PC PC Dante Unbound: Hotfix 35.5.6

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

1 hour ago, LordOfKenpo said:

It should be because what they did could very easily be considered a bait and switch. They sold us a frame that played in a way we enjoyed and then removed that playstyle which made the frame no longer what people had paid for. Also most people who work in gaming or play games can tell you, you should never remove qol. If something has a qol improvement it should not be taken away. Also why shoudn't we ask for what we enjoyed to be returned. At this point I think many people are less upset about the change and more about DE's decision to ignore the issue and hope it goes away. One thing I've learned as a software engineer when dealing with customers, no response is ALWAYS the wrong response. A rushed response is also not good, but its been weeks, they should have said something or responded to our feedback. They've given some basic feedback, but none that actually explained it and they spent way longer congratulating themselves on fixing issues they caused which looks really bad and makes us feel like they really don't care. They could simply have said "We acknowledge the feedback on this, but feel this is how we want the frame to be. We apologize for releasing him in the state he was, we didn't do enough testing. As a repair for this, if you purchased him within the first week for money or platinum, we will allow you to request a refund and if you have sunk forma into him during that week and reach out to support, we will provide a forma pack and potato to replace them" and I think people would be much happier.

Oh yeah, I entirely agree that his state at rollout was a mistake on DE's part. Same issue happened with Styanax, back in 2022 if I recall correctly; they released him in a very strong state and had to nerf him so as to give the game a veneer of challenge again. Heck, even now Styanax is one of the strongest frames in the game. But yeah, they screwed up and had two pretty crappy options: leave him as is, brokenly OP, or nerf him immediately and make some people unhappy but on the balance of being healthier for the game. It happens more often than I'd like, but not often enough for it to be an intentional pattern so much as an occasional screwup on their end.

That said, they've since been working to make things better even under the constraint of that nerf. We're getting LOS checks being fixed across the board, and that's fantastic for a large number of frames that have some clunky older limitations. Dante being nerfed sucked, but it was a necessary balance change. It's like when you go to the doctor to get a flu shot; you might hate needles, but you'll be healthier for having gotten it.

Even still, your conception of his QOL directly translates to increased performance. If it didn't, they wouldn't have made the change. I'm fine with the changes and understand why they did what they did, and I think a revert to his previous state without a severe nerf to his range would be pretty awful for the state of the game. Hell, as he is he's OP. I don't have much opinion on refunds or whatnot; I know when I buy something from a live service game developer and it's very strong at release, odds are nonzero that it'll get a nerf and I'll lose some of the value that I paid for. It's something that's reasonable to complain about, but not reasonable to expect given that it's a live service title and they have the right to do whatever they wish with it.

1 hour ago, WeaverDuck said:

Well, people who dont enjoy Dante as he is now have every right to want those changes reversed to day one. He was advertised and sold as something slightly different AND THEREFORE people may feel like what they bought was taken from them.  Fun was taken for sure.

Please. I am begging you. Read the TOS that you agreed to.

1 hour ago, Nero.DMC said:

Dont waste time on him (armadillium), he is just fishing for attention, i tried reasoning with him but its pointless

You have a very creative and entertaining definition of "reasoning with."

Edited April 16 by Armadillidium_vulgare

[WeaverDuck]

3 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Please. I am begging you. Read the TOS that you agreed to.

I know what I agreed to. Still, a d*ckmove is a d*ckmove. Definitely made me care about the game less and i've been a while and seen a bit. If I were DE i wouldnt count on me spending more money on stuff they will ruin right after.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

1 hour ago, WeaverDuck said:

I know what I agreed to. Still, a d*ckmove is a d*ckmove. Definitely made me care about the game less and i've been a while and seen a bit. If I were DE i wouldnt count on me spending more money on stuff they will ruin right after.

It sucks, yeah, and it was an entirely unforced error on DE's part, but what's better for the game? DE didn't nerf Dante for the fun of it, or out of a desire to bait and switch people. They're clearly not sitting there, twirling their mustaches and laughing maniacally about all the people they got money from like a demented Scrooge McDuck. No. They released him, realized that "Oh crap! He's too strong!" and nerfed accordingly the areas they identified as issues. But let's look at some of the available options, bearing in mind that DE clearly don't want or intend for him to have no LOS restrictions:

1 - DE agree NOT to nerf Dante, leaving him as is and untouched. Clearly not an option since whatever metrics they were using set off red alert alarm bells to the point that they came down on him FAST. But if they decided not to, what are the knock-on effects? Pre-nerf, he had an insane range and could nuke better than Saryn and Octavia, while also making teammates immortal. We already have complaints about frames and weapons that leave nothing for other players to do; wasn't that what the AOE nerfs and changes were meant to address? Why Thermal Sunder as a helminth got nerfed (what little good it did)? Why nuking is obnoxious at low levels? So on?

2 - DE decide to nerf him, but they'll give a grace period. Well, that doesn't really change the state of affairs, now does it? Rather than buying an OP frame, now you're just buying TIME on an OP frame. The argument about buying something just for them to nerf it doesn't change, you merely get a few months or a year to enjoy it (while whatever knock-on effects from him being no-LOS OP wreak havoc) before they nerf it and the uproar starts. Meanwhile, all the people who didn't buy him are running around causing whatever problems DE identified but without the money investment COI.

3 - WE ARE HERE - DE nerfs him immediately. They want to rectify what they see as the problem and continue to adjust based on feedback/issues with the new implementation. There's some immediate uproar, but Dante will be in line with their intent and the direction they want Warframe to go. He's still strong, but he won't be doing any more wallhacks. Heck, they'll even throw us a bone and leave in a bug/unintended feature RE: his birds' status damage. It'll hurt PR, and it sucks for everyone involved, but that's what happens when they mess up a release and put out a frame who's far stronger than they want. 

