Conclave review

[PublikDomain]

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

"Cheap", "already implemented" etc. are simply assumptions.

It is an assumption - yes - based on the clear and obvious existence of these things already in the game. You can view all of the things I've mentioned ingame already. If I was making assumptions based on nothing you might have a point, but I'm making my assumptions on obvious features anyone can look at today. Nevermind my professional experience as a game developer.

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And because they'll halt PvE development at the same time.

That is simply untrue. We have a decade of examples of DE working on some new whatever while simultaneously working on other things. They've done this for 11 years. The idea that PvE development would be halted to work on PvP a little bit is just as uninformed as the idea that Warframe development will be halted to work on Soulframe. Or that development will be halted to work on Railjack, or Duviri, or any number of other similarly unfounded fears. Different teams work on different things and this is normal. There is not one single, solitary reason why DE would need to halt development on the game's PvE content.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Many of the things that exsist elsewhere would not be as easy as to just "copy/paste", since conclave is a seperate system, so changes would need to be done as it is implemented, meaning the code would need to be looked through and changed to fit conclave specifically even if the foundation for the changes are there.

Yet bots, for example, are found inside game modes derived from Conclave. The Index, Arena, and Dog Days are Conclave with bots. They're literally the Conclave system - same maps, same scoreboard, same mechanics.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And without the standard of easily available stable dedicated servers there is little chance attracting anyone interested in serious PvP.

Why are you still refusing the obvious? Stable dedicated servers are already easily available. Anyone - DE included - can spin up a dedicated server whenever they want on whatever hardware and internet connection they want. These prerequisites you keep insisting on are both unnecessary and easily addressed. They don't need to light money on fire just to tinker with Conclave. That's absurd.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

It is an assumption - yes - based on the clear and obvious existence of these things already in the game. You can view all of the things I've mentioned ingame already. If I was making assumptions based on nothing you might have a point, but I'm making my assumptions on obvious features anyone can look at today. Nevermind my professional experience as a game developer.

It's still part of different systems and we dont know how much can be re-used in a simple transition. So it might not be cheap or simple at all.

21 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

That is simply untrue. We have a decade of examples of DE working on some new whatever while simultaneously working on other things. They've done this for 11 years. The idea that PvE development would be halted to work on PvP a little bit is just as uninformed as the idea that Warframe development will be halted to work on Soulframe. Or that development will be halted to work on Railjack, or Duviri, or any number of other similarly unfounded fears. Different teams work on different things and this is normal. There is not one single, solitary reason why DE would need to halt development on the game's PvE content.

It is still true... It doesnt matter if DE currently works on several things, it would still be one of those several things that gets held back in order for the resources and time to be put on PvP. Since currenly one of those several things is not PvP. And the same thing is in reality true for Railjack and Duviri since those resources and the time could be placed elsewhere. So the people that dont like those two activities are correct in that sense. This really applies to everything in the game when it comes to what we like or not within the playable content.

21 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Yet bots, for example, are found inside game modes derived from Conclave. The Index, Arena, and Dog Days are Conclave with bots. They're literally the Conclave system - same maps, same scoreboard, same mechanics.

That doesnt matter, since it doesnt mean they are interchangable. We dont know how much work needs to go into it. The mechanics between the systems are not the same. So tweaking of the bots would also be required.

21 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Why are you still refusing the obvious? Stable dedicated servers are already easily available. Anyone - DE included - can spin up a dedicated server whenever they want on whatever hardware and internet connection they want. These prerequisites you keep insisting on are both unnecessary and easily addressed. They don't need to light money on fire just to tinker with Conclave. That's absurd.

They arent. You refuse to see how few people each server supports and how many would be needed by running on that system. 8 people per server is practically nothing. Even with 1000 player driven servers you'd only be able to support 8000 players at any given point of the day across the whole world. Which would be far less per actual region.

Hence why DE should have their own servers that can maintain and support several matches at once. Which would also bring stability in the sense that we'd know if the game is up the servers are up and if there are server issues we'd get that info and also be able to report it like it is now in the rest of the game with simple connection issues. We wouldnt be at the mercy or players that might just shut down the server at any time in order to update something on the PC that they are using as the server. We'd also not be prone to power outages or ISPs acting up etc.

As I said earlier, you apparently have no standards.

[PublikDomain]

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So it might not be cheap or simple at all.

It might not, true! But it probably is. There are no obvious reasons why they wouldn't be, and many obvious reasons why they would.

You look outside. The clouds are dark. Sheets of rain can be seen in the distance. Flash! Thunder! Will it rain here? Probably. It might not, true! But boy does it seem likely that it will.

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It doesnt matter if DE currently works on several things, it would still be one of those several things that gets held back in order for the resources and time to be put on PvP.

And that's fine! Not every change or feature needs to be perfectly catered to every single player. DE is adding a motorcycle to 1999 you can shoot from. Whatever handful of engineers, artists, and sound designers are making those work are not currently working on idk, Raids that ~83% of the playerbase says they want returned. Should DE stop working on motorcycles for 1999 and move those resources to something else?

Those resources and that time isn't yours. It is not owed to you. You have zero claim over them. If it is spent on people that aren't you, so what? It happens all the time. They're not even owed to me! None of us have a claim here. If DE spends their resources on something that you or I don't care about: so what?

34 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That doesnt matter, since it doesnt mean they are interchangable. We dont know how much work needs to go into it. The mechanics between the systems are not the same. So tweaking of the bots would also be required.

And tweaking bots already used in a similar environment is going to be a smaller effort than building something entirely from scratch. DE has quite a nice head start on this thing which already exists that they already know how to make and have already successfully deployed in similar spaces.

36 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Hence why DE should have their own servers that can maintain and support several matches at once.

Which they could do whenever they wanted if the Conclave CCU ever became large enough to warrant that kind of expense. Expecting that expense to be paid upfront just in case is silly.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

As I said earlier, you apparently have no standards.

And like yeah, of course. It's Conclave my guy. It doesn't need to be a CS-killer with a bajillion dedicated servers and 1M CCU. Low standards for a low effort low impact system is fine and only makes sense. On the other hand, it seems like your standards are unreasonably and unobtainably high.

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

It might not, true! But it probably is. There are no obvious reasons why they wouldn't be, and many obvious reasons why they would.

You look outside. The clouds are dark. Sheets of rain can be seen in the distance. Flash! Thunder! Will it rain here? Probably. It might not, true! But boy does it seem likely that it will.

