Instantly Knowing Where The Demolisher is Kinda Kills Disruption

[CrownOfShadows]

6 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

The sound doesnt just play once is what I mean. As you approach it repeats, further guiding you to the demo.

.... errr....

.... I'm guessing by "further guiding" what you really meant was something more like 'superfluously repeating what you already knew from the conduit' (your argument), and not 'progressively checking and verifying via sound as you move through the level' (my argument), right?

Surely you aren't saying that you used subsequent beeps to help you choose a path?

[Drachnyn]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb CrownOfShadows:

.... errr....

.... I'm guessing by "further guiding" what you really meant was something more like 'superfluously repeating what you already knew from the conduit' (your argument), and not 'progressively checking and verifying via sound as you move through the level' (my argument), right?

Surely you aren't saying that you used subsequent beeps to help you choose a path?

I dont need extra beeps. However since you have included inexperienced players in this (I dont know why you did that since neither of us are so it cant be relevant for your enjoyment of the game mode) it is relevant. The point is that the sound indicator alone will set you on a direct path towards the demo every time. The new waymarker isnt doing this better, it just allows you to do that without having to rely on the sound. A visual indicator on the same level as the audio indicator will inevitably lead to how disruption works right now. So it doesnt matter if the sound isnt enough to pin point the exact spot on the map the demo is currently running in. It tells you the direction and that is all you need to know to find it. This is why the new waymarker doesnt allow anything that the audio hasnt.

[CrownOfShadows]

4 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

I dont need extra beeps. However since you have included inexperienced players in this (I dont know why you did that since neither of us are so it cant be relevant for your enjoyment of the game mode) it is relevant. The point is that the sound indicator alone will set you on a direct path towards the demo every time. The new waymarker isnt doing this better, it just allows you to do that without having to rely on the sound. A visual indicator on the same level as the audio indicator will inevitably lead to how disruption works right now. So it doesnt matter if the sound isnt enough to pin point the exact spot on the map the demo is currently running in. It tells you the direction and that is all you need to know to find it. This is why the new waymarker doesnt allow anything that the audio hasnt.

I'm including inexperienced players to help you see the difference between sound cues and map knowledge. I'm not sure if it's sinking in, you don't seem to be responding whenever I provide an example.

A visual indicator of the sort that I suggested would not 'inevitably lead' to the current situation, unless you are talking about map memorization, which will happen no matter what if a person plays enough.

Let's try again. If you were at the conduit, on a brand new Corpus tileset that you've never played before and the map could not be pulled up, and the demolisher only gave 2 initial beeps and did not move at all from it's starting position, how long would it take you to find it? The same amount of time as a demolisher on Olympus? Twice as long? Five times as long? Would it take half an hour of map scouring like looking for a medallion would? <---- honesty is key to this thought experiment, so plz don't lie just to be in the right, actually think about it and put yourself in that situation.

[Drachnyn]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb CrownOfShadows:

I'm including inexperienced players to help you see the difference between sound cues and map knowledge. I'm not sure if it's sinking in, you don't seem to be responding whenever I provide an example.

A visual indicator of the sort that I suggested would not 'inevitably lead' to the current situation, unless you are talking about map memorization, which will happen no matter what if a person plays enough.

Let's try again. If you were at the conduit, on a brand new Corpus tileset that you've never played before and the map could not be pulled up, and the demolisher only gave 2 initial beeps and did not move at all from it's starting position, how long would it take you to find it? The same amount of time as a demolisher on Olympus? Twice as long? Five times as long? Would it take half an hour of map scouring like looking for a medallion would? <---- honesty is key to this thought experiment, so plz don't lie just to be in the right, actually think about it and put yourself in that situation.

You have invented a game mode that just isnt disruption with your thought experiment because demos do move and they do repeat their noise. I dont see how that's useful for the discussion. But if the beep is heard from the conduit (which it isnt always on the older bigger maps like lua btw, so the marker equally doesnt show) then it would probably not take long unless you have also massively changed map generation in your made up game mode. This isnt because I am so good at memorizing map layouts (cuz i'm really not that good at it) but because the map generation in disruption is actually fairly simple. There is not much to learn.

If however your game mode featured a map layout like this and we put in the conduit key at A:

Then you would be right. However that's not how the game works.

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, Drachnyn said:

You have invented a game mode that just isnt disruption with your thought experiment because demos do move and they do repeat their noise. I dont see how that's useful for the discussion. But if the beep is heard from the conduit (which it isnt always on the older bigger maps like lua btw, so the marker equally doesnt show) then it would probably not take long unless you have also massively changed map generation in your made up game mode. This isnt because I am so good at memorizing map layouts (cuz i'm really not that good at it) but because the map generation in disruption is actually fairly simple. There is not much to learn.

If however your game mode featured a map layout like this and we put in the conduit key at A:

Then you would be right. However that's not how the game works.

SMH. "it would probably not take long" is such a dodge, why couldn't you just answer honestly?

Fine, whatever, I'll do it for you.

Of course it would take me a lot longer. Especially if it was confusing architecture like Apollo and/or a I made a lot of wrong guesses. Why, because of course, I don't know the map, and I no longer can chase the sound, so I have no freaking clue where it is and I would have to go search pathways one by one, by process of elimination, and since it wasn't moving I'd have to go pretty far down them. Why don't I know where it is?

Because the first 2 beeps were extremely faint due to distance and I couldn't orient, and I don't know which pathways go where. At best, I got a basic hemisphere, that way. At worst, I didn't get anything because they were too faint and got drowned out in the sound of gunfire, or maybe I didn't hear them at all. Great, we got some honesty! Phew! Good god was it painful? Ok, now... finally we can get to the actual point...