4 - DE nerf him but offer refunds. Maybe they give out a bunch of forma or something, too. That'd be nice, but that kind of thing tends to make shareholders upset, and it's possible that even if they wanted to Tencent/the accounting department wouldn't allow it. It could well be that this simply isn't an available option for DE at all. DE as a developer is NOT the same as DE as a money-making engine, if that makes sense.

5 - DE cave to the complaints and revert the changes. They do this despite their internal metrics and misgivings, and despite it being contrary to the direction they want the game to go. The community learns that a sufficiently loud outcry and level of toxicity will get their way, and Dante is now the premier nuker/support frame. This might have some pretty severe knock-on effects down the road, but who cares, we got our lazy nuke back! Hooray?

Somewhat related to 1 and 2, but can you imagine how toxic new frame releases would be if they had a policy of "No nerfs until a year has passed, after which point it's free game." I wouldn't buy anything because I'd know for a fact that every OP new release would get hammered into the ground to rectify balancing after a year (Not to mention how awful it'd be to play in that environment). I don't know about you, but I'd also resent the hell out of DE for releasing OP new frames while older favorites rotted in the dirt. Imagine the old Hydroid, but instead of getting reworks and rebalances it's a constant cycle of throwing older OP frames in the trash and trying to sell you on the shiniest new toy, EVERY TIME. I don't want that to happen, so I find it reassuring that they're willing to shoot themselves in the foot for the sake of balance. It sucks that it happened, but the fact that they were willing to do the difficult and painful thing is a good sign and why I trust DE. I don't want to see them go the way of Bungie, or Wargaming, or any of the other live service online titles with toxic business practices.

 

Edited April 16 by Armadillidium_vulgare

[tartcactus]

Stop feeding he who must not be named.

[DarthVZ]

1 час назад, WeaverDuck сказал:

I know what I agreed to. Still, a d*ckmove is a d*ckmove. Definitely made me care about the game less and i've been a while and seen a bit. If I were DE i wouldnt count on me spending more money on stuff they will ruin right after.

I was excited about the game for the first time in years (and haven't spent a dime since Railjack fiasco) and this debacle was some sort of a cold shower. I'm firmly back to my "whatever" mood

[WeaverDuck]

40 minutes ago, tartcactus said:

Stop feeding he who must not be named.

Mea culpa

[Nero.DMC]

1 hour ago, DarthVZ said:

I was excited about the game for the first time in years (and haven't spent a dime since Railjack fiasco) and this debacle was some sort of a cold shower. I'm firmly back to my "whatever" mood

the fact that a lot of people feel this way is so sad, and their "we will read feedback" is such a blatant lie, the route they took is "we will avoid the forums at all cost and ignore everyone"

[Saltyboi777]

Why DE have to be so oblivious about the truth? everything,the uproar,the emergency hotfixes,the damage to your own reputation,potential money going away,all that would have been avoided with just a simple thing: PLAYER-BASED BETA TESTING, it´s THAT simple,and you did that before. with beta testing (public beta testing,not restricted to only friends of DE´s devs or content creators that more often than not complain either that things are too strong and need nerf or things are too useless and need buff,we also need the opinion of cassual or average players,regardless if they spent a dime on the game or not) dante would have been released in a middle ground between his current state and the pre nerf one,while also buffing ruvox and onos (for god´s sake,those things stink,with the current fist melee stances,there´s situations where even incarnon form doesn´t let it reach anything that is 2 milimeters above you,and impact only? you didn´t learn anything with the ekhein? that thing wasn´t even used for mastery fodding,and the onos needs like all fire rate mods to make it deal serious damage to the level of enemies you expect us to use it with (250-400) thanks to that ludicrously slow 4 second charging rate that also consumes like a fifth of your incarnon ammo on top of what the charging uses),and thus,no complain would have been made.

Can I also make you remember about newly released frames in the last years that were borderline pre-rework inaros tier and took various updates to fix? or those that even today are forgotten? caliban,yareli,gauss,grendel,garuda,sevagoth,qorvex,and those are only the ones I remember the most

Or about frames that are left in the dust with no current hope for a true buff/rework? loki,banshee,nyx,nezha,limbo,oberon,and the list goes on.

if buffing old things took you so long,why it took ONLY 5 DAYS to nerf the new toy? why can´t you say the truth? dante was a bait and switch

and before someone complains thinking I don´t have dante,I farmed dante day one ,got all components,immediately craft it,and when it was done,put some formas on it,exilus adapter,and 2 tauforged archon shards for casting speed,you had to spend 450 energy to max out your triumph overguard thanks to needing blind rage for decent max overguard,and of top of that ,casting various dark verse to amass enough slash procs to nuke with tragedy,TRAGEDY PROBLEM WAS RANGE,NOT DAMAGE OR AOE,TRIUMPH PROBLEM WAS FRAMES THAT CAN´T ACCEPT OVERGUARD TO FUNCTION WELL,NOT THE AMOUNT OF PROTECTION YOU GET FROM IT(you people had ever used on a consistent basis a high eHP pool frame (rhino doesn´t count bc he can get infinite protection) like inaros,hyldrin,augmented styanax,or dante itself against endgame enemies like the fragmented one or eximus deep archimedea necramechs? those things can obliterate like 25k overguard in a single blow,while oneshotting even hyldrin´s shields and almost oneshotting inaros)

the thing that we need the most is a public server for beta testing,and getting more staff entirely dedicated to the game´s balance so they can get all necessary buffs (and nerfs for that matter,saryn,mesa,khora,octavia,revenant,wisp reign needs to end)

[Slayer-.]

