Primary weapon and their overfocus on crit

[kerozen666]

So playing with my builds had me realize that primary weapons are sadly lacking support when it comes to pure status builds. Secondaries have Arcnaes like cascadia flare and empowered, secondary shiver and cucumber encumber, and of course cunjunction vorltage, who are either "neutral" in their benefit or clearly focused on status application. Melee has been pretty ok on that front for a while and it even received new tool with the new arcanes. 

However, in primaries case, all status related items as of late have been leaning toward crits or support, but nothing that specificly target status damage builds. Secondary frostbite and blight directly increase crit damage, while obstruct and exhilirate are purely support related. This is leading to primary weapons focused on status to require a redeeming characteristic, like augments or favorable innate element to become something relevant to the more recent content. Thus, more statur related arcanes or mods that don't necessarly favor crit would be extremely welcomed

[Traumtulpe]

A weapon without crit is, apart from rare exceptions with special mechanics, not something you want either way. It's going to be literally completely useless against anything with a proc cap like Acolytes, why take that handycap?

[Numerounius]

Radiated Reload,

Atomic Fallout,

Primed mods,

There is plenty of support for status-based builds.

Sure the amount of weapons that can successfully utilize it is on the smaller end but it is still very doable with updated content offerings.

[RLanzinger]

Critical Build NEED High Damage => Lot of Primary Critical Oriented

Status build NEED Firerate => Lot of secondary Status Oriented

Seek in Wikia Weapons Comparison : Status or introduced, you'll find you're wrong because we had a lot of high status oriented weapons.

 

PS : In wikia, you need to tweek the css (F12 on Firefox) to see the full slides (height: 100% to width:inherit)

[kerozen666]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

A weapon without crit is, apart from rare exceptions with special mechanics, not something you want either way. It's going to be literally completely useless against anything with a proc cap like Acolytes, why take that handycap?

there would not be a handicap if there was something to help with that. Secondary encumer and cascadia empowered let's you work around that with secondaries. the fact you are even commenting that proves that we need that kind of things for primaries too

[Traumtulpe]

8 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

there would not be a handicap if there was something to help with that. Secondary encumer and cascadia empowered let's you work around that with secondaries. the fact you are even commenting that proves that we need that kind of things for primaries too

No they don't. Your weapon has no crit? You put it away when the Acolyte shows up. It's that simple.

[WindShadow970]

I agree, primaries have little to no status support from arcanes. But then again there are very few primaries that lean hard into the status route especially these days, hell they took one of the OG status utility primaries the Torid and turned it into a crit beam. Primaries like Alternox got thrown in the collective garbage bin because it didn't fit the direction of primary weapon being the main killing tool...generally utility and status primaries are a dying breed of weapons.

37 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Your weapon has no crit? You put it away when the Acolyte shows up. It's that simple.

You shoot at it for 2 seconds, if it's health bar is melting at an acceptable rate you keep shooting. A good number of status focused secondaries achieve this.

[kerozen666]

27 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

No they don't. Your weapon has no crit? You put it away when the Acolyte shows up. It's that simple.

that's a skill issue on your end then, because i can assure you my full status brakk with empowered dissolved that accolyte. A status cap doesn't mean you stop proccing, it just mean you stop stacking the same type. 

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

that's a skill issue on your end then, because i can assure you my full status brakk with empowered dissolved that accolyte. A status cap doesn't mean you stop proccing, it just mean you stop stacking the same type. 

Acolytes have a damage cap. Critical hits exceed the cap. You deal 5x or more damage by critting, period. Stop talking out of your nose.

[kerozen666]

10 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

I agree, primaries have little to no status support from arcanes. But then again there are very few primaries that lean hard into the status route especially these days, hell they took one of the OG status utility primaries the Torid and turned it into a crit beam. Primaries like Alternox got thrown in the collective garbage bin because it didn't fit the direction of primary weapon being the main killing tool...generally utility and status primaries are a dying breed of weapons.

