PC PC Dante Unbound: Hotfix 35.5.6

[tartcactus]

Apologists are going to apologize. They ate never going to outright acknowledge that Tragedy is still crippled.They might accidentally admit that by trying to take a swipe at those who point this out but they will deny this if they are called out on it. Wonder how many of the apologist crowd never stopped complaining about Yareli's wake board until DE made it optional with her augment? I mean, they should just learn to use her full kit, right? Just like Dante, oh wait, we can't do that with Don't-Aye because his 3 is now crippled. Apologists, don't bother. I am just as committed and as entitled to my point of view as you are to yours. If the re-bound frame works fine for you, by all means, use him. Mine now decorates the Helminths alcove in my orbiter. Also, I thank DE for the extra money I would ordinarily have spent on Tennocon tickets x3, Tennocon merch packs x3 and prime access packs plus prime accessory packs x3 x4 prime access events per year going forward. Also, their refusal to hear or even acknowledge the sector of the community that is still unhappy with how this entire debacle was handled has given me a reason to play a competitors game. I check in to get the daily freebies, but that is it. There is now no reason to believe that DE will not eventually suck all the fun out of every warframe. So, they knee perked to how popular the re-bound one was upon release and they made him not fun. Anyone remember how they crushed Ember because she was too popular? The community stopped playing her. It took Pablo doing a full rework on her kit to get the community to take a second look at her. Don't use this "here, we gave you back a little of what we took away" shell of a frame. They will either put him back into a fun state or they will doom him to the room of relics such as Banshee, etc. Boggles the mind that they do not want a newly released frame to be popular.

Again, naysayers can save the wear and tear on their thumbs. I will not be swayed from my viewpoint. The only thing I will agree with is that we disagree.

[Karyst]

46 minutes ago, tartcactus said:

Apologists are going to apologize. They ate never going to outright acknowledge that Tragedy is still crippled.They might accidentally admit that by trying to take a swipe at those who point this out but they will deny this if they are called out on it. Wonder how many of the apologist crowd never stopped complaining about Yareli's wake board until DE made it optional with her augment? I mean, they should just learn to use her full kit, right? Just like Dante, oh wait, we can't do that with Don't-Aye because his 3 is now crippled. Apologists, don't bother. I am just as committed and as entitled to my point of view as you are to yours. If the re-bound frame works fine for you, by all means, use him. Mine now decorates the Helminths alcove in my orbiter. Also, I thank DE for the extra money I would ordinarily have spent on Tennocon tickets x3, Tennocon merch packs x3 and prime access packs plus prime accessory packs x3 x4 prime access events per year going forward. Also, their refusal to hear or even acknowledge the sector of the community that is still unhappy with how this entire debacle was handled has given me a reason to play a competitors game. I check in to get the daily freebies, but that is it. There is now no reason to believe that DE will not eventually suck all the fun out of every warframe. So, they knee perked to how popular the re-bound one was upon release and they made him not fun. Anyone remember how they crushed Ember because she was too popular? The community stopped playing her. It took Pablo doing a full rework on her kit to get the community to take a second look at her. Don't use this "here, we gave you back a little of what we took away" shell of a frame. They will either put him back into a fun state or they will doom him to the room of relics such as Banshee, etc. Boggles the mind that they do not want a newly released frame to be popular.

Again, naysayers can save the wear and tear on their thumbs. I will not be swayed from my viewpoint. The only thing I will agree with is that we disagree.

And not just that, but now the Los is in place, no reason to run overextended so Dante deals even more damage and nobody in the squad can delete whatever enemy is in the room with us quicker than him. Some people mentioned that they encountered certain Dante players that were constantly out of energy and died repeatedly, that's simply someone without nourish and zenurik, so even if I let you slide the Los schism that's been going on, the disruptive gameplay is still going to be happening, you just don't get to experience it unless you run into stacked Dante that is out there to delete whatever red triangle is present on the map . Did you really think that simple Los solves disruptive gameplay? As long as one can fix shortcomings of a Warframe with archon shards, they will always be disruptive according to what you consider disruptive, even tho complaining that my teammate is killing everything before I can in a PVE game where we aren't against one another is often labeled as a skill issue. 

[Nero.DMC]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It did have the old LoS check system. A new system didnt get implemented until this patch for DV, at which point it got the improvements of current Tragedy. So if you were fine with that, you should be fine with what we have now across the board since both skills implement a system that is more reliant than any we've had before overall. So it is odd people didnt notice it on DV but all of a sudden did on Tragedy. The most odd part is people noted it on the improved Tragedy but never picked it up on DV for 2 whole weeks, even though improved Tragedy from the friday patch had practically no issues.

No really it isnt random. All missions can be controlled. Non endless missions that move from DZ to EZ will have spawns infront of you as you move on, endless missions allow for full control, either by relying on spawn logic from survival (disruption for instance) or a mix between it and defense (excav, interception).

But it didnt, since it was the skill that even got blocked by Dante himself. This could be tested by using another primer in the sim, prime things up with it, use tragedy with blocked view due to Dante and still see the blocked primed targets die on detonation. Going back to priming with DV with the same enemies blocked by Dante would result in them not getting "detonated" and only take the base damage of the skill, while still having no slash on them after detonation. Meaning DV never landed but Tragedy did. Since if DV had landed they'd still have slash on them since Tragedy would have never landed if it was blocked by Dante, they'd also have large chunks of their life removed from the dot itself, but only had minimal health removed due to the base damage of Tragedy landing.