Not really the same at all since we actually know how one thing tends to pan out due to personal experience, but we dont know at all what the code looks like for DE or how the two different parts of the game (conclave vs the rest) are interconnected and interchangable.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And that's fine! Not every change or feature needs to be perfectly catered to every single player. DE is adding a motorcycle to 1999 you can shoot from. Whatever handful of engineers, artists, and sound designers are making those work are not currently working on idk, Raids that ~83% of the playerbase says they want returned. Should DE stop working on motorcycles for 1999 and move those resources to something else?

Those resources and that time isn't yours. It is not owed to you. You have zero claim over them. If it is spent on people that aren't you, so what? It happens all the time. They're not even owed to me! None of us have a claim here. If DE spends their resources on something that you or I don't care about: so what?

Of course that is fine and no one has implied it needs to cater to every single player. But you have to consider the actual numbers of how many it would be guaranteed to impact, with PvP practically adding up to near zero. This is also not comparable to the MC, since that is a new system for new core PvE content, which is also ment to see activity from everyone. Also, please stop making up numbers here, like the 83% regarding raids. You are very likely confusing that with people simply wanting multiplayer content and not specifically raids, since the two are not synonymous.

And again, that is fine, but there needs to be some form of numbers to go by in order to say "lets spend resources on these guys". Since the time and resources it takes to make something for a single player is the same as making it for several. With PvP you are looking at what? 0.1-1% or something out of the active playerbase that would be catered to with a rework. If even that when servers to hold a maximum of 400 people at once is enough.

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And tweaking bots already used in a similar environment is going to be a smaller effort than building something entirely from scratch. DE has quite a nice head start on this thing which already exists that they already know how to make and have already successfully deployed in similar spaces.

Still an effort that takes time and resources away from something else.

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Which they could do whenever they wanted if the Conclave CCU ever became large enough to warrant that kind of expense. Expecting that expense to be paid upfront just in case is silly.

No it really isnt silly, since it is quite the standard in order for PvP to succeed and the one thing they havent actually tried yet. It would be a natural first (5th) step to see if there is any chance at all for PvP to gain traction. Since you know what? DE could very well host servers to test the waters and see if it would increase the activity, if it wouldnt, then they could just cancle the hosting. They wouldnt need their own physical servers for this, so it would only be a short term cost that could turn into a long term investment if it is fruitful.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And like yeah, of course. It's Conclave my guy. It doesn't need to be a CS-killer with a bajillion dedicated servers and 1M CCU. Low standards for a low effort low impact system is fine and only makes sense. On the other hand, it seems like your standards are unreasonably and unobtainably high.

Then the game mode is in the spot it should be really. A place to goof around for those few that want to. I'm also not saying it should be a CS-killer or any other killer. It just needs to actually have a playerbase within the total of the game. My standards are also not unreasonable, since it is all about reliable stable connections and easy accessibility for the players. My standards might have been high at some point at the late part or end of the 90's.

[MatNova]

I don't have very strong opinions on all of this one way or another, but I just wanted to provide some clarifications and stats to this discussion.

• https://content.warframe.com/dynamic/dedServerStats.php is a list of the top 50 people who have at some point hosted servers, not necessarily currently hosting. As of now, there's basically three main server providers who are consistently up and maintaining them: Theroxenes, Warframe_PvP_Europe, and myself. A few others may randomly pop up from time to time, but they don't typically stick around long and I don't really know them
• NA region is the most populated easily, with EU being second most likely. Asia possibly third, but I don't know for certain. These are the only three regions that the above servers are in as well, so I don't know about SA, Oceania, or Russia.
• The "400 max players" number that's been thrown around is technically incorrect since it assumes 1 server per host. In reality, you can host up to 6 servers per Warframe installation (possibly more if you do multiple installations and do some weird symlink stuff, but that never worked for me and is too jank to consider legit IMO). Not saying this changes the total result much more (if we assume 50 hosts x 6 servers x 8 players each that's still only 2400, and even then this doesn't account for Lunaro which only has 6 max players instead of 8). In any case, I just wanted to clarify that point
• From 2021 to current day, the three main server hosts I mentioned in my first point have seen literally over half a million (500,000) unique players join our servers. I don't know how that compares to the total playerbase over that time (I know it isn't going to be a monumental chunk), but I think it definitely is a larger number than most people realize or expect. Remember this also doesn't account for the unknown regions (SA, Oceania, Russia), or the matches that may possibly happen outside of servers in general, so the real number is larger.
• Annihilation (aka FFA) is the most populated game mode out of the Conclave ones, and Recruit Conditioning (RC) is the most populated sub-category of it. Across the three main server hosts, FFA RC typically sees an average of about 1500 players a week with 80 - 85% turnover rate, meaning 15 - 20% of the players that play it every week are recurring players, and 80 - 85% of the players are brand new and have never touched it before. This can be interpreted in multiple ways I assume: either there's only a smaller core playerbase that sticks around, or that there's constant interest in one form or another that draws new people into it every week. I think that mostly just boils down to glass half full or empty perspective.
• The servers aren't incredibly resource intensive, but I do believe optimizations would have to be made if we saw larger influxes of players. On a typical day, I'm running 12 servers total: 6 in NA, 4 in EU, and 4 in Asia (the EU and Asia ones being run in separate VMs). They don't use a lot of resources even during highly active hours and are largely unnoticeable, so it's not really a problem. However whenever the load picks up by significant margins, that can certainly change. For example, during the Snowday event, my servers were starting to struggle for the first time ever. I was running 10 in NA, 4 in EU and 4 in Asia (so 18 servers total), on top of other assorted servers that I host for friends and whatnot. During this time, every server was packed, and the CPU (Ryzen 9 5900x) was starting to actually get stuck around 90%+ usage, with RAM usage (64 GB total) sitting around 80%+. Most of that was coming from these servers, and at their peak, I had over 100 players in just my servers at once. I think the larger part of the problem though is that I was getting nearly DDOS'd from all the connections spamming me at once to try and join. The instant a server went up, I saw it getting flooded with connections in the log. So that definitely is something that would need to be addressed should there ever be a constant demand like that event had, though I don't know how much can really be done to mitigate that.
• Depending on the changes you want made to the game mode, it isn't necessarily a huge endeavor. For instance, weapons being included in Conclave or not comes down to literally setting a flag on the weapon itself; that's a known fact. Similarly, performing weapon damage balances specifically for PvP really shouldn't take more than a day or two at worst. As for bots and whatnot, I don't know about that. I would be inclined to agree it probably isn't huge to implement it, but I don't know for sure, so it's purely an assumption.

