Please re-introduce a reason for building for multiple damage types for the one mission

[Merkranire]

I had worries when you guys announced that you were simplifying damage types to per faction, and admittedly there’s still some room for experimenting;

But straight away I’m feeling the effects of such a simplification of the damage type system. I get that you guys wanted to make it more accessible and understandable while trying to entice uninterested players into caring, and I think the “Recommended damage types” was a good idea for the old system to help educate players and make it apparent that they’re worth considering. But right now it feels like you’ve got Faction mods, just with more steps. And those were always the last mods I’d equip if I could help it, opting for the much more interesting damage alternatives.

With the old system I was rewarded for building for different damage types (and their subsequent status procs) across my gear for the one mission and establishing different rolls for my primary, secondary, melee, and abilities because not every enemy within the one mission was weak or strong against the same exact things and I was encouraged if not heavily encouraged to switch between my equipment according to how the fight was playing out, and the fight flowed and shifted so nicely as damage types were also able to provide their status effects even when brought to bear against an enemy that they weren’t so effective against and then would have enemies that they were effective against as well, making me feel like I was being super rewarded with different combat scenarios for my prior build considerations before jumping into a mission.

With the new super simple design, quickly I’ve become discouraged from building for different damage types because there’s no interplay of damage weaknesses and resistances and thus little interplay or build consideration for different damage types across my gear and thus little emerging gameplay and interactions; equipment archetypes are engaging for only so long

Again, I get that you wanted to make the system more understandable, but can you re-introduce some of the on-the-fly decision making and rewarding of build/loadout variation within the one mission? I guess even something like multi-faction missions would be sufficient, where we have to consider what we’re built for and what we’re hitting with it within the one mission since not every enemy will be weak or strong against the same thing.

(not sure about tags but not sure which to use)

Edited June 19 by Merkranire

[Infernobl4de]

2 hours ago, Merkranire said:

But right now it feels like you’ve got Faction mods, just with more steps. And those were always the last mods I’d equip if I could help it, opting for the much more interesting damage alternatives.

This exactly. I wish at least different hit point types had kept their individual vulnerabilities and resistances.

[Cohi333]

It honestly feels so simplified as to not even make sense anymore.

a corpus tech (fleshy), and a corpus robot (machine) now have the exact same health type, strengths, and weaknesses.

factions that used to be a mix of multiple faction types, ie: the orokin and narmer, now have the same strengths and weaknesses regardless of original faction, which was, to me at least, the entirety of what actually made those factions at all interesting.

[Merkranire]

4 hours ago, Cohi333 said:

It honestly feels so simplified as to not even make sense anymore.

a corpus tech (fleshy), and a corpus robot (machine) now have the exact same health type, strengths, and weaknesses.

factions that used to be a mix of multiple faction types, ie: the orokin and narmer, now have the same strengths and weaknesses regardless of original faction, which was, to me at least, the entirety of what actually made those factions at all interesting.

I was smacking some Corpus MOAs with my melee, and once I got through the shields I had a brief moment of “Is this the time to switch to my electric/puncture secondary, considering the remaining health of the MOA and the damage of my non-electric/puncture melee and the resulting TTK difference between chewing through their health with my slow (was using one of the big swords) melee or my more rapid secondary while also considering if I could benefit from the additional range of my secondary or -“ nope, just keep hitting the MOA because I’m already hitting it with the right damage types for its entirety. No need to consider movement or think about what I’m hitting the enemy with, since we build like we want such lack of complexity even before the change  🎉 

Also! I’d forgotten (since it’s just business as usual to build for different enemies) that I loved that it was different to build for the Corrupted due to their mix of enemy types, and that helped separate the Corrupted from the other factions and reminded me that they are indeed pulling from other factions, reinforcing the fact that being corrupted is kind of horrifying

Edited June 19 by Merkranire

[Mr.Holyroller]

There hasnt been a reason to bring multiple types of damage for....... 11 years since damage 2.0 was introduced.

