Frost overguard

[Famecans]

17 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

This is also a very strange build. When it comes to performance, the whole idea is absolutely lousy and hardly makes sense...
The author should rather think about what goal he is actually aiming for!

When it comes to fun, the whole thing is no problem. but otherwise rather epic facepalm!

Believe me this is efficient, my currently primary is Tenet Plasmor but I will move to Tenet Envoy Cold or Kitgun Residual Arcane Cold.

Note that Frost is not an enemy accelerator warframe, Frost is also not an enemy vaccum warframe so the rule is to paralyze, delay, knockdown and weaken the largest number of enemies in the crowd to quickly destroy everything with explosive weapons. Note that paralyzed, slowed down and knocked down frozen enemies have less chance of hitting the globe, note that the globe high range also reaches more enemies into the globe, enemies inside the globe cannot destroy the globe and are slow, enemies inside the globe are attracted out of globe when I activate Spectrorage and this generates a lot of energy orbs as frozen enemies gives me time to deploy Spectrorage, Arcane Eruption delays nullifiers... I'm the best mission cooler guy.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Famecans:

Believe me this is efficient, my currently primary is Tenet Plasmor but I will move to Tenet Envoy Cold or Kitgun Residual Arcane Cold.

Note that Frost is not an enemy accelerator warframe, Frost is also not an enemy vaccum warframe so the rule is to paralyze, delay, knockdown and weaken the largest number of enemies in the crowd to quickly destroy everything with explosive weapons. Note that paralyzed, slowed down and knocked down frozen enemies have less chance of hitting the globe, note that the globe high range also reaches more enemies into the globe, enemies inside the globe cannot destroy the globe and are slow, enemies inside the globe are attracted out of globe when I activate Spectrorage and this generates a lot of energy orbs as frozen enemies gives me time to deploy Spectrorage, Arcane Eruption delays nullifiers... I'm the best mission cooler guy.

It also looks efficient. My Wukung has a similar structure and is a kick-ass speed runner with constant energy generation.

I'm concerned about something else. Because Frost has lost his face and is competing with Khora, Limbo, Zephyr and even Nekros etc. They all do the job much better. and when SP came out I looked for solutions. And Frost was my favorite Warframe back then and I played with it for at least 2 years.

If it works for you, that's great! everyone has their own taste!

Edited April 20 by Venus-Venera

[Shady_Tenno]

22 hours ago, Rathalio said:

I've never been talking about level cap, just early steel path is enough to challenge overguard. Overguard melts like ice under the sun and is meant to be that way. And I didn't claim either that it should be balanced around that. Just that overguard is good for its additional layer of gating + the status immunity and that looking for high value and tank with it is not the point of overguard. So asking for more value would realistically change almost nothing.

I mean, if overguard is weak in general, then that's even more of a reason to buff it. Right? But I don't see Dante or even Styanax having a big issue rebuilding their overguard to survive in steel path. Don't just afk in the middle of a goup of enemies and you'll be fine. But in order for that to be true for frost, his overguard needs a big buff. 

[Rathalio]

29 minutes ago, Shady_Tenno said:

I mean, if overguard is weak in general, then that's even more of a reason to buff it. Right? But I don't see Dante or even Styanax having a big issue rebuilding their overguard to survive in steel path. Don't just afk in the middle of a goup of enemies and you'll be fine. But in order for that to be true for frost, his overguard needs a big buff. 

It's already a very convenient and powerful addition to you warframes. Also, I still didn't say it was weak. I simply said that the value of overguard doesn't matter really matter. Also Dante really have a stupidly easy access to overguard, almost an easier access than with Kullervo and Kullervo is supposed to be "the overguard guy". So yeah with that kind of warframe or Styanax continuously spamming his 4, you'll have you overguard up all the time. Yet it's mostly a because of how easily you can generate it rather than its value for tanking. And with Frost you have a good enough access to refresh often your overguard and benefit from the 0.5sec of gating and the status protection comfortably. Yes, Frost doesn't bring high value, but he already brings the only two things that truly matter with overguard. Talking about overguard as if it was weak and suggesting to make it stronger than it is rn would mostly risk making warframes that don't have access to overguard irrelevant in future content tbh. And that's something no one wishes for.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Or you know, build better/smarter. Precision Intensify is a thing. Duration is a dump stat for the most part on Frost unless you use Biting Frost. Hell you don't even need overguard in the first place if enemies are frozen solid and not even able to move a finger. Treat it as a safety net rather than a health bar.

[PollexMessier]

14 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Hell you don't even need overguard in the first place if enemies are frozen solid and not even able to move a finger.

