Battery Weapon reload, Kitgun, and Pax Charge

[(MOB)drakefrost]

Despite having ammo advantage, I’d find it harsh for Battery Weapon (especially Kitgun variant) to have long reload time just to reload its ammo by 1. It’ll even harsher for those firing “accidentally” (especially under Auto mode) while the reloaded amount is minuscule (e.g. wait for 3s, reload by 3, and have to wait for another 3s to have its reload started again).

It’s even harsher with Kitgun set as battery weapon, since the recharge rate is not affected by reload delay, while the delay is affected by the magazine size (the bigger the magazine, the longer the delay), making it harsher the bigger the magazine is.

In other case, unlike other modular Arcane enhancement (which provides about linear buff), Pax Charge doesn’t buff much between initial (Pax Charge 0 converts the weapon to Battery) and final level, as it only buff recharge delay (recharge rate is not affected by the amount). Furthermore, due to how it works, it only buffs to 33% faster at final level (delay, not overall full reload), which is diminished even more the more reload buff we have.

Hence, I propose a rework to both Battery weapon reload mechanic and Pax Charge.

• On reload (completed delay), Battery weapon adds 30% ammo Kitgun Battery weapon adds 20% ammo.
• Rework Pax Charge “reload rate” from (12.5% / 25% / 37.5% / 50%) to (0% / 10% / 25% / 50%).
• Further add ammo upon delay completion by (0% / 5% / 10% / 20%), additive to the rate provided above.

An example.

• Non modular weapon with 100 magazine size recharges 30 ammo (30%) upon reload delay completion.
• Kitgun (Pax Charge 0) with 101 magazine size recharges 20 ammo (20% + 0%, rounded down) upon reload delay completion.
• Kitgun (Pax Charge 3) with 101 magazine size recharges 40 ammo (20% + 20%, rounded down) upon reload delay completion.

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, (MOB)drakefrost said:

It’s even harsher with Kitgun set as battery weapon, since the recharge rate is not affected by reload delay, 

Recharge rate of Pax Charge is totally affected by reload speed (Kitgun's Loader) and reload speed mods.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Pax_Charge

1 hour ago, (MOB)drakefrost said:

while the delay is affected by the magazine size (the bigger the magazine, the longer the delay), making it harsher the bigger the magazine is.

Not really no. Bigger magazine only means it will take more time to top it off, but you can still shoot at the same rate, whether the magazine is bigger or smaller if your reload speed supports that. You do not need to have max ammo to shoot.

 

Edited May 6 by Zakkhar

[(MOB)drakefrost]

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

Recharge rate of Pax Charge is totally affected by reload speed (Kitgun's Loader) and reload speed mods.

The page you linked contradicts it. Kitgun’s recharge rate is always 50 ammo/s I believe (there is an exception, but it’s bound to chamber, not loader). What the Pax upgrading do is reducing Recharge delay (delay before recharging starts after the last shot).

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

Bigger magazine only means it will take more time to top it off

As reload time is converted to recharge delay (along with battery weapon conversion), loaders with bigger default magazine will have longer delay before the ammo starts recharging, as they tend to have longer default reload time.

Hence, assuming they’re shooting at the same ammo amount (e.g. Auto / Held against an active target), those with smaller magazine will have more advantage as their reload delay is shorter (despite firing the same amount of ammo each delay)

Edited May 6 by (MOB)drakefrost

[LittleLeoniePrime]

afaik..

• faster fire rate = faster recharge rate
  • it feels a bit weird, but seeing as you empty your mag faster you'll also regain it faster.
  • UPDATE: After further testing and reading the wiki I'll deem this information false.
• faster reload speed = shorter recharge delay
  • this one - to me at least - feels sensical considering if you want it to start reloading faster you'd mod for reload speed#
  • UPDATE: and I'll add to this that this only sometimes applies and is not universally true

Edited May 6 by LittleLeoniePrime

[johnno23]

never really had an issue unless i get trigger happy but then that is my own fault for simply running with a spray n pray attitude on my part. When I run with the pax charge and combine my shooting and fast melee I cannot say I really notice any downsides. Possibly your build for the kitgun is not optimal for what you want to achieve ?