I mean, the reason there is so little it's because it's a loop. there isn't much more status primaries because there is little support, which is why they don't release more status primaries, because there is no support, and so on. Altough, for the support primaries it's just sad, because those are fantastic for the more loadout centered builds they are encouraging us to to there days. but the blame for the l;ack of those is more on the community, because that's on us for not realizing the potential of those. like, to think people belive the priming ball launcher that is the alternox is useless (the fact it's so hard to obtain doesn't help it, but still)

[kerozen666]

16 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Acolytes have a damage cap. Critical hits exceed the cap. You deal 5x or more damage by critting, period. Stop talking out of your nose.

you know you can just say you don't know how to mod your secondaries for status, right? an secondary using secondary empowered doesn't care about that cap, since each proc is a seperate damage instance

[Traumtulpe]

3 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

you know you can just say you don't know how to mod your secondaries for status, right? an secondary using secondary empowered doesn't care about that cap, since each proc is a seperate damage instance

Secondary Empowered is garbage, what kind of funky build are you even using. That thing only works on shotguns using forced procs like Toxic Lash, but then again *anything* works on Saryn with Toxic Lash. A literal MK 1 Braton can get the job done with Saryn.

[WindShadow970]

12 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

I mean, the reason there is so little it's because it's a loop. there isn't much more status primaries because there is little support, which is why they don't release more status primaries, because there is no support, and so on.

Agreed

12 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

Altough, for the support primaries it's just sad, because those are fantastic for the more loadout centered builds they are encouraging us to to there days.

Use the Mutalist Cernos with Word Warden or Gas Proboscis Cernos with Pageflight on Dante, very funny I recommend. Or even use Amalgam Daikyu Target Acquired lifesteal with Dagath and be unchained from your RNG passive (you also make units regret being born as you simply refuse to die but that's not as important). I also had fun messing with Mesa's Ballistic Battery and the Proboscis Cernos, it's far from practical but it's fun to test in the simulacrum. Finding weapon-warframe combos that work for you is a kind of satisfying fun I can't explain well, but it's so good.

21 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

but the blame for the l;ack of those is more on the community, because that's on us for not realizing the potential of those.

I would also point at the direction released content is going in, as long as KPM is the major priority exploration will remain very narrow. The point still stands, more Shivering Contagions less Hunter Munitions (same applies for arcanes).

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Secondary Empowered is garbage, what kind of funky build are you even using.

And don't even *pretend* it's not true; People pay less than 1p for Empowered because everyone knows its garbage (it's purely for dissolving).

[kerozen666]

7 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Secondary Empowered is garbage, what kind of funky build are you even using. That thing only works on shotguns using forced procs like Toxic Lash, but then again *anything* works on Saryn with Toxic Lash. A literal MK 1 Braton can get the job done with Saryn.

this is all i have to say. i couls also link his vid where he just vaporize malice with the akzani using empowered.

[Traumtulpe]

12 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

this is all i have to say

Take his build and replace Empowered with a real Arcane. Wow, you made his build better, it's that simple.

Also replace Stunning Speed and Carnis Stinger with crit mods. Now it's *even better*. Crazy how you can just take crappy builds and make them better by removing the crap and putting in meta instead.

Edited April 19 by Traumtulpe

[kerozen666]

11 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

 

I would also point at the direction released content is going in, as long as KPM is the major priority exploration will remain very narrow. The point still stands, more Shivering Contagions less Hunter Munitions (same applies for arcanes).

it's a loop again, they make stuff the player will appreciate right away because there is very little arsenal mastery in the community because gears are made to be straightforward beacuse... i'm not gonna make the gimmick again XD

but, there has been some change recently, greatly helped by the addition of weapon passives right on the modding screen and weapons that are not as forward, like the gotva prime or even the first incarnon guns being crit averse. now there has also been the melee arcanes that added obvious hints to explore more, archons shards do the same, especally the recent ones. and, while i'm not a full fan of the idea, deep archies with the random loadout makes you thinker around. there is hope and i belive in pablo. i mean, it's under him that we got secondary cucumber and those wacky nightwave augments

[WindShadow970]

28 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Take his build and replace Empowered with a real Arcane.