 

On 2024-04-16 at 4:19 AM, tartcactus said:

Refund request open 10 days with no response.

10 hours ago, tartcactus said:

11 days with no response from the customer service team. One reviewer mentioned average response time from DE has dropped to around 14 days. Hey, don't hurt yourselves, guys!

What I do when the ticket has been open for a while is to reply in the same ticket with some more info, which seems to bump it to be noticed, especially when it's a timed event refund.

[Karyst]

12 hours ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

I'd say that much has been self-evident for a good few pages, now.

Oh wow! He talks about how amazing Dante is, and his many support and offensive capabilities! Why, he even talks about how incredible Dante's nuke is, rather than complaining about how garbage tier Dante has supposedly become after the LOS change. He did focus more on the offensive capabilities than the support aspects, which is a shame, but he at least covered them unlike some people who seem insistent on denying Dante is anything but a nuke. But hey, according to your citation there's more to Dante than just his nuke: Who'da thunk it? Does this mean you're finally going to stop tunnel-visioning on this and let DE be the game devs in the room? Or is someone as reasonable as the Kengineer not enough to convince you?

You... stopped watching after a few minutes, despite suggesting giving him a watch like it was some kind of gotcha, and despite the disclaimer that he was using some older footage from before the most recent patch. Wow. Dante Nuke Enjoyers sure stay winning, am I right?

 

You seem to think that we are here in need of conviction and greatly fail to realize that we played Dante on release, some of us with maxed out builds and comparing that to what it is now is a great disappointment based on the reason regurgitated countless times in this forum alone. And as you were informed multiple times, it is you, without pre nerf experience, who struggle to understand this. Kengineers video I suggested, is to be compared to Dante on release but you are still getting excited that you won the arguement.

Edited April 17 by Karyst

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

I have repeatedly said he is not much weaker, even tho he is a bit weaker, he is not much weaker, he is a whole lot more annoying to play and removed options as to how you can play him. wich is the thing i dont like about the change.

That is just how changes work. They saw a reason to change a certain style potential since they saw something wrong with it. And since his power is intact there is nothing wrong with that if they saw some interaction as unhealthy.

19 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

No its not, having abilitites that mark with LoS is not inconsistency its a design desition, one that makes sence, if your marker and detonator both work without LoS its extremely powerful, that's ehy they added it, no one complained because Dante felt great to play, no one have problems with Dark Tragedy, it has always been about tragedy. The root of his inconsistency is a detonator ability that does not detonate enemies even tho they are previously marked.

No one is saying that having abilities to mark is inconsistency. And the part I bolded shows you dont know where the root of the problem was. Yes people claimed it was Tragedy getting LoS that resulted in inconsistency, but that was also not true as can even be seen in the kengineer video talked about here, and even mentioned by the poster of that comment. That skill has been the bugged part of detonations and everything else since day 1 because it failed to prime since release. So if Tragedy would have stayed without LoS and Dark Verse was never fixed, you'd still end up failing to detonate things behind wall and everywhere else since they might have never gotten primed in the first place due to a bugged Dark Verse, which bugged out from several things, including Dante blocking it and small terrain pieces aswell.

Right now the skills work properly and the only time you wont see a detonation is if the target is actually blocked from LoS. On the otherhand you deal so much damage with Dark Verse that a reason to detonate behind a wall seems rather pointless and a waste of energy/casting time.

19 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

Sure, subjectivity and opinions are not irrelevant somehow i feel like you would say only objective stuff matter but that is far from the truth speaking about a game, how your players feel when they play is extremely importante, what you just said also means they should always try to leave as many ways to play as posible to let more people enjoy the frame and should also mean you have no reason to opose people asking for the removal of LoS.

Player feelings should really not stop changes incase they go against an idea the devs have to reduce something like what they see as disruptive gameplay or similar. If the power stays intact all that is needed is for players to adapt to a different style. And like I've said they can remove the LoS and instead remove the innate damage of Final Verse to solve low level nuking if that was the issue. But there seems to be other things they wanted to remove by adding LoS.

19 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

You are defending bad changes, adding LoS to Tragedy was a bad change, improving LoS in general is a good change but they are not related, one can exist without the other.

I dont think it was a bad change. You can feel it was a bad change if you like, that doesnt mean I defend a bad change, since again it is subjective and not objective. I'm of the opinion that more things should have LoS added to them.

19 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

a nerf is to reduce the effectiveness or power of something, their intentions is not relevant, it was a nerf anyway, not that it really matter, most people care about is LoS the nerf into buff for pageflight is pretty irrelevant

A nerf is a targetted adjustment to something already intended as part of the game. Pageflight was not intended to have that interaction, so not a nerf when it was removed, it was a simply bug fix. It getting added back was a buff to the frame since it gave him something that wasnt intended in his original design.

20 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

Quite literally everywhere tbh, it annoys the #*!% out of me every time i run around a corner and the enemies i just marked are no longer being tagged, yesterday it happened in a in a lua mision where i was invaded by misery, he dodge into a corner, netracell were i moved a bit and bam half the enemies i marked no longer detonating, also duviri where the terrain #*!%s LoS a lot, also in a cave on earth while doing Cetus bounties and then also on the stupid small passages and hallways in Necralisk vaults... want me to keep going?? how many examples you need?, the issue is everywhere its very annoying, stuff that i marked should get detonated is as simple as that. all those are SP so the base damage i deal to enemies is irrelevant, only ppl marked is taking any real damage.