There's never really been a need for "primer weapons" in the first place. its just something people like to do for minmaxing.

The only mixup as of late is bringing something that's good for achemedia necramechs

Edited June 19 by Mr.Holyroller

[Merkranire]

44 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

There hasnt been a reason to bring multiple types of damage for....... 11 years since damage 2.0 was introduced.

There's never really been a need for "primer weapons" in the first place. its just something people like to do for minmaxing.

The only mixup as of late is bringing something that's good for achemedia necramechs

Yes, I know players actively built for the simplest engagement. I don’t think that was a bad thing and I still don’t think it’s a bad thing because those players aren’t interested in the first place.

That doesn’t mean that DE had to strip out the stuff that provided moment-to-moment gameplay for those who took advantage of it, just to try and entice uninterested players into making alternative builds when they don’t want to have to make alternative builds; players who weren’t interested in engaging with the system before are being slightly displaced with this simplification until they settle into the next way to avoid having to change anything about their builds (which can involve any amount of limiting their builds and loadouts to achieve it), so that’s not fixed, and we’ve lost layers of combat flow and build consideration in the meantime

Edited June 19 by Merkranire

[Mr.Holyroller]

1 hour ago, Merkranire said:

Yes, I know players actively built for the simplest engagement. I don’t think that was a bad thing and I still don’t think it’s a bad thing because those players aren’t interested in the first place.

That doesn’t mean that DE had to strip out the stuff that provided moment-to-moment gameplay for those who took advantage of it, just to try and entice uninterested players into making alternative builds when they don’t want to have to make alternative builds; players who weren’t interested in engaging with the system before are being slightly displaced with this simplification until they settle into the next way to avoid having to change anything about their builds (which can involve any amount of limiting their builds and loadouts to achieve it), so that’s not fixed, and we’ve lost layers of combat flow and build consideration in the meantime

I don't see how we've lost anything. 

I've never done so little damage that i've ever felt that i needed a primer. its always been fluff. it isnt less fluff today than it was a week ago.

Now new players can easily see what damage type works without having to go the wiki and look at a spreadsheet of information

Edited June 20 by Mr.Holyroller

[Merkranire]

12 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

I don't see how we've lost anything. 

I've never done so little damage that i've ever felt that i needed a primer. its always been fluff. it isnt less fluff today than it was a week ago.

Now new players can easily see what damage type works without having to go the wiki and look at a spreadsheet of information

If someone’s just been overpowering the system, it stands to reason they’re not going to see what’s been lost. I don’t care and am not completely impressed with how you just bull-in-a-chinashop your way through a mission, I don’t want to force you out of your comfort zone when you’re clearly not interested, but then don’t turn around and tell me “I dOn’T FeEl aNyThInG dIfFeReNt”, yeah?

And exposing and educating the newbies about damage types is a good thing, yeah! And it could have been done using the old system, where even if some minor adjustments and simplifications were necessary, sure, just as long as it doesn’t dumb down the systems to the point that it’s one step removed from what your experience has been and will continue to be

[Mr.Holyroller]

5 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

If someone’s just been overpowering the system, it stands to reason they’re not going to see what’s been lost. I don’t care and am not completely impressed with how you just bull-in-a-chinashop your way through a mission, I don’t want to force you out of your comfort zone when you’re clearly not interested, but then don’t turn around and tell me “I dOn’T FeEl aNyThInG dIfFeReNt”, yeah?

And exposing and educating the newbies about damage types is a good thing, yeah! And it could have been done using the old system, where even if some minor adjustments and simplifications were necessary, sure, just as long as it doesn’t dumb down the systems to the point that it’s one step removed from what your experience has been and will continue to be

I don't think the old system was good either. Everyone still runs viral slash for nearly everything. Elements have never been something worth attaching your identity as a player to. 
People just find the best combination and use that exclusively unless they get bored and want to be quirky.

