I'm LR2 and I can't even play the game mode as intended. What is the point?

[devoltar]

I have thousands of hours in this game and almost everything unlocked. I can't even try Archimedea for anything beyond the base rewards, which I could get faster just by playing Netracells (which I can easily solo with several different loadouts). Every single weapon option I've been provided by the slot machine is MR fodder that isn't even viable in Steel Path - none of it could kill a single 300+ disruption enemy even without all the modifiers, and no way I'm wasting materials on these guns for one mission. The Warframe options I've been provided are all frames that I hate and that don't have strong enough abilities to make up for the lack of viable weapons.

I could just load up with all this garbage and hope to find a team that can carry me while I hide in the corner to unlock Elite, but I'm not that kind of a player, and I despise people who are. The fact that this design encourages that kind of play where people just join and leave over and over until they find someone who can carry them is just the icing on the "I don't want to play this" cake. 

The core idea of this mode is great, but the RNG thing needs to go in the trash can, or Elite needs to be unlockable with one frame and weapon that are chosen by the player (or even just one weapon, something that can at least be viable to kill things at this level so you aren't a complete detriment to your team.). This is an insult to the investment that end game players have put into this game. 

Edited April 5 by devoltar

[Zennophati]

Agree to all.

[Refreshee]

19 minutes ago, devoltar said:

The core idea of this mode is great, but the RNG thing needs to go in the trash can, or Elite needs to be unlockable with one frame and weapon that are chosen by the player. This is an insult to the investment that end game players have put into this game. 

I agree partially with this.  I play Genshin Impact.  When Genshin Impact still ran genuinely difficult events, the maximum rewards were achievable always without having to toggle everything on, but it also offered much more options.  I also play OSRS.  The new raid, Tombs of Amascut, allows you to achieve the highest tier of difficulty without toggling everything on, too.  While increasing and putting more toggles on does allow for a better chance at rewards, the highest tier is achieved well before that, and a lot of the time when groups are run for ToA they simply go up to around ~350 points, which is a fairly reasonably difficulty, but far from the worst it can be.  That seems to be an established method for this type of gameplay, and it is lacking here.  One issue in Deep Archi is plainly that we do not have enough options to toggle, and there is no wiggle room for taking one penalty over another.  That's not fun.  As it is, Deep Archi feels incredibly shallow from a design perspective.  Even ARAM on League of Legends allows you to reroll up to two times.

So ultimately there are lots of ways the mode can be made deeper and more interesting.  I would strongly recommend DE take a look at how other games address these types of issues.

Edited April 5 by Refreshee

[devoltar]

4 minutes ago, Refreshee said:

I agree partially with this.  I play Genshin Impact.  When Genshin Impact still ran genuinely difficult events, the maximum rewards were achievable always without having to toggle everything on, but it also offered much more options.  I also play OSRS.  The new raid, Tombs of Amascut, allows you to achieve the highest tier of difficulty without toggling everything on, too.  While increasing and putting more toggles on does allow for a better chance at rewards, the highest tier is achieved well before that, and a lot of the time when groups are run for ToA they simply go up to around ~350 points.  That seems to be an established method for this type of gameplay, and it is lacking here.  One issue in Deep Archi is plainly that we do not have enough options to toggle, and there is no wiggle room for taking one penalty over another.  That's not fun.  As it is, Deep Archi feels incredibly shallow from a design perspective.  Even ARAM on League of Legends allows you to reroll up to two times.

So ultimately there are lots of ways the mode can be made deeper and more interesting.  I would strongly recommend DE take a look at how other games address these types of issues.

I'd be fine with that, for me at least even a couple rerolls would likely give me something I could use. Right now I'm just annoyed because I've been waiting to try this with my one friend that still plays Warframe for weeks, and I can't even be bothered, cause I'd just be a boat anchor if we actually played to win. And it's for an incredibly stupid reason based in bad game design that clearly wasn't properly play tested. 

I was looking forward to a challenge, but not a "HAHAHAHA, nope not for your this week."

