Jade's quest and her in-game model after the quest

[Yrkul]

2 hours ago, L3512 said:

Given that the rebellion ended at the end of May and Solitude was executed at the end of November we can say with some accuracy that she was around late 1st trimester, hardly heavily pregnant.

Good find. I was wondering about how far she was during the fighting, but I have a lot of things on my plate already.

It might be worth writing a paper on the problem with historical revisionism/embellishment, using this as a case study. If we keep "adjusting" history to comply with current... sensibilities, we're moving into 1984 territory.

But again, good work following up on the sources.

[Professor_Rotom]

I just want to chip in and also say that I feel deeply upset with putting a pregnant woman in the direct line of fire (even if it just looks or behaves like one), either by having to play her myself or by being in a group who does.

I have no problem with the themes of the quest, nor the fact that Jade is pregnant there. I do think it's an amazing story, and I commend DE for that. I also have no issues with pregnancy in general; it's a normal part of life, and I have no problems with it being depicted in media.

Again, the only problem I have is with putting the image of a pregnant woman in harm's way.

I don't mean this as some sort of "threat", but for the sake of honesty, I haven't played the game since this whole situation started and if things remain like this, I will stop playing the game altogether. There is no reason to play a game that makes me feel distress, especially when this comes from a place of normal, healthy human feeling.

I was afraid about posting this because when I first did it on reddit some time ago I got dogpiled for respectfully stating how I felt. In the end I decided to delete the post, as I was just being mocked and treated with condescension.

In the end, I felt like posting here for feedback's sake.

Have a nice day.

(Also, apologies if this is clunkily written, but English is not my first language and I don't write a lot in it.) 

[WanderingJoe]

Thank you very much for posting Professor. I agree with most of your sentiments. No one should have to feel like they are being shamed into silence about an opinion they have about a videogame.

Edited Wednesday at 08:51 PM by WanderingJoe

[(XBOX)AnnabelleNewell]

On 2024-06-25 at 5:30 PM, Luigispikachu said:

 

bruh. you didn't even read my message. don't pretend you're trying to have a good faith discussion if you aren't even going to read the other side.

I did read your message, reading comprehension goes a long way.

18 hours ago, Yrkul said:

Good! Now we got one out of a claimed multitude.

You might also want to do polish up on your own methodology. Your link was to an obviously biased source, linking to another biased source, linking to another biased source, which finally mentioned its references. Of these, only one was written by someone with journalism/historian training, one was a novel written by a pair of fiction writers, and one is obviously biased judging from the title alone. Again, modern sources written by people with their own baggage/bias/motives.

A wiki exists for Solitude, if anyone wants to go any further with that research. Just be aware, that a lot of... interpretation is going on in later years.

Sweetie there are several.

Do your research. She was just one example out of many out there.

 

Calling it a biased source is pretty wild when I know people who live out there who have confirmed the story and history. But go off because you further proved my point.

Edited Thursday at 12:53 AM by (XBOX)AnnabelleNewell

[WanderingJoe]

I didn't think I'd be needing to take a history class in order to explain why I have an opinion about a videogame....

 

[S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E]

20 minutes ago, WanderingJoe said:

I didn't think I'd be needing to take a history class in order to explain why I have an opinion about a videogame....

 

So much this.

Also, the relevance of these historic figures/ events does not diminish the relevance of the players' opinions.

[SirKeksalot]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)AnnabelleNewell said:

Sweetie there are several.

Do your research. She was just one example out of many out there.

 

Calling it a biased source is pretty wild when I know people who live out there who have confirmed the story and history. But go off because you further proved my point.

what in god's green hell does any of this have to do with warframe

[Yrkul]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)AnnabelleNewell said:

Sweetie there are several.

Do your research. She was just one example out of many out there.

No, sweetie. That's not how it works. You make the claim, you present the evidence.

And as @L3512 dug up, the rebellion ended in May, and Solitude was executed in November, so she was hardly past first trimester, when the fighting stopped. So your one example turned out to not hold up to scrutiny.