I really dont understand how people can complain about this, but didnt complain about the massive changes to the game when galvanized mods and primary/secondary arcanes were added.

Edited June 20 by Mr.Holyroller

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

I don't think the old system was good either. Everyone still runs viral slash for nearly everything. Elements have never been something worth attaching your identity as a player to. 
People just find the best combination and use that exclusively unless they get bored and want to be quirky

I kno- Wow, really? People were specifically crunching the numbers and doing the math and looking at the guides that tell them what to use and how to play and how to think with the intent of not having to think about much of anything, sacrificing gameplay, build, and equipment variety to overpower a system that pervaded every aspect of a fight?

Do go on. We had a system that players overpowered because they were completely uninterested and hated having to deal with it that rewarded players who didn’t, and now we’ve got a system that players will still overpower because they’re uninterested and… sucks for those who don’t.

Nothing changes for you because you weren’t trying to do anything interesting

[Xylena_Lazarow]

You no longer need to account for Armor. Toxin now annihilates everything, Heat annihilates everything (including the Kuva Grineer that are supposed to resist it), Viral still annihilates everything that's not completely immune to the proc. It's easier than ever to make one build to rule them all.

[Merkranire]

14 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

You no longer need to account for Armor. Toxin now annihilates everything, Heat annihilates everything (including the Kuva Grineer that are supposed to resist it), Viral still annihilates everything that's not completely immune to the proc. It's easier than ever to make one build to rule them all.

😐 Wow.

Edited June 20 by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

I really dont understand how people can complain about this, but didnt complain about the massive changes to the game when galvanized mods and primary/secondary arcanes were added.

You may need to clarify what you’re referring to here

[Rich_Rulez]

I really am curious as to what half of these ppl are playing? Are you playing steel path? Or level 40 enemies? Where you say you can build for one thing and just blow past/content/enemies. Are you using the Warframe meta weapons starter kit?

Edited June 20 by Rich_Rulez

[Joylesstuna]

4 hours ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

You no longer need to account for Armor. Toxin now annihilates everything, Heat annihilates everything (including the Kuva Grineer that are supposed to resist it), Viral still annihilates everything that's not completely immune to the proc. It's easier than ever to make one build to rule them all.

This is exactly the conclusion I'm coming to now. Even blast destroys everything now.

[Gaxxian]

hace 5 horas, Xylena_Lazarow dijo:

You no longer need to account for Armor. Toxin now annihilates everything, Heat annihilates everything (including the Kuva Grineer that are supposed to resist it), Viral still annihilates everything that's not completely immune to the proc. It's easier than ever to make one build to rule them all.

This.

[quxier]

12 hours ago, Merkranire said:

13 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

I don't think the old system was good either. Everyone still runs viral slash for nearly everything. Elements have never been something worth attaching your identity as a player to. 
People just find the best combination and use that exclusively unless they get bored and want to be quirky

I kno- Wow, really? People were specifically crunching the numbers and doing the math and looking at the guides that tell them what to use and how to play and how to think with the intent of not having to think about much of anything, sacrificing gameplay, build, and equipment variety to overpower a system that pervaded every aspect of a fight?

Some people probably crunch those numbers because they like math & stuff. And other used this.

I've used that knowledge because it was much harder to test stuff on my old pc. It was just so slow. And simulacrum still is so slow to enter (mutliple windows, loading screen etc). On my old pc I was just reading wiki & stuff. If something hasn't worked I would just check google & move on. At least for damage types. I've not find it fun to list multiple enemies, their damage resistances etc and look for different combination. It's just too much work for some of us. Even worse that this work has been done already. Not to mention changing different gear everytime I move to different mission is not something I want to do. It's too cumbersome. If I change 1 weapon I don't want my whole stuff stop working.