How horrible is your Dark Verse damage then? I asked you about places where you feel like you need to use Tragedy in the first place. And seriously, Cetus and Deimos bounties? Your Dark Verse needs to be detonated in bounties? I mean, it is entry level SP levels. And where in Duviri (I assume you mean undercroft) do you ever get blocked? It's as open as it can get. I've had zero issues with him and landing his skills in netracells/labs. I hit enemies below me that have been primed without any failures even if I'm not looking in their direction or being close to the edge of the elevated part I'm standing on since I'm priming for a detonation in a side tunnel. It all ends up going boom and dying, both down below and in the tunnel I just primed.

I had issue up until the patch last week which fixed Dark Verse properly, but none since then because now both skills work as they should for priming and detonation. You are exaggerating how the terrain interfears now, since only solid walls block it. Not even doorways that #*!% up LoS for Kullervo's teleport interfear with DV/Trag.

[tartcactus]

Tragedy is tragically worthless now.

 

Also, trouble ticket now on day 13 of being ignored. Guess DE "balanced" customer service too.

[Karyst]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is just how changes work. They saw a reason to change a certain style potential since they saw something wrong with it. And since his power is intact there is nothing wrong with that if they saw some interaction as unhealthy.

No one is saying that having abilities to mark is inconsistency. And the part I bolded shows you dont know where the root of the problem was. Yes people claimed it was Tragedy getting LoS that resulted in inconsistency, but that was also not true as can even be seen in the kengineer video talked about here, and even mentioned by the poster of that comment. That skill has been the bugged part of detonations and everything else since day 1 because it failed to prime since release. So if Tragedy would have stayed without LoS and Dark Verse was never fixed, you'd still end up failing to detonate things behind wall and everywhere else since they might have never gotten primed in the first place due to a bugged Dark Verse, which bugged out from several things, including Dante blocking it and small terrain pieces aswell.

Right now the skills work properly and the only time you wont see a detonation is if the target is actually blocked from LoS. On the otherhand you deal so much damage with Dark Verse that a reason to detonate behind a wall seems rather pointless and a waste of energy/casting time.

Player feelings should really not stop changes incase they go against an idea the devs have to reduce something like what they see as disruptive gameplay or similar. If the power stays intact all that is needed is for players to adapt to a different style. And like I've said they can remove the LoS and instead remove the innate damage of Final Verse to solve low level nuking if that was the issue. But there seems to be other things they wanted to remove by adding LoS.

I dont think it was a bad change. You can feel it was a bad change if you like, that doesnt mean I defend a bad change, since again it is subjective and not objective. I'm of the opinion that more things should have LoS added to them.

A nerf is a targetted adjustment to something already intended as part of the game. Pageflight was not intended to have that interaction, so not a nerf when it was removed, it was a simply bug fix. It getting added back was a buff to the frame since it gave him something that wasnt intended in his original design.

How horrible is your Dark Verse damage then? I asked you about places where you feel like you need to use Tragedy in the first place. And seriously, Cetus and Deimos bounties? Your Dark Verse needs to be detonated in bounties? I mean, it is entry level SP levels. And where in Duviri (I assume you mean undercroft) do you ever get blocked? It's as open as it can get. I've had zero issues with him and landing his skills in netracells/labs. I hit enemies below me that have been primed without any failures even if I'm not looking in their direction or being close to the edge of the elevated part I'm standing on since I'm priming for a detonation in a side tunnel. It all ends up going boom and dying, both down below and in the tunnel I just primed.

I had issue up until the patch last week which fixed Dark Verse properly, but none since then because now both skills work as they should for priming and detonation. You are exaggerating how the terrain interfears now, since only solid walls block it. Not even doorways that #*!% up LoS for Kullervo's teleport interfear with DV/Trag.

Lot of people are saying that abilities having Los is in inconsistency for once again multiple reasons regurgitated multiple times on this forum alone. For those not paying attention, one enemy covering fully line of sight on an enemy behind them, visible in the Kengineers video as an example, also based on my experience before I even read patch notes from update where they added Los, environment obstacles which there are plenty in Sanctum, furthermore it was highlighted here that using 3 3 4 combo is infact inconsistent because an enemy may walk behind an obstacle before you can cast 4 and thus not detonate, an obstacle being anything that counts as one, this is inconsistent even when compared to Saryn that can "mark" with her 1 that requires Los and then blast an area that doesn't have Los and it increases spore damage, sevagoths  sow requires Los but reap that detonates enemies marked with sow does NOT have Los and so on. Just few examples to bring the users up do date with mechanics present in the game at this moment compared to subject in question named Dante.

Edited April 17 by Karyst

[Slayer-.]

 

On 2024-04-16 at 4:19 AM, tartcactus said:

Refund request open 10 days with no response.

 

21 hours ago, tartcactus said:

11 days with no response from the customer service team. One reviewer mentioned average response time from DE has dropped to around 14 days. Hey, don't hurt yourselves, guys!

11 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

 

What I do when the ticket has been open for a while is to reply in the same ticket with some more info, which seems to bump it to be noticed, especially when it's a timed event refund.

 

19 minutes ago, tartcactus said:

Also, trouble ticket now on day 13 of being ignored. Guess DE "balanced" customer service too.

Did you try my idea? ^ I posted further up.    

They may be busy, or ignoring you. --->  You are being polite in your tickets I hope.

Or they are just busy, refer to the below picture. 

Quote

 

 

[tartcactus]

Slayer,

I thank you for your suggestion. I actually had been adding to my ticket each day and I have had zero response. I have never had this experience in the 7 years I have been playing Warframe.

[Slayer-.]

7 minutes ago, tartcactus said:

Slayer,

I thank you for your suggestion. I actually had been adding to my ticket each day and I have had zero response. I have never had this experience in the 7 years I have been playing Warframe.

Sorry to hear, that sucks, hope it gets resolved, I've always had tickets answered in a reasonable time.

[tartcactus]

Up to now, so have I!!!