3 hours ago, (XBOX)AnnabelleNewell said:

Calling it a biased source is pretty wild when I know people who live out there who have confirmed the story and history.

Special interest magazines are by default biased. And you didn't even have the grace to use the original article as your source. Sure, you can get lucky and have a writer with the necessary integrity and expertise, which is why you check the authors as well. Which I did.

On top of that, it is obvious that you didn't check the research L3512 did, research that does point out discrepancies between the article's/your claim and actual historic sources. On top of that, another biased source points out, that Solitude wasn't canonized until the 1960s. And when you claim, that you know people, who can confirm the story and history, you draw on collective memory, a source very vulnerable to narratives and biases.  So you have a local legend, that has lain dormant for more than one and a half century, then resurrected around the time of the Civil Rights Movement, and you don't see possible biases?

The existence of the person in question was never denied. What is quetioned, is the circumstances/state in which she participated in combat.

3 hours ago, (XBOX)AnnabelleNewell said:

But go off because you further proved my point.

At what point have I proven anything, but your ineptitude in basic research methodology?

--------------------------------------------

And as people seem a bit baffled by the history lessons, it revolves around the claim, that heavily pregnant women have always been running around on the battlefield. This claim is then used to argue, that it is fine for Jade to do so as well, and that we are all just part of the Patriarchy for having a problem with it.

I do hope, however, that this exchange will spark a little more awareness about how we treat the information, we are presented with on the internet. I'm seeing a significant ramp-up of psy-op activity lately, and people need to learn how to navigate this new battlefield. Look for the actual source, and ask "Why is this information/narrative presented to me?".

[ObsidianSage]

I'm going to add a question to this. Are we seriously using Jade's unborn child as a weapon? Is that what Glory is? A murder-fetus? That feels downright evil. 

[Decinomic0n]

2 minutes ago, ObsidianSage said:

I'm going to add a question to this. Are we seriously using Jade's unborn child as a weapon? Is that what Glory is? A murder-fetus? That feels downright evil. 

I don't know, but if you give glory multishot, the main beam comes from center mass, and the other beams come from the floating eye things around her. The main beam does kinda come from that area.

[Yrkul]

On 2024-06-26 at 12:28 AM, (XBOX)AnnabelleNewell said:

I don't see anyone crying about Grendel having a big belly though.

This is such a bad faith argument, or you're struggling with things like behavioural analysis. Very few people argue of the shape itself. The prevalent argument is, that people have an instinctive reaction against the concept of pregnant women being hurt/in imminent danger.

Of course, if this impulse is absent in your case, it is understandable (although a bit worrying) that you don't relate.

[Luigispikachu]

I wish we could all understand both sides properly and not have so many bad faith actors come in and make problematic comments under the guise of "discussing" this problem that's quite prevalent given the top 5 commented threads in the jade feedback is as of right this moment are all "can we have some way to make *OUR* jade not look preggers".

but I suppose if that were the case, then whoever designed Jade would have had that in mind when they designed her but here we are.

[WanderingJoe]

12 minutes ago, Luigispikachu said:

but I suppose if that were the case, then whoever designed Jade would have had that in mind when they designed her but here we are

Supposedly, don't quote me, there was a stream where Steve and rebecca were on together and Steve asked about having a toggle for jade. Reb quickly shushed him, more out of fear of spoiling the surprise than anything.

[Luigispikachu]

1 minute ago, WanderingJoe said:

Supposedly, don't quote me, there was a stream where Steve and rebecca were on together and Steve asked about having a toggle for jade. Reb quickly shushed him, more out of fear of spoiling the surprise than anything.