Most of the stats from the servers that I mention above are visible here as well: https://conclave.gg/

[PublikDomain]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not really the same at all since we actually know how one thing tends to pan out due to personal experience

But I actually know how one thing tends to pan out due to personal experience? Behold: my personal experience, and weep!

Spoiler

I've done my time.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also, please stop making up numbers here, like the 83% regarding raids. You are very likely confusing that with people simply wanting multiplayer content and not specifically raids, since the two are not synonymous.

My guy, that number is from one of DE's official surveys (with 70 thousand people responding) where they asked about bringing back Raids specifically.

Does this question say "would you like more multiplayer content"? No, it asked about about Raids. Just Raids.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Still an effort that takes time and resources away from something else.

Which is fine and normal and not a problem.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No it really isnt silly, since it is quite the standard in order for PvP to succeed and the one thing they havent actually tried yet.

But nothing is stopping them from trying this? (except for how obviously wasteful and unnecessary it is)

[SneakyErvin]

12 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

But I actually know how one thing tends to pan out due to personal experience? Behold: my personal experience, and weep!

But you dont, since you do not sit with the DE code for their different systems in your own hands.

13 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I've done my time.

Then you would also know different engines use different codes in different ways. Did you get your degree in using the Evolution Engine?

15 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

My guy, that number is from one of DE's official surveys (with 70 thousand people responding) where they asked about bringing back Raids specifically.

Does this question say "would you like more multiplayer content"? No, it asked about about Raids. Just Raids.

My bad, forgot about those questions in specific. So, that means they should maybe reconsider trials aswell incase they can figure out what made them such a mess in the first place. However, since the question didnt really have any opposites, or questions about other systems it is quite hard to tell what people would prefer in comparison to something else. Again, as mentioned several times before elsewhere, their survey was set up as an utter dog turd. Also, 6 step questions instead of 5? Would that mean 3+4 should be added up as the middle, or 3 go towards 2 and 4 towards 5? Again, dog turd levels.

20 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Which is fine and normal and not a problem.

No, not when we look at the population it would cater to. I would have no problem with PvP rework requests if the mode actually had a healthy population. But it practically doesnt even have what could be considered a population.

21 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

But nothing is stopping them from trying this? (except for how obviously wasteful and unnecessary it is)

Something likely is since they havent done it. Because they could simply deem it not worth it overall given how unpopular PvP is and has been across their different attempts. I would welcome them to add official servers for a while to actually test the waters regarding the interest for conclave in general as it is. The player hosted servers really do not have a chance to support the mode unless it is so unpopular that supporting 400 people out of millions is enough. And if it is that unpopular there is no reason to rework it. It is likely less popular than that, since I'm fairly sure those servers are most often not filled, or even close to it.

[PublikDomain]

55 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But you dont, since you do not sit with the DE code for their different systems in your own hands.

I don't see why I would need to? There's more than enough information available to make basic assumptions like "DE can reuse code and assets like everyone else".

55 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

However, since the question didnt really have any opposites, or questions about other systems it is quite hard to tell what people would prefer in comparison to something else.

And that comparison is unimportant to anyone but DE. It's not on us to nitpick and micromanage what they work on. A feature or change only affecting a small number of people is irrelevant. For a quick example, DE added the permanent bunny ears a small number of people have been asking for. Would most people have preferred DE spend that time modelling a new Signa or something? Probably. Did that preference in comparison matter? No.

55 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No, not when we look at the population it would cater to. I would have no problem with PvP rework requests if the mode actually had a healthy population. But it practically doesnt even have what could be considered a population.

Why would something with a healthy population need reworks? Aren't improvements like these more for things that don't have a healthy population? So that they can gain a healthy population? Conclave is unpopular, sure, but like MatNova mentions above they've seen over half a million unique players hit their servers since 2021. People regularly bring up Conclave threads like this one, and recently the idea of a Corpus vs Grineer PvP has been very popular as well. There's clearly interest. So if Conclave got some more work done on it - small work that doesn't involve as much in comparison to other things - then it could have a healthy population. This is that actual catch-22 brought up earlier you said you weren't talking about, and the way out is simple: make the experience better. At best it becomes a healthy, popular mode, and at worst someone that isn't you gets to enjoy their favorite thing a little more.

55 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Something likely is since they havent done it. Because they could simply deem it not worth it overall given how unpopular PvP is and has been across their different attempts.

Right, exactly. They haven't done it because it's not worth it. Doing this would be wasteful and unnecessary. While I'm sure you would like to invite DE to light money on fire for nothing, I really don't see why they should be expected to.

Edited May 17 by PublikDomain

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I don't see why I would need to? There's more than enough information available to make basic assumptions like "DE can reuse code and assets like everyone else".

Of course they can lol, no one says otherwise. What is pointed out that we just dont know how easy it would be for them, how much code needs to be previewed etc. All of which takes time. And something you wouldnt know unless you actually see it for yourself.

4 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And that comparison is unimportant to anyone but DE. It's not on us to nitpick and micromanage what they work on. A feature or change only affecting a small number of people is irrelevant. For a quick example, DE added the permanent bunny ears a small number of people have been asking for. Would most people have preferred DE spend that time modelling a new Signa or something? Probably. Did that preference in comparison matter? No.

No it isnt unimportant, since it leaves the question in a vaccuum. Hence why the survey was overall horrible. It reminds me of the officer that gets added to Easy Company in Band of Brother, the dude that is barely there, asking unplanned questions and then just wanders of in the middle of an answer. I also dont see how the ears have anything to do with this, since they are a new thing done simply because they wanted to. They likely also went on data regarding the holiday cosmetic when they decided to make these new ears with the brand new tech.

8 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Why would something with a healthy population need reworks? Aren't improvements like these more for things that don't have a healthy population? So that they can gain a healthy population? Conclave is unpopular, sure, but like MatNova mentions above they've seen over half a million unique players hit their servers since 2021. People regularly bring up Conclave threads like this one, and recently the idea of a Corpus vs Grineer PvP has been very popular as well. There's clearly interest. So if Conclave got some more work done on it - small work that doesn't involve as much in comparison to other things - then it could have a healthy population. This is that actual catch-22 brought up earlier you said you weren't talking about, and the way out is simple: make the experience better. At best it becomes a healthy, popular mode, and at worst someone that isn't you gets to enjoy their favorite thing a little more.

