I really want a horse, but we have to look at alternative movement first

[WindShadow970]

As I said here, a look into alternative movement systems should be done before I start screaming for Dagath to be able to ride Rakhali.

Warframe's base movement system is really good and a lot if not all tilesets and areas are designed to allow the player to indulge themselves in space ninja excess. Offering an alternative to this is hard, very hard and is exclusively ventured into when fantasy immersion dictates it (Titania (Archwing), Yareli (Kdrive), Railjack, Necramechs). I want to look at Titania and Yareli since their alternative movement is in constant direct competition with regular movement. In these two instances there are also arsenal tradeoffs which will be looked at as well.

Titania (Razorwing)

• Uses the archwing movement system
• Forfeits parkour for 360 flight
• Forfeit your arsenal for exalted dual pistols and an exalted archmelee
• Shrinks you making you naturally harder to hit on top of the -50% hit chance on you

I remember when Titania was helplessly bashing her face into walls, she and Archwing have come a long way since those times. Razorwing offers her the most precise aerial movement of any Warframe and the reduced size makes taking advantage of this possible (she ends up with more space to fly in than if she were regular size).

Razorwing also allows Titania to get to and hold advantageous aerial firing angles better than anyone else.

The exalted pistols are very good in spite of exalted limitations (access to arcanes) able to compete with your regular weaponry, the melee being bound to the archmelee system is not very good because archmelee is not very good.

One request though would be for razorflies to be moddable companions because the full moon tribute buff is pointless for her when she's in razorwing. Otherwise Razorwing in it's current state is a good alternative to regular parkour.

Yareli (Merulina)

• Uses the Kdrive movement system
• Removes movement locks from her abilities
• Restricts you to only your secondary weapon
• Increases ground speed, jump height
• Combat roll is about the equivalent of a horizontal bullet jump
• Knockdown, ragdoll and stagger immune, gain 90% damage reduction (it's more of redirection to Merulina's health but hey same outcome)
• Yareli cannot fall off Merulina in any way

Kdrives and by extension Merulina were built around doing aerial tricks, a bit of harmless showboating fun. That brings two issues for Merulina though, they're harmless so of no use in combat and most tiles in Warframe have very limited headroom (and of course those areas weren't designed for Kdrive jumping and flipping around, only for Warframe jumping and flipping around). This diminishes the advantage/potency of having increased jump height.

Standing atop Merulina (or any Kdrive for that matter) changes your aiming angle just enough that it can throw you off what you have otherwise become very accustomed to in regular combat, it can be adjusted to but it can be jarring. It could be somewhat mediated by crouching but oddly you can't crouch while moving, which would be an advantage for a Kdrive since they don't slide and lose momentum (DE please allow us to crouch while moving on Kdrives when we have a secondary equipped). This standing also makes Yareli taller which means she's more likely to get stuck on the top of doorways if she happened to be jumping, maybe this gets indirectly fixed by the sticky corners fix coming but I just wanted to put it out there.

Forfeiting parkour means you forfeit aim gliding, which makes it even harder to take advantage of Merulina's increased jump height (now this also applies to areas with the open air needed to jump full height) since you descend at full speed, this is somewhat desirable for regular moving around and some tricking but not for shooting guns (DE please allow aim gliding on Kdrives when equipped with a secondary, yes this will inevitably be exploited somehow for chaining tricks but it's ultimately harmless).

There is a turn delay on Kdrives (it's most easily observed if you quickly turn your camera 180 degrees), I'm guessing this is there for feel, widening turn circles and to differentiate it from the twitch like responsiveness of Warframes and Archwing. But the thing is, responsiveness is king in combat and these delays add up to you running into walls, oddly constricted movement and a flimsy feel in combat. The bit of drift on Kdrive can stay as it allows Yareli to very naturally maintain her passive in combat.

All of the above ultimately forces Yareli to stay grounded most of the time in order to fight, not necessarily a bad thing but it does then pose the question of "Does Merulina support grounded secondary gunplay?" and the answer is generally no. Most of the secondary gunplay support is facilitated by other parts of her kit but not the part that locks her into such a state in the first place.

I feel that the tradeoff should be "Either have full access to your arsenal or restrict yourself to just your secondary but you become a dedicated, fierce secondary weapons gunslinger (non turret Mesa)".

Merulina Guardian (augment), should be innate to Merulina really. (the story of many an augment really).