Edited April 5 by devoltar

[Schwitzer]

53 minutes ago, Refreshee said:

When Genshin Impact still ran genuinely difficult events, the maximum rewards were achievable always without having to toggle everything on, but it also offered much more options.

I like that idea, being able to freely choose maybe one specific slot and still qualify for Elite. That way you can at least find a way to work around appalling RNG luck. 

 

1 hour ago, devoltar said:

I could just load up with all this garbage and hope to find a team that can carry me while I hide in the corner to unlock Elite, but I'm not that kind of a player, and I despise people who are.

I had a player who we completely carried in our Elite run, but I don't begrudge them for it at all. Perhaps their RNG was just nasty? This week I was relatively fortunate, but perhaps next week I'll be left with nothing but MR trash?

[devoltar]

30 minutes ago, Schwitzer said:

II had a player who we completely carried in our Elite run, but I don't begrudge them for it at all. Perhaps their RNG was just nasty? This week I was relatively fortunate, but perhaps next week I'll be left with nothing but MR trash?

I do genuinely appreciate that attitude in this particular instance. But that doesn't really change the fact that it shouldn't be necessary and is counter to the whole "this is the hardest content, gear up and bring a team!" concept. 

And I certainly don't want to feel forced to be "that guy" ;)

[Redrigoth]

6 hours ago, devoltar said:

I have thousands of hours in this game and almost everything unlocked. I can't even try Archimedea for anything beyond the base rewards, which I could get faster just by playing Netracells (which I can easily solo with several different loadouts). Every single weapon option I've been provided by the slot machine is MR fodder that isn't even viable in Steel Path - none of it could kill a single 300+ disruption enemy even without all the modifiers, and no way I'm wasting materials on these guns for one mission. The Warframe options I've been provided are all frames that I hate and that don't have strong enough abilities to make up for the lack of viable weapons.

I could just load up with all this garbage and hope to find a team that can carry me while I hide in the corner to unlock Elite, but I'm not that kind of a player, and I despise people who are. The fact that this design encourages that kind of play where people just join and leave over and over until they find someone who can carry them is just the icing on the "I don't want to play this" cake. 

The core idea of this mode is great, but the RNG thing needs to go in the trash can, or Elite needs to be unlockable with one frame and weapon that are chosen by the player (or even just one weapon, something that can at least be viable to kill things at this level so you aren't a complete detriment to your team.). This is an insult to the investment that end game players have put into this game. 

would you like this system better? If yes, like and comment so DE knows

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1392106-suggestion-on-how-to-fix-deep-a-design-by-keeping-the-intention-and-removing-the-rng-de-come-read-this-and-implement-soon/

Edited April 5 by Redrigoth

[Snowbluff]

6 hours ago, Refreshee said:

As it is, Deep Archi feels incredibly shallow from a design perspective.  Even ARAM on League of Legends allows you to reroll up to two times.

Also in other games like LoL, options on characters and weapons are meant to be ostensibly balanced against eachother. A lot of the weapons in this game is meant to be disposable trash with no value past being XP for your account.

[devoltar]

So turns out, I did not check my loadout options after yesterday's daily reset (cause I didn't know that was bugged)... well, I'm glad I found out, cause my new loadout options included... Glaive (?!), and Sobek, which I have a very good riven for. So in the end I was able to unlock Elite without being a boat anchor (after three tries with pub groups), but it was really only because that bug gave me a lucky break. And on Elite I get pick one frame or weapon since I don't care about the Vosfor. With just that one degree of freedom, the mode feels notably less punishing due to the RNG, and weirdly makes Elite the easier mode (finished my Elite run first try and with only three people).

So now, after completing that, I feel like first and foremost that the Elite unlock needs to be changed. Either it needs to only require 20 research, because frankly Elite isn't *that* much harder than normal to justify the lockout, or it should be unlocked for everyone automatically above a certain MR. (or both). In the meantime I think I might just help carry people through unlocking. 

Edited April 6 by devoltar