Zariman Extraction

[-Alphaa-]

So ever since the Zariman tileset released I've been thoroughly enjoying it. I've always taken my time with the missions, just enjoying the atmosphere, searching for voidplumes etc. When I first found out about the console in the back of the elevator, letting you extract solo, not having to wait for everyone to gather up (or just letting the timer run out) I was insanely happy. Finally I could play with randoms once again and scour the map afterwards in peace. To this day still quite a few players don't know about this feature and just wait at extraction. Pretty much every single mission I inform my squad that they don't have to wait and can leave whenever they want, most people thank me and leave. But as always there are some special cases. And those are quite infuriating. Just now (hence the topic, I've never been to the forums before) I informed my squad again, got acknowledged and then pulled out of the mission, prompting me to report said players for griefing (I know nothing will come of this obviously). So my question: why is the forced extraction even a thing? It only creates problems. People get pulled out, people don't know they can solo extract, just make it so you solo extract immediately. Why make it a choice? Only leaves room for trolling and ignorance. Everyone knows that communities are never perfect and people simply don't care about others, just part of our human nature.

[Binket_]

20 minutes ago, -Alphaa- said:

why is the forced extraction even a thing? It only creates problems.

You know why /unstuck exists?
Yeah, sometimes that just doesn't work.
Other times you get players who are banking on you leaving and try to maximize their remaining time in the mission.
Some even one step further and incorporate it into efficiency bits.

For the purpose of Zariman?
I'm going to have to break it to you:
A large majority of the Warframe Community is pretty damn stupid.

You could be crystal clear with your logic, but because it could have a MOTE of aggression?
Clearly they must stand their ground with a solid "Don't tell me what to do", regardless if it just hurts everyone.
This is assuming they READ chat, which.... yeah, good luck with that.
^{You have to treat players in this game like they're actual cavemen from what I've been seeing lately... because they ACT and TALK like it.}

 

I've noticed it a lot more since Crossplay's introduction, but some players REFUSE to look at chat in any capacity.
This makes communication a nightmare. Especially in cases like yours, where all you ask if for simple things that benefit all.
Unfortunately, there's only so much DE can do when a player refuses on all accounts to cooperate.

There have been a lot more posts talking about these kinds of people.
Even how some of them call any sort of "can you/can you not?" question a "extremely toxic" trait.
Shutting down any method of communication under a thin veil of "holier than thou" because god forbid contesting opinions exist in THEIR domain.
However, I've noticed these posts get nuked a lot sooooo... probably tells you DE's stance on that. _{^{(Pretend it doesn't exist, make casual-piggy money. Profit above all else, y'know?)}}

So yeah, unfortunately? That's just how the game is now. Much to the dismay of people who want better...

[MaxTunnerX]

There are countless threads on this topic. Nobody knows why the hell zariman works the way it does. It makes no sense. Everything else you dont like is just you playing public squads. Can you imagine going into public transport and telling people where they should get off? Its the same thing. You should only go public when youre too weak to do the mission otherwise (so any squad will help you) or when youre OK with random progression. If you go to public squads expecting progression tailored to you personally, or treat it as the normal way to play this game, then you will get burned and disappointed. There is no normal way to play this game. Some things are best solo, some are best invited only, and some are best public.

Edited April 1 by MaxTunnerX

[LascarCapable]

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

I've noticed it a lot more since Crossplay's introduction, but some players REFUSE to look at chat in any capacity.
This makes communication a nightmare. Especially in cases like yours, where all you ask if for simple things that benefit all.
Unfortunately, there's only so much DE can do when a player refuses on all accounts to cooperate.

That's simply because using chat with consoles is very tedious. As for not paying attention to chat, most of the time it's because the players you're trying to talk to are probably in flow state, too busy slaying stuff to pay attention to the chat. I'm guilty of this myself and I play on PC : everytime I play public I tend to not notice the chat because I'm too focused on what I'm doing, and I only realize that a discussion has been going on or a question has been asked by the end of the mission. Answering to someone through text mid-mission in harder kind of content can also lift your eyes off from important stuff (like ability timers or that one unit that will burst you down and put your ass on the floor), which is especially risky when the content you're doing does not allow revives.