Some grounded trick/feat/action system should in place to allow for meaningful interactions with Merulina and the rest of Yareli's kit. I'm thinking of anything too outlandish, some things like rolling through Riptide giving your secondary a guaranteed cold proc, being able to pick up a Sea Snare and apply it to the next enemy hit, dismounting leaves a screen of Merulina's membrane that can be shot through to increase secondary explosion radii (maybe amps too) where applicable. There is potential here, but it is admittedly a bit of work. It is noted that given the nature of Warframe's combat exceedingly complex chains of actions will quickly tire most players, which means such interactions or actions should remain fairly simplistic (probably why Octavia always tends towards spam crouch simulator instead of more intricate rhythmic actions).

Now to sneak in some general stuff outside Merulina. I'd like Sea Snares to trigger cold procs on affected targets since Yareli deals in secondary crits and for them to apply to all enemies caught in Riptide. Riptide's pull/vortex should be persistent over it's lifetime( it is in actual fact, but the pull range seems to be much smaller after initial cast), I also feel that the disperse on burst is more of a detriment to Yareli I think it should go. Hot take, Aqua Blades do nothing for Yareli, they're completely dissociated from Yareli's general plan of "CC, then shoot with a secondary", it should be a made a generic Helminth ability (in fact I think abilities that don't work out and get replaced for their original kits should be put there for players to find later use for, say if Razor Gyre gets binned on Caliban in future put in the Helminth so Revenant can have more spin with his spin) and replaced with a 3rd that better aligns with what she wants to do,

In conclusion Merulina is unrefined in it's application, as a result most players would opt to ignore it until they feel they absolutely need the damage reduction at which point they don't feel great about it and quickly yearn for regular movement.

What does all this mean for hypothetical Rakhali?

Kaithes already exist in game, however since they share similar properties with Kdrives how Rakhali may function may have to be different from Kaithes in Duviri

• Flying is out of the question
• Has to meaningfully interact with how Dagath functions
• There has to be good reasons beyond immersion for the player to ride the horse
• Geometry interaction has to be thoroughly tested and smoothed out
• Vertical movement control is still important even though we aren't flying

For interacting with Dagath's kit, creating a whole set of actions to interact with Doom would be a lot of work (but it would be nice), I would propose that riding Rakhali instead alters how Dagath's abilities function. For example Wyrd Scythes could have Dagath perform one large radial sweep with a single larger Wyrd Scythe, Doom could have Rakhali rear up then stomp the ground suspending enemies instead of staggering, and Cavalry's formation could be changed...maybe, I'm just spouting ideas.

If I'm not mistaken, I don't have the rank 9 Riding Duviri intrinsic so please correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to only be able use a secondary while riding. Dagath, given that she was trained to ride a horse for combat purposes, should be able to use a primary on her horse as well.  (melee would be the dream but there's a lot of melee weapon classes that all swing very differently from each other, primaries are much simpler in comparison).

Lastly, I wouldn't dismiss the idea of actually becoming Rakhali instead and just horsin' around.

If you read all this, incredible, if you didn't I don't blame you really. In either case, discussion is open and welcome...I want muh horse.

 

Edited March 11 by WindShadow970
Riptide's pull effect does persist over it's lifetime, however the range of the persistent pull is pretty small

[quxier]

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

Necramechs

I think those should be included as well.

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

I want to look at Titania and Yareli since their alternative movement is in constant direct competition with regular movement. In these two instances there are also arsenal tradeoffs which will be looked at as well.

You have to look at base version - kdrive & archwing (in open world, archwing-specific missions are like titania's). You can turn it off via melee (so you cannot use melee) and enemies can turn off your kdrive/archwing. I remember hating archwing in Deimos because there were some enemies that constantly turn off archwing.

 

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

the melee being bound to the archmelee system is not very good because archmelee is not very good.

IMHO archmelee having "lock on" mode is something unusual. They could work around this concept (add new combos that, for example, add block combo that attack all enemies within radius quicker but have slight cooldown OR forward block that attack enemies in front of you, from N meters; add havies, add arcanes etc).

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

Kdrives and by extension Merulina were built around doing aerial tricks, a bit of harmless showboating fun. That brings two issues for Merulina though, they're harmless so of no use in combat and most tiles in Warframe have very limited headroom (and of course those areas weren't designed for Kdrive jumping and flipping around, only for Warframe jumping and flipping around). This diminishes the advantage/potency of having increased jump height.