Spoken like someone who has never played frost in high-level content. (And by "high level" I pretty much just mean lvl 150-250 steel path)

Not every enemy can be frozen. And the ones that can't, very much like to just one-shot your over-guard right off of you the instant they have an opportunity to hit-scan you from basically any distance they can have line-of-sight on you from. Which is also a severe issue with his passive augment, because the only enemies you want the buff from that augment against, are immune to it.

And you better believe your globe isn't going to last long enough to cast your 4 more than once unless you have a stupid amount of casting speed, and the instant it's down, so is your overguard. And even if it does last, now you're just littering globes everywhere to avoid taking damage long enough after casting your 4 to actually keep the benefit from it. Unless you spend the extra energy to get rid of them, which you're already dumping way too much of just needing to cast globe to cast your 4 to not die. An issue Archon Flow would fix if it was "on enemies affected by abilities that deal cold damage" instead of "on enemies killed by abilities that deal cold damage"

Edited April 21 by PollexMessier

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 12 minutes, PollexMessier a dit :

Spoken like someone who has never played frost in high-level content. (And by "high level" I pretty much just mean lvl 150-250 steel path)

Couldn't be more wrong in your assumptions, most played frame's Frost Prime and I rarely do anything outside steel path.

il y a 14 minutes, PollexMessier a dit :

Not every enemy can be frozen.

Those that can't are either hit by a higher priority CC or immune to CC altogether. 4 cold procs is still fair game. -65% speed. 10% off a Slowva and you want me to consider them a threat? Really?

il y a 18 minutes, PollexMessier a dit :

And the ones that can't, very much like to just one-shot your over-guard right off of you the instant they have an opportunity to hit-scan you from basically any distance they can have line-of-sight on you from.

That I can build right back up with an other Avalanche, since I have sufficient investment in energy economy and have a source of casting speed outside of modslots. Not only that, but enemies who pose any sort of threat can obliterate Overguard no matter how high you've built it, considering they've scaled sufficiently to be called a threat in the first place.

il y a 24 minutes, PollexMessier a dit :

Which is also a severe issue with his passive augment, because the only enemies you want the buff from that augment against, are immune to it.

That's a benefit in disguise. It's a modslot I don't need to keep for bandaids. Besides guns have brought upon us a level of powercreep so insane that 200% crit chance and crit damage is of little consequence : a oneshot is still a oneshot. Frost isn't a caster dps unless you want to meme with globe and walls, so by all means you should be bringing good guns if you care for your own safety.

il y a 27 minutes, PollexMessier a dit :

And you better believe your globe isn't going to last long enough to cast your 4 more than once unless you have a stupid amount of casting speed, and the instant it's down, so is your overguard.

Wow, surprise surprise, yellow shards grant casting speed. Are you telling me it's unreasonable to use them on Frost to counter his ONE downside? One blue tauforged for energy puts me at 500 and 4 yellows for casting speed grant me 100% casting speed. Not only that, but your argument falls flat on its butt when you consider Snowglobe has 4 seconds of complete immunity during which it absorbs all incoming damage to convert it into health. If my overguard is down the moment Snowglobe is done, then it simply never is, one cast every 4 seconds is more than generous on energy economy.

il y a 32 minutes, PollexMessier a dit :

And even if it does last, now you're just littering globes everywhere to avoid taking damage long enough after casting your 4 to actually keep the benefit from it.

That's assuming you do a whole lot of moving around and casting your globe while you're outside of it, which Frost doesn't really need to do in the first place. But should you do it, globes can be destroyed by pressing 1, which is actually not the subsume slot, contrary to so many wrong builds I've seen in crappy popular content creators. Overguard from Frost's 4 is only a third of the picture, it's a CC (cc that still has a component on overguarded enemies thanks to cold procs) and an armor strip, there's plenty of benefit outside funky green health.

il y a 39 minutes, PollexMessier a dit :

Unless you spend the extra energy to get rid of them, which you're already dumping way too much of just needing to cast globe to cast your 4 to not die.

Can't say I've had much energy issues at all with Frost, I'm running Fleeting Expertise and Arcane Energize as well as Zenurik. A globe's 20 energy, an avalanche's 40. No reason to build for any of it, I'm not using Nourish, and I don't need to keep my enemies frozen solid, cold stacks do it plenty good.

il y a 46 minutes, PollexMessier a dit :

An issue Archon Flow would fix if it was "on enemies affected by abilities that deal cold damage" instead of "on enemies killed by abilities that deal cold damage"

But it's not even necessary. Frost's lack of channeling abilities means he's always free to get some from Zenurik zones anyway. If you're relying on a lucky Arcane Energize proc for your entire energy economy, it's on you for shooting yourself in the foot.