No, popular things can also use improvements since eventually they might get outdated and old. Like survival getting new itterations along with disruption and other modes that are already popular. I'm not sure why you think something is "very popular" since it gets brought up by a random bloke off and on. Do you also claim WF BR is very popular? Since that S#&$ also gets brought up as often as CvsG PvP ever since PUBG and Fortnite popularized BR. Not to forget that the people bringing up CvsG PvP tend to want BF-Frame and not some 4vs4 infantry content only on small maps.

The half a million unique players over those years isnt really alot. Since it comes down to roughly 350 people per day. We also dont really know how much those people play it, or just jump in to check out what conclave is in WF. It could have also been inflated due to the most recent holiday event.

I'm also not sure why you seem to ignore that PvP in WF has already been given several tries in order to make it more popular. If this was just a second try or something I likely wouldnt object, but it would for crying out loud be the 5 attempt in 11 years! That would be nearly a new attempt every 2 years. I guess third times the charm doesnt apply here?

27 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Right, exactly. They haven't done it because it's not worth it. Doing this would be wasteful and unnecessary. While I'm sure you would like to invite DE to light money on fire for nothing, I really don't see why they should be expected to.

Which is my point regarding reworks to PvP aswell. They've already thrown money on the fire for nothing several times over for the mode. Parts of which have also been completely removed from the game and cant even be utilized anymore. And all small potential changes would end up on that fire sine it wouldnt really be enough to change the mode to something better and more "mainstream". Which is why CvsG has been asked for, to move away from the twitchy frame gameplay of conclave.

 

 

[PublikDomain]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Of course they can lol, no one says otherwise.

Great! Then we can drop this weird line of questioning. People can make informed assumptions on the information and observations that are already easily accessible ingame today, as I have done here. I'm not sure why any of us would need to be any more accurate than that for a simple discussion on the internet.

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I also dont see how the ears have anything to do with this, since they are a new thing done simply because they wanted to.

It's just an example. Here's another, people around here commonly whine and moan about challenge-focused content being added, about how it's a "minority" interest and so on. Yet DE has spent time working on this "minority" content anyways, like with Deep Archimedea. Even if this is a small, niche interest that isn't "core Warframe" or "I don't play Warframe to use random gear" or whatever, did that actually matter? No. Did this matter when DE added Railjack? No. Did this matter when DE added Duviri? No. Kahl? No. So why should it matter here? Which is why I say that this nitpicking over resources is so unimportant when A) they regularly get distributed for minority interests and B) aren't yours to distribute anyways.

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No, popular things can also use improvements since eventually they might get outdated and old.

And which needs improvements more, popular things or unpopular things? When DE reworks a frame, do they rework only the most popular ones? No. Game modes? No. Damage types? No. Popular things can use improvements, absolutely! But they're already popular and because of that don't really need it as badly. Hence why DE doesn't often rework popular things. 🤷

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Do you also claim WF BR is very popular? Since that S#&$ also gets brought up as often as CvsG PvP ever since PUBG and Fortnite popularized BR. Not to forget that the people bringing up CvsG PvP tend to want BF-Frame and not some 4vs4 infantry content only on small maps.

I haven't seen Battle Royale modes suggested as often as non-Warframe combat, but there is certainly some interest in it and it'd be neat to explore. That's the cool part about being supportive and open-minded about suggestions, instead of having a little fit every time someone else asks for something you can just say "sure, sounds great!"

22 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which is my point regarding reworks to PvP aswell.

It's a difference of scale. I'm saying "sure, burn a small amount more in these very specific places", but you're suggesting they have to first light a giant inferno that wouldn't even change anything.

[sinamanthediva]

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

*Snip

 

 

You make broad assumptions that everyone hates Conclave because everyone hates PVP which is objectively false and unless you have data to back up your assumptions why are you suddenly the Champion of the Warframe Community that despises Conclave for no reason in particular.  I for one suck at PVP stuff but have no problem with it existing, even in a PVE game like Warframe.  My life would not be shattered if they never made another goofy headband for Warframes ever again because some money got siphoned out to improve Conclave.  Unless you are an accountant that works for DE than you have no qualifications to use money as a valid reason as to why they can't improve upon what they already have to make it better.  Many people who enjoy PVP activities might be more inclined to partake of Conclave if DE took a little bit of time to make it good enough to attract more players.  I see no reason why you are so adamant in having what already is available made even better for all to possibly enjoy?  Oh no, more people are playing Conclave because they like it now because it was improved!  Heck with the money DE made of the Heirloom Shenanigans Bundle I'm sure they can afford even a modest amount to make Conclave more palatable for more players to enjoy.  

 

15 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not really the same at all since we actually know how one thing tends to pan out due to personal experience, but we dont know at all what the code looks like for DE or how the two different parts of the game (conclave vs the rest) are interconnected and interchangable.

 

11 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Then you would also know different engines use different codes in different ways. Did you get your degree in using the Evolution Engine?

I'm sorry but unless you KNOW unequivocally what the Code looks like or have personally used every possible Game Engine created you have no basis to discuss the difficulty or ease of such things since it is pure conjecture on your part.  @PublikDomain has presented basic logic and reasoning behind his arguments to support Conclave improvements in addition to a degree in Game Programming, and all I get from you are broad-based opinions that correlate low numbers of players based upon your interpretation that no one likes Conclave because those players don't like PvP; not because Conclave is in need of some love to make it more palatable to potential players of PvP. 

So what exactly is wrong if DE spent a small amount of time and money to improve what already IS a part of Warframe and make it more viable to attract a larger PvP player-base?   We don't need more headbands and capes to give Warframe players incentives to play different aspects of what already exists;  even if we all don't partake of PvP, it's not a reason to NOT make it more enjoyable for those that do.  For the love of Lotus just let the PvP players have a better overall experience with some basic QoL improvements to Conclave at a bare minimum. Baby steps... who knows with a little effort even Lunaro might become popular!  ( Insert guffaw here )

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

Edited May 18 by sinamanthediva
spelling and grammar corrections

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Great! Then we can drop this weird line of questioning. People can make informed assumptions on the information and observations that are already easily accessible ingame today, as I have done here. I'm not sure why any of us would need to be any more accurate than that for a simple discussion on the internet.

No, since questioning and adding input on what one sees as needed for things to work is still important. You clearly just seem to want people of a different opinion to shut up.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

It's just an example. Here's another, people around here commonly whine and moan about challenge-focused content being added, about how it's a "minority" interest and so on. Yet DE has spent time working on this "minority" content anyways, like with Deep Archimedea. Even if this is a small, niche interest that isn't "core Warframe" or "I don't play Warframe to use random gear" or whatever, did that actually matter? No. Did this matter when DE added Railjack? No. Did this matter when DE added Duviri? No. Kahl? No. So why should it matter here? Which is why I say that this nitpicking over resources is so unimportant when A) they regularly get distributed for minority interests and B) aren't yours to distribute anyways.