That no one complained about DV is my whole point, since it means people complain about things before testing, as I described here, with simple tests done that showed which skill was actually the bottleneck, even in a fully open setting. People attributed a bug to a skill that did not have that bug after the friday fix.

Tragedy itself was never blocked by Dante etc. outside of the first day it had LoS. DV was blocked since day 1.

But it does rival weapons. I can maintain an easy 2.0+ kps with Rhino using Dark Verse spam. That is without burst damage available through Tragedy, since well... Rhino doesnt have that skill. And it is easier with Dante since he has access to Roar if you want to do the same as Rhino, but with the benefit of also having massive detonation burst to instantly wipe out large groups of enemies in 3 quick button taps. Saryn doesnt "DETONATE", she pops her spores and makes them spread, the enemy you spread them from dies to the weapon at that point, not the spores themselves and you need to attack the next enemy to speed up the killing and spread further beyond that, or wait for the spores to kill with their limited non-stackable-on-demand damage and spread them with miasma.

When Dante detonates he detonates, which means the mobs die there and then on demand. And this is while we conveniently forget his massive defense along with insane single target potential with weapons aswell. Because apparently Tragedy is the only thing Dante has in his whole kit.

https://youtu.be/DnoFAbAbH7A?si=I4ssrLtaD0tpKOBs&t=804

Clearly you dont know what Saryn can do.

Dante has never even been close to what Saryn can do, and detonating Saryn spores is much much faster than DV DV Tragedy.

for the 99999999999999999999999999999999999999th time NOBODY SAYS DANTE IS WEAK HE IS ANNOYING TO PLAY WITH LOS ON TRAGEDY FOR NO REASON AT ALL.

The reason nobody complains about DV is we understand why DV needs LoS its a marking ability, a damage dealing ability that does not depend on anything else to be used.

Tragedy is fundamentally diferent, tragedy requires: 2 dark verse casts, enemies that currently have statuses (to deal any meaningful damage) -> its a detonator, detonators should not have LoS, RN you need LoS in 2 different points in time to kill any enemy with DV DV -> Tragedy wich is dumb af given how a LOT of weapons can outdps Dante and other frames can outdps Dante prenerf, so we got the annoying part with the excuse of balance when he was never that strong to begin with and LoS does not really balance him at all, he is still almost as strong as prenerf, he is JUST ANNOYING

[tartcactus]

LoS on an AOE ability is a poorly thought out choice, even if LoS is well implemented in a game. It is a terrible choice when LoS is as dysfunctional as it is in WF.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

On 2024-04-21 at 3:50 AM, Nero.DMC said:

No i did not, you are speaking about minute 7, i watched it live and i watched it AGAIN now, this still does not adress ANY of the feedback, She said: the aoe is too big BUT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TELLING THEM THAT THEY WOULD RATHER HAVE A SMALLER AREA OR NO BASE DAMAGE IN THE ABILITY RATHER THAN LoS, PEOPLE HAD ALSO BEEN CONSTANTLY REPEATING THAT LoS ON THAT ABILITY FELT AWFUL.  none of those things were adressed, what steve reads literally had nothing to do with this.

So no this is not answering to feedback, a lot of feedback has come AFTER this particular video (10 days ago) they tell us right there that they will be hearing more feedback, 0 responces, dante's Tragedy still feels awful, i hardly ever see Dante anymore, wich is insane... (maybe i just was unlucky tho, my experience might not correlate with the overall playtime of dante, BUT i saw him on every lobby pretty much and now i hardly ever see him, this is a pretty bad indication for a new frame)

They clearly addressed feedback and have addressed more since. There's probably going to be even more discussion on Friday's devstream, but none of it counts because they didn't address it following the specific form and manner that you demand. As ever, "DE isn't listening because they're not doing what I want!" holds true.

There's been plenty of other people who are happy with Dante as he is now, myself being one of them. But because I don't agree with you, clearly I'm a troll and I don't count as a player. This sort of thing is probably why DE doesn't listen to your demands feedback.

On 2024-04-21 at 3:50 AM, Nero.DMC said:

no i did not, i watched it live and now i watched it again, the problem is what you consider a response to feedback is not at all, if you answer unrelated stuff or simply ignore the points that people made you are not responding to feedback you are just presenting whatever you want to present.

No, the problem is that their response to feedback isn't satisfactory to you. You'll only count it as a response to feedback if they do a full rollback and reversion to non-LOS AOE broken OP Dante. Because "DE isn't listening!"

On 2024-04-21 at 3:50 AM, Nero.DMC said:

Its not that relevant, hitting unprimed stuff was worthless, as i said before, stuff i already put dark verse on will die anyway BUT stuff that has not dark verse on wont die from just tragedy (at least not on SP), the only difference is i will be there or far away, if my detonator does not work on the enemy i just marked but is now out of my LoS because i moved or he moved or whatever is just an annoyance, i already had LoS to him, i already marked him, the difference in tragedy vs just dark verse is Tragedy is much faster and missing loot based on a Detonator ability not detonating stuff is just removal of QoL.

His damage and KPM is variable, depends on your settings, tiles and luck, it used to be more reliable but now it wont since they slapped that awful mechanic into a detonator that never needed it.

