them). Adding this feature may drop the prices, but it will be developing the unintended usage of the system and transforming it from Optional to practically Mandatory. So called "god rolls" are meant to be a rarity. Making them easier to obtain breaks the game balance.

Edited March 7 by Zakkhar

[Raikh]

On 2024-03-06 at 4:26 PM, Zakkhar said:

Rivens were (at least orginally) suppose to make unpopular weapons competitive. Popular weapons can just pop cookie cutter meta build and go to town on lvl 9999 SP.

The wording is pretty funny to me and it may not be your fault because DE balances more around popularity than power. But this implies that popular = powerful and unpopular = not powerful and this is untrue. There is definitely a correlation, things become popular because they are powerful but a lot more factors play into popularity than just power.

On 2024-03-06 at 4:26 PM, Zakkhar said:

In Warframe this is not the case. We have mod based system, not item based system.

Its definitely unconventional for Warframe to have randomized Stats and Rivens are an outlier in that regard. But if you give players access to high powered, essentially customizable Mods and fully expect players just to have a little silly fun with it instead of min-maxing the living S#&amp;&#036; out of that system I'm not sure I can call that naivety anymore. And I honestly doubt they didn't have an inkling what would happen with Rivens. At best they underestimated the economical impact, which is indeed degenerate, but also has plenty precedents in other big online games.

6 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Making them easier to obtain breaks the game balance.

I'm pretty sure the power balancing factor of Rivens is the Disposition. All the RNG does is make you grind longer or pay more. And If I wasn't supposed to commit that much to Rivens why can I just get 320k Kuva a week w/o even directly farming for it? DE may not be super happy with how Rivens turned out but they have created pretty clear incentives to engage with the system as some form of endgame and yet another power chase. The scarcity of "god rolls" is definitely by design but it has very little to do with breaking the game.

On 2024-03-05 at 5:59 AM, The0nly1 said:

- I wish that I could sacrifice a riven mod (riven mod A) to another riven mod (riven mod B) to allow riven mod B to get the same "positives and negative" as the "sacrificed" riven mod A (the stats numbers will change according to the disposition of riven mod B).

Valence Fusion for Rivens sounds good superificially but it has some less amazing implications. For one it overcomplicates the system even more because you can't detach it from the player market. Secondly and most importantly it makes any good+ roll of any wepaon into a desirable roll for the best/most expensive weapon. So even if the top end gets a little cheaper, Riven prices across the board will probably rise pretty significantly. And worst of all, you disincentivize players from keeping and using Rivens for less popular stuff because they could just be turned into something thats more valuable.

I'm all for reducing the RNG of Riven rerolls or make the process of getting a Riven you can be satisfied with more reliable but I don't think the proposed idea does that in a way that reall improves the system as a whole and just further emphasizes some of its most glaring problems.

Edited March 7 by Raikh

[Zakkhar]

42 minutes ago, Raikh said:

On 2024-03-06 at 4:26 PM, Zakkhar said:

Rivens were (at least orginally) suppose to make unpopular weapons competitive. Popular weapons can just pop cookie cutter meta build and go to town on lvl 9999 SP.

The wording is pretty funny to me and it may not be your fault because DE balances more around popularity than power. But this implies that popular = powerful and unpopular = not powerful and this is untrue. There is definitely a correlation, things become popular because they are powerful but a lot more factors play into popularity than just power.

The wording is just fine. I havent used the word power or any equivalent even once. It is entirely your idea to introduce it. I did not imply anything either. This, again, is completely made up by you.

42 minutes ago, Raikh said:

I'm pretty sure the balancing factor of Rivens is the Disposition.

It is part of the balancing system but not the only one. Others are:

1. amount of existing weapons, diluting the pool of possible unveils - making certain amount of unveiled rivens simply unusable for anything other than transmute or meme builds
2. amount of positive (17 for primary/secondary, 16 for melee) and negative (15 for primary/secondary, 13 for melee) stats possible on a weapon as well as varied stat ranges of those stats. Some of those stats are, even though seen as positive by the system, nearly useless and definately useless compared to normal mods. Some have zero impact on certain weapons (+slash on slashless weapon or +crit on low cc/cd) weapons. Similarly some negatives do more harm than good.
3. possible combinations of 2 pos, 3 pos, 2 pos/1 neg, 3pos/1neg, where 3 useful stat pos and 1 harmless neg are ideal

2 and 3 can ONLY be changed by rerolling the whole Riven and it will change them indepedently of each other.

