Eclipse Helminth

[Xaikii]

Yes this topic has been chewed everywhere, I just want to provide my 2 cents including a solution.

Let's first start where the problem is.
The Devs decided to reduce the effectiveness of Eclipse as a Helminth to a sad 30% "in line with Roar" in the same patch they "nerfed" Nourish(that was not a nerf Pablo) to "flatten out the Helminth Usage and Variety".
Quite wild to then kill a Helminth Option in the same Patch.

And that's EXACTLY where the problem is, it's nowhere near as good as Roar, not even close.

Admittedly yes, Eclipse has the advantage of DR... but you don't get both at once, but only 1.
Arguing that' its advantage for actually KILLING the offensive Aspect is just unjust.
And just for a matter of fact, I'd argue the majority of players that need some kind of survivability in their build would still use Shooting Gallery or Pillage over Eclipse

These are the calculations for DoT, in this case Slash:
a being Eclipse
b being Roar
x₁ being the AbilityStrength (1 = 100%)

(The formula you can see in the solution screenshot)

What can we see here?
A full Slash proc with Roar deals with any Strength Values, just more damage than Eclipse would.
That being said, yes Roar becomes very good with DoTs, so how does it look like with normal hits that do not contain/proc DoTs?
Easy... they're the same.

But it sadly doesn't stop there... Roar applies to ANY damage that's sourced back to the Entity, the Entity being the Warframe, Companion, Weapon, Specter, whatever has the buff(just like Nourish btw).
Eclipse however... is only applied on your weapons, and a select number of Abilities that synergize with weapons.

 

Why do we have to argue about it's potential, when it's being outclassed by even Nourish on the damage department... yes even after nerf.

I have a very simple and "Math-driven" solution for it, to increase the Value to anything in-between 50% and 75%, personally I suggest 65% or even 75% to have a nice value consistency with the Damage Reduction :).
Eclipse doesn't need to be THE ULTIMATE DPS HELMINTH, that is not what everyone is asking for, it's the viability we want back.

50% would already allow Eclipse to perform better under normal circumstances excluding DoTs for your Weapons.
65% would then also allow Eclipse to overpower Roar at DoTs at 100% Strength, but lose afterwards, in fact a normal Intensify an Augur Secrets would make Roar better again than Eclipse with DoTs.
75% would finally allow to be an independently viable Damage Boost for Weapons being on-par with Roar on DoTs up until 250% Ability Strength
I would suggest 60% as a new base.

 

I hope everything is clear of what and why and maybe we can communicate to get the offensive part of Eclipse back to a stage where we don't feel bad using it instead of another.

 

Zitat

Admittedly yes, Eclipse has the advantage of DR... but you don't get both at once, but only 1.

Also just throwing this random idea this way.

How about an Augment converting Eclipse into a Channeled Ability which can not be reactivated to disable, but instead changes the form between Light and Dark.
But also grants both Buffs but at a diminished rate.
e.g. during Light it grants 75% Damage and 25% DR, during Dark it grants 75% DR and 25% Damage.

Increases the Ability Cost by 100%, to 50 and has a passive Drain of 6.66 Energy per second.
When the Ability gets disabled by anything, be it Nullifier or no Energy left it is being put on 30 second cooldown.

Edited April 3 by Xaikii
Adding my suggested value

[roboliutas]

Neat.

[Faulcun]

i wish they would have just fixed it to work as intended. Spent the last 10 years paying attention to tilesets and what effects occur at different locations only now to have the ability gutted on any frame its swapped to. Im not mad..... im just disappointed.

[Xaikii]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Faulcun:

i wish they would have just fixed it to work as intended. Spent the last 10 years paying attention to tilesets and what effects occur at different locations only now to have the ability gutted on any frame its swapped to. Im not mad..... im just disappointed.

I feel that, but this might be for the better, ease of use and consistency is a plus on my book, just the values aren't...

[-ShadowRadiance-]

On 2024-04-01 at 8:44 PM, Xaikii said:

Admittedly yes, Eclipse has the advantage of DR... but you don't get both at once, but only 1.
Arguing that' its advantage for actually KILLING the offensive Aspect is just unjust.
And just for a matter of fact, I'd argue the majority of players that need some kind of survivability in their build would still use Shooting Gallery or Pillage over Eclipse

Regardless of the math. Ppl are ignoring how the skill works.

Roar has ONE. Effect. Dps boost. (Yes, several in one, but thats irrelevant. It only does one thing. It enhance your dmg)

Eclipse has two. Dps boost AND DR. (Again, correct, you CAN only have one active at a time. BUT you can choose. At a third of the energy cost at a buttonpress. With roar you are locked in for a dmg boost. There is no 'tap for dps! hold for mysterious effect #2' inside roar.) I know im speaking to a brick wall, but il do it anyhow.

You can change between these two at will. Altough im 99.99% sure the ability to switch, and having the tools at your disposal is irrelevant. You only care about the dps increase. Like everyone else whining in various threads that their speedkill record they wanna break cant be done anymore.

 

It makes PERFECT sense a SPECILIZED (And since alot on this forums dont seem to understand what i mean by that, il make it abundantly clear, Roar, has no tap or hold for effect #1, and effect #2. Eclipse. Does.) helminth that only does -one thing- is better then one with multiple effects where you can choose at will. Or you against all F odds, you actually need DR for a split F second. 

You have more tools at youe disposal. Recastable, for less energy cost.