It's not a "caveman" problem. It's not a toxicity problem. It's not a console gamer problem. It's a tool problem. In game chat is not adapted for proper player communication in Warframe, especially in harder content where action can get very frantic.

The current solution to this is always the same : do premades, use vocal or Discord.

Edited April 1 by LascarCapable

[-Alphaa-]

Okay so I figured it'd pretty obvious that most of human kind simply ain't the brightest. That ain't news. The "I didn't see chat" issue doesn't apply either imo, who enjoys standing in that elevator for a whole minute when they are in "flow" state, any player would wanna get out asap. I do understand that all of these may apply, but I'm specifically asking why the forced extraction is a thing in that tileset when it's more disruptive than helpful lmao. Especially when apparently there have been many threads like mine before.

Edited April 1 by -Alphaa-

[LascarCapable]

4 hours ago, -Alphaa- said:

Okay so I figured it'd pretty obvious that most of human kind simply ain't the brightest. That ain't news. The "I didn't see chat" issue doesn't apply either imo, who enjoys standing in that elevator for a whole minute when they are in "flow" state, any player would wanna get out asap. I do understand that all of these may apply, but I'm specifically asking why the forced extraction is a thing in that tileset when it's more disruptive than helpful lmao. Especially when apparently there have been many threads like mine before.

I'm afraid it's like MaxTunner said : no one knows. Maybe there's a very logical reason we couldn't think about, maybe the "full extract" option is here to act as a failsafe for some fringe case scenarios, or maybe it's just something outdated that should be replaced but hasn't been entirely replaced yet for some specific reasons... I can only make assumptions.

Honestly I'd just run these solo so I can explore freely without being forced out by someone who wants to rush.

Edited April 1 by LascarCapable

[Binket_]

14 hours ago, MaxTunnerX said:

Can you imagine going into public transport and telling people where they should get off?

"Hey, dude. Uhhh... you've been asleep for a bit, the big stops are coming up-- so you good or...?"

As someone who's taken some transport in larger countries? Sometimes taking a bus from one part of the map to another can take several days.
It's highly likely that some people can oversleep, get confused or simply forget entirely that their stop was hours ago.
Especially if they're not a frequent traveler.
This can even happen in smaller places, as life sweeps you off your feet and fatigue kicks in before you know it.

If someone shows concern that you may or may not have missed your stop, it's not out of malice or having some agenda.
They're showing concern for their fellow kin. They've been in that situation themselves and want to assist where they can.

That is to say in metaphor?
Some players know that they're in the mission too long. These giving the A-OK for others to ditch 'em, because that's the plan.
Some players think the player taking too long is just lost, but without checking chat? They're never know that they're aware anyway.
Some players generally can guess what others are doing, especially if they've played the game long enough.

Communication is a wonderful thing. Especially when people use it.

12 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

That's simply because using chat with consoles is very tedious.

This I'm aware of. I usually bring it up, but I sometimes get met with trivial things like "Oh, look at this PC elitist here."
As if to entirely miss the point, be it intentionally or otherwise

Glad you brought it up though, since it had to be said.

12 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

As for not paying attention to chat, most of the time it's because the players you're trying to talk to are probably in flow state, too busy slaying stuff to pay attention to the chat. I'm guilty of this myself and I play on PC : everytime I play public I tend to not notice the chat because I'm too focused on what I'm doing, and I only realize that a discussion has been going on or a question has been asked by the end of the mission.

There are some things to chat that I find extremely annoying.