 

 

We're playing a game where Precision Intensify is a thing that basically guarantees Avalanche to fully strip (which is the only thing you should be asking of it in the first place), modding Frost to be reaching certain stat thresholds has never been easier, yet people will argue left and right to make it seem like he's got it bad. Yet I'm the one feeling bad for playing him now he's become so "overtuned" since Veilbreaker. The Umbra formas I had used back then to reach 250% strength are now wasted, since the only ability that specifically requires strength is on the 4th slot which is where Precision Intensify comes to basically fix everything, replacing Blind Rage altogether since Snowglobe can be spammed and scaled off incoming enemy damage. You can have 185% strength on just Avalanche for the strip with Transient Fortitude + Precision Intensify +Overextended, Primed Flow +1 Blue Tauforged will put you at 500 Energy, you then get 60% efficiency from Fleeting Expertise, Overextended + Stretch puts you at 235% range, Icy Avalanche for that Overguard safety net, and you're left with one normal mod slot, one aura mod and one exilus mod of your choosing, which may as well include Natural Talent, Streamline or Augur Reach, whatever aura as long as it's not power donation, then whatever floats your boat between Primed Sure Footed or good ol' Cunning Drift for 250/280% range. Then you're still left with a choice of 4 archon shards which you have absolutely 0 reason not to put in casting speed because Frost literally doesn't need anything else from it. Duration is the dump stat as nothing of value scales off it. Arcane Energize is an easy slap on, but the second one could be literally anything. More strength for more overguard is irrelevant if you intend to scale to level cap, the gating is the same no matter the amount, unlike shields. If anything, you might as well just use Arcane Nullifier to remove any chance of getting hit by a magnetic proc, ensuring you have complete control over your energy, though that's overkill, but so would be using weapon arcanes. Just fill the slot with whatever.

 

Probably not your best call to claim I've not been busy with coldboi when your arguments are so lacking. Definitely not when an easy obvious build is just right there, right in front of your eyes. Like I said :

il y a une heure, Fred_Avant_2019 a dit :

Or you know, build better/smarter.

If you desperately do not want to get any source of casting speed, that's on you. You don't need rocket science to figure out his cast speed is horrible, so why not take it to the next step and actually counter his only weakness? It's no different from if you were going to specifically not run two green shards for extra corro stacks on Saryn out of spite and needed a reason to complain about something. You can take Frost to level cap and it'll never be difficult nor any different from any level below it. You know why? Because the max amount of Overguard is completely irrelevant in the first place, which means going past the strength of fullstriping is entirely useless, hence aforementioned build being far more reliable and usable.

[Shady_Tenno]

On 2024-04-21 at 12:38 AM, Rathalio said:

It's already a very convenient and powerful addition to you warframes. Also, I still didn't say it was weak. I simply said that the value of overguard doesn't matter really matter. Also Dante really have a stupidly easy access to overguard, almost an easier access than with Kullervo and Kullervo is supposed to be "the overguard guy". So yeah with that kind of warframe or Styanax continuously spamming his 4, you'll have you overguard up all the time. Yet it's mostly a because of how easily you can generate it rather than its value for tanking. And with Frost you have a good enough access to refresh often your overguard and benefit from the 0.5sec of gating and the status protection comfortably. Yes, Frost doesn't bring high value, but he already brings the only two things that truly matter with overguard. Talking about overguard as if it was weak and suggesting to make it stronger than it is rn would mostly risk making warframes that don't have access to overguard irrelevant in future content tbh. And that's something no one wishes for.

You still don't get the point of my post. The reason this augment exists, is to provide team support, and right now it falls behind and needs a buff. That's what my post was about. If you want to use the augment just for the 0.5 sec of invulnerability, then go on and do that. No matter how much they buff it it won't affect your playstyle, so why do you even bother arguing about it? Not everyone has to play your way.

And no, buffing frost's overguard from 60 to 120, isn't risking making other warframes irrelevand in the future. What are you talking about. Is Citrine making other frames irrelevant with her 90% damage reduction? Or Ash with his smoke shadow augment and Octavia with her 3? Or Mag pressing her 4 for instant shield gate to the whole team? Should I continue? Only Dante and Styanax can provide access to reliable overguard. That's only 2 frames. Frost's augment, as it is right now, remains irrelevant in any content above level 80.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a une heure, Shady_Tenno a dit :

You still don't get the point of my post. The reason this augment exists, is to provide team support, and right now it falls behind and needs a buff. That's what my post was about. If you want to use the augment just for the 0.5 sec of invulnerability, then go on and do that. No matter how much they buff it it won't affect your playstyle, so why do you even bother arguing about it? Not everyone has to play your way.