Kuva needed for rerolling is hardly a limiting factor or part of the balancing system currently considering how many easy kuva farms are present.

You want to put it on its head by removing crucial part of the balancing system. Rarity. If getting the exact right riven requires terrific luck or tone of grinding & a bit of luck, most players view this system as OPTIONAL (as intended) because they either have no luck or do not want to do a lot of grinding for miniscule results. If you change the system and make the exact right riven obtainable in straight correlation to the amount of grinding, you are substantially reducing or even removing the luck factor. And that will cause the exact same players to pursue this because suddenly it is within reach, It becomes MANDATORY, just like maxing mods and weapon arcanes.

Yes, DE wants players prone to hazard to grind kuva and roll rivens untill they hit lucky roll because that makes them play the game. If luck stops being a factor the prone to hazard players may be gone, because suddenly there is little to no hazard involved, but it may also make casual players revolt - because all of a sudden they got another mandatory grind. Not to mention time to get the lucky roll drastically shortens, because the luck factor is removed. How this may affect whole population in-game time, I have no idea. Too many uknown factors, really,

Anyway, this discussion is great, but like I said this change as been proposed multitude of times and the threads either die or DE says: "no way".

Edited March 7 by Zakkhar

[Raikh]

16 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

The wording is just fine. I havent used the word power or any equivalent even once. It is entirely your idea to introduce it. I did not imply anything either. This, again, is completely made up by you.

You may not have used the word "power" but you referred to making weapons competitive and killing 9999 SP enemies, which are power related aspects. A weapon's popularity isn't whats enabling it to kill level cap enemies.

19 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

You want to put it on its head by removing crucial part of the balancing system. Rarity. If getting the exact right riven requires terrific luck or tone of grinding & a bit of luck, most players view this system as OPTIONAL (as intended) because they either have no luck or do not want to do a lot of grinding for miniscule results.

Its a matter of degree, really. Both in what someone thinks is acceptable in order to pursue power and how much power is required to make it worth pursuing inherently. I honestly think the RNG involved in getting a Riven for a weapon you want is a much larger detractor from the attractiveness of Rivens than the roll rng for the average player, simply because they likely have to enter the Riven market to get them.
Low Dispo Rivens may need very good rolls to be worthwhile but there are plenty of strong mid to high Dispo Weapons (Duviri Incarnons chief among them] where its almost a non-effort to get a sizable power increase out of a Riven once you actually obtain it, even if its not remotely close to a "god roll".
So I do not believe that somehow making desirable Stats a bit more obtainable is gonna turn the system on its head and turns it into some menace ruining the game. Specifically because I'm not in favor of this threads suggestion nor have I stated explicit ways to how or to which degree I'd like to see changes occur.
 

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, Raikh said:

A weapon's popularity isn't whats enabling it to kill level cap enemies.

It doesnt. But being able to kill level cap enemies surely makes a weapon plenty popular. Add a youtuber showcasing killing lvl cap enemies  and it makes it even more popular.

Edited March 7 by Zakkhar

[Raikh]

42 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

It doesnt. But being able to kill level cap enemies surely makes a weapon plenty popular. Add a youtuber showcasing killing lvl cap enemies  and it makes it even more popular.

Oh, for sure. But its also inevitably limited to a certain subset of Weapons that get popularized, especially in a game with as many options as in Warframe. I'd even dare say that its been quite refreshing to (re-)explore the game after a break and find out that the popularity meta is not nearly as high on a pedestal as the most popular opinions might imply.

[The0nly1]

Thanks for all the great inputs gentlemen. It's been great discussing with you all and seeing you guys discuss with each other. Love the civilized discussion! Much love and happy farming to you all!

P.S: If anyone else sees this and also want to share your thoughts => WELCOME!!!

 

[Redrigoth]

wish rivens had some bad luck protection like letting you ban a stat from appearing as a bonus every 10 rolls. Or consuming an extra 500 kuva per roll per banned stat up to 6 stats

Edited March 13 by Redrigoth