It's obviously relevant, because that's precisely what DE targeted in nerfing him the way that they did. Your "QOL" is understood by everyone else, including DE, to be "performance." Dante was able to outperform Saryns and Octavias, handily, and do so all the way up to levelcap. His ability damage has superior scaling given that weapon damage from our arsenal is a component to its damage formula, including that of your teammates.

His damage and KPM are at a much more acceptable state now than at launch. He can still perform very well, he just requires rubbing two braincells together long enough to make a fire.

On 2024-04-21 at 3:50 AM, Nero.DMC said:

adding LoS was the thing most people asked them not to do, we all knew LoS was going to be awful, you can check old forum post discussing it, most of us would have rather taken the chance with range, having inconsitent range is awful.

Its funny tho, you dont trust them to change the status but you trust them with a much more radical measure that is slapping LoS to it, range change is a measurable change, LoS is not measurable at all, how much it impacts the frame is variable... this should already tell you that is NOT a great way to balance something.

Tragedy damage is not good, you are just detonating enemies, the base damage from tragedy might as well be 0, i would not care at all.

Good thing game development isn't a democracy, otherwise we'd still be trapped in the Spin-2-Win or Monkey Man AOE metas that everyone despised for so long. In any case, the LOS changes post fixes are fine, there's still some issues but it's clear they're working on them. LOS is obviously measurable, and a range nerf would have entailed much harsher range reductions since the issue was him hitting enemies through walls. If the problem is the wallhacks, and their solution was LOS, just how much do you think they'd gut his range in order to prevent the wallhacks from remaining a significant issue?

Dante's damage is INSANE. They had to implement a 1 billion damage CAP, for crying out loud. How is that "not good"? Do you understand how his damage is calculated? Why it's understood that he has/had one of the strongest nukes in the game? I mean, the answer there is obviously no, but surely the fact that the cap is so high should tell you something about it? Right? Right?

On 2024-04-21 at 3:50 AM, Nero.DMC said:

you missed a few options:

4- they balance the range just right  and everyone is happy

5.- they leave it as it was, since the frame was never op to begin with

6.- they initially over or under shoot wathever they wanted to leave stuff  at and fix them step by step

4 is wildly optimistic. It's more likely they'd fall into the pitfalls I mentioned, or he ended up with a trashed range like Nezha's augment but without any hope of being buffed because DE understands just how brokenly OP his nuke can be, even if you don't.

5 is laughable. DE clearly wasn't willing to leave his nuke in the brokenly OP state that it was, and that's what precipitated this entire ensuing mess. He was OP, he is OP, and that you don't seem to recognize that is a skill issue.

6 is just a restatement of prior points and doesn't resolve the fact that the community hates nothing more than repeated nerfs.

On 2024-04-21 at 3:50 AM, Nero.DMC said:

It depends, if it has a valid reason yes, BUT at any point where they say "balance" in that reason i inmidiatly would think they are full of BS, because LoS is not useful to balance at all... i have said this before and i dont know if you eventually got why LoS will never be a balance tool, it should just be a mechanical reason or a design reason, using LoS to balance means they did not balance at all because balance is all about standarizing and measuring, since LoS impact is random there is no way to measure its impact in anything... you dont add a dice to balance something...

What would you say is a valid reason? Because that sounds like a whole list of reasons that strike me as fine, but which you immediately dismiss as BS or unacceptable.

"DE isn't listening!" means "DE isn't doing what I want!"

[tartcactus]

Still have the attention hungry he who must not be named, I see. LoS does not belong on an AOE ability. Particularly when said mechanic is as buggy as it is in WF. Good developers take a buggy mechanic offline until it is fixed. WF has had this same buggy implementation of LoS in place for well over 3 years. They took a new swipe at it because "Oh, man! People are really angry! Quick, Devs, make like we are trying to fix this!" It, of course, did not work and they have now retreated behind the impenatrable Fortress of "We will fix it in a future Cert Build,"  I would not recommend holding your breath for that. One could possibly turn blue and pass out. Remember, Tenno, don't feed the trolls. They never get enough attention.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-04-21 at 6:48 PM, Nero.DMC said:

https://youtu.be/DnoFAbAbH7A?si=I4ssrLtaD0tpKOBs&t=804

Clearly you dont know what Saryn can do.

Dante has never even been close to what Saryn can do, and detonating Saryn spores is much much faster than DV DV Tragedy.

for the 99999999999999999999999999999999999999th time NOBODY SAYS DANTE IS WEAK HE IS ANNOYING TO PLAY WITH LOS ON TRAGEDY FOR NO REASON AT ALL.

The reason nobody complains about DV is we understand why DV needs LoS its a marking ability, a damage dealing ability that does not depend on anything else to be used.

Tragedy is fundamentally diferent, tragedy requires: 2 dark verse casts, enemies that currently have statuses (to deal any meaningful damage) -> its a detonator, detonators should not have LoS, RN you need LoS in 2 different points in time to kill any enemy with DV DV -> Tragedy wich is dumb af given how a LOT of weapons can outdps Dante and other frames can outdps Dante prenerf, so we got the annoying part with the excuse of balance when he was never that strong to begin with and LoS does not really balance him at all, he is still almost as strong as prenerf, he is JUST ANNOYING

That is a very terrible video to use if you want to make a case for Saryn. It also shows you keep up little with what changes go into the game overall, and that you dont actually watch or understand what you watch in something like the video you provide. 