And no, buffing frost's overguard from 60 to 120, isn't risking making other warframes irrelevand in the future. What are you talking about. Is Citrine making other frames irrelevant with her 90% damage reduction? Or Ash with his smoke shadow augment and Octavia with her 3? Or Mag pressing her 4 for instant shield gate to the whole team? Should I continue? Only Dante and Styanax can provide access to reliable overguard. That's only 2 frames. Frost's augment, as it is right now, remains irrelevant in any content above level 80.

Funny you mention Citrine making other frames irrelevant with her 90% damage reduction. She does exactly that with Ember's Immolation augment. With a core gameplay feature that doesn't require an augment. The very same way Dante does so with Frost's augment.

Frost's Avalanche is already overloaded as an ability, getting mostly free Overguard from it is just icing on the cake.

Dante's overguard generation is closer in comparison to Equinox's shield generation with Mend.

Styanax's overguard is closer to an attempt to make him less vulnerable while he ults, I can only guess it was made to share the overguard gain, because he already gives the team a buff in Rally Point, enhancing on the support role some more. His ult is there to deal damage first and foremost.

 

Doubling up the value you get per enemy hit isn't going to make Overguard any more relevant in higher end content, one shot to remove a cap of 30k, 40k or even 50k is the same as one shot to remove a single digit amount of Overguard, it's not going to change anything if you don't have access to damage redirection like Nezha's ring you can be given through the Safeguard augment, as Overguard isn't affected by any sort of damage reduction, only redirection.

[Shady_Tenno]

23 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Funny you mention Citrine making other frames irrelevant with her 90% damage reduction. She does exactly that with Ember's Immolation augment. With a core gameplay feature that doesn't require an augment. The very same way Dante does so with Frost's augment.

Frost's Avalanche is already overloaded as an ability, getting mostly free Overguard from it is just icing on the cake.

Dante's overguard generation is closer in comparison to Equinox's shield generation with Mend.

Styanax's overguard is closer to an attempt to make him less vulnerable while he ults, I can only guess it was made to share the overguard gain, because he already gives the team a buff in Rally Point, enhancing on the support role some more. His ult is there to deal damage first and foremost.

 

Doubling up the value you get per enemy hit isn't going to make Overguard any more relevant in higher end content, one shot to remove a cap of 30k, 40k or even 50k is the same as one shot to remove a single digit amount of Overguard, it's not going to change anything if you don't have access to damage redirection like Nezha's ring you can be given through the Safeguard augment, as Overguard isn't affected by any sort of damage reduction, only redirection.

If you think it won't change anything, then why do you care that I'm asking for a buff? Let them buff it anyway then. It's not like it will make it worse. I don't understand why you even bothered commenting. 

Edited April 22 by Shady_Tenno

[Rathalio]

9 minutes ago, Shady_Tenno said:

If you think it won't change anything, then why do you care that I'm asking for a buff? Let them buff them anyway then. It's not like it will make it worse. I don't understand why you even bothered commenting. 

The point is that you seem to view overguard as something that it isn't. We are just trying to show you that if you want to buff it this way, it is definitely not going to change anything. So it would be better to find another approach if there is really a problem in the first place.

Don't be silly either, it's not because something like "let's add base 50hp to every warframe" wouldn't really change anything that it should be implemented. You can invent an infinite amount of little things like that and say "anyways if it won't really have an impact, let's do it". Instead, trying to find where are truly the issues and solve them appropriately if needed is a lot more constructive.

Edited April 22 by Rathalio

[Shady_Tenno]

1 hour ago, Rathalio said:

The point is that you seem to view overguard as something that it isn't. We are just trying to show you that if you want to buff it this way, it is definitely not going to change anything. So it would be better to find another approach if there is really a problem in the first place.

Don't be silly either, it's not because something like "let's add base 50hp to every warframe" wouldn't really change anything that it should be implemented. You can invent an infinite amount of little things like that and say "anyways if it won't really have an impact, let's do it". Instead, trying to find where are truly the issues and solve them appropriately if needed is a lot more constructive.

Still irrelevand to the topic. The augment was changed by DE to have an increased max overguard similar to styanax's augment. But unlike styanax, they didn't change the base value, so you end up getting a very low amount of overguard on frost, compared to styanax. They clearly intended for the augment to work like styanax's, and they said so themselves on the devstream before the change. It doesn't matter if you think that overguard is important or not. This is simply an oversight that needs to be fixed and I'm trying to remind them.

[Mr_Stach]

45 minutes ago, Shady_Tenno said:

Still irrelevand to the topic. The augment was changed by DE to have an increased max overguard similar to styanax's augment. But unlike styanax, they didn't change the base value, so you end up getting a very low amount of overguard on frost, compared to styanax. They clearly intended for the augment to work like styanax's, and they said so themselves on the devstream before the change. It doesn't matter if you think that overguard is important or not. This is simply an oversight that needs to be fixed and I'm trying to remind them.