I was there. Steve was about to say *something* about Jade (which was almost certainly about her preg bump) and becca maximum silenced him. honestly the whole putting this behind a spoiler really doesn't work out. I'm having a hard time trying to get the idea that they hid this behind a spoiler deliberately to mitigate discussion about it out of my head due to this, but it's not really fair to assume this was a active choice and not some poor coincidences dominoing.

it was disheartening to hear rebecca shut him up about it, even if it was just a spoiler thing

[SirKeksalot]

1 hour ago, Luigispikachu said:

I was there. Steve was about to say *something* about Jade (which was almost certainly about her preg bump) and becca maximum silenced him. honestly the whole putting this behind a spoiler really doesn't work out. I'm having a hard time trying to get the idea that they hid this behind a spoiler deliberately to mitigate discussion about it out of my head due to this, but it's not really fair to assume this was a active choice and not some poor coincidences dominoing.

it was disheartening to hear rebecca shut him up about it, even if it was just a spoiler thing

I just figured they wanted to keep it hidden for shock value, honestly. I don't really see how it helps them, or how they'd think it would, to try to keep the community quiet and gentle about it when this is the kinda thing that's very obviously gonna get talked about no matter what.

[WanderingJoe]

I'm gonna be honest, it just seems like a shortcut to just use her quest model rather than add the extra work of having two appearances. An innocent decision that isn't going over as smoothly as anticipated.

[.Krystal.]

While I really love the Jade quest, the Jade big belly design really makes me feel uncomfortable. Regardless it is just a game, the design constantly reminds me of days when my mom was still bearing my little brother. It's really disturbing to see a pregnant woman to jump/roll around, not even mention going to battle field. I really hope DE will create option to let me play Jade without her big belly 😅

Edited Friday at 06:05 PM by .Krystal.

[WanderingJoe]

That's really all most of the people here are asking for. An option. I understand pushing design choices in the pursuit of creativity but.... Well let me put it this way. If the quest had been a movie where we montaged the quest in the first 15 minutes of the film and people had to stick around for 45 more minutes where it's explained jade will be pregnant forever... I think people would have questions about why director decided to do that. Saying the outlook, and I don't want people to blow what I say out of proportion but... permanent pregnancy seems kind of fetishistic to me. I don't think that's what DE was going for but that's how it certainly made me feel. Just another step in normalizing what would otherwise not be given a second thought. And while I'm not saying pregnant women aren't normal, they most certainly are, I just don't think Warframe, an online sci-fi shooter, is where I want to see this on the character I personally play. It's like going to a website that sells stuffed animals and expecting to find news articles. It's just not the space for that kind of thing. One of youtube's content creator's described the experience with jade shadows as "A hangover with pregnancy frame", that people were "bamboozled."

To tone the discussion back down, I think giving the players the option to choose for themselves, wether is with an auxiliary toggle or a deluxe skin later on down the line, would help smooth over our dissatisfaction with an otherwise great update. Loved the quest, loving the event. I'll just be simply putting the advice of the community into effect: I won't be playing as her untill it happens. A lot of people won't, and I think that's a shame.

Edited Saturday at 03:12 PM by WanderingJoe
Spelling and sentence structure.

[TheCursedUltima]

Trouble with the Deluxe skin idea is that it'd mean that there'd be a different design style (hence it being a Deluxe) - meaning those who don't want the bump but want an angelic design would feel left out, and those who like the Deluxe but want the bump would then feel left out; it's likely that neither side will be happy in that scenario.

[SirKeksalot]

3 hours ago, WanderingJoe said:

Saying the outlook, and I don't want people to blow what I say out of proportion but... permanent pregnancy seems kind of fetishistic to me. I don't think that's what DE was going for but that's how it certainly made me feel. Just another step in normalizing what would otherwise not be given a second thought.

Honestly, I don't think this needs to be part of the discussion. Like, don't get me wrong, if you really feel that way then I don't fault you for having an opinion and your concerns do matter, but what someone else thinks about the Warframe doesn't really need to be a problem for another individual. I know you and others dislike Jade for various reasons, and you're obviously welcome to that and I want the game to accommodate it, but that doesn't knock my enjoyment of her, it only makes me wish she were more conceptually accessible to people because I love her and I want other people to be able to have fun with her as well. And, just as you're entitled to dislike her for any reason, so too do you have a right to like her for any reason. I think it's only fair to include sexuality in that because, well, it's part of the human experience unless you're ace.