It is for instance not "what Saryn can do" in that video. It shows the broken state of Dual Ichor at the time of that video, which was fixed around 2 months ago or 2 months after that video went live. In addition to that Saryn adds practically nothing to the performance of Dual Ichor in that video, you can see that by the KPS produced in those 10 minutes. It adds up to 2.5 KPS per second, which with an avarage Dual Ichor at the time was pretty normal stats no matter the frame, you just had to know how influence worked. I consistently reached the 2.5 KPS with Revenant for crying out loud, and when I used Kullervo it would push to 2.8 aswell as 3.0 at times.

And saying Dante hasnt been close is hilariously wrong, since a full caster playstyle can maintain 2.2 KPS unless the map is horribly set up with bad flow, the same KPS goes for Dagath with a full caster playstyle. And I have no clue why you keep saying "detonating spores". All that does is spread them, you still need to wait for the ticks to kill (which is also limited to 3 instances per target unless you specifically spam 1 on an enemy), so no lol, it isnt faster than 334 on Dante which effectively kills in those few seconds of casting the rotation on a room of enemies. Even if you add more DV to mark more of a room before detonating you kill faster than spores ever will.

And you say it isnt about him being weak or dealing low damage then all of a sudden you weave in how other frames and weapons deal better damage? Like uhm make up your mind?

[Nero.DMC]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is a very terrible video to use if you want to make a case for Saryn. It also shows you keep up little with what changes go into the game overall, and that you dont actually watch or understand what you watch in something like the video you provide. 

It is for instance not "what Saryn can do" in that video. It shows the broken state of Dual Ichor at the time of that video, which was fixed around 2 months ago or 2 months after that video went live. In addition to that Saryn adds practically nothing to the performance of Dual Ichor in that video, you can see that by the KPS produced in those 10 minutes. It adds up to 2.5 KPS per second, which with an avarage Dual Ichor at the time was pretty normal stats no matter the frame, you just had to know how influence worked. I consistently reached the 2.5 KPS with Revenant for crying out loud, and when I used Kullervo it would push to 2.8 aswell as 3.0 at times.

And saying Dante hasnt been close is hilariously wrong, since a full caster playstyle can maintain 2.2 KPS unless the map is horribly set up with bad flow, the same KPS goes for Dagath with a full caster playstyle. And I have no clue why you keep saying "detonating spores". All that does is spread them, you still need to wait for the ticks to kill (which is also limited to 3 instances per target unless you specifically spam 1 on an enemy), so no lol, it isnt faster than 334 on Dante which effectively kills in those few seconds of casting the rotation on a room of enemies. Even if you add more DV to mark more of a room before detonating you kill faster than spores ever will.

And you say it isnt about him being weak or dealing low damage then all of a sudden you weave in how other frames and weapons deal better damage? Like uhm make up your mind?

Dante cannot kill out of LoS (with or without Tragedy LoS), Saryn still can and she has been able to do it for really long. That interaction was enabled by Saryn being able to hit stuff several rooms away, wich is what i wanted you to notice, the damage itself was inflated thanks to melee influence and ichor incarnon, but saryn can still kill several rooms away.

You speak a lot of KPS, while not giving much information about it, KPS can be heavily influenced by a bunch of things (how much time you are in a mision, what kind of mision, how many people are with you in the mision, are they supporting you, are you supporting them,etc) and those KPS's are easy to reach with many WF's and Weapons, furthermore they hardly tell the whole picture as in performance, killing trash enemies fast means very little outside a few game modes.

You can get fairly high KPS's with Inaros with the right setup, but its meaningless as to what the WF does.

All this is not that relevant tbh, Dante KPS has not changed much or changed a lot depending where exactly you are playing, because LoS sucks for balancing its extremely unreliable, if you are in an open space you are exactly as strong as before, if you are in a bad tileset you are much weaker, its a really dumb way of trying to balance the ability IF this was done to reduce Dante effecteviness it was a really bad measure, reducing his effective range would have been much better and a measurable reduction in power.

this half measure that made him annoying to play is awful.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Nero.DMC said:

Dante cannot kill out of LoS (with or without Tragedy LoS), Saryn still can and she has been able to do it for really long. That interaction was enabled by Saryn being able to hit stuff several rooms away, wich is what i wanted you to notice, the damage itself was inflated thanks to melee influence and ichor incarnon, but saryn can still kill several rooms away.

 You are aware why she is hitting stuff several rooms away in that video right? Broken Dual Ichor spreading itself with Toxic Lash active popping the spores to travel with the broken Dual Ichor clouds. This wont happen at a rate close to that for her without that specific broken interaction, since if she just lets the spores do the work, they will fall off, since only the innitial target spreads spores on spore-kill death. She needs either LoS to spread with weapons through Toxin Lash, accurate hit on spore, or killing the enemy, or she can spread it with miasma allowing the DoTs to kill and still spread.

7 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

You speak a lot of KPS, while not giving much information about it, KPS can be heavily influenced by a bunch of things (how much time you are in a mision, what kind of mision, how many people are with you in the mision, are they supporting you, are you supporting them,etc) and those KPS's are easy to reach with many WF's and Weapons, furthermore they hardly tell the whole picture as in performance, killing trash enemies fast means very little outside a few game modes.

