For the love of God get rid of Alchemy in the circuit

[insanitybit]

3 hours ago, WokGokner said:

Seems fine to me, I think a single crucible would probably be better, but like 5 minutes to fill both crucibles isn't some insanely long time currently, these 20 minute runs are obviously just bugs. It's just odd seeing all these comments like alchemy being "fundamentally slow" when it's one of the faster endless modes.

Over 5 minutes under ideal conditions is pretty slow. I'll need to play more (I'm maxed for the week, so I'm not playing until Sunday), but it feels very map dependent. The 20 minute runs are gone and of course they were bugs. But waiting for the drops is painful.

Thankfully they removed the pressure gauge, that would have been a real disaster.

Regardless, as I said, this is now "playable" but it's one of the slowest to run, a bit slower than Survival, and could easily be slower - again, the conditions for that 5 minute run were ideal, I had an Inaros that could pull all of the enemies into one spot and a Dante to nuke them, with two others to support, and that was still over 5 minutes.

At this point I think it needs another big boost. One crucible would probably do it, and I'd say you have yourself a decent game mode. Alternatively, a significant bias in the enemy drops - possibly even allowing enemies to drop *two* elements 50% of the time, would be a solid fix.

Edited June 21 by insanitybit

[RyllusPurple]

I was against alchemy coming to the circuit form the very beginning. I knew it would be bad. On top of the status rework trashing every weapon I have, I don;t want to go to the circuit anymore.

[VENDOMINUS]

I did my weekly SP circuit. This time around I had a teammate stick around until the end The run from 0 to Tier 10 took about 2h 40min. My normal weekly run usually takes about 2h 40min, but I usually to the last 20+ stages alone. Based on that I can say that the runs are marginally slower. I got revenant this week, so my team didn't have to worry about dying.

Alchemy itself seemed mostly fine. With a 4 player squad I'd advise for the gains to increase by about 50% , but for a 2 man squad it seem fine in the later rounds.

 

Like always, the biggest time waster and annoyance was Excavation. Despite my teammate playing mag, there was nothing we could do about enemies spawning next to the extractor and oneshotting it instantly. Excavators shot become immune for a few second on dropping, but that didn't stop the enemies from oneshotting it on the first second giving 1 cryo. Another annoying thing is that even when you feed the excavator an energy cell, enemies still oneshot it since it doen't have a shield gate or any way to prevent oneshots. Considering enemies can oneshot it with random pellets from over 100 meters away and sometime shoot it though wall, I think this needs more attention.

[insanitybit]

So far it's been really hit or miss for me, very team dependent. On the ideal team I got ~5 minutes, but on others it's probably been closer to 7 because some people aren't really doing a great job.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb insanitybit:

So far it's been really hit or miss for me, very team dependent. On the ideal team I got ~5 minutes, but on others it's probably been closer to 7 because some people aren't really doing a great job.

similar experience. the problem is that team psychology takes over. so every member hopes that others will do the job. so the super boring collecting and throwing away should be done by someone else... I'm no exception. I don't want to deal with that embarrassing nonsense.

and the information in the patch notes about mission durations similar to Surv is completely wrong. so I can see straight away that the people there live on a different planet and don't test important things at all... 7 minutes is extremely long for a ridiculous mission without a worthy reward. on top of that there are also console hosts. because I meet more than 50% console hosts at the moment... and then this boring mission takes even longer?

and the next time I'm asked whether Warframe respects my time, I'll definitely answer NO!

[latetier]

i thank my lucky stars i got torid already and never need to do that mode ever again. literal torture

[PrimedLaundrySauce]

Hearing about this just makes me glad I never have to run circuit ever again, I already hated how slow survival and excavation were but this just sounds unbearable. This is also just an issue with 4 players scaled alchemy, the amount of enemy spawns in sp stays the same whther its 2 or 4 player but for some reason it takes more canisters till fill the crucible despite there being the same exact amount. Change it to 1 crucible for circuit but also lower the amount of canisters needed to complete it, even in EDA alchemy sucks since if you run 4 player its slower than running solo or 2 player since again, the spawn rates are the same, canister drop rates are the same, but it for some reason requires more to complete in 4 player.

[Varzin13]

I like Alchemy but I agree that it's yet another objective that forces 2 rounds when 1 should be enough.

[Aerikx]

Honestly...

I don't mind Alchemy in the circuit.

The problem is the ampul drops. I know DE doesn't want us breezing through the mission but I would 100% be ok with:

Enemies always drop the required ampules, but ampuls award less of the element.

IE: If say right now it takes 10 ampuls to fill 1 element. Make it take 20.

At least then it's not the current mess of spending 5 sometimes (and this happened to us in Elite Archimedia) 10 freaking minutes of the required ampules not dropping.

Side Note:

On the Elite Archimedia I mentioned....by the time we got an ampul to drop we as a team decided to use it ON THE ENEMIES because we the mission modifier was the: "Enemies must be hit with an ampul of the element to be opened up for damage." 

So by the time a single fire ampul dropped we literally had over 15 invincible enemies (I think was a freaking Necramech) just blasting us apart. For salt on the wound, none of them dropped and ampul too. 🙈🙃 

So, some know me as the guy that raged when DE neutered Corrupted Jackal, turning a solid fight into a laughable punching bag....