Big part of that is how Avalance and Final Stand function, Frost can basically get 1 stack of overguard per enemy where Stynax can get several since each javelin can hit and do damage and give overguard. Frost should honestly just get more per enemy since you can't really overlap the cold damage like you can with Styanax 

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 9 heures, Shady_Tenno a dit :

If you think it won't change anything, then why do you care that I'm asking for a buff? Let them buff it anyway then. It's not like it will make it worse. I don't understand why you even bothered commenting. 

I bothered commenting because it doesn't change a thing. If it doesn't change a thing, why would DE even bother updating the augment? It took Dante's release and the over abundance of Overguard for them to update Chroma's Vex Armor to finally be stackable outside of taking damage and you think DE is going to increase the overguard gain per enemy hit on Frost then?

Il y a 7 heures, Shady_Tenno a dit :

Still irrelevand to the topic. The augment was changed by DE to have an increased max overguard similar to styanax's augment. But unlike styanax, they didn't change the base value, so you end up getting a very low amount of overguard on frost, compared to styanax. They clearly intended for the augment to work like styanax's, and they said so themselves on the devstream before the change. It doesn't matter if you think that overguard is important or not. This is simply an oversight that needs to be fixed and I'm trying to remind them.

Except you're comparing apples to oranges because you want Styanax and Frost to perform the same on that front.

Révélation

 

Citation

Overguard Changes: 

• Player Overguard now protects against Arctic Eximus’ slow auras.  
• Overguard granted by Styanax’s Intrepid Stand Augment Mod is now capped at 15k (at 100% Ability Strength), which scales with Ability Strength. 
  • Outside of maintaining the status quo (excluding Rhino’s Iron skin, which requires skillful timing to scale), the Augment allowed for infinite amounts of Overguard to be stacked effortlessly and quickly, which could trivialize challenging content and limit future design space. The survivability and team support element that players have been enjoying on Styanax is still preserved, just at a more practical level to encourage more dynamic play.
• Overguard granted by Frost’s Icy Avalanche Augment Mod now stacks on cast (up to 15k, which scales with Ability Strength) instead of keeping the highest value from the original or recast. 

The cap of Overguard is the same, but nowhere is it mentioned that they're anywhere intended to fill the same role.

"They clearly intended for the augment to work like styanax's, and they said so themselves on the devstream before the change."

They in fact, did not. Not only do you have no source to back it up, but I went on and tried to look for it myself.

Révélation

 

Devstream 172 is the last devstream that took place before the change. The only thing that was told about Overguard's intent and changes was that they wanted it to prevent oneshots in Steel Path. That's all there is to it. You can't expect people to take you seriously. Not when you just make this sort of stuff up. And for what? Getting a buff that's completely irrelevant to any sort of real gameplay situation?

Frost is barely ever going to get hit if he's using his 4 alot because full freeze and cold stacks do alot on the "enemies can't do a thing" front. A fully CC'd enemy can't even hit you in the first place, an enemy that's slowed by 65% is very unlikely to have the sustained DPS to pose a threat, and 65% slow is the bare minimum you can achieve on enemies that possess Overguard of their own. Meanwhile, Styanax is target practice for anything he doesn't obliterate instantly. There's your difference in functionality. The one you want to completely ignore just for the sake of buffing a stat that doesn't alter the status quo.

You find comments from people who don't agree with you to be "irrelevant", but have you considered one second how relevant your thread is to the game's balance?

I care as a Frost main that you're spreading misinformation due to a critical lack of experience, as proved by your initial post.

  

Le 18/04/2024 à 11:47, Shady_Tenno a dit :

Frost's Icy Avalance augment needs some love.

Even a build with 338 strength, assuming you hit 20 enemies every single time (which in actual missions, is not always the case), you still get only 3756 overguard. That means that you have to press your 4, at least 13-14 times to reach the max overguard. This is ridiculous for a frame with such low energy. Maintaining overguard for both you and your team, is hard when steel path enemies, can just look at you and that 3756 overguard is gone. That 60 base overguard needs to be buffed to at least 120 per enemy. It still won't be on the same level at Dante or even Styanax, but will at least be easier to maintain.

338 strength is completely useless for Avalanche, 167% is all you need for it to fully strip armor, which is the only part of it that matters, Cold doesn't have increased damage against any health type, all you're going to get is 5070 Cold damage, which is pretty much useless. Regardless of your strength, you're going to need 250 hits to hit the cap (though for all reasons we've mentionned before, hitting the cap is unnecessary), Frost's base Energy being low by default should tell you enough about modding for higher efficiency, not lower like you did, as 338 strength can't be reached without adding Blind Rage into your build, unless you're using Red shards for strength, which also don't make any sense either.