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

13 hours ago, Karyst said:

You seem to think that we are here in need of conviction and greatly fail to realize that we played Dante on release, some of us with maxed out builds and comparing that to what it is now is a great disappointment

No, I'm saying that none of that matters at this point. It doesn't matter how good his performance QOL used to be if he was overperforming to the point DE decided he needed changes. It's the fact he was overperforming and able to mass nuke in a non-LOS fashion that led us here in the first place. I don't care one way or the other about anyone's FEELINGS on this; you can be happy with the change, or sad about it, or angry. It doesn't matter how you feel about it, and much of what sympathy I had has been wasted on people determined to be sticks in the mud rather than face reality. I agree that it sucks, but how you feel about it doesn't matter.

What matters is that you are citing your feelings as though it's sufficient justification for a reversion of the changes, and I do not agree. Clearly, neither does DE. "I am sad/angry, so you should agree with me and do what I want" is not compelling, and I'm glad DE is holding the course rather than taking some of the other options available to them as laid out above. DE are not saints, but they're not evil, either. They messed up, made the best of a crappy situation, and nothing that they say will satisfy those of you still complaining and demanding they go back to having the problem that they fixed.

4 hours ago, Karyst said:

Lot of people are saying that abilities having Los is in inconsistency for once again multiple reasons regurgitated multiple times on this forum alone. For those not paying attention, one enemy covering fully line of sight on an enemy behind them, visible in the Kengineers video as an example, also based on my experience before I even read patch notes from update where they added Los, environment obstacles which there are plenty in Sanctum, furthermore it was highlighted here that using 3 3 4 combo is infact inconsistent because an enemy may walk behind an obstacle before you can cast 4 and thus not detonate, an obstacle being anything that counts as one, this is inconsistent even when compared to Saryn that can "mark" with her 1 that requires Los and then blast an area that doesn't have Los and it increases spore damage, sevagoths  sow requires Los but reap that detonates enemies marked with sow does NOT have Los and so on. Just few examples to bring the users up do date with mechanics present in the game at this moment compared to subject in question named Dante.

Dante could detonate any enemy with Heat, Toxin, or Slash DoTs on them. Not just the ones he marked, but any enemy with those statuses applied. LOS is a good and necessary balancing metric, and as I said before, I'm tired of everyone pretending that's unreasonable. I illustrated this with the comparisons earlier to Octavia and Mesa. If their abilities were not LOS-restricted, and could shoot through walls, no one would have anything to do within their radius. As it is, LOS-restrictions are good for an ability that doesn't require Dante being the one marking enemies. If your squad is running around generating slash and heat procs, it doesn't matter if Dante tagged them with his 3 first, because he could detonate your allies' generated procs too. He can still do that, but it's the fact that he could cover thousands of square meters and detonate ally-generated procs was probably the main reason DE realized he needed a nerf.

Edited April 17 by Armadillidium_vulgare

[tartcactus]

Dante is still tragically nerfed. You don't put Loss of Sight on an AOE ability.

DE still avoiding the truth that they put binders on an AOE ability. Dante Bound And Hotfix #7 offered NO, translated as zero attempts to salvage the wreck they have made of Tragedy. For that we have to wait for the next Cert build. In the meantime we are left with Tragedy looking more like a travesty. If you confess that Loss of Sight is that inconsistent, turn off Loss of Sight, for crying out loud. Then you can work on it as long as you want and it will not be decreasing the fun factor for anyone. Instead, we are stuck with a now lame ability for the foreseeable future, if not forever. Loss of Sight could be turned off by setting one parameter and rolled out as a hotfix.

 

Two weeks to the day. That is how long I had to wait to get a response on my trouble ticket. Either there are a bunch of unhappy customers or the support team just doesn't care anymore, or both. I am thankful to get a response, just really disappointed at the response time. Seems like Primed Disappointment has been dropped into a lot of areas of the game lately.

 

Dante goes on the MR dust heap.

Edited April 18 by tartcactus

[Karyst]

10 hours ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

No, I'm saying that none of that matters at this point. It doesn't matter how good his performance QOL used to be if he was overperforming to the point DE decided he needed changes. It's the fact he was overperforming and able to mass nuke in a non-LOS fashion that led us here in the first place. I don't care one way or the other about anyone's FEELINGS on this; you can be happy with the change, or sad about it, or angry. It doesn't matter how you feel about it, and much of what sympathy I had has been wasted on people determined to be sticks in the mud rather than face reality. I agree that it sucks, but how you feel about it doesn't matter.

What matters is that you are citing your feelings as though it's sufficient justification for a reversion of the changes, and I do not agree. Clearly, neither does DE. "I am sad/angry, so you should agree with me and do what I want" is not compelling, and I'm glad DE is holding the course rather than taking some of the other options available to them as laid out above. DE are not saints, but they're not evil, either. They messed up, made the best of a crappy situation, and nothing that they say will satisfy those of you still complaining and demanding they go back to having the problem that they fixed.

Dante could detonate any enemy with Heat, Toxin, or Slash DoTs on them. Not just the ones he marked, but any enemy with those statuses applied. LOS is a good and necessary balancing metric, and as I said before, I'm tired of everyone pretending that's unreasonable. I illustrated this with the comparisons earlier to Octavia and Mesa. If their abilities were not LOS-restricted, and could shoot through walls, no one would have anything to do within their radius. As it is, LOS-restrictions are good for an ability that doesn't require Dante being the one marking enemies. If your squad is running around generating slash and heat procs, it doesn't matter if Dante tagged them with his 3 first, because he could detonate your allies' generated procs too. He can still do that, but it's the fact that he could cover thousands of square meters and detonate ally-generated procs was probably the main reason DE realized he needed a nerf.