KPS is only ever worth mentioning in a solo setting. And as I said, consistently reach, meaning throughout missions no matter the length. For me that would be up to 2 hours in SP, since at that point I often find myself in need to take a break and do something else. And it is/was the same versus any faction. And KPS does tell a picture of performance, since if they can maintain high KPS the damage is produced fast and high enough to kill quickly when needed.

16 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

You can get fairly high KPS's with Inaros with the right setup, but its meaningless as to what the WF does.

Yes like with every frame that relies on weapons. I'm simply pointing out that Dante (and Dagath) are strong enough to do it with just their abilities. They can kill as effectively with their skills as an "ability-less" frame does with weapons. Inaros has sick potential as a weapon frame, melee most notably, with how his kit works.

21 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

All this is not that relevant tbh, Dante KPS has not changed much or changed a lot depending where exactly you are playing, because LoS sucks for balancing its extremely unreliable, if you are in an open space you are exactly as strong as before, if you are in a bad tileset you are much weaker, its a really dumb way of trying to balance the ability IF this was done to reduce Dante effecteviness it was a really bad measure, reducing his effective range would have been much better and a measurable reduction in power.

And his KPS and damage was never a problem as they straight up said in the devshort. They clearly wanted to get rid of low level disruptive gameplay and certain higher level combinations when in a group. LoS impacts him the least overall since he is already restricted to cone bases priming at shorter range. Reducing his range would do nothing, since it isnt that he reached the range he did by massive range investments. Even reducing it to 25m or 20m would still leave the disruptive low level gameplay, since you'd still be able to reach massive range with him. Because his kit is simply just that forgiving in stats. And anything lower than that would make the kit clunky, since you'd end up priming at far greater ranges than you can detonate.

[tartcactus]

DE needs to LoSe Line of Sight and take it off AOE abilities. And, in the spirit of truth in advertising, shouldn't the name of the current Cert build be changed to Dante Re-Bound?

Edited April 25 by tartcactus

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

Dante in his current incarnation is an incredibly strong Warframe, and absolutely one of if not the strongest support in the game.

Another user suggested that removing his ability to detonate the procs of other players would likely resolve the issues DE had with his kit, and I agree. If he's only limited to procs he applies with his kit, that certainly solves any major Wallhacks issue, and if the low level nuking is a concern they can reduce/remove the slash damage component on his 4.

I'm happy with the LOS restrictions that he has now, but that alternative would have been an acceptable change as well, since it returns the "QOL" while excluding the insane performance.

Unfortunately, that would have required more intensive tweaks than DE was probably looking for.

Edited April 25 by Armadillidium_vulgare

[tartcactus]

The most egregious bug affecting Dante and any other unfortunate warframe that suffers from it is LoS. Getting bug reports about Tragedy dropping FPS rates, DE? Welcome to the impact of your decision to saddle an AOE ability with LoS checks. Congratulations. There is a very simple solution. Turn the LoS checks off on Tragedy. Simply set the value of the boolean variable from 1 to 0. Bang! No more slowdowns from casting Tragedy. If you want to adjust AOE, come up with an AOE based solution. The current approach is causing more problems than it is fixing.

[Nero.DMC]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

KPS is only ever worth mentioning in a solo setting. And as I said, consistently reach, meaning throughout missions no matter the length. For me that would be up to 2 hours in SP, since at that point I often find myself in need to take a break and do something else. And it is/was the same versus any faction. And KPS does tell a picture of performance, since if they can maintain high KPS the damage is produced fast and high enough to kill quickly when needed.

Yes like with every frame that relies on weapons. I'm simply pointing out that Dante (and Dagath) are strong enough to do it with just their abilities. They can kill as effectively with their skills as an "ability-less" frame does with weapons. Inaros has sick potential as a weapon frame, melee most notably, with how his kit works.

I think we struck on the reason of our disagrements here, i think a frame using his abilities is a completely valid playstyle and should be able to reach similar levels of powers than a warframe as a weapon platform, most WF's have more of a supporting kind abilities relegating damage to weapons, i think the playstyle of caster is a completely valid one and should reach similar levels with similar investment. I still think that LoS makes no sense because it really sucks for nerfing Dante by a quantifiable amount, its just super random and annoying but i think DE needs to decide if they just want all frames as weapon platforms or not, and i think the worst desition would be making most frames as weapons platforms (this is the case curently tbh, having frames that can perform at similar levels than weapons with a caster aproach is a good thing, making them more annoying to play is a bad thing.

PD: i know my melee inaros is a beast, his kit while being defensive gives you a lot and thanks to hellminth you can get a damaging buff into Inaros, but i feel this is not a good thing, most frames benefit a lot from hellminthing a damage buff.

Quote

And his KPS and damage was never a problem as they straight up said in the devshort. They clearly wanted to get rid of low level disruptive gameplay and certain higher level combinations when in a group. LoS impacts him the least overall since he is already restricted to cone bases priming at shorter range. Reducing his range would do nothing, since it isnt that he reached the range he did by massive range investments. Even reducing it to 25m or 20m would still leave the disruptive low level gameplay, since you'd still be able to reach massive range with him. Because his kit is simply just that forgiving in stats. And anything lower than that would make the kit clunky, since you'd end up priming at far greater ranges than you can detonate.