The only thing that's ridiculous here is complaining about energy issues when you make them worse yourself. With Nourish's energy increase nerf, 338% strength will only just triple your energy income, but you've also made it so your entire kit costs 55% more energy, for basically no real benefit. With your suggestion, you lower the number of enemies to hit from 250 to 125 (which you'll struggle to hit if you're running a build that's only centered around strength btw), taking anywhere between 6 to 12 casts of Avalanche, if your average Avalanche cast hits between 10 to 20 enemies. Using your build, that's anywhere between 930 and 1860 Energy.

A Nourish boosted Energize proc will only grant you about 450, occuring once every 15s, while a Zenurik zone will get you about 225 energy during that downtime, assuming you're running Zenurik, Energy Pulse should make any energy orb you pick up grant you 225 energy if Nourish is up, if they're large ones, smaller ones grant you 112.5 energy (not in one go, Energy Pulse acts as a regen over time). Even with a large energy pick up and zenurik running and Energize insta proccing, you're still energy deficient due for the case where you hit at least 20 enemies in a single cast, and that's assuming you're not hitting your own energy cap to prevent overflowing and wasting the regeneration part, which you most certainly are if your only energy capacity increase is Primed/Archon Flow because Frost's at 425~427 and just Energize grants 450 under a 3x Nourish.

If that doesn't convince you building negative efficiency on Frost to maximize Overguard is shooting yourself in the foot, then you're a lost cause. Game balance isn't centered around people building something wrong and expecting that to work. Not only that, but maintaining overguard for both you and your team isn't even difficult, assuming you run range (which you're not running enough of), 3k of Overguard can block 10 hexadecillion damage and about half a quintillion universe heat deaths if all of it's done within 0.5s of the initial hit that broke it, which is all you should be asking of it in the first place : preventing health loss, exactly like a Rhino's Iron Skin, which, surprise surprise, the augment was based on, long before overguard even made it in the game, as while it didn't take the same calculation (it doesn't take your armor stat into account), it still was (and still is to this day) applied by a buff that nullifiers could (and still can) remove, should the one receiving it enter a nullifier field.

 

Basically, you're ranting about how bad Frost is at generating Overguard, just because Dante and Styanax can generate higher numbers of it faster... while completely overlooking the importance (or rather, lack thereof) of higher numbers of hitpoints that get (mostly) no form of damage attenuation (again, only damage redirection works with Overguard, anything else does not) against enemies from the Steel Path and scaling up. As I've said before, Precision Intensify + Transient Fortitude is still enough strength that if you run Overextended to maximize your range, you still are guaranteed to remove 100% of any target's armor, which is the main appeal of Avalanche outside the obvious CC it was created for. Building for extra range means you also suddenly get a wider AoE, hence you're hitting more targets, which translates into hitting your Overguard cap faster. You also are more likely to include your allies inside your range by modding like this and because you affect more targets on average, you also end up needing to cast less, thus benefiting your energy economy.

Besides, if you're still stubborn about keeping Blind Rage, well ... Blind Rage + Overextended + Transient Fortitude + Precision Intensify + Augur Secrets still let you end up at 308% strength just on his 4 and 218% on his 1, 2 and 3, so it's a 2.3x Nourish you'd get, still enough to hit 497.5 Energy without Wellspring in a single Large Energy orb + Energize, 72.5 energy above Frost Prime's normal energy cap with Primed Flow.

 

In short, you're just making it sound like it's a big thing, but in reality, you're just making everything more complicated for yourself with a bad build and pretending the game's poorly balanced because your perspective is twisted. Build better and you'll see none of your previous claims have any ground, out of logic comparisons won't get you anywhere. Play Frost for what he is, not for what the latest released frame is based around, else god knows what sort of pointless builds we're going to see when a newer cold related frame comes out.

Edited April 22 by Fred_Avant_2019

[Shady_Tenno]

8 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

I bothered commenting because it doesn't change a thing. If it doesn't change a thing, why would DE even bother updating the augment? It took Dante's release and the over abundance of Overguard for them to update Chroma's Vex Armor to finally be stackable outside of taking damage and you think DE is going to increase the overguard gain per enemy hit on Frost then?

Except you're comparing apples to oranges because you want Styanax and Frost to perform the same on that front.

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The cap of Overguard is the same, but nowhere is it mentioned that they're anywhere intended to fill the same role.

"They clearly intended for the augment to work like styanax's, and they said so themselves on the devstream before the change."

They in fact, did not. Not only do you have no source to back it up, but I went on and tried to look for it myself.