Those are poor examples though. We have activity to go by regarding conclave, we dont have numbers on people wanting harder content being a minority. The reason it should matter here is because it has been done before several times and there is data for low participation to go by. All those other things are brand new releases, if they turn successful or not is another story.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And which needs improvements more, popular things or unpopular things? When DE reworks a frame, do they rework only the most popular ones? No. Game modes? No. Damage types? No. Popular things can use improvements, absolutely! But they're already popular and because of that don't really need it as badly. Hence why DE doesn't often rework popular things. 🤷

In the case of WF? Both. And saying they dont rework popular things often is uhm quite strange when we've gotten new additions and twists to already very popular modes i.e defense, survival and disruption. Which are all what would be considered reworks or improvement of current systems according to Pablo's own words on their philosophy. Instead of changing a current mode, they add a "new" one with the changes they wanted to add. Inaros is another example, a popular frame that still needed to get work done to it. Then ontop of that Steel Path got added to aswell while also an already popular activity, this by getting access to fissures and full bounty tables.

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I haven't seen Battle Royale modes suggested as often as non-Warframe combat, but there is certainly some interest in it and it'd be neat to explore. That's the cool part about being supportive and open-minded about suggestions, instead of having a little fit every time someone else asks for something you can just say "sure, sounds great!"

BR with 8 people interesting to explore? Like... do you even... oh my... I'm honestly not sure how to react to that comment. Living under uhm a rock? 

It isnt about having fits, it is about having years of PvP experience across a multitude of games and systems, and seeing when some ideas are just bad and hopeless for the game at hand. While also seeing what makes all those other games successful. Or in the case of WF seeing when the appeal is lukewarm at best through several attempts already. Like I said, if this was a completely new mode and the first attempt I would be all over it. But this would... again... be the... fifth #*!%ing attempt. Not even our PvE modes have gotten that much attention, not even close to it. At some point you simply need to cut your losses.

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

It's a difference of scale. I'm saying "sure, burn a small amount more in these very specific places", but you're suggesting they have to first light a giant inferno that wouldn't even change anything.

No I dont. Servers arent costly, there are many options they could use and they could stagger them to test. Meaning they can start out low and see how the activity pans out, then add more or simply pull the plug on the servers if they see little traffic. You'd think the previous tries at PvP and improvements should be enough "small amounts" already.

 

10 hours ago, sinamanthediva said:

You make broad assumptions that everyone hates Conclave because everyone hates PVP which is objectively false and unless you have data to back up your assumptions why are you suddenly the Champion of the Warframe Community that despises Conclave for no reason in particular.  I for one suck at PVP stuff but have no problem with it existing, even in a PVE game like Warframe.  My life would not be shattered if they never made another goofy headband for Warframes ever again because some money got siphoned out to improve Conclave.  Unless you are an accountant that works for DE than you have no qualifications to use money as a valid reason as to why they can't improve upon what they already have to make it better.  Many people who enjoy PVP activities might be more inclined to partake of Conclave if DE took a little bit of time to make it good enough to attract more players.  I see no reason why you are so adamant in having what already is available made even better for all to possibly enjoy?  Oh no, more people are playing Conclave because they like it now because it was improved!  Heck with the money DE made of the Heirloom Shenanigans Bundle I'm sure they can afford even a modest amount to make Conclave more palatable for more players to enjoy.  

That isnt what I'm saying. I'm saying conclave has extremely low activity. Nowhere have I said people here hate PvP. And it wouldnt be something like a "headband" going missing if they instead do something for conclave, since the two arent interchangable, since it would be those that develop playable content and systems that would work on PvP improvement instead of PvP. The "headband" would just mean the "headband" ended up as a PvP reward instead of a PvE reward if a shift for those artists happen.

And there is the problem "might". How many tries do you think they should spend on PvP? 4 arent enough for you? One would thnk that after those attempts people should realize that the interest isnt very high. So are we then talking about a 5th massive undertaking to change fundamentals and add a completely different mode that "might" attract those not interested in the current? Or should they just waste resources on the minor changes mentioned that would really only impact those current active in the mode and not enough to attract new players at any larger rate (since the mode would still be exactly the same)?

Why couldnt they instead spend the time and resources on improving sabotage, hijack, spy, capture, rescue, defection and other modes? That people will be guaranteed to run since it is part of the core gameplay loop.

10 hours ago, sinamanthediva said:

I'm sorry but unless you KNOW unequivocally what the Code looks like or have personally used every possible Game Engine created you have no basis to discuss the difficulty or ease of such things since it is pure conjecture on your part.  @PublikDomain has presented basic logic and reasoning behind his arguments to support Conclave improvements in addition to a degree in Game Programming, and all I get from you are broad-based opinions that correlate low numbers of players based upon your interpretation that no one likes Conclave because those players don't like PvP; not because Conclave is in need of some love to make it more palatable to potential players of PvP. 

That goes both ways, which is what I pointed out, since neither him nor me know what the code looks like, no matter his degree or not. It is well known that engines work vastly different, we dont know the case of Evolution. You can just glare at Bungie regarding such things, where they constantly complain about their own engine and how difficult it makes development and that the players demand too much etc. And again, you put words in my mouth regarding conclave. 

It is pretty bloody clear that conclave needs improvements, no one has said otherwise. What I'm saying is it worth giving conclave improvements or not? The activity is low, several attempts have already been made, so taking another pass isnt really viable considering the history and data available regarding PvP as a whole in WF throughout the years. Like I said to Publik, if this was a new mode with no history and data I'd support them giving PvP a chance, but it isnt a new mode, it has history and data, it has several attempts of improvements in the trunk etc.

10 hours ago, sinamanthediva said:

So what exactly is wrong if DE spent a small amount of time and money to improve what already IS a part of Warframe and make it more viable to attract a larger PvP player-base?   We don't need more headbands and capes to give Warframe players incentives to play different aspects of what already exists;  even if we all don't partake of PvP, it's not a reason to NOT make it more enjoyable for those that do.  For the love of Lotus just let the PvP players have a better overall experience with some basic QoL improvements to Conclave at a bare minimum. Baby steps... who knows with a little effort even Lunaro might become popular!  ( Insert guffaw here )

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

The wrong part is that they've already tried several times, more times than most PvE modes when you look at it. And again, it wont be about headbands and capes. You talk like the avarage gamer, thinking everyone within a company can do everything. Which isnt how it works. We would see reductions in content releases for PvE, releases that are already released with quite wide gaps as is, not a reduction in cosmetic S#&$.