 

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

Forfeiting parkour means you forfeit aim gliding

no rolling as well - no rolling guard

no slams - you have clunky & slow slam, melee slam is better/faster

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

Some grounded trick/feat/action system should in place to allow for meaningful interactions with Merulina and the rest of Yareli's kit. I'm thinking of anything too outlandish, some things like rolling through Riptide giving your secondary a guaranteed cold proc, being able to pick up a Sea Snare and apply it to the next enemy hit, dismounting leaves a screen of Merulina's membrane that can be shot through to increase secondary explosion radii (maybe amps too) where applicable. There is potential here, but it is admittedly a bit of work. It is noted that given the nature of Warframe's combat exceedingly complex chains of actions will quickly tire most players, which means such interactions or actions should remain fairly simplistic (probably why Octavia always tends towards spam crouch simulator instead of more intricate rhythmic actions).

Not to mention to do all tricks you need to un-equip 2nd-ary.

I've posted about certain tricks doing certain things like:

- grind lives fire path (+status)

- holding board applies cold status to enemies bellow

- rotating board may do some damage + status (gas?)

etc.

Then you have mods. For example grinding now lives electric path .

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

Flying is out of the question

I disagree. Why flying is not good?

I think it need even better flying system to compete with archwing. In Duviri, Kates are nice. In open world I don't think they would be good.

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

•  
• Has to meaningfully interact with how Dagath functions

The problem with her kit is it's very co-dependend. For example you don't just cast 4th but 2nd as well (to armor strip, maybe even 1st). One interaction I would see is that she can have longer duration on 4th and other "Kates" follow her (moves with her, on both sides).

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

For interacting with Dagath's kit, creating a whole set of actions to interact with Doom would be a lot of work (but it would be nice), I would propose that riding Rakhali instead alters how Dagath's abilities function. For example Wyrd Scythes could have Dagath perform one large radial sweep with a single larger Wyrd Scythe, Doom could have Rakhali rear up then stomp the ground suspending enemies instead of staggering,

That's interesting but I"m not sure if it would be great, especially Wyrd scythe. You want to have more enemies so attacking one (or small group) would be nerf. However if you could do both via other buttons (e.g. 1 would cast Wyrd scythe, E (melee key) would do that "larger Wyrd scythe").

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

If I'm not mistaken, I don't have the rank 9 Riding Duviri intrinsic so please correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to only be able use a secondary while riding. Dagath, given that she was trained to ride a horse for combat purposes, should be able to use a primary on her horse as well.  (melee would be the dream but there's a lot of melee weapon classes that all swing very differently from each other, primaries are much simpler in comparison).

I think there were bug with K-drive where you could use 1st-ary weapon. I think 2nd-ary only is for balance. Don't cite me here.

[WindShadow970]

13 minutes ago, quxier said:

You have to look at base version - kdrive & archwing (in open world, archwing-specific missions are like titania's). You can turn it off via melee (so you cannot use melee) and enemies can turn off your kdrive/archwing. I remember hating archwing in Deimos because there were some enemies that constantly turn off archwing.

I could but I only looked at scenarios where those mechanics are used in regular missions because that's the core of the practicality problem that's always brought up with these systems: how would they work in regular missions.

Every open world has an anti air something trying to take you down, Deimos is just more noticeable because one of those anti air units is constantly airborne so it has an easier time getting to you.

17 minutes ago, quxier said:

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

Necramechs

I think those should be included as well.

The problem is straight forward though, they're much too tall for most tiles and too slow for the run and gun flow of Warframe. If we had more singular big problems to deal with like Void Angels, Eidolons, Fragmented Ones, Orb Vallis Orbs then their use could be better justified as in those more drawn out battles they tend to work well.

On a side note, I wish we got more Void Angels, different styles like Fragmented Ones to shake things up.

23 minutes ago, quxier said:

I disagree. Why flying is not good?

In regular gameplay, there's no room to fly effectively unless you're Titania. The flight model on Kaithes is also far less responsive and precise compared to archwing.

25 minutes ago, quxier said:

The problem with her kit is it's very co-dependend.

Dagath's kit is built and functions exclusively around Doom. I don't see it as a problem but just how she's designed like how Limbo is built exclusively around the Rift or Nidus with his stacks.