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Devstream 172 is the last devstream that took place before the change. The only thing that was told about Overguard's intent and changes was that they wanted it to prevent oneshots in Steel Path. That's all there is to it. You can't expect people to take you seriously. Not when you just make this sort of stuff up. And for what? Getting a buff that's completely irrelevant to any sort of real gameplay situation?

Frost is barely ever going to get hit if he's using his 4 alot because full freeze and cold stacks do alot on the "enemies can't do a thing" front. A fully CC'd enemy can't even hit you in the first place, an enemy that's slowed by 65% is very unlikely to have the sustained DPS to pose a threat, and 65% slow is the bare minimum you can achieve on enemies that possess Overguard of their own. Meanwhile, Styanax is target practice for anything he doesn't obliterate instantly. There's your difference in functionality. The one you want to completely ignore just for the sake of buffing a stat that doesn't alter the status quo.

You find comments from people who don't agree with you to be "irrelevant", but have you considered one second how relevant your thread is to the game's balance?

I care as a Frost main that you're spreading misinformation due to a critical lack of experience, as proved by your initial post.

  

338 strength is completely useless for Avalanche, 167% is all you need for it to fully strip armor, which is the only part of it that matters, Cold doesn't have increased damage against any health type, all you're going to get is 5070 Cold damage, which is pretty much useless. Regardless of your strength, you're going to need 250 hits to hit the cap (though for all reasons we've mentionned before, hitting the cap is unnecessary), Frost's base Energy being low by default should tell you enough about modding for higher efficiency, not lower like you did, as 338 strength can't be reached without adding Blind Rage into your build, unless you're using Red shards for strength, which also don't make any sense either.

The only thing that's ridiculous here is complaining about energy issues when you make them worse yourself. With Nourish's energy increase nerf, 338% strength will only just triple your energy income, but you've also made it so your entire kit costs 55% more energy, for basically no real benefit. With your suggestion, you lower the number of enemies to hit from 250 to 125 (which you'll struggle to hit if you're running a build that's only centered around strength btw), taking anywhere between 6 to 12 casts of Avalanche, if your average Avalanche cast hits between 10 to 20 enemies. Using your build, that's anywhere between 930 and 1860 Energy.

A Nourish boosted Energize proc will only grant you about 450, occuring once every 15s, while a Zenurik zone will get you about 225 energy during that downtime, assuming you're running Zenurik, Energy Pulse should make any energy orb you pick up grant you 225 energy if Nourish is up, if they're large ones, smaller ones grant you 112.5 energy (not in one go, Energy Pulse acts as a regen over time). Even with a large energy pick up and zenurik running and Energize insta proccing, you're still energy deficient due for the case where you hit at least 20 enemies in a single cast, and that's assuming you're not hitting your own energy cap to prevent overflowing and wasting the regeneration part, which you most certainly are if your only energy capacity increase is Primed/Archon Flow because Frost's at 425~427 and just Energize grants 450 under a 3x Nourish.

If that doesn't convince you building negative efficiency on Frost to maximize Overguard is shooting yourself in the foot, then you're a lost cause. Game balance isn't centered around people building something wrong and expecting that to work. Not only that, but maintaining overguard for both you and your team isn't even difficult, assuming you run range (which you're not running enough of), 3k of Overguard can block 10 hexadecillion damage and about half a quintillion universe heat deaths if all of it's done within 0.5s of the initial hit that broke it, which is all you should be asking of it in the first place : preventing health loss, exactly like a Rhino's Iron Skin, which, surprise surprise, the augment was based on, long before overguard even made it in the game, as while it didn't take the same calculation (it doesn't take your armor stat into account), it still was (and still is to this day) applied by a buff that nullifiers could (and still can) remove, should the one receiving it enter a nullifier field.

 

Basically, you're ranting about how bad Frost is at generating Overguard, just because Dante and Styanax can generate higher numbers of it faster... while completely overlooking the importance (or rather, lack thereof) of higher numbers of hitpoints that get (mostly) no form of damage attenuation (again, only damage redirection works with Overguard, anything else does not) against enemies from the Steel Path and scaling up. As I've said before, Precision Intensify + Transient Fortitude is still enough strength that if you run Overextended to maximize your range, you still are guaranteed to remove 100% of any target's armor, which is the main appeal of Avalanche outside the obvious CC it was created for. Building for extra range means you also suddenly get a wider AoE, hence you're hitting more targets, which translates into hitting your Overguard cap faster. You also are more likely to include your allies inside your range by modding like this and because you affect more targets on average, you also end up needing to cast less, thus benefiting your energy economy.

Besides, if you're still stubborn about keeping Blind Rage, well ... Blind Rage + Overextended + Transient Fortitude + Precision Intensify + Augur Secrets still let you end up at 308% strength just on his 4 and 218% on his 1, 2 and 3, so it's a 2.3x Nourish you'd get, still enough to hit 497.5 Energy without Wellspring in a single Large Energy orb + Energize, 72.5 energy above Frost Prime's normal energy cap with Primed Flow.