• Chat timestamps. Why isn't this a default? Genuinely, who is hurt by this?
  • Being able to tell when a question was asking 10 minutes ago rather than 2 helps context by leagues!
• A little sound cue that played when your squad was using chat.
  • WHY WAS THIS REMOVED?! Most players- as you said- are either too fixated to see chat visibly or just don't look at it in any capacity.
  • It drives me nuts. I'm telling a player "Hey, turn off Gloom" in a Defense mission and they'll be too busy looking in a mirror to be of any help.
  • If they removed it because it was annoying, maybe they should also remove every mission but Capture. Clearly it's too distracting to have too many gamemodes.
    • If that sounds stupid, it is. That's the point. Both situations are extremely stupid and the former is built on short-sighted logic that helps nobody.
• Disabling Chat in general. Why can people do this in a multiplayer game?
  • I know DE is kinda "arbitrary" with their punishment system at best. "Tyrannical" at worst.
  • ... but if I can be told by everyone to "play solo" if I wanna commune with other players, they can just tuck the chat window in some corner they don't use.
  • All it does is make any form of teamwork a pointless act. Kinda begs the question of "why do we even have Multiplayer at all" in that case?
• The Ignore Function only affects chat. If I find a player practically hunting me down? There's nothing one can do to prevent it.
  • They can still send the player gifts to harass an individual. (Usually cheap stuff to bypass the chat).
  • They can still join their missions and obstruct others. (I've had this happen where Conclave players hunted me down for disliking the mode.)
    • This is easily done with the /join command too. One of which used to be a lot more robust, now it's restricted to friends unless you're in a mission.
    • Please don't "nerf" that again by the way. The issue lies in the ignore system, not the command. That's the point here.
  • Pretty much EVERYTHING but chat is free game for them. They can still be reported, sure-- but that system is shoddy at best.
    ^{(See also: DE isn't exactly great with their punishment system. As seen above.)}

You're right, chat is often very easy to miss. It is ABSOLUTELY a Tool Problem.
Which infuriates me that DE hasn't incorporated better and even more so that players play it off strictly to DE.
Just because DE should doesn't mean it's entirely their fault. A good portion? Yes, but some does fall back to the player.

If you're playing Multiplayer, you should be doing your part. _{Period. Otherwise, "going solo" is better suited to those who detest being in social situations.}
Nobody bats an eye if you cheat in a singleplayer game because 99% of the time, it doesn't hurt anyone.
Just like singleplayer, you can play at your own pace. You don't need to worry about anyone else.
Both fall apart when you're with others, but that's something most can't bother to acknowledge.
^{I may be a rude and extremely frustrated person at times... but I hate to be selfish more.}

 

Still, as it stands now? Best you got for chat is...

• Waypoints which are vague and only relay somewhere or something of importance. Often without context.
• The Railjack Commands. Though they're limited and it doesn't tell you who sent them.
• Emotes which... realistically, you're better off using chat for that.

Many games- even ones older than Warframe- can incorporate some quick Chat menu.
Team Fortress 2 even does this with 3 menus of varying lines to say.
That game came out in 2007 and is STILL being played to this day.

I'm certain DE can very easily implement some lines to use.
They don't even need to be voiced, just a "hey, heads up here" kinda waypoint if all else.

14 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

The current solution to this is always the same : do premades, use vocal or Discord.

This situation is really more of a byproduct of someone taking up what DE refused to do.
See also: Warframe Market, Warframe Wiki, Semlar's Riven Pricing Bot, etc, etc.

Yes, all of these listed above are very useful. But they're also things that should already be in the game.

It's especially apparent prior to Crossplay.
Console players had a harder time accessing these things because they have to physically grab an external device to do such with.
It felt more annoying than just... press Alt+Tab to swap windows on a PC.

This is no different for chat itself. While we do have ingame VC, it's terrible performance and poor settings makes it less effective.
Plus, we all know the tropes of Call of Duty and ye olde Xbox VC. It's not exactly a great thing.

Yes, players CAN just make premades, Discord, etc. (and to an extent? Fair enough)
... but it's important that it's DE's decision to not implement these, thus the consequences do fall on them quite a bit.
It doesn't make the player exempt from fault, but it does mean that DE needs to do a better job of handling it.

12 hours ago, -Alphaa- said:

I do understand that all of these may apply, but I'm specifically asking why the forced extraction is a thing in that tileset when it's more disruptive than helpful lmao. Especially when apparently there have been many threads like mine before.