My best friend thinks Nidus is hot. Idk why, but that gives me hard confirmation that someone sees Nidus sexually and fetishizes something about him. Even if he didn't, I have an internet connection and I can figure out that every frame gets somebody going. What do I care? I haven't even tried him yet. And, while I can't say I'm particularly interested in Warframes myself, I'll readily admit that Hildryn is straight-up my type for her musculature. Someone else may be uncomfortable with the idea that she or Nidus may appeal to somebody's fetish, and again, that's fine to think, but I don't think it really holds up as a criticism because that's on other players for being into a Warframe, not the Warframe itself for having a different design direction.

All I mean is, I don't think it's fair for someone else's opinion to shape your own on the exact same thing. I notice that Jade has upset some people, in some cases setting off trauma, and of course my opinion on the impact Jade has had is shaped by my empathy and desire for people not to be hurt. My opinion on Jade herself has not changed, I still love her to bits. Just as well, I don't care if someone else simps for her. That is their business and not my own, and it will never affect me. If anything, I'm just glad to know someone else likes her design, whatever the reason.

(I'm trying to keep this post SFW and on-topic, as I feel it is relevant to say this now that this concern has been brought up, but I understand if a mod considers this subject a step over the line.)

[WanderingJoe]

My point was that there is a reason why we don't usually have games where people have pregnancy involved, much less one where a character has it as a permanent feature of them. Usually the games that have that kind of theming included are built around them. This is not the case with Warframe. Given that I'm trying to lean the conversation towards having it as an *option*, rather than advocating removal, hardly seems intolerant to me. I do agree with you that this isn't what the discussion needs to be about but at the same time, it needs to be addressed at least once as an additional reason why this design decision isn't meshing well with everyone. This is not an attack on the people who enjoy such things. Its simply that for various reasons, this being one of them for some people, there are those who don't want to have a pregnancy theme be pushed on them if they want to play what was clearly designed to be a major asset to healer/support focused players. 

Edited Saturday at 06:20 PM by WanderingJoe

[SirKeksalot]

Just now, WanderingJoe said:

My point was that there is a reason why we don't usually have games where people have pregnancy involved, much less one where a character has it as a permanent feature of them. Usually the games that have that kind of theming included are built around them. This is not the case with Warframe. Given that I'm trying to lean the conversation towards having it as an *option* hardly seems intolerant to me. I do agree with you that this isn't what the discussion needs to be about but at the same time, it needs to be addressed at least once as an additional reason why this design decision isn't meshing well with everyone. This is not an attack on the people who enjoy such things. Its simply that for various reasons, this being one of them for some people, there are those who don't want to have a pregnancy theme be pushed on them if they want to play what was clearly designed to be a major asset to healer/support focused players. 

That's entirely fair and I guess I misread your initial sentiment. I didn't wanna accuse you of being intolerant, I just felt the need to throw that out there for fear of this discussion going to stuff that won't help anyone's cause. But I have no wish to keep squabbling over it and, yeah, you raise a fair enough point and I'll concede because, like I just said, your reasons for your opinions are necessarily valid, and they're all things to be considered as we decide what we want and DE decides what is best for their game.

[Circle_of_Psi]

On 2024-06-27 at 7:15 AM, Yrkul said:

No, sweetie. That's not how it works. You make the claim, you present the evidence.

Yrkul, if this person is gonna call you "sweetie"

You should porb just read the red flag and block em

[Yrkul]

1 hour ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Yrkul, if this person is gonna call you "sweetie"

You should porb just read the red flag and block em

Nah. It very much depends on context. In this case, it is just a cheap rhetorics strategy.

Besides, if you just block someone you don't agree with, you won't learn anything. And it is not like she's causing me any kind of distress, bumbling around in the discussion and elsewhere on the forum, making a fool of herself.

[Circle_of_Psi]

16 minutes ago, Yrkul said:

Nah. It very much depends on context. In this case, it is just a cheap rhetorics strategy.

Besides, if you just block someone you don't agree with, you won't learn anything. And it is not like she's causing me any kind of distress, bumbling around in the discussion and elsewhere on the forum, making a fool of herself.

Touch'e