[(MOB)drakefrost]

56 minutes ago, LittleLeoniePrime said:

faster fire rate = faster recharge rate

Will need some confirmation on this, as other sources mentioning that recharge rate cannot be changed (unless you meant sustainable fire rate).

33 minutes ago, johnno23 said:

When I run with the pax charge and combine my shooting and fast melee

With combination, it feels less noticeable. However, what I meant is difference in effectiveness between small and large magazine.
It’s a different story if whole reload speed (recharge delay and percentage-based refill duration) is scaled evenly with the Pax.
(For example, with 50% reload bonus. 0.9s/29 ammo will fully refill at 1.2s as opposed to 1.5s without (25% faster).
However, 3.1s/153 ammo will need 2.65s to recover the same amount of ammo and 5.13s (6.16s without, approx 20% faster)).

My proposal is more about making those with longer delay time get less hurt for longer wait time (although it’s still not fully refilling their ammo, the cons of battery weapon), as the delay is “the time required to get the magazine added by 1”, not “the time required to get the magazine fully refilled”.

[johnno23]

I am sure you are correct as you seem to have done the research. I just never paid attention to be honest past my own use of the pax charge and simply assumed i need to be more conscious of how I use the weapon in question. 

[LittleLeoniePrime]

3 hours ago, (MOB)drakefrost said:

Will need some confirmation on this, as other sources mentioning that recharge rate cannot be changed (unless you meant sustainable fire rate).

I guess I'll add to what @johnno23 has been saying by firstly admitting I was wrong in my OP about recharge rate being affected by fire rate, but secondly adding to it that I've never found the reload times of between 25 and 50 rps to be too slow

Especially considering you do also usually have a second gun and a melee weapon to swap to...

Edited May 6 by LittleLeoniePrime

[NinjaZeku]

TBH, the only instance where I found the entire recharge to be truly TOO slow was with Sporelacer Primaries
(as opposed to Secondaries where this problem is nowhere near that pronounced),
super slow ammo gain coupled with a generally very small magazine just makes them feel ... off.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 6.5.2024 um 08:53 schrieb (MOB)drakefrost:

Despite having ammo advantage, I’d find it harsh for Battery Weapon (especially Kitgun variant) to have long reload time just to reload its ammo by 1. It’ll even harsher for those firing “accidentally” (especially under Auto mode) while the reloaded amount is minuscule (e.g. wait for 3s, reload by 3, and have to wait for another 3s to have its reload started again).

It’s even harsher with Kitgun set as battery weapon, since the recharge rate is not affected by reload delay, while the delay is affected by the magazine size (the bigger the magazine, the longer the delay), making it harsher the bigger the magazine is.

In other case, unlike other modular Arcane enhancement (which provides about linear buff), Pax Charge doesn’t buff much between initial (Pax Charge 0 converts the weapon to Battery) and final level, as it only buff recharge delay (recharge rate is not affected by the amount). Furthermore, due to how it works, it only buffs to 33% faster at final level (delay, not overall full reload), which is diminished even more the more reload buff we have.

Hence, I propose a rework to both Battery weapon reload mechanic and Pax Charge.

• On reload (completed delay), Battery weapon adds 30% ammo Kitgun Battery weapon adds 20% ammo.
• Rework Pax Charge “reload rate” from (12.5% / 25% / 37.5% / 50%) to (0% / 10% / 25% / 50%).
• Further add ammo upon delay completion by (0% / 5% / 10% / 20%), additive to the rate provided above.

An example.

• Non modular weapon with 100 magazine size recharges 30 ammo (30%) upon reload delay completion.
• Kitgun (Pax Charge 0) with 101 magazine size recharges 20 ammo (20% + 0%, rounded down) upon reload delay completion.
• Kitgun (Pax Charge 3) with 101 magazine size recharges 40 ammo (20% + 20%, rounded down) upon reload delay completion.

The goal is to kill old content like battery weapons. Same with very good looking Kuva weapons.

so nothing will probably happen here. Because the devs know full well that these weapons were ruined completely on purpose.