In that sense? I'll repeat a very applicable to DE that gets more relevant as they keep doing things:

DE is as consistent as they are inconsistent.

• "Exalted Weapons and Channeled Abilities passively drain energy, so you can't things like Trinity's Energy Vampire to top yourself off.
  • ... but Dante's Noctua and Ember's Immolation don't because... lmao, I guess."
• "Ferrox shoots a visible laser with an AoE on the end. Surely it must be a projectile, like the Kuva Chakkhurr, right?
  • ... is what someone would say if this wasn't DE. Nah, it's hitscan."
• "DE doesn't like Warframes that trivialize the game by being invincible, so we made Limbo very restricted so players won't get too powerful!
  • ... anyway, here's Revenant who becomes invincible for well over 2 minutes with a single 50 Energy Cast."
• "We don't have the dev power to put a passive on every Prime weapon.
  • ... unrelated, here's some Incarnon weapons that have powers so cracked that you basically HAVE to use them."
• "We're not gonna make anything that will be permanently gone from the game like Excal Prime ever again.
  • .... soooooo, who wants to buy this limited-edition "Update Supporter Pack" that has a bunch of exclusive goodies! 
  • Also the Heirloom Pack! Better buy it now before it's gone forever! Don't have the money? Sucks to be poor I guess, lmao.
  • Oh, why we releasing these "limited-edition" goodies again for plat later? No reason, it's a surprise tool for later.
  • But we toooootally aren't doing that for the Heirloom Pack, what do we look? Liars? Naaaaah...

That is to say in a very roundabout way? Don't expect anything to be simple in Warframe... or nice for that matter.
We've been trying for the past 10 years.

If you want a "why"? DE doesn't have a "why", they just don't care to.
If you want it "different"? Posts like these help. Do that more.

7 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

act as a failsafe for some fringe case scenarios

/unstuck exists, but a far more prevalent bug that causes the user to moonwalk if an animation breaks doesn't cause for a /animreset command or something to that effect.

See to the above reply. It's very likely that it's just DE being DE, powered by the principles of Quantum Superposition.
^{(The second you look away, it starts doing something. Usually something bad, like the Weeping Angels from Doctor Who! ... which are based on Quantum Superposition.)}

7 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

Honestly I'd just run these solo so I can explore freely without being forced out by someone who wants to rush.

(TLDR for this section is at the bottom. Though it will lack context, but y'know...)

Frankly, I keep seeing that's everyone solution to any problem to this game.
"Just screw off from everyone else. Can't have trust issues if there's nobody around to trust."
^{(Not only the typical barbarism, but also very cynical and cold-hearted...)}

Which I ask again in that case-- WHY IS THIS A MULTIPLAYER GAME?! If playing with others is bad, why even have the option?
I'll tell ya why, it used to be one. It still technically is, but because nobody wants to play it like one? It's not one anymore.
Everyone got sick of the game not fixing the problems that lets bad-actors abuse it, because "muh power fantasy" according to DE.
^{Like no Timmy, that's not "Power Fantasy"-- that's "Power Creep", because you took the fantasy out of it years ago when we decided it'd be a great to Julius Cesar the game's balance.}

I find it really started to die off when we got Shield Gating, but that was genuinely decent mechanic.
... the caveat is only that it made Supports useless. When everyone is so self-sustaining that dedicated supports are no longer needed?
You lose a lot of the game. Why bother relying on others when you can just become invincible and caveman it?

The "Holy Trinity of Multiplayers Role" exists for a reason.
^{("DPS > Support, Support > Tank, Tank > DPS"... It's a simple concept that differs it's result by execution of mechanics.)}
If you remove "Support" entirely, you either get Tanks that become combined with Supports... or DPS roles that overshadow all.
With the former? It often becomes pointless, annoying and generally very isolated. (Let's put a pin in that, I'll get to that later!)
With the latter? It often becomes extremely chaotic and clunky. Sometimes it works in the game's favor, but often doesn't. Very rarely is that actually done well.