Quote

Do go on. We had a system that players overpowered because they were completely uninterested and hated having to deal with it that rewarded players who didn’t, and now we’ve got a system that players will still overpower because they’re uninterested and… sucks for those who don’t.

Nothing changes for you because you weren’t trying to do anything interesting

What you find interesting other may find boring. This kind of job is what computers should do, imho. Put letter X into box X. Put letter Y into box Y. That exactly you were doing.

Just because someone want something removed/changed doesn't mean they want it owerpoered. Don't mix it.

[Merkranire]

8 hours ago, quxier said:

Some people probably crunch those numbers because they like math & stuff. And other used this.

I've used that knowledge because it was much harder to test stuff on my old pc. It was just so slow. And simulacrum still is so slow to enter (mutliple windows, loading screen etc). On my old pc I was just reading wiki & stuff. If something hasn't worked I would just check google & move on. At least for damage types. I've not find it fun to list multiple enemies, their damage resistances etc and look for different combination. It's just too much work for some of us. Even worse that this work has been done already. Not to mention changing different gear everytime I move to different mission is not something I want to do. It's too cumbersome. If I change 1 weapon I don't want my whole stuff stop working.

And your point is…? Because it doesn’t seem to run counter to what I said.

In fact, I know that it can be enjoyable to crunch the numbers, I’ve done it myself as part of the way I’d experience and play with more of the game instead of locking myself into one way to approach this sandbox. And there were more alternative ways to play and experiment with the game when I wasn’t behaving like the number-crunching meta-chasers, and those alternative approaches were extremely rewarding as well.

Y’know, until you guys got hold of the steering wheel and took those alternative options away, leaving me with… what? Do you even know what was lost, while you weigh in on how nothing of value was lost?

8 hours ago, quxier said:

What you find interesting other may find boring. This kind of job is what computers should do, imho. Put letter X into box X. Put letter Y into box Y. That exactly you were doing.

Just because someone want something removed/changed doesn't mean they want it owerpoered. Don't mix it.

What a stupidly simple take. Don’t do that, I assume you know better than to not know about something and, because you didn’t know it, to not then act like it was as basic and pointless as you thought it was.

And why wouldn’t I conflate removing with overpowering? Is that not what the result of overpowering is, removal of the system for the player? Because correct me if I’m wronng, but you sure weren’t engaging with it despite what it brought to the table in terms of moment-to-moment gameplay and build consideration, and the means you weren’t engaging with it was to shoehorn yourself into a comparitively few builds and loadouts that would overpower it

edit: The icing on the cake is that practically nothing will change for you; you may be slightly displaced like a bird that has to flutter a little to readjust themselves after their perch shifts (if you’re impacted at all), but then you’ll settle into your new favourites and not change anything, while the game gets that bit more (in this case heavily more) dumbed down

Edited June 20 by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

I’ve had zero problems with players having the option to overpower the systems, hell, I’ve defended the ability to do so because I know it can be fun to not have to think at times (just don’t jump into a multiplayer match with me or talk about some warped sense of balance or we’re going to have problems)

But that was with the knowledge that I didn’t have to play like them where choosing the particle colour of my blasts is the hardest decision I have to make. I could dip into it when I felt like it, but it wasn’t the only option, and it was great* to have alternatives because “Number big hurr durr” and cookie-clicker gameplay can only be entertaining for so long

*hell, it was fantastic, a humongous reason I loved this game, something other games didn’t let me do was to switch back and forth and get endlessly rewarded with things I could use for both overpowering and having to fight, all at my own discretion and with varying amounts of complexity ranging from “Per-enemy builds” to “Faction-based” to “One build to rule them all” according to what I felt like

Edited June 21 by Merkranire

[quxier]

36 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

8 hours ago, quxier said:

What you find interesting other may find boring. This kind of job is what computers should do, imho. Put letter X into box X. Put letter Y into box Y. That exactly you were doing.

Just because someone want something removed/changed doesn't mean they want it owerpoered. Don't mix it.