Curious how you mentioned Octavia and Mesa yet I gave you example of Saryn and Sevagoth. In the latest update 35.5.7 we read: Caliban’s Sentient Wrath (Rendered Check) 

• In addition to rendered checking, we’ve also made improvements to address issues where LoS checks would fail on clearly visible enemies that are behind terrain. Now would that class as Los inconsistency that I informed you about earlier? Or
• Fixed the following Warframe abilities not ignoring terrain for enemies that are up to 5 meters from the ability starting point: 
• Dante’s Dark Verse
• Garuda’s Seeking Talons
• Mag’s Magnetize explosion (specifically on HOLD cast) would these inconsistencies that you were clearly unaware of while going back and forth with arguments that were not based on knowledge nor experience finally open your eyes and make you understand what I am talking about? And there is more of this to come. 

[Nero.DMC]

15 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is just how changes work. They saw a reason to change a certain style potential since they saw something wrong with it. And since his power is intact there is nothing wrong with that if they saw some interaction as unhealthy.

that is the problem, there was nothing wrong with it, it already exist too, its not even new. Given the state of the first patch i think you are giving waaaaaay too much credit to how much they tested and considered things through

Quote

No one is saying that having abilities to mark is inconsistency. And the part I bolded shows you dont know where the root of the problem was. Yes people claimed it was Tragedy getting LoS that resulted in inconsistency, but that was also not true as can even be seen in the kengineer video talked about here, and even mentioned by the poster of that comment. That skill has been the bugged part of detonations and everything else since day 1 because it failed to prime since release. So if Tragedy would have stayed without LoS and Dark Verse was never fixed, you'd still end up failing to detonate things behind wall and everywhere else since they might have never gotten primed in the first place due to a bugged Dark Verse, which bugged out from several things, including Dante blocking it and small terrain pieces aswell.

You are trying to create a problem than never existed to begin with, nobody was annoyed with dark verse, everyone liked Dante on release, you are literally the only person i have even heard of having a problem with original dark verse, but sure it got better nice, we can drop talking about dark verse now, its completely irrelevant to the discusion about tragedy keeping LoS.

Quote

Right now the skills work properly and the only time you wont see a detonation is if the target is actually blocked from LoS. On the otherhand you deal so much damage with Dark Verse that a reason to detonate behind a wall seems rather pointless and a waste of energy/casting time.

100% disagree, the whole point of tragedy is not having to wait for stuff to die from dots, you detonate them in order to not wait the 2 or 3 ticks (or whatever many ticks it can take for something to die) like could you play without tragedy? sure it would just be a lot of waiting for stuff dying from damage over time, dante would still be strong as well, he would just be really annoying to play.

Quote

Player feelings should really not stop changes incase they go against an idea the devs have to reduce something like what they see as disruptive gameplay or similar. If the power stays intact all that is needed is for players to adapt to a different style. And like I've said they can remove the LoS and instead remove the innate damage of Final Verse to solve low level nuking if that was the issue. But there seems to be other things they wanted to remove by adding LoS.

how players feels while playing is the single most important thing in a game, if players get bored they dont play and dont pay. the game needs to feel fun and enjoyable, Dante itself dropped drastically in popularity from the first week to now, a lot of people were having fun and spending money with him, some people still do but a lot was lost just for that useless change. It does not benefit much and it does not even make him weaker, its just an annoyance and on top of that they released the patch in such a state was even worse.

Quote

I dont think it was a bad change. You can feel it was a bad change if you like, that doesnt mean I defend a bad change, since again it is subjective and not objective. I'm of the opinion that more things should have LoS added to them.

Sure you can have your opinion, its just not shared by most players, the change was bad (you like it or not), its pointless, annoying, and literally made ppl stop playing a fun frame. Annoying your players will never be a good change.

Quote

A nerf is a targetted adjustment to something already intended as part of the game. Pageflight was not intended to have that interaction, so not a nerf when it was removed, it was a simply bug fix. It getting added back was a buff to the frame since it gave him something that wasnt intended in his original design.

Again discussing something really irrelevant, but no, your intentions are irrelevant, if you make something weaker you just nerfed it, definitions do not change based on what you wanted to do, was he stronger before the patch? YES, was he weaker after the patch? YES -> thats a nerf, the original design is irrelevant.

Quote

How horrible is your Dark Verse damage then? I asked you about places where you feel like you need to use Tragedy in the first place. And seriously, Cetus and Deimos bounties? Your Dark Verse needs to be detonated in bounties? I mean, it is entry level SP levels. And where in Duviri (I assume you mean undercroft) do you ever get blocked? It's as open as it can get. I've had zero issues with him and landing his skills in netracells/labs. I hit enemies below me that have been primed without any failures even if I'm not looking in their direction or being close to the edge of the elevated part I'm standing on since I'm priming for a detonation in a side tunnel. It all ends up going boom and dying, both down below and in the tunnel I just primed.

You hit the nail in the head here, its not, wich makes me all the more annoyed when i have to wait 2 ticks for something to die when i already hit him and detonated the group he was part of... but based on something out of my control he is slighly out of LoS so now i have to either go back and hit him with something else or wait for him to die... annoying AF and it literally does not change anything he is a dead man walking but my detonator skill no longer works because he moved a bit to the left, just the extra annoyance of having to go back or just move on and let it die once i am out of loot range...