 

34 minutes ago, quxier said:

You want to have more enemies so attacking one (or small group) would be nerf. However if you could do both via other buttons (e.g. 1 would cast Wyrd scythe, E (melee key) would do that "larger Wyrd scythe").

I don't agree, depending on the range of the sweep it may be better for coverage all around Dagath, current Wyrd Scythes struggle a little with enemies to the side and behind.

[quxier]

16 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

55 minutes ago, quxier said:

2 hours ago, WindShadow970 said:

Necramechs

I think those should be included as well.

The problem is straight forward though, they're much too tall for most tiles and too slow for the run and gun flow of Warframe. If we had more singular big problems to deal with like Void Angels, Eidolons, Fragmented Ones, Orb Vallis Orbs then their use could be better justified as in those more drawn out battles they tend to work well.

Slow as cannot change direction as often as frame? Then yes. Otherwise they are not so slow with just running/dashing.

18 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

56 minutes ago, quxier said:

I disagree. Why flying is not good?

In regular gameplay, there's no room to fly effectively unless you're Titania. The flight model on Kaithes is also far less responsive and precise compared to archwing.

There is sometimes not even room for horses. Disabling it would just make it like Merulina + some options. It's option that you can use IF YOU WANT. I see no reason to disable it.

Instead of removing feature, they should fix/change them.

21 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

59 minutes ago, quxier said:

The problem with her kit is it's very co-dependend.

Dagath's kit is built and functions exclusively around Doom. I don't see it as a problem but just how she's designed like how Limbo is built exclusively around the Rift or Nidus with his stacks.

So you see no problem when your horse does X but it's useless because you haven't done Y & Z? Well, I'm going to say that it won't be great. You are trying to make us use vehicle that ban some stuffs. Instead of making it better you think it's ok to have it more complicate for no reasons. Not many people will nerf themself for little reasons.

24 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

You want to have more enemies so attacking one (or small group) would be nerf. However if you could do both via other buttons (e.g. 1 would cast Wyrd scythe, E (melee key) would do that "larger Wyrd scythe").

I don't agree, depending on the range of the sweep it may be better for coverage all around Dagath, current Wyrd Scythes struggle a little with enemies to the side and behind.

Wyrd scythes has 2 casts. One is what you touch. Later it's send X scythes. You are nerfing it to "touch one".

[WindShadow970]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Slow as cannot change direction as often as frame? Then yes. Otherwise they are not so slow with just running/dashing

But they can't keep up with a generic Warframe in a straight line either, which is a critical factor that other vehicle options pass comfortably.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

There is sometimes not even room for horses. Disabling it would just make it like Merulina + some options. It's option that you can use IF YOU WANT. I see no reason to disable it.

Instead of removing feature, they should fix/change them

There is no point if it won't see use, which I guarantee will happen when Kaithe flight exists alongside Archwing in any capacity. You're better off optimising it's grounded capabilities instead. If Yareli is anything to go by, even if Rakhali could fly you're still spending 99% of the time grounded because most areas can't support it (and any vertical movement is more efficiently handled by bullet jump or void sling) and the 1% flying you do find yourself doing you'd rather use an archwing (it's the very issue Kdrives have compared to Archwings in open worlds, there is nothing you can do on a Kdrive that can't be done much better on an Archwing). There is simply little purpose to Kaithes flying outside of Duviri because far better tools exist.

It would be more productive to suggest incentives for flight to justify keeping it, instead of keeping it for the sake of it.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

So you see no problem when your horse does X but it's useless because you haven't done Y & Z? Well, I'm going to say that it won't be great. You are trying to make us use vehicle that ban some stuffs. Instead of making it better you think it's ok to have it more complicate for no reasons. Not many people will nerf themself for little reasons.

1. I did not add any further complexity to how Dagath functions

2. By X I know you mean Dagath's 4, it far from useless on it's own. It has absurdly high base damage, it only seems "useless" because enemy armor is a problematic multiplicative EHP modifier which is why the Doom effect it has exists. "So why doesn't it strip armor baseline?", because the average player would have no reason to engage with the rest of the kit at all, you would build strength, efficiency, cast speed and spam 4 all day...which would be terrible.

3. The point about the vehicle is exactly why I started this discussion in the first place, it's a problem I immediately realised needed to be addressed. Players would need incentives beyond novelty to use Rakhali.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Wyrd scythes has 2 casts. One is what you touch. Later it's send X scythes. You are nerfing it to "touch one"

It isn't a nerf, you're not forced to be mounted you still have access to base Wyrd Scythes on foot. The attempt here is bring a noticeable change in how Dagath's abilities work due to being mounted, sticking to how it works at base results in the question "Well, why bother being mounted then? There's no difference."