But clearly you dont think 4 improvement attempts across 11 years is enough. Which makes me wonder why you arent out there advocating improvements to several PvE modes that have gotten no improvements at all over 11 years more or less.

[sinamanthediva]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

*Snip

Like I said one less Heirloom Pack and DE might find a little wiggle room to actually do something meaningful to make it viable for those that want to partake of PvP that isn't broken and banished to the clearance bin at GameStop.  It has been literally years since it's been even looked at let alone enhanced to a level worthy of it being an option in Warframe and we have seen a HUGE influx of players from ALL platforms due to Crossplay.  With such a massive playerbase now I think it's worthy of some attention to allow some newer players, and veterans, to experience PvP in a better state than it is now.  I don't see the problem in improving Warframe options for everyone, even those that enjoy PvP.  I think they should try ONE more time to salvage what they have already created instead of having it languish in the slums of obsolescence.  I don't understand why you have such disdain for what is a part of Warframe like it or not, and refusing to allow it to be made better, or at a minimum more consistent and equitable for all players involved.  I would think it would be more dignified if DE enhanced PVP to a more palatable level of play instead of having it be the constant failure that looms in the background preventing Warframe from rising to the Top of the Quasi-Pool of Developers that can truly provide an exciting and playable game mode for PvP and PvE gamers.  It would be one more plaque on the DE Wall of Fame to proudly show their gaming excellence if they could make PvP a better experience for everyone.  Happy PvP players are more inclined to spend money on a game they actually enjoy playing, it's just makes good business sense to spend a little of the budget to improve upon it.  Heck maybe even offer a Special ONE-TIME ONLY PvP Skin to help fund the improvements and see how much money they can raise before casting it aside like trash to be forgotten and neglected.  I think it's ironic that a player such as me who loathes PvP, mostly cuz I suck, is taking up valuable time that I could be watching the latest season of RuPaul's Drag Race, to offer support for what still is technically part of the Warframe Experience. 

Come on buddy just let the PvP folks have a game mode that could possibly blossom if it was given some TLC.  Is it wrong to want all players to enjoy ALL of what Warframe has to offer?  I think you already know the answer.....

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

I just thought of something... DE is having a Cosplay contest at a CONVENTION for ALL things Warframe aka TennoCon.  If that isn't PvP-ish than why have such a contest pitting player against player in a battle royale of decoupage and hot glue guns?  They are actively promoting PvP-esque activities knowing that there is a market for gamers who enjoy such things.   

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, sinamanthediva said:

Like I said one less Heirloom Pack and DE might find a little wiggle room to actually do something meaningful to make it viable for those that want to partake of PvP that isn't broken and banished to the clearance bin at GameStop.

And like I said, that isnt how it works, since the people making cosmetics wont do anything for conclave aside from... you guessed it, cosmetics. Then if those cosmetics are only obtainable through conclave, well then DE would lose out on money on those cosmetics. DE would need to stop playable content development from the PvE part of the game to make playable content changes to conclave or PvP in general.

20 hours ago, sinamanthediva said:

It has been literally years since it's been even looked at let alone enhanced to a level worthy of it being an option in Warframe and we have seen a HUGE influx of players from ALL platforms due to Crossplay.  With such a massive playerbase now I think it's worthy of some attention to allow some newer players, and veterans, to experience PvP in a better state than it is now.  I don't see the problem in improving Warframe options for everyone, even those that enjoy PvP.  I think they should try ONE more time to salvage what they have already created instead of having it languish in the slums of obsolescence.  I don't understand why you have such disdain for what is a part of Warframe like it or not, and refusing to allow it to be made better, or at a minimum more consistent and equitable for all players involved.  I would think it would be more dignified if DE enhanced PVP to a more palatable level of play instead of having it be the constant failure that looms in the background preventing Warframe from rising to the Top of the Quasi-Pool of Developers that can truly provide an exciting and playable game mode for PvP and PvE gamers.  It would be one more plaque on the DE Wall of Fame to proudly show their gaming excellence if they could make PvP a better experience for everyone.  Happy PvP players are more inclined to spend money on a game they actually enjoy playing, it's just makes good business sense to spend a little of the budget to improve upon it. 

That really doesnt matter, since it still adds up to roughly 1 improvement/rework every 3 years, or 1/2 if they did a 5th pass on it for whatever. While most PvE modes have gone with zero improvements since their release. They are far beyond the point of salvaging the mode since it would very likely need a full blown rework or have a completely new mode added with far more balanced gameplay options. But that would also be a huge undertaking and not sure to succeeed, which might mean it is just another failed 5th attempt.

And no, the dignifying part would be DE accepting that maybe PvP isnt their thing and not the interest of the playerbase either. I really dont think they have any devs that are really in the know-how regarding PvP. And no, dont go and say "duh but they did UT!", since that part is no longer at DE, and havent been for a long time. Part of those were part of Epic when Epic made BR for Fortnite, since even the Epic devs realized they didnt have the know-how to make PvP for their game on their own. And happy PvPers are no more likely to spend than the PvEers that are happy. And if DE starts focusing on PvP, there will be plenty of PvEers that end up not so happy. If this was a new idea for the game there would have been sense in testing the waters, but they have in the end tried several times already with poor success each time, and plenty of troubles to go with it, to the point where one mode changed fundamentally and then got shut down permanently.

21 hours ago, sinamanthediva said:

Heck maybe even offer a Special ONE-TIME ONLY PvP Skin to help fund the improvements and see how much money they can raise before casting it aside like trash to be forgotten and neglected.  I think it's ironic that a player such as me who loathes PvP, mostly cuz I suck, is taking up valuable time that I could be watching the latest season of RuPaul's Drag Race, to offer support for what still is technically part of the Warframe Experience. 

And lol, how exactly would that work? PvP exclusive skin but somehow it would uhm raise money aswell? Not to mention we have uhm 57 frames and not even a universal skin for PvE. Do you mean a skin (or well attachment) sold for cash that can only be used in a specific part of the game, with barely any current community that they can hope will buy it? 

Do you really think people would pay for something so limited when people barely did conclave during tennobaum for the free rewards tied to it?

21 hours ago, sinamanthediva said:

Come on buddy just let the PvP folks have a game mode that could possibly blossom if it was given some TLC.  Is it wrong to want all players to enjoy ALL of what Warframe has to offer?  I think you already know the answer.....