I liked Duviri for its Rogue-Lite experience (which is all gone now) but Alchemy in it's current state isn't even challenging. It's just unpleasant and categorically not fun.

[CephalonCarnage]

On 2024-06-21 at 6:19 PM, Vaml77 said:

Lately, DE's latest work hasn't impressed me at all. It's just disappointment after disappointment...

Yes, but Reb is playing a lot of Elden Ring again so she's having fun.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb Aerikx:

I know DE doesn't want us breezing through the mission

How did you come to that conclusion? I haven't read an exact quote of that statement anywhere.

[Aerikx]

57 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

How did you come to that conclusion? I haven't read an exact quote of that statement anywhere.

The design of the overall gameplay loop of the mission type explicitly reveals that the planned intention of the mission is for it to run for a minimum of 8-10 minutes.

(But the mission ends up running nearly double or triple the intended time.)

This is deduced by the following factors:

- Minimum requirement of 2 Crucibles

No matter the difficulty, there are always 2 Crucibles to be filled.

- Amphor drop rate

Amphors do not consistently drop and are gated behind 2 (possibly 3, but I haven't quiet pinned down the 3rd) layers of RNG. 

Layer 1 being enemy kills.

Layer 2 being the element of the dropped ampul.

(I haven't confirmed it but if there is a layer 3, it would basically mean that only certain units actually drop the amphors. Duviri leads credence to this as the Dax are guaranteed to drop the correct Amphor for the Active Crucible. Which means that a similar mechanic might be in place for Entrati Labs Alchemy missions.)

Factor in enemy density and you find that amphors have an low (but not very low) drop rate.

- Elemental Replenishment Rate

Typically the elemental replenishment rate is atrocious. On average it takes about a 8-12 amphors (depending on if the Amphor thrown is a direct hit) to fill one element, with both elements requiring 16-24 total to fill a crucible. This is diluted by the rng of the drop rate, and then comes the wildcat dog if the throw was a direct hit or not as I've seen amphors hit a crucible and replenish different amounts of the element.

The short version of the above is:

DE has intentionally created mechanics to pad out/slow down the mode. Which means, it obviously doesn't want players breezing through the mode. Which is why the mode has become vehemently despised. 

Personally, I feel like the mode should just drop the intended Amphors, make each element take 10 amphors (so 20 per crucible) and call it done.

20 may seem high, but when you factor in enemies (under my concept/suggestion) aren't dropping amphors at random, that 20 builds up lightning fast. 

Which would bring it in line with most non-defense/spy type missions. 

(🙄 At this rate we're due for Lua/Kuva Spy to get added to Duviri Circuit...)

[Venus-Venera]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Aerikx:

The design of the overall gameplay loop of the mission type explicitly reveals that the planned intention of the mission is for it to run for a minimum of 8-10 minutes.

(But the mission ends up running nearly double or triple the intended time.)

This is deduced by the following factors:

- Minimum requirement of 2 Crucibles

No matter the difficulty, there are always 2 Crucibles to be filled.

- Amphor drop rate

Amphors do not consistently drop and are gated behind 2 (possibly 3, but I haven't quiet pinned down the 3rd) layers of RNG. 

Layer 1 being enemy kills.

Layer 2 being the element of the dropped ampul.

(I haven't confirmed it but if there is a layer 3, it would basically mean that only certain units actually drop the amphors. Duviri leads credence to this as the Dax are guaranteed to drop the correct Amphor for the Active Crucible. Which means that a similar mechanic might be in place for Entrati Labs Alchemy missions.)

Factor in enemy density and you find that amphors have an low (but not very low) drop rate.

- Elemental Replenishment Rate

Typically the elemental replenishment rate is atrocious. On average it takes about a 8-12 amphors (depending on if the Amphor thrown is a direct hit) to fill one element, with both elements requiring 16-24 total to fill a crucible. This is diluted by the rng of the drop rate, and then comes the wildcat dog if the throw was a direct hit or not as I've seen amphors hit a crucible and replenish different amounts of the element.

The short version of the above is:

DE has intentionally created mechanics to pad out/slow down the mode. Which means, it obviously doesn't want players breezing through the mode. Which is why the mode has become vehemently despised. 

Personally, I feel like the mode should just drop the intended Amphors, make each element take 10 amphors (so 20 per crucible) and call it done.

20 may seem high, but when you factor in enemies (under my concept/suggestion) aren't dropping amphors at random, that 20 builds up lightning fast. 

Which would bring it in line with most non-defense/spy type missions. 

(🙄 At this rate we're due for Lua/Kuva Spy to get added to Duviri Circuit...)

Very detailed answer. Unfortunately, a quick response is hardly possible because so much information still needs to be digested.
In any case, thank you for your time! 👍

[GSDAkatsuki]

I wouldn't mind it if it were just 1 round. 2 is just too much time spent for 1 mission type.

[40PE]

That's what I said too in my topic. One round might be okay but they really need too speed it up either way. And throwing to the crucible also sucks from a distance, sometimes it just goes through the crucible if I try to target the globe instead of the bottom. I like Alchemy but not in circuit. Especially not on SP. If I see it's coming I just try to leave, unless I got god tier random gear with my dozens of formas and extra mods otherwise it's a hard skip.