Agreed, it was never a problem and its still not a problem, the thing is some ppl have said he was nerfed based on being too powerful and that is simply not true, he is fine, he is not op not even before the nerf, i also think that the synergy with teammates could be a bit too much, but as a lot of ppl have sugested they could just let us detonate enemies marked by dante himself.

Here we yet again agree, his marking capabilities are good but not that amazing to warrant a LoS check for the detonator, they could just let dante only detonate stuff he marked and not the rest.

about low lvl gameplay they should simply remove the base damage (or reduce it by a lot) i think those 2 changes would be much much better than LoS, LoS have the problem of making Dante spammy and spamming is no fun imo. 

In short everything would be solved by making Tragedy only hit marked enemies from dark verse and not enemies other allies are priming for you, this literally solve every problem and it leaves the ability functioning exactly as it was before, fun and not spammy.

 

[Nero.DMC]

2 hours ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Dante in his current incarnation is an incredibly strong Warframe, and absolutely one of if not the strongest support in the game.

Another user suggested that removing his ability to detonate the procs of other players would likely resolve the issues DE had with his kit, and I agree. If he's only limited to procs he applies with his kit, that certainly solves any major Wallhacks issue, and if the low level nuking is a concern they can reduce/remove the slash damage component on his 4.

I'm happy with the LOS restrictions that he has now, but that alternative would have been an acceptable change as well, since it returns the "QOL" while excluding the insane performance.

we have suggested this multiple times, letting him only detonate stuff he marked would be great as long as they get rid of LoS.

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Unfortunately, that would have required more intensive tweaks than DE was probably looking for.

I agree with what you said here BUT that is like the worst justification for not doing stuff right (from them) "hey this solution would have been great but it was too much work" -> its not a good justification.

Good to see you do listen to some ppl (clearly not me, and i had to triple check it was you in the other post) but this was one of the suggested fixes the community put foward when they slapped LoS to Tragedy (along many other posible solutions)

[DanteTheHawk]

Most people assumed that they wluld nerf the range to 20m like xaku's 4 and not nerf the ability to play the frame. Like instead of nerfing dante they should have buffed Quorvex or oberon or caliban or loki or any of the army of abandoned frames. 

[Quintinw]

16 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

we have suggested this multiple times, letting him only detonate stuff he marked would be great as long as they get rid of LoS.

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I don't like this. It would remove synergy with Wordwarden on allies providing status effects for his own 4.

 

9 hours ago, DanteTheHawk said:

Most people assumed that they wluld nerf the range to 20m like xaku's 4 and not nerf the ability to play the frame.

I don't like this either because there's no reason to take away range on the detonator that NEEDS the range when moving from place to place.

[tartcactus]

The most egregious bug affecting Dante and any other unfortunate warframe that suffers from it is LoS. Getting bug reports about Tragedy dropping FPS rates, DE? Welcome to the impact of your decision to saddle an AOE ability with LoS checks. Congratulations. There is a very simple solution. Turn the LoS checks off on Tragedy. Simply set the value of the boolean variable from 1 to 0. Bang! No more slowdowns from casting Tragedy. If you want to adjust AOE, come up with an AOE based solution. The current approach is causing more problems than it is fixing.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

I think we struck on the reason of our disagrements here, i think a frame using his abilities is a completely valid playstyle and should be able to reach similar levels of powers than a warframe as a weapon platform, most WF's have more of a supporting kind abilities relegating damage to weapons, i think the playstyle of caster is a completely valid one and should reach similar levels with similar investment. I still think that LoS makes no sense because it really sucks for nerfing Dante by a quantifiable amount, its just super random and annoying but i think DE needs to decide if they just want all frames as weapon platforms or not, and i think the worst desition would be making most frames as weapons platforms (this is the case curently tbh, having frames that can perform at similar levels than weapons with a caster aproach is a good thing, making them more annoying to play is a bad thing.

PD: i know my melee inaros is a beast, his kit while being defensive gives you a lot and thanks to hellminth you can get a damaging buff into Inaros, but i feel this is not a good thing, most frames benefit a lot from hellminthing a damage buff.

Agreed, it was never a problem and its still not a problem, the thing is some ppl have said he was nerfed based on being too powerful and that is simply not true, he is fine, he is not op not even before the nerf, i also think that the synergy with teammates could be a bit too much, but as a lot of ppl have sugested they could just let us detonate enemies marked by dante himself.

Here we yet again agree, his marking capabilities are good but not that amazing to warrant a LoS check for the detonator, they could just let dante only detonate stuff he marked and not the rest.

about low lvl gameplay they should simply remove the base damage (or reduce it by a lot) i think those 2 changes would be much much better than LoS, LoS have the problem of making Dante spammy and spamming is no fun imo. 

In short everything would be solved by making Tragedy only hit marked enemies from dark verse and not enemies other allies are priming for you, this literally solve every problem and it leaves the ability functioning exactly as it was before, fun and not spammy.

 

I agree with what you say here. For me the restistance towards removing LoS now is simply because it is a now thing and would need other things changed instead. So it would be new work needed in order to remove something they have already worked on to fix something. If they had done something else for starters I wouldnt have minded Tragedy not having LoS requirements, since instead they would have fixed the problem they saw in another way.