Quote

I had issue up until the patch last week which fixed Dark Verse properly, but none since then because now both skills work as they should for priming and detonation. You are exaggerating how the terrain interfears now, since only solid walls block it. Not even doorways that #*!% up LoS for Kullervo's teleport interfear with DV/Trag.

i think you just do not realize how many times enemies get stuck or slighly out of your LoS, maybe you just play in a differente way than i do, i play marking and detonating moving between packs, i completely dislike spamming tragedy on every pack, i want to mark and detonate, loot and move on. not 223 223 223 spam (wich is how some people play and its completely valid, not having LoS would not change how they can play, it would just let me enjoy how i liked Dante)

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

2 hours ago, Karyst said:

Curious how you mentioned Octavia and Mesa yet I gave you example of Saryn and Sevagoth. In the latest update 35.5.7 we read: Caliban’s Sentient Wrath (Rendered Check) 

• In addition to rendered checking, we’ve also made improvements to address issues where LoS checks would fail on clearly visible enemies that are behind terrain. Now would that class as Los inconsistency that I informed you about earlier? Or
• Fixed the following Warframe abilities not ignoring terrain for enemies that are up to 5 meters from the ability starting point: 
• Dante’s Dark Verse
• Garuda’s Seeking Talons
• Mag’s Magnetize explosion (specifically on HOLD cast) would these inconsistencies that you were clearly unaware of while going back and forth with arguments that were not based on knowledge nor experience finally open your eyes and make you understand what I am talking about? And there is more of this to come. 

I'm glad to see DE is continuing to improve the new LOS system! Seriously, citing DE fixing bugs as though it's a bad thing is weird way to argue. Oh no! They're making the game better, whatever shall we do?!

Anyway, I'm pretty sure my neighbors heard the slap of my facepalm when I read this. Sevagoth's ability only works on enemies that he's primed, and his base range is half that of Dante's (it's 16 meters, which is close enough), and it features damage falloff in case you forgot. The augment makes it more convenient to nuke with him, but it's a far cry from anything nearing Dante's level of nuke before the changes. Poor example if you're trying to support your argument that DE should revert Dante's LOS, since Sevagoth's nuke requires more effort for less gain. Also requires farming Sevagoth. 3/10

Saryn is a bit more reasonable an example. However... Saryn's spores have limited spread without refreshing/popping, and a self-limiting damage growth that deals corrosive damage over time. Her 4 only 'detonates' enemies that she has primed with her spores, and while the range is big, it isn't as big as Dante's nuke and it doesn't scale nearly as well. Though with the corrosive shard changes it's a bit more viable, since viral is good against grineer and corpus flesh (ironically, full stripping can actually LOWER her spores damage in some cases because at 14 stacks the corrosive damage loses its bonus against ferrite). That said, I agree, she probably needs some adjustments.

So, Sevagoth has a limited range non-LOS AOE that requires HIM to prime, and Saryn is too strong and also needs nerfs, but still isn't as absurd as Dante's instantaneous massive nuke. Remember, we're comparing these frames to a 70 meter range DoT detonator that multiplies DoT damage applied from any source, including those applied by teammates. For Dante, other players were his spores, and the detonations had to be capped at 1 billion because it was causing issues otherwise. He was, by far, the strongest nuke frame in the game prior to his nerf, and as it is he's still incredibly powerful.

Non-LOS AOE abilities generally have limitations placed upon them, limitations that Dante's Tragedy didn't have. That's why he was worthy of a nerf. If Saryn is overpowered, and Dante is a frame who can nuke better than Saryn across a larger radius.... Well, a nerf is probably warranted.

Quote

finally open your eyes and make you understand what I am talking about

I understand what you're talking about. The issue is that you're wrong.

Edited April 18 by Armadillidium_vulgare

[Karyst]

16 hours ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

I'm glad to see DE is continuing to improve the new LOS system! Seriously, citing DE fixing bugs as though it's a bad thing is weird way to argue. Oh no! They're making the game better, whatever shall we do?!

Anyway, I'm pretty sure my neighbors heard the slap of my facepalm when I read this. Sevagoth's ability only works on enemies that he's primed, and his base range is half that of Dante's (it's 16 meters, which is close enough), and it features damage falloff in case you forgot. The augment makes it more convenient to nuke with him, but it's a far cry from anything nearing Dante's level of nuke before the changes. Poor example if you're trying to support your argument that DE should revert Dante's LOS, since Sevagoth's nuke requires more effort for less gain. Also requires farming Sevagoth. 3/10

Saryn is a bit more reasonable an example. However... Saryn's spores have limited spread without refreshing/popping, and a self-limiting damage growth that deals corrosive damage over time. Her 4 only 'detonates' enemies that she has primed with her spores, and while the range is big, it isn't as big as Dante's nuke and it doesn't scale nearly as well. Though with the corrosive shard changes it's a bit more viable, since viral is good against grineer and corpus flesh (ironically, full stripping can actually LOWER her spores damage in some cases because at 14 stacks the corrosive damage loses its bonus against ferrite). That said, I agree, she probably needs some adjustments.

So, Sevagoth has a limited range non-LOS AOE that requires HIM to prime, and Saryn is too strong and also needs nerfs, but still isn't as absurd as Dante's instantaneous massive nuke. Remember, we're comparing these frames to a 70 meter range DoT detonator that multiplies DoT damage applied from any source, including those applied by teammates. For Dante, other players were his spores, and the detonations had to be capped at 1 billion because it was causing issues otherwise. He was, by far, the strongest nuke frame in the game prior to his nerf, and as it is he's still incredibly powerful.

Non-LOS AOE abilities generally have limitations placed upon them, limitations that Dante's Tragedy didn't have. That's why he was worthy of a nerf. If Saryn is overpowered, and Dante is a frame who can nuke better than Saryn across a larger radius.... Well, a nerf is probably warranted.

I understand what you're talking about. The issue is that you're wrong.