Nope, I'll never agree on it due to how small that part of the community is and how much they've already gotten. They aswell as everyone else also have the whole rest of the game to play, so will benefit from whatever is made for core WF. And if there are some players that only play WF for the PvP they are even fewer to even consider.

 

21 hours ago, sinamanthediva said:

I just thought of something... DE is having a Cosplay contest at a CONVENTION for ALL things Warframe aka TennoCon.  If that isn't PvP-ish than why have such a contest pitting player against player in a battle royale of decoupage and hot glue guns?  They are actively promoting PvP-esque activities knowing that there is a market for gamers who enjoy such things.

I dont think I've read anything so ridiculous in my life.

[sinamanthediva]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont think I've read anything so ridiculous in my life.

Wow I feel sorry for you if that's the most ridiculous thing you've read in your entire life.  I think we'll just have to agree to disagree at this point because you seem focused only on what YOU THINK Warframe should offer it's players for their enjoyment.  You keep saying the same thing which is there isn't a large number of players who play conclave but fail to realize that maybe, just maybe, it might be because Conclave is not functioning in a manner that would attract players to the mode because it has been neglected for too long that no one wants to play a broke-ass game mode that needs a little TLC.  I think it's a bad look for DE to let it languish in purgatory instead of making it a better experience and viable option for those that enjoy PvP.   

I don't see the problem with DE offering other game mode choices for players to enjoy, but it is a problem when they offer something which only creates frustration with players because of the lack of support.  It's really sad that Frame Fighter which is a complete mess and broke, yet it gets updated Frame Fighter Fragments and it's only meant to be a novelty, not an actual game mode like Conclave, which even has unique rewards to entice players to play it.  If DE is going to continue to make it part of the Warframe family then I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to be updated and maintained to a level that would be more attractable to PvP players.  From just skimming the Conclave topic you can see there is interest in PvP but just not in the neglected state that DE has let it fester for too long.   I think it's time for DE to commit or quit  to PvP, but I think it makes better business sense to offer more variety than less. 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

On 2024-05-19 at 9:37 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Nope, I'll never agree on it due to how small that part of the community is and how much they've already gotten. They aswell as everyone else also have the whole rest of the game to play, so will benefit from whatever is made for core WF. And if there are some players that only play WF for the PvP they are even fewer to even consider.

This is such a deranged and entitled thing to say about a side content in a videogame. 

Conclave players did not take your lunch money and shove you into a locker. Conclave players are not taking away whatever space or resources you deluded yourself into feeling ownership towards just so you could resent a group of internet strangers.

You guys seriously need to stop projecting your weird little inferiority complexes onto strangers whose only crime was enjoying a side content you don't like in a videogame with so many other content islands. 

Edited May 20 by BansheeAndZephyrMarried

[sinamanthediva]

6 hours ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

This is such a deranged and entitled thing to say about a side content in a videogame. 

Conclave players did not take your lunch money and shove you into a locker. Conclave players are not taking away whatever space or resources you deluded yourself into feeling ownership towards just so you could resent a group of internet strangers.

You guys seriously need to stop projecting your weird little inferiority complexes onto strangers whose only crime was enjoying a side content you don't like in a videogame with so many other content islands. 

Shout it from a mountain top!  Thanks for keeping it REAL!  As harsh as it may sound, sometimes it's best NOT to sugar coat things and be politically correct.  I appreciate your input, because sometimes people just don't get it, no matter how you try to offer a reasonable alternative viewpoint or perspective. 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-05-19 at 9:49 PM, sinamanthediva said:

Wow I feel sorry for you if that's the most ridiculous thing you've read in your entire life.  I think we'll just have to agree to disagree at this point because you seem focused only on what YOU THINK Warframe should offer it's players for their enjoyment.  You keep saying the same thing which is there isn't a large number of players who play conclave but fail to realize that maybe, just maybe, it might be because Conclave is not functioning in a manner that would attract players to the mode because it has been neglected for too long that no one wants to play a broke-ass game mode that needs a little TLC.  I think it's a bad look for DE to let it languish in purgatory instead of making it a better experience and viable option for those that enjoy PvP.   

I don't see the problem with DE offering other game mode choices for players to enjoy, but it is a problem when they offer something which only creates frustration with players because of the lack of support.  It's really sad that Frame Fighter which is a complete mess and broke, yet it gets updated Frame Fighter Fragments and it's only meant to be a novelty, not an actual game mode like Conclave, which even has unique rewards to entice players to play it.  If DE is going to continue to make it part of the Warframe family then I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to be updated and maintained to a level that would be more attractable to PvP players.  From just skimming the Conclave topic you can see there is interest in PvP but just not in the neglected state that DE has let it fester for too long.   I think it's time for DE to commit or quit  to PvP, but I think it makes better business sense to offer more variety than less. 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

But it is, since it is like calling real life PvP since real life practically works like open world PvP in games. You never know if you are going to get run over walking to the store or run into a nutjob on a real life "ganking" spree. So everyone is into PvP by default. It would also claim that fashions shows are PvP etc. 

The problem is that conclave doesnt need a little TLC, it needs a massive overhaul for it to become popular. Many do not play it simply because they dont enjoy the WF movement in a PvP setting. Some dont play it because it relies too much on hitscan weapons that remove a layer of skill. Others dont play it because they dont like small scaled PvP or tiny arena combat. I'm a person that got severly bored with Overwatch since it was so streamlined and "small", I prefer Battlefield or Alterac Valley type of PvP, or the dangers of the open world on a PvP server.

Frame Fighter is a 1-man spare time project, hence why it gets fragments added because that person decides to do it in their spare time. So if someone at DE really wants to do something for conclave in their spare time that would be on them and I would have nothing against it, since it is their own personal time. And atm I cant see DE dedicated anything to PvP due to the history and data they have. They did afterall end trials since it was having too much upkeep, same deal with solar conflicts that would be too much of an undertaking to fix. If PvP hadnt already been given several attempts at improvements I wouldnt be against it. But when you've tried as many times as they have already it is imo time to just cut the losses and simply leave it there as is while doing minimal work to it i.e just making sure frames and new weapons eventually end up there.

20 hours ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

This is such a deranged and entitled thing to say about a side content in a videogame. 

Conclave players did not take your lunch money and shove you into a locker. Conclave players are not taking away whatever space or resources you deluded yourself into feeling ownership towards just so you could resent a group of internet strangers.