Imagine that exact same scenario... except instead of beeping twice you got the new visual cue twice. Of course, it would go pretty quick in comparison. Why? Because the visual cue showed me exactly where it was, twice.

Take away map knowledge (that was the point of this thought experiment) and the difference between the two is obvious; it's a canyon of difference.

Of course this is all theoretical, but there's a point in it, if you care to see it.

[Drachnyn]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb CrownOfShadows:

Because the first 2 beeps were extremely faint due to distance and I couldn't orient, and I don't know which pathways go where. At best, I got a basic hemisphere, that way. At worst, I didn't get anything because they were too faint and got drowned out in the sound of gunfire, or maybe I didn't hear them at all. Great, we got some honesty! Phew! Good god was it painful? Ok, now... finally we can get to the actual point...

The sound being quiet doesnt suddenly jumble the direction and if you are good of hearing then you wont have those troubles about it being too faint or failing to pick up on it through other noise. It's why this is just an accessibility change.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb CrownOfShadows:

Imagine that exact same scenario... except instead of beeping twice you got the new visual cue twice. Of course, it would go pretty quick in comparison. Why? Because the visual cue showed me exactly where it was, twice.

It's a waymarker so it would just show you the door it's coming from. Which is the same information the audio provides.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb CrownOfShadows:

Of course this is all theoretical, but there's a point in it, if you care to see it.

Honestly I dont. You're trying to remove map knowledge out of the equation with your thought expirement but actually you have just created a game mode that isnt disruption. You had to massively nerf the sound information to get to your point. This means you have failed to only remove map knowledge from the equation. I'm against nerfing the sound information btw. I think that would ruin the game mode. This high pace that disruption has is what makes it the best game mode DE has ever put in the game.

[_Anise_]

16 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Tell us, were you exclusively using sound to find the demos before this change?

in lower level content I could just wait on the conduit and brute force the demo down, in harder level content this method can be too slow so I exclusively used sound with my headphones and in-game music disabled to track the demo, spinning the camera 360 it was possible to get an idea which direction the demo was coming.

 

Edited May 10 by _Anise_

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

The sound is not a precise indicator. It helps. It provides essential feedback. It does NOT tell you exactly where the demolisher is.

The visual cue on the other hand does tell you EXACTLY where it is. The visual cue IS superior. It shouldn't be, that's rather the whole point of this thread, but it is.

I don't like that you're dodging the question by trying to say you have no idea how the playerbase played this mode (by using sound or the old icon), I'm pretty sure you know just as well as I do how sound-reliant the general community was. It's a fair point, we don't have stats, and we can't really know how the people around us are experiencing the game, but all the same... surely you've seen people take a wrong turn in disruption before? Surely you saw people make a quick circle around the perimeter to orient? Surely you saw people occasionally fail conduits because they couldn't find the demolisher? Surely you saw other people searching.

It tells you as much as the visual queue, in some cases even better depending on the map. Kuva Fortress for instance with all junctions and corridors rely better on sound still, since you only get a general direction for the visual. And if you move on too fast and the visual ends up behind you it will be lost until you turn again and head back.

As I said, I cannot agree or disagree on the most common approach. I practically have no anecdotal evidence whatsoever outside of the release event, since past that point all my disruptions have practically been solo and soundless. I also wouldnt know why a player would run in the wrong direction etc. since I'm not a mindreader, so no way for me to tell if they made use of the sound, ran without sound and not knowing about the other mechanics or what. I ran it by using the minimap/overlay and if that bugged out I simply stayed put. And if the minimap/overlay didnt bug out it performed as fast as now, if it did bug out it would just be a tedious waiting game, not more of a hunt, interesting or harder. At which point I'd likely just jump out and reload the mission.

So far with the new system I havent had a single bug, so no disruptions in my disruption runs in order to restart.

12 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

that you've never played before and the map could not be pulled up,

I'm not even sure what you try to argue now. Since now you are removing old intended mechanics aswell in order to do something to prove some sort of point. 

Edited May 10 by SneakyErvin

[TeaHands]

I prefer instantly knowing where the Necramechs are in EDA. Especially if there's gonna be shenanigans like adding two of them. They get tanky af and you can't armor strip them.

From what else I've played, it pretty much works the same in other maps. Because I've still managed to miss the Demolyst on Mars even with the change and having no sound on. I just eventually figured out where they were spawning.

[CrownOfShadows]

4 hours ago, TeaHands said:

I prefer instantly knowing where the Necramechs are in EDA. Especially if there's gonna be shenanigans like adding two of them. They get tanky af and you can't armor strip them.

From what else I've played, it pretty much works the same in other maps. Because I've still managed to miss the Demolyst on Mars even with the change and having no sound on. I just eventually figured out where they were spawning.

I don't know how it's possible to miss a demolyst after the change. It would have to start out of range and then you would have to do nothing but run in the opposite direction and never return. As stated in the OP, you can simply take one jump in any direction, and except for a few special cases on Lua, that is enough to locate everywhere that I tested (the only disruption I haven't tested in detail yet is Kuva Fortress). Just sit at the conduit, take one good jump in the direction and you'll see it. If you don't, it's not that way. Otherwise just wait 5 seconds and it will be in range of the conduit. They all work this way now, except the ones that are just instantly in range of the conduit and that don't even require a jump, of which there are a good number on Kappa and Olympus.

Yes, Armatus (EDA) is a special case, as I previously covered. They specifically designed that mode around this change rather than just making it match all the other disruptions, so no matter what that basically has to stay the way it is with instantaneous identification, for the reasons you mention.