So from my view either being mounted alters some property of existing abilities in a way exclusive to it or the horse has to bring something(s) completely new to the kit besides being a horse.

[quxier]

45 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Slow as cannot change direction as often as frame? Then yes. Otherwise they are not so slow with just running/dashing

But they can't keep up with a generic Warframe in a straight line either, which is a critical factor that other vehicle options pass comfortably.

Maybe not Speedster frames (Guass, titania etc) but they can keep up "in straight line" with frames. Sure, they have stamina but at the time you are out of Stamina it's time where Speedsters plays bigger role.

48 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

So you see no problem when your horse does X but it's useless because you haven't done Y & Z? Well, I'm going to say that it won't be great. You are trying to make us use vehicle that ban some stuffs. Instead of making it better you think it's ok to have it more complicate for no reasons. Not many people will nerf themself for little reasons.

1. I did not add any further complexity to how Dagath functions

You didn't add but you accept those overcomplexity.

49 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

 

2. By X I know you mean Dagath's 4, it far from useless on it's own. It has absurdly high base damage

Yes, it has some damage but so does the 1st. Bigger? Sure, but still not enough. Ability needs more than just "some" damage.

52 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

it only seems "useless" because enemy armor is a problematic multiplicative EHP modifier which is why the Doom effect it has exists.

I find ability "not great" if it doesn't work on certain enemies or is very weak. With Eximus we have some abilities that affect them somehow (e.g. Yareli/1st boosting damage).

55 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

"So why doesn't it strip armor baseline?", because the average player would have no reason to engage with the rest of the kit at all, you would build strength, efficiency, cast speed and spam 4 all day...which would be terrible.

If you need another ability to have reason to use 1st then there is something wrong with such ability.

Abilities need to have reason to be used on their own. If you are on 100+, especially sp (or against eximus) then there is hardly reason to waste 100 energy alone.

Armor strip can be another ability. Imagine 2nd giving you armor strip, little bit damage boost (it's not big). Then you can spread it via 1st (I don't remember details). Then if you need big damage you use 4th. Add some other stuff to 4 and you have synergetic not dependent frame.

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

 

3. The point about the vehicle is exactly why I started this discussion in the first place, it's a problem I immediately realised needed to be addressed. Players would need incentives beyond novelty to use Rakhali.

Before Dagath we thought that we will get some ridable horse. I posted about something about horse combat: charges like wtih horse lance, or quick swipe one side (few enemies, big damage) etc). It wouldn't be huge incentives but it would be still usable and different. At least good enough for non-sp/high levels - just to play around.

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

3 hours ago, quxier said:

Wyrd scythes has 2 casts. One is what you touch. Later it's send X scythes. You are nerfing it to "touch one"

It isn't a nerf, you're not forced to be mounted you still have access to base Wyrd Scythes on foot.

It's nerf WHEN YOU ARE MOUNTED.

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

The attempt here is bring a noticeable change in how Dagath's abilities work due to being mounted, sticking to how it works at base results in the question "Well, why bother being mounted then? There's no difference."

Then I  ask another question. Why bother with Wyrd on horse that is weaker when I can use on-foot version that is stronger? No reasons.

You should be able to cast 2 versions. 2nd (modified) should have something distinct. For example when you hit enemy it lives viral field (not too small, not too big) for N second.

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

3 hours ago, quxier said:

There is sometimes not even room for horses. Disabling it would just make it like Merulina + some options. It's option that you can use IF YOU WANT. I see no reason to disable it.

Instead of removing feature, they should fix/change them

There is no point if it won't see use, which I guarantee will happen when Kaithe flight exists alongside Archwing in any capacity. You're better off optimising it's grounded capabilities instead. If Yareli is anything to go by, even if Rakhali could fly you're still spending 99% of the time grounded because most areas can't support it (and any vertical movement is more efficiently handled by bullet jump or void sling) and the 1% flying you do find yourself doing you'd rather use an archwing (it's the very issue Kdrives have compared to Archwings in open worlds, there is nothing you can do on a Kdrive that can't be done much better on an Archwing). There is simply little purpose to Kaithes flying outside of Duviri because far better tools exist.