You guys seriously need to stop projecting your weird little inferiority complexes onto strangers whose only crime was enjoying a side content you don't like in a videogame with so many other content islands. 

They would, since there isnt a dedicated PvP team at DE. So resources would need to get moved from one thing over to conclave in order to work on it. It doesnt really matter which teams would get reduced, it would impact PvE releases at that point. And since there is barely any activity in conclave it would be hard to accept the mode getting worked on yet again. If the mode actually had a decent playerbase it would be different, but it doesnt have that.

[sinamanthediva]

39 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Frame Fighter is a 1-man spare time project, hence why it gets fragments added because that person decides to do it in their spare time. So if someone at DE really wants to do something for conclave in their spare time that would be on them and I would have nothing against it, since it is their own personal time.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy in to your hypothetical scenarios to justify your lack of actual knowledge of their accounting budget.  Here's all I know;  DE has enough budget for a Convention Center to be utilized so they can have a Cosplay Contest, so please stop trying to convince me or anyone else that improving on a game mode that exists already is going to cause the Dow Jones to nose-dive and plunge the world into a recession.  There is nothing wrong with making PvP more marketable and playable in Warframe, as clearly you can not tell me there is no market for a Battle Royale game mode considering the popularity of Overwatch, Apex, Fortnight, etc.  Wait for it...  I'm sure you have insider knowledge of all other Developers PvP budgets and will proceed with a prepared excel spreadsheet and PowerPoint presentation complete with "Alternative Facts" that you created. 
I think we are done here but it's been a pleasure chatting with you.  Cheers!

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[SneakyErvin]

9 minutes ago, sinamanthediva said:

I'm sorry, I just don't buy in to your hypothetical scenarios to justify your lack of actual knowledge of their accounting budget.  Here's all I know;  DE has enough budget for a Convention Center to be utilized so they can have a Cosplay Contest, so please stop trying to convince me or anyone else that improving on a game mode that exists already is going to cause the Dow Jones to nose-dive and plunge the world into a recession.  There is nothing wrong with making PvP more marketable and playable in Warframe, as clearly you can not tell me there is no market for a Battle Royale game mode considering the popularity of Overwatch, Apex, Fortnight, etc.  Wait for it...  I'm sure you have insider knowledge of all other Developers PvP budgets and will proceed with a prepared excel spreadsheet and PowerPoint presentation complete with "Alternative Facts" that you created. 
I think we are done here but it's been a pleasure chatting with you.  Cheers!

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

But lol, we know that Frame Fighter is a 1 person project, it has been stated time and time and time again by DE in various stream when talking about Frame Fighter prior to and after it getting released. You also exaggerate what I say. This has nothing to do with DE economics, it has about what spending resources on one thing will do to something else that needs the same team.

Also. Are you now saying they should add BR, while at the same time bringing up Overwatch? I mean, you clearly dont have a general clue about PvP overall to begin with. BR alone in WF would not work, since it is limited to a maximum of 8 players. BR relies on a large amount more than that. It also doesnt have maps to support it. So now you are talking about massive unreasonable undertakings. Do you even conceptually know what BR is? How it works, what makes it work in those games, what would make it not work in WF etc?

Lets sum it up a little. BR relies on a quite an amount of players and quite large maps. It also relies on randomly generated pick up gear aswell as an ever shrinking "safe zone" where the combat takes place. WF current gives us access to frames in PvP, which wouldnt work in BR due to their abilities. They tried ability based BR in Black Desert, it dies quicker than the Dodo since it just didnt work. And that was a game where PvP was the main focus everywhere. The closest we could get to anything in WF would actually be arena shooter Overwatch style PvP, but even that would be hard due to the practically limitless movement in WF when having access to Warframes.

It is easy to say "do it!" when you dont even have a conceptual idea of what differentiates modes and games currently on the market. You said earlier "little TLC" and now you are here presenting full on reworks and overhauls and additions.

Which is it? "little TLC" or completely reworks and additions with new game modes maps and system? Practically, are you looking for "little TLC" or a completely new game?

[sinamanthediva]

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

*Snip

I'm sorry you have made this all about economics and  how it will take essential personnel away from vital Warframe upgrades, blah blah blah.  

Convention Center rented for a costume contest.  - Defense rests your honor.

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

Edited May 21 by sinamanthediva
spellcheck and grammar corrections

[SneakyErvin]

7 minutes ago, sinamanthediva said:

I'm sorry you have made this all about economics and  how it will take essential personnel away from vital Warframe upgrades, blah blah blah.  

Convention Center rented for a costume contest.  - Defense rests your honor.

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

No really I havent. I'm making this about release time for PvE, which is what would be impacted as people from one project is moved to another. Which ties into time and resources.

Convention Center rented to host a convention that provides news for the whole community. Or do you think Tennocon is only a cosplay contest when it is really uhm just a single rather short segment overall?

[sinamanthediva]

25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No really I havent. I'm making this about release time for PvE, which is what would be impacted as people from one project is moved to another. Which ties into time and resources.

Convention Center rented to host a convention that provides news for the whole community. Or do you think Tennocon is only a cosplay contest when it is really uhm just a single rather short segment overall?

They have the time and financial resources for a Costume Party at a Convention Center.  I can't make it any more simplified for you but wait I can:
A)  Do they need to rent a Convention Center to provide "news" for several days to the whole community?
     Isn't that what the DevStream was created for and has to be cheaper than a Convention Center considering it's broadcast from their office workplace.
B)  Will this so called "news" be beneficial to the actual game by providing bug fixes and pertinent upgrades directly to the game code?
     Wait for it...NO! 
Defense rests your honor.

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

 

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, sinamanthediva said:

They have the time and financial resources for a Costume Party at a Convention Center.  I can't make it any more simplified for you but wait I can:
A)  Do they need to rent a Convention Center to provide "news" for several days to the whole community?
     Isn't that what the DevStream was created for and has to be cheaper than a Convention Center considering it's broadcast from their office workplace.
B)  Will this so called "news" be beneficial to the actual game by providing bug fixes and pertinent upgrades directly to the game code?
     Wait for it...NO! 
Defense rests your honor.

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

Suer they have, and that has zero to do with what resources should be spent on in the game. You seem to not get at all how companies work and how different budgets are distrubuted. Not to mention that the resources on that convention center are regained through the sale of tickets etc.

a) Yes they do, since it also serves a marketing purpose for both DE and the games(s).

b) No, but it also comes from a completely different part of the company budget. It is also not a free event for the public.

I mean, atleast get some clues before you start yappin.