Preferably if I had done the initial changes I would have simply moved the base damage of the skill and baked it into the detonation as the same flat damage value it is now. There, boom, skill just as strong as it was and without any nuke potential on unmarked targets. I would have then also potentially removed any group interaction with detonation aswell, so Dante would need to be the primer in order to detonate anything.

I would however not go back now and change things, since it isnt like Dante isnt working, he works pretty damn well overall. If there isnt time to give frames attention that actually need it I really cant see a justification to go back to Dante again when all it would do it open up a bit more playstyles. I mean, there isnt really a thing Dante cannot do really well aside from improving the durability of a defense target in a proper way. He has crazy dps in his skills, absurdly good OG (the best in the game without a contest), increadible debuffs and buffs. His potential as a weapon platform is great considering how wordwarden works. It improves his single target damage, and if combined with influence and most notably dual ichor it will also spread extra statuses across the targets hit by either influence or the cloud, since those count as Dante's attack rate.

Right now I play him as a caster+melee hybrid, since it gives me the most use out of his whole kit. When I come across a large group I tend to nuke them, if I move on between smaller groups I tend to spam some DV on approach and cut them up with my melee supported by wordwarden. And at the rate he shreds heavy units either with weapons or skills is insane. Right now he rivals my Kullervo with melee, even though my Dante's is 6 crit tiers behind and a couple of multipliers lower on crit damage.

[SneakyErvin]

22 minutes ago, tartcactus said:

The most egregious bug affecting Dante and any other unfortunate warframe that suffers from it is LoS. Getting bug reports about Tragedy dropping FPS rates, DE? Welcome to the impact of your decision to saddle an AOE ability with LoS checks. Congratulations. There is a very simple solution. Turn the LoS checks off on Tragedy. Simply set the value of the boolean variable from 1 to 0. Bang! No more slowdowns from casting Tragedy. If you want to adjust AOE, come up with an AOE based solution. The current approach is causing more problems than it is fixing.

Spamming this doesnt make it true. They've already pinpointed what caused that bug (which was his Tragedy runes staying after cast, eventually filling more and more of the map and tanking fps) and fixed it in the recent patch.

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• Fixed Dante's Tragedy VFX affecting performance when repeatedly cast. 

So for someone complaining and spamming as much as you do, maybe stay ontop of the things you complain about?

 

[tartcactus]

Was not trying to spam, on my side, it did not show it had posted. Got a death in the family to deal with guys. Enjoy the continual argument about Dante

[Nero.DMC]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I agree with what you say here. For me the restistance towards removing LoS now is simply because it is a now thing and would need other things changed instead. So it would be new work needed in order to remove something they have already worked on to fix something. If they had done something else for starters I wouldnt have minded Tragedy not having LoS requirements, since instead they would have fixed the problem they saw in another way.

Preferably if I had done the initial changes I would have simply moved the base damage of the skill and baked it into the detonation as the same flat damage value it is now. There, boom, skill just as strong as it was and without any nuke potential on unmarked targets. I would have then also potentially removed any group interaction with detonation aswell, so Dante would need to be the primer in order to detonate anything.

I would however not go back now and change things, since it isnt like Dante isnt working, he works pretty damn well overall. If there isnt time to give frames attention that actually need it I really cant see a justification to go back to Dante again when all it would do it open up a bit more playstyles. I mean, there isnt really a thing Dante cannot do really well aside from improving the durability of a defense target in a proper way. He has crazy dps in his skills, absurdly good OG (the best in the game without a contest), increadible debuffs and buffs. His potential as a weapon platform is great considering how wordwarden works. It improves his single target damage, and if combined with influence and most notably dual ichor it will also spread extra statuses across the targets hit by either influence or the cloud, since those count as Dante's attack rate.

Right now I play him as a caster+melee hybrid, since it gives me the most use out of his whole kit. When I come across a large group I tend to nuke them, if I move on between smaller groups I tend to spam some DV on approach and cut them up with my melee supported by wordwarden. And at the rate he shreds heavy units either with weapons or skills is insane. Right now he rivals my Kullervo with melee, even though my Dante's is 6 crit tiers behind and a couple of multipliers lower on crit damage.

Pretty much agree on everything here my main gripe is even tho he works fine he is just spammy AF, and i know they are supposed to be promoting active gameplay but i feel that spamming is not what they should aim for, marking into detonating is much more fun than spamming every second to keep a good kps. 

You can always go hybrid like you pointed out but that is ofc a different way to play him, as a pure caster frame he is just spamming a lot (this can be fun for a moment but it requires nothing from you so it gets boring)

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the durability of a defense target

he can sometimes as long as its not an object, his OG work on rescues/eidolon lures

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If there isnt time to give frames attention that actually need it I really cant see a justification to go back to Dante again when all it would do it open up a bit more playstyles.

i think here is the only disagreement, goodwill is hard earned and easy to loose, a lot of ppl invested money and time into Dante, DE told us they were not going to do something drastic and ppl were asking them to not add LoS to Tragedy even before they told us, they did it in a rushed manner wich added insult to injury, a untested rushed update that should have never happened, people is pasionate about the game and DE just really screwed up royally i think its well worth a few docen hours of dev time to regain goodwill and show us that their philosofy is not just "all frames are weapon platforms or spammy ability casters" I dont think DE is taking this aproach sadly, they have barely acknoledge there is still a lot of discontent about their desitions. 