Yet again you are talking about something I didn't mention so I'm just gonna repeat it one more time. I pointed out to you that the Los itself was inconsistent and that it wouldn't work everytime to which I quoted DE's latest patch notes recognizing what I was talking about and improving the Los itself. When the Los isn't working everytime it sometimes  leaves enemies primed by dark verse not detonate using Tragedy. You are either not paying attention or don't care at this point and nobody cares if you facepalm or not, you are the one that argues with strange arguements and some of them are even against human nature.This is a fool's way to argue who doesn't seek to come to a result and only argues for sake of arguing.. Also to say that Sevagoth's nuke requires more effort for less gain highlights your ignorance because Sevagoth's nuke is %hp while Dante's is not nor does Dante's nuke does AoE blast around detonated targets.Yet you say that Dante could detonate procs applied by other than him, can he not do that anymore?

 

14 hours ago, Karyst said:

Yet again you are talking about something I didn't mention so I'm just gonna repeat it one more time. I pointed out to you that the Los itself was inconsistent and that it wouldn't work everytime to which I quoted DE's latest patch notes recognizing what I was talking about and improving the Los itself. When the Los isn't working everytime it sometimes  leaves enemies primed by dark verse not detonate using Tragedy. You are either not paying attention or don't care at this point and nobody cares if you facepalm or not, you are the one that argues with strange arguements and some of them are even against human nature.This is a fool's way to argue who doesn't seek to come to a result and only argues for sake of arguing.. Also to say that Sevagoth's nuke requires more effort for less gain highlights your ignorance because Sevagoth's nuke is %hp while Dante's is not nor does Dante's nuke does AoE blast around detonated targets.Yet you say that Dante could detonate procs applied by other than him, can he not do that anymore?

From latest update patch notes: While the quality and consistency of LoS checks has improved significantly, we're still not 100% satisfied and sometimes the results are still unpredictable. The team is investigating LoS checks at large occasionally having odd interactions with terrain, enemies, etc. which is causing inconsistencies in the checks. We are looking to have this resolved in the next Cert update (more info on what that means here). 

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

33 minutes ago, Karyst said:

Yet again you are talking about something I didn't mention so I'm just gonna repeat it one more time. I pointed out to you that the Los itself was inconsistent and that it wouldn't work everytime to which I quoted DE's latest patch notes recognizing what I was talking about and improving the Los itself. When the Los isn't working everytime it sometimes  leaves enemies primed by dark verse not detonate using Tragedy. You are either not paying attention or don't care at this point and nobody cares if you facepalm or not, you are the one that argues with strange arguements and some of them are even against human nature.This is a fool's way to argue who doesn't seek to come to a result and only argues for sake of arguing..

LOS checks aren't perfect, and that's something DE is working to address. So what's the problem? That they're not fixing it fast enough? Do you want them to stop working on LOS improvements? What's the issue? You couldn't possibly be arguing for them to remove LOS entirely, that would break the game six different ways to Sunday, and is clearly something they're not going to do.

34 minutes ago, Karyst said:

Also to say that Sevagoth's nuke requires more effort for less gain highlights your ignorance because Sevagoth's nuke is %hp while Dante's is not nor does Dante's nuke does AoE blast around detonated targets.

Sevagoth's nuke shines with high enemy density or using his grouping, as well as an armor strip and viral priming. It deals BLAST damage, for crying out loud, and you have to work around that. Its AOE is LITERALLY half that of Dante's, and barely greater than that if you detonate an enemy at the edge of the AOE. How is this difficult to understand? Stop trying to pretend you have a Sevagotcha and give it up already. Dante's nuke was broken OP, and nothing in the game really could compare no matter how you try to twist and force it.

Dante could detonate procs applied by other players, in a non-LOS AOE. That means someone 70 meters away in another tile could be priming enemies with heat or slash or toxin, and Dante's Tragedy would be able to detonate and multiply that damage. And let's not forget he can actually hit about 85 meters with a maximized range build. Almost 100 meters. That's insane. Broken, overpowered, and in desperate need of a nerf. You could be happily killing things two rooms away and BAM! Where'd all those enemies you were shooting at go? 

Quote

Yet you say that Dante could detonate procs applied by other than him, can he not do that anymore?

Yes, he can still do that, but now it requires LOS to those enemies, which makes it fine and balanced imo. It's still ridiculously strong, but it's not like he's killing everything primed within a 22k square meter area anymore.

[Karyst]

46 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

LOS checks aren't perfect, and that's something DE is working to address. So what's the problem? That they're not fixing it fast enough? Do you want them to stop working on LOS improvements? What's the issue? You couldn't possibly be arguing for them to remove LOS entirely, that would break the game six different ways to Sunday, and is clearly something they're not going to do.

Sevagoth's nuke shines with high enemy density or using his grouping, as well as an armor strip and viral priming. It deals BLAST damage, for crying out loud, and you have to work around that. Its AOE is LITERALLY half that of Dante's, and barely greater than that if you detonate an enemy at the edge of the AOE. How is this difficult to understand? Stop trying to pretend you have a Sevagotcha and give it up already. Dante's nuke was broken OP, and nothing in the game really could compare no matter how you try to twist and force it.

Dante could detonate procs applied by other players, in a non-LOS AOE. That means someone 70 meters away in another tile could be priming enemies with heat or slash or toxin, and Dante's Tragedy would be able to detonate and multiply that damage. And let's not forget he can actually hit about 85 meters with a maximized range build. Almost 100 meters. That's insane. Broken, overpowered, and in desperate need of a nerf. You could be happily killing things two rooms away and BAM! Where'd all those enemies you were shooting at go? 

Yes, he can still do that, but now it requires LOS to those enemies, which makes it fine and balanced imo. It's still ridiculously strong, but it's not like he's killing everything primed within a 22k square meter area anymore.

Your replies only highlight that you don't pay attention to the things you replying to and continue to educate people that already know and told that they know and because of that, I'm out.