Are you talking about horse/archwing in normal missions or their frame's version (titania/4 or Dagath's suggestion that she can use her horse)?

In open world archwing is the king. Implementing yet another kdrive is bad choice. We have Kate in open world and it's not great.

As for changing Dagath's ability to be able to ride her horses (without archwing in normal missions) I don't see reasons to disable flying. It may not be useful but it's there if you need it. If you are not using Titania then you have very small number of frames that can fly or hover long enough (e.g. Zephyr, or aimglide/gravity mods). Flying aspect would be something that sets her apart from yet another grounded vehicle.

[Agall]

5 hours ago, quxier said:

I think those should be included as well.

You have to look at base version - kdrive & archwing (in open world, archwing-specific missions are like titania's). You can turn it off via melee (so you cannot use melee) and enemies can turn off your kdrive/archwing. I remember hating archwing in Deimos because there were some enemies that constantly turn off archwing.

 

IMHO archmelee having "lock on" mode is something unusual. They could work around this concept (add new combos that, for example, add block combo that attack all enemies within radius quicker but have slight cooldown OR forward block that attack enemies in front of you, from N meters; add havies, add arcanes etc).

 

no rolling as well - no rolling guard

no slams - you have clunky & slow slam, melee slam is better/faster

Not to mention to do all tricks you need to un-equip 2nd-ary.

I've posted about certain tricks doing certain things like:

- grind lives fire path (+status)

- holding board applies cold status to enemies bellow

- rotating board may do some damage + status (gas?)

etc.

Then you have mods. For example grinding now lives electric path .

I disagree. Why flying is not good?

I think it need even better flying system to compete with archwing. In Duviri, Kates are nice. In open world I don't think they would be good.

The problem with her kit is it's very co-dependend. For example you don't just cast 4th but 2nd as well (to armor strip, maybe even 1st). One interaction I would see is that she can have longer duration on 4th and other "Kates" follow her (moves with her, on both sides).

That's interesting but I"m not sure if it would be great, especially Wyrd scythe. You want to have more enemies so attacking one (or small group) would be nerf. However if you could do both via other buttons (e.g. 1 would cast Wyrd scythe, E (melee key) would do that "larger Wyrd scythe").

I think there were bug with K-drive where you could use 1st-ary weapon. I think 2nd-ary only is for balance. Don't cite me here.

I think we just need a Dagath augment that does her #4 as normal, but she mounts on one of the charging kaithes. That then gives her the kaithe to use until dismounted.

[WindShadow970]

6 hours ago, Agall said:

I think we just need a Dagath augment that does her #4 as normal, but she mounts on one of the charging kaithes. That then gives her the kaithe to use until dismounted.

I've grown to dislike delegating all kit improvements to augments, I argue her 3 should be her passive anyway then slot the Kaithe in the 3rd slot.

8 hours ago, quxier said:

You didn't add but you accept those overcomplexity

Because I don't see it as overly complex in the first place.

8 hours ago, quxier said:

I find ability "not great" if it doesn't work on certain enemies or is very weak. With Eximus we have some abilities that affect them somehow (e.g. Yareli/1st boosting damage).

I call that situational, which is fine. Just to clarify for anyone else, Eximus overguard makes eximus units CC immune and no more than that, so any other ability effects are fair game (hence why this functionality has shafted CC frames even more while leaving all other aspects of the game largely unchanged, further pushing a damage/nuke meta)

[quxier]

23 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

8 hours ago, quxier said:

You didn't add but you accept those overcomplexity

Because I don't see it as overly complex in the first place.

It's not complex in general sense. But it's more complex than other abilities. Other abilities strip armor for example with just one button.

25 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

8 hours ago, quxier said:

I find ability "not great" if it doesn't work on certain enemies or is very weak. With Eximus we have some abilities that affect them somehow (e.g. Yareli/1st boosting damage).

I call that situational, which is fine. Just to clarify for anyone else, Eximus overguard makes eximus units CC immune and no more than that, so any other ability effects are fair game (hence why this functionality has shafted CC frames even more while leaving all other aspects of the game largely unchanged, further pushing a damage/nuke meta)

You can armor strip Overguarded enemy. However such units still have overguard so it's still hard to kill (compared to armor stripped hp). Yareli/1 has 2 functions: CC and damage boost. You cannot CC (with Yareli/1) eximus but you can still apply damage boost.