[Johnprofit]

5 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

Pretty much agree on everything here my main gripe is even tho he works fine he is just spammy AF, and i know they are supposed to be promoting active gameplay but i feel that spamming is not what they should aim for, marking into detonating is much more fun than spamming every second to keep a good kps. 

You can always go hybrid like you pointed out but that is ofc a different way to play him, as a pure caster frame he is just spamming a lot (this can be fun for a moment but it requires nothing from you so it gets boring)

he can sometimes as long as its not an object, his OG work on rescues/eidolon lures

i think here is the only disagreement, goodwill is hard earned and easy to loose, a lot of ppl invested money and time into Dante, DE told us they were not going to do something drastic and ppl were asking them to not add LoS to Tragedy even before they told us, they did it in a rushed manner wich added insult to injury, a untested rushed update that should have never happened, people is pasionate about the game and DE just really screwed up royally i think its well worth a few docen hours of dev time to regain goodwill and show us that their philosofy is not just "all frames are weapon platforms or spammy ability casters" I dont think DE is taking this aproach sadly, they have barely acknoledge there is still a lot of discontent about their desitions. 

This. I dont have a lot of time to play now compared to a few years ago and i definitely invested money on Dante. I felt misled when Rebecca said they would "tweak him a bit". I was really waiting for another magician frame (because limbo is getting no love from DE) only for him to become yet another weapon platform.

 

So yes, DE Steve, I am a bit salty. Salty that your team changed Dante after a week but left other frames/abilities that ticked Megan's boxes (of why you nerf certain things) untouched.

[Slayer-.]

22 minutes ago, tartcactus said:

Was not trying to spam, on my side, it did not show it had posted. Got a death in the family to deal with guys. Enjoy the continual argument about Dante

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

Pretty much agree on everything here my main gripe is even tho he works fine he is just spammy AF, and i know they are supposed to be promoting active gameplay but i feel that spamming is not what they should aim for, marking into detonating is much more fun than spamming every second to keep a good kps. 

You can always go hybrid like you pointed out but that is ofc a different way to play him, as a pure caster frame he is just spamming a lot (this can be fun for a moment but it requires nothing from you so it gets boring)

I was just used to it from the start, since I already enjoyed my caster Dagath, which is practically built as a full rotation RPG caster going through 1 to 4 constantly. But yeah I can see how Dante is spammy. Heck, my main gripe with Dante is that they placed his 3 buff icons in the buff bar and not above his tome UI. Resulting in me rebuffing more often than needed, since I follow my Roar duration instead, since it is easy to spot on the skill bar. While tracking the Dante buffs among 2 full lines of buffs all of the same color is nearly impossible.

6 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

he can sometimes as long as its not an object, his OG work on rescues/eidolon lures

Yeah it's mostly on the real defense targets, including the living version where it seems to have its own will regarding how long it wants to last. Buffed one up to max together with the group but the next second I turn over to the defense target the OG is gone.

9 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

i think here is the only disagreement, goodwill is hard earned and easy to loose, a lot of ppl invested money and time into Dante, DE told us they were not going to do something drastic and ppl were asking them to not add LoS to Tragedy even before they told us, they did it in a rushed manner wich added insult to injury, a untested rushed update that should have never happened, people is pasionate about the game and DE just really screwed up royally i think its well worth a few docen hours of dev time to regain goodwill and show us that their philosofy is not just "all frames are weapon platforms or spammy ability casters" I dont think DE is taking this aproach sadly, they have barely acknoledge there is still a lot of discontent about their desitions. 

I think the people should get used to live service games instead. Since this is normal where I come from. I also have a very hard time seeing how this would make him less spammy. You'd remove some tragedy casts, but you'd also just replace them with more DV casts. The people that also wave the money card are sadly just exaggerating. They purchsed the frame without knowing anything regarding how the skills would work, so would have purchased him with or without LoS at release just as happily. And the time invested is practically nothing. My total mastery time on him was about 30 minutes. The forma investment might be harsh for some, but not exactly a big investment in the end.

These are also people that act as if he is unplayable, it isnt a playstyle angle like you have, they are literally calling him weak and unplayable, some going to extents of claiming a drop from S tier to D tier etc. These people should not be listened to, since they only talk random crap and have likely barely touched the frame or taken him to anything but low level S#&$. Most likely will also just want the AoE back to keep destroying low level S#&$. Hence why we see all the "remove LoS but reduce range", cos they dont care about priming at all. And they know that even with a 20m range they can dump strength for range mod and still wipe the star chart with neutral strength and low modding investments.

I completely understand your personal angle, since you enjoyed a specific playstyle. And we all grow attached to things. But the exaggerating drooling masses? I have squat sympathy for them.

23 minutes ago, tartcactus said:

Was not trying to spam, on my side, it did not show it had posted. Got a death in the family to deal with guys. Enjoy the continual argument about Dante

Sorry to hear that. To whomever you lost! 🍺

10 minutes ago, Johnprofit said:

This. I dont have a lot of time to play now compared to a few years ago and i definitely invested money on Dante. I felt misled when Rebecca said they would "tweak him a bit". I was really waiting for another magician frame (because limbo is getting no love from DE) only for him to become yet another weapon platform.

Have you tried him properly after the changes, since he still plays very strong as a caster frame. There is really no problem playing him as full caster, full platform or a hybrid.

[tartcactus]

Many thanks for the condolences, folks. It was my brother in law