The math is irrelevant. 

 

Roar has the benefit of being a specilized ability thats only function, is to make you do more UMPH. 

Eclipse is designed to also let you do UMPH, but at the same time, it has a built in 'OH SHI' button. And even if that emergency button isnt being utilized, its still sucking up the juicy by being ready to be activated at a moments notice, you havent severed the connection to it. So naturally, Eclipse has less UMPH. 

Here, math is irrelevant. 

 

[GrumpyPants]

You have completely neglected faction mods, which roar stacks additively with while eclipse stacks multiplicatively. Making eclipse perform on par with roar without faction mods means that on almost any build eclipse is either on par or better, exactly what roar is to eclipse now. Roar is good at multiplying DOT damage, that is it's specialty, eclipse needs to be buffed to the points where it has its own specialty but not so much that it takes over what roar is meant to be good at. Please see my post for an alternative view, with math, where I look at why I believe 45% is all eclipse should be buffed to.

Edited April 2 by GrumpyPants

[Xaikii]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb -ShadowRadiance-:

Regardless of the math. Ppl are ignoring how the skill works.

Roar has ONE. Effect. Dps boost. (Yes, several in one, but thats irrelevant. It only does one thing. It enhance your dmg)

Eclipse has two. Dps boost AND DR. (Again, correct, you CAN only have one active at a time. BUT you can choose. At a third of the energy cost at a buttonpress. With roar you are locked in for a dmg boost. There is no 'tap for dps! hold for mysterious effect #2' inside roar.) I know im speaking to a brick wall, but il do it anyhow.

You can change between these two at will. Altough im 99.99% sure the ability to switch, and having the tools at your disposal is irrelevant. You only care about the dps increase. Like everyone else whining in various threads that their speedkill record they wanna break cant be done anymore.

 

It makes PERFECT sense a SPECILIZED (And since alot on this forums dont seem to understand what i mean by that, il make it abundantly clear, Roar, has no tap or hold for effect #1, and effect #2. Eclipse. Does.) helminth that only does -one thing- is better then one with multiple effects where you can choose at will. Or you against all F odds, you actually need DR for a split F second. 

You have more tools at youe disposal. Recastable, for less energy cost.

I(/we) don't ignore how it works, neither is it about big boi dps increase.
It's about it being actually viable, I don't want it back to it's extremes, I just want for it to have a reason to be used.

Yes it is 2 in 1, but that doesn't matter when both options are sub-par.
Yes DR is useful and nice, but why bother when as I mentioned Shooting Gallery and Pillage do the Protection just better.
Likewise does Roar, Xata's Whisper and Nourish all the Damage aspect better than Eclipse.

Being ABLE to do both is not a reason to gutter one side, as that is what has happened with Damage Eclipse.

vor 14 Stunden schrieb GrumpyPants:

You have completely neglected faction mods, which roar stacks additively with while eclipse stacks multiplicatively. Making eclipse perform on par with roar without faction mods means that on almost any build eclipse is either on par or better, exactly what roar is to eclipse now.

but not so much that it takes over what roar is meant to be good at. Please see my post for an alternative view, with math, where I look at why I believe 45% is all eclipse should be buffed to.

Taking this into the answer as well, tell me, how many Warframe-based Faction Damage Sources do we have?
Yeah, 1... Roar.
It does stack additively with Faction Mods yes, but only a small margin of Players even adjust their builds on Weapons for Factions, generalizing it to a "it's possible" is not what all of this is about. 

vor 14 Stunden schrieb GrumpyPants:

Roar is good at multiplying DOT damage, that is it's specialty, eclipse needs to be buffed to the points where it has its own specialty

That is what I am talking about, we don't need "extreme" values, but rather a state where it actually feels good and makes sense to use.
I read your post, and we're both going at a similar direction.
While you suggest 45% I suggested 50-75%, admittedly 75% is a "bit" much, I personally was more at 65% in mind.

Where I do disagree however is the impression that everyone has those Primed Factions, let alone actually uses them.
It is frankly a bother to change it over and over unless you're going for a long run.

Meanwhile is Roar a simple and fast addition to a build to grant big bonuses, but for Eclipse you would need to properly build for it to make it as good.
Before now anyone argues again "Roar is specialized for DoTs"... most of our DPS nowadays is DoT, Hunter Munition, Heat (Inherit), Toxin.
The other thing you also don't show is that Eclipse does start to fall off again just 10 Strength later at 310% (Eclipse 50% bonus), as you already go as far as including Primed Factions Mods you also need to include the actual extremes of 324%+ Ability Strength builds.

An advantage Eclipse DOES have over Roar is the stronger boost of the initial hit, which I would suggest also including in the DoT Overall Damage, as we are looking at Weapon-sourced Damage which need to proc the Slash with an actual Hit.

 

However with your research also being done, I would lower my first suggestion form 65% to 55-60% as from what I see that is the perfect value for it.

[Gaxxian]

Remember that you need to multiply your Roar results for each squad member... and also applies to abilities. So, Eclipse needs to be even bigger than 50-75% at base, imho.

[Xaikii]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Gaxxian:

Remember that you need to multiply your Roar results for each squad member... and also applies to abilities. So, Eclipse needs to be even bigger than 50-75% at base, imho.

That Roar is applicable on your Squad is an extra we have to keep in mind as a side mention.
The self use is the more important aspect, as technically you can share Eclipse as well, even if not as well.