 

Warframe isn't "dead", not by a long shot _{(11 years and going, probably won't die JUST yet)}... but it does feel "empty" a lot of the time when you're playing Solo.
It often feels like the only other "players" to exist are the guides on your screen. Often written with an equally devoid tone.

When you play with others however, it feels like it's often "you vs. the world" because everyone wants "big numbers" and/or """big efficiency""".
You end up feeling like their afterthought or you can replaced with an NPC for equal effect.
Most players only go multiplayer in Relic Missions because that's the only way to get multiple Relics going at once.
Take that out and I assure you AT LEAST 80% of traffic in Relics Missions will be outright GONE.

Alone, you make it like a ghost town.
Together, you make it like a wasteland.
Damned if you do, damned it you don't.
Chat being broken is but a mere mote of the issues this game has. Going solo is not the solution.

If people want a better game, they have to start working as a team. Supports have to do something.
I don't just mean Health or whatever-- they have to be RELEVANT and actively sought out.
They can't just nuke rooms either and give them a single "support ability". Dante is not a support. he's just busted.
Otherwise, you get people making posts like this because players can't be bothered to even give others the courtesy of conversation.
If Supports aren't an option? Content needs more teamwork than just "Friendship Doors" which pose to be more a mild annoyance than actual teamwork.

If you can't punish players because they can't die (Revenant, Wukong, Dante, Styanax, etc, etc.), you can't punish players by not doing enough (Roar, Eclipse, Incarnon Weapons, pretty much every damage buff there is, etc, etc.) and you can't punish players by not participating actively? (Khora, Vauban, Octavia, etc, etc.)
... what are supposed to do? Genuinely, how do you incorporate all three of those and make a game that multiple people can enjoy at once?

The answer is you can't. That's why everyone runs solo.
It's not because everyone is a jerk or because they're dumb-- people are dumb IRL too, yet I can't just exile them for looking at me funny.
It's because the game is fundamentally unbalanced and refuses to correct players who are doing things poorly.

 

TLDR:
"Play Solo" is a stupid response when the game itself is the problem.
At that point, saying "just uninstall bro and go smother your face in grass" is equally as helpful.
There is an obvious issue, dismissing that issue for "positive vibes" or "that's just how it is bro" solves nothing.
It just makes the problem bigger and bigger until you can't ignore it.

... and for someone like me? When you can't solve the issue because somebody else won't let you?
Drives you mad. Toxic if you will, even if you don't intend it.

[Famecans]

Zariman extraction is a roulette of bugs so I like it when the host forces the extraction or waits for team. When I'm the host I force everyone to extract with me because I've already received several social toxicities when my migration fails, so I just wait for someone from the team to join me to force the extraction of all players, I only use the extract button if host is not me.

The extraction of all the tilesets is very strange, while it is beautiful it is also ugly thematically. Basically, the doors with the warframe slot are visibly exposed during extraction, giving the feeling of tenno technology and intelligent practicality, but it is ugly for the game universe as no enemy is seeing the invasive tenno technology awaiting warframes inside the ship.

I think that all extraction tilesets should be automatic where the player waits for the timer to run out to solo extract but this needs some adjustments. there should be 2 indestructible tenno artillery, maybe two exodampers to defend the extraction of any enemy level hordes, it is ugly to wait in the zariman's elevator or enter the cetus gate and realize that there is nothing defending the extraction point. I know that flying balloons is Cetus technology against invaders but the gate seems so unprotected, the enemies that approach it run away in fear, it's strange, something should defend the gates and any enemy should approach it to fight. On Zariman we have enemies aiming on elevator door without reacting to gunfire, its strange.

DE could improve this puting thematic exodampers in any extraction, this helps beginning players to extract, this polishe thematic on this tilesets with tecnology tenno, all enemies on extraction tileset are atracted to hit exodampers and exodumpers kill them quickly.

👍

[-Alphaa-]

On 2024-04-01 at 8:28 PM, LascarCapable said:

Honestly I'd just run these solo so I can explore freely without being forced out by someone who wants to rush.

I have indeed reverted back to that option and I'm playing significantly less Zariman once again.