 

In short, you're just making it sound like it's a big thing, but in reality, you're just making everything more complicated for yourself with a bad build and pretending the game's poorly balanced because your perspective is twisted. Build better and you'll see none of your previous claims have any ground, out of logic comparisons won't get you anywhere. Play Frost for what he is, not for what the latest released frame is based around, else god knows what sort of pointless builds we're going to see when a newer cold related frame comes out.

You people want everyone to play frost the way you play him. Why? I've asked this again and again...And yes, they did change the augment to work likes Styanax. Otherwise why would they bother increase the max overguard? It makes no sense!

Read what my post was about! If you have a certain way of playing Frost, then even if they buff his augment to have the same amount of overguard as Dante or Styanax(that's not what I asked btw), it still WON'T change your playstyle. If anything, it will make it better for everyone else that wants to play frost in a different way than you do. Do you believe that build diversity is bad for the game somehow? It's not like Frost is the most overpowered warframe and this will push him to broken status 😆 Stop trying to tell me how to build him. That's not what the topic is about! 

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 1 heure, Shady_Tenno a dit :

You people want everyone to play frost the way you play him. Why?

I don't. It's not even my Config A build either, not something I default to.

Il y a 1 heure, Shady_Tenno a dit :

And yes, they did change the augment to work likes Styanax. Otherwise why would they bother increase the max overguard? It makes no sense!

Except the way you describe it is in no way how it was intended to work. Styanax's Final Stand augment released in a state where the Overguard he generated was not capped, it's only after they noticed players were reaching millions of it that they changed it. Frost's Icy Avalanche initially didn't even work this way, you only gained Overguard based on whatever cast of Avalanche had the most targets in it, it didn't come with a cap, per se, but it did have one based on enemy density, since Overguard didn't add up onto itself with how the augment worked. Seeing how Frost couldn't generate millions of Overguard, unlike Styanax, people started complaining about it on the forums, DE later decided that Overguard gains would be capped the same way it's capped on Kullervo (although Kullervo's OG is 5k lower in cap), instead of potentially being infinite and changed Icy Avalanche to build up to a cap instead of being a value that's hardcapped based on enemy density. It was kinda weird introducing a mechanic on a frame only to have it completely outdone by Intrepid Stand.

Regardless, the Overguard cap isn't so much here to be a value you must hit within seconds, it's a value that's here to prevent players from going way past that value within seconds (although that's more true for Styanax than it is for Frost, since Frost's hits per cast is reasonable), there's a notable difference.

Il y a 2 heures, Shady_Tenno a dit :

Read what my post was about!

And I have, despite your false claim that I didn't. Otherwise why would I tell you that doubling up the base Overguard gain per target hit on Frost is irrelevant? Enemies against which Overguard has any significant value (level 1 normal to about level 1k SP) are not even able to make a significant dent in your Overguard even if you just stand there as target practice. When you factor in Snowglobe giving you pretty much infinite cover and Avalanche's CC, it's tough for enemies who can't oneshot any amount of Overguard.

Il y a 2 heures, Shady_Tenno a dit :

If you have a certain way of playing Frost, then even if they buff his augment to have the same amount of overguard as Dante or Styanax(that's not what I asked btw), it still WON'T change your playstyle.

Not one person here claimed it would change anyone's playstyle. Why is this the one thing you can't get off of? Like I said, your suggestion lowers the number of hits from 250 to 125 (assuming you do not lose any Overguard between casts). It's only relevant in the cases where you can't hit many targets at once, be it because of modding or enemy density, although that's assuming reaching the cap of Overguard matters, which, as many others have told you already, does not.

Il y a 2 heures, Shady_Tenno a dit :

If anything, it will make it better for everyone else that wants to play frost in a different way than you do.

It won't, as a single digit of Overguard is all that's necessary for it to do its job. Unless you want to play a Frost like you would play a Rhino. Set Ironskin and forget about it until it breaks. Almost original, nearly on the same level as the half million rev mains in this game.

Il y a 2 heures, Shady_Tenno a dit :

It's not like Frost is the most overpowered warframe and this will push him to broken status 😆

Prevents enemies from playing at all, prevents objectives from dying, prevents players from dying, removes the only form of defense enemies have that matters against gunplay. He's not the most overpowered Warframe out there, but he sure as hell is doing wonders in the game's sandbox.

Il y a 2 heures, Shady_Tenno a dit :

Stop trying to tell me how to build him. That's not what the topic is about! 

Your lack of experience spawned this thread, can't blame me for trying to help.