Like? Secondary Merciless/Deadhead? Arcanes that scale off of Akzani's pitiful base damage? Empowered is the correct call for that weapon build.

[Traumtulpe]

4 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

Like? Secondary Merciless/Deadhead?

Cascadia Flare is rather popular for a reason, and how about you don't use an MR 4 weapon to try and justify an endgame Arcane?

[Traumtulpe]

10 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Cascadia Flare is rather popular for a reason, and how about you don't use an MR 4 weapon to try and justify an endgame Arcane?

For context, the very same vendor who sells Empowered also sells the Laetum, one of the absolute most powerful guns in the game, except it costs vastly less than 21 Empowereds. And you're out there pretending like it's reasonable to forgo the Latum and put 21 Empowereds onto the Akzani. It isn't, it is in fact complete behindbackwards madness, and it definitely doesn't make Empowered good.

Edited April 19 by Traumtulpe

[WindShadow970]

12 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Cascadia Flare is rather popular for a reason,

Convenient to stack, doesn't require kills, associated with a strong status effect. I know, it sucks on the Akzani still because Akzani's base damage is abysmal, an issue Empowered uniquely doesn't suffer with for better and worse.

2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

For context, the very same vendor who sells Empowered also sells the Laetum, one of the absolute most powerful guns in the game, except it costs vastly less than 21 Empowereds. And you're out there pretending like it's reasonable to forgo the Latum and put 21 Empowereds onto the Akzani. It isn't, it is in fact complete behindbackwards madness, and it definitely doesn't make Empowered good.

Veered well off topic there. No one except you is arguing about whether Empowered is good or not and not a soul is arm twisting you to purchase it from Cavalero over whatever else you want, all that is being said is that arcanes like Empowered allow weapons that otherwise have been left to rot get a modern glowup (doesn't make them tip top tier but they'll be at least usable in the current game). There are a lot of primary weapons that would like Empowered but just can't get access because they're primaries.

[Traumtulpe]

Empowered is trash and accordingly sells for less than 1 plat. Those are facts. Whatever you're doing is either coping or strawmanning.

A crappy MR 4 weapon does not make a crappy endgame Arcane good, period.

[kerozen666]

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

Convenient to stack, doesn't require kills, associated with a strong status effect. I know, it sucks on the Akzani still because Akzani's base damage is abysmal, an issue Empowered uniquely doesn't suffer with for better and worse.

Veered well off topic there. No one except you is arguing about whether Empowered is good or not and not a soul is arm twisting you to purchase it from Cavalero over whatever else you want, all that is being said is that arcanes like Empowered allow weapons that otherwise have been left to rot get a modern glowup (doesn't make them tip top tier but they'll be at least usable in the current game). There are a lot of primary weapons that would like Empowered but just can't get access because they're primaries.

don't waste your time, that guy just doesn't understand build fundamentals and likely rely on others to tell him what's good instead of figuring everything out

[Breyos]

I don't think primary weapons necessarily can't be status builds. I just think there are enough secondaries that do it so much more efficiently that most people stick with those.

[Breyos]

3 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

And don't even *pretend* it's not true; People pay less than 1p for Empowered because everyone knows its garbage (it's purely for dissolving).

I'm not sure you understand what you're looking at there. That first entry is a person offering to buy up to 100 arcanes at 20 plat a *piece*. As in 2000 plat for the whole stack of 100. That's why that's listed as a "unit price". I'm not sure that's a legitimate offer, but nobody in your screenshot is valuing the arcane at less than 4 plat.

Edit: I missed that those are for maxed rank arcanes. Still, buy offers aren't a good example of costs for anything. Most of them are people trying to buy in bulk to resell.

Edited April 19 by Breyos