What a stupidly simple take. Don’t do that, I assume you know better than to not know about something and, because you didn’t know it, to not then act like it was as basic and pointless as you thought it was.

You mean it's stupid to find something boring while other find it interesting and vice versa?

37 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

And why wouldn’t I conflate removing with overpowering? Is that not what the result of overpowering is, removal of the system for the player? Because correct me if I’m wronng, but you sure weren’t engaging with it despite what it brought to the table in terms of moment-to-moment gameplay and build consideration, and the means you weren’t engaging with it was to shoehorn yourself into a comparitively few builds and loadouts that would overpower it

Removing part of the system doesn't mean that you will overpower it. It doesn't have to. And you know what? They kind of did with armor stripping. They buffed armor stripping while buffing enemy (griner afair) hp. Like removing free movement from melee weren't overpowering it.

53 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

edit: The icing on the cake is that practically nothing will change for you; you may be slightly displaced like a bird that has to flutter a little to readjust themselves after their perch shifts (if you’re impacted at all), but then you’ll settle into your new favourites and not change anything, while the game gets that bit more (in this case heavily more) dumbed down

Removing overly complex system makes game easier to understand and change in the future. Like changing melee system from arbitrary key combination to predefined key combination (standing, forward, block, block+moving) allowed game developers to develop concise set of movement. Set of movements that are tied to certain action. Like you don't think about moving every muscle to do simple punch (old system). You just do just do "forward punch" (move your hand forward).

IMHO removing this old system is good for game. It "fits" it. Not sure about original game but nowadays you games doesn't over complicate stuff. It has some "challenges" but solutions are mostly in the form of bigger... gear.

To be honest I've been thinking about removing all those damage vulnerabilities (e.g. corrosive: 1.5x Grineer) & status damage increase (3.25x at 10 stack viral) and make it change how we damage (e.g. 100% to 1 enemy VS 25% to 4; just very basic idea). Same for melees, zaws and and some other stuff. Game is just too bloated over years of adding stuff.

My builds won't be affected too much because of this change. However my builds changes for some time because of few things they added. I'm sometimes using magnetic with Melee vortex. I'm thinking about magnetic arcane that jams weapons (I don't have full arcane). And some others.

45 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

(just don’t jump into a multiplayer match with me or we’re going to have problems)

*Hides Dante's Og from you*

[Merkranire]

9 minutes ago, quxier said:

You mean it's stupid to find something boring while other find it interesting and vice versa?

Your simplified take of Sorting is what’s stupid, because it had an impact on gameplay that you knew nothing about while you try and paint it like it was as basic as you thought it was

 

9 minutes ago, quxier said:

Removing overly complex system makes game easier to understand and change in the future. Like changing melee system from arbitrary key combination to predefined key combination (standing, forward, block, block+moving) allowed game developers to develop concise set of movement. Set of movements that are tied to certain action. Like you don't think about moving every muscle to do simple punch (old system). You just do just do "forward punch" (move your hand forward).

IMHO removing this old system is good for game. It "fits" it. Not sure about original game but nowadays you games doesn't over complicate stuff. It has some "challenges" but solutions are mostly in the form of bigger... gear.

To be honest I've been thinking about removing all those damage vulnerabilities (e.g. corrosive: 1.5x Grineer) & status damage increase (3.25x at 10 stack viral) and make it change how we damage (e.g. 100% to 1 enemy VS 25% to 4; just very basic idea). Same for melees, zaws and and some other stuff. Game is just too bloated over years of adding stuff.

My builds won't be affected too much because of this change. However my builds changes for some time because of few things they added. I'm sometimes using magnetic with Melee vortex. I'm thinking about magnetic arcane that jams weapons (I don't have full arcane). And some others.

*Hides Dante's Og from you*

Then they need to reintroduce the complexity now that they’ve got a simple baseline to work from! You’re going to hate it and still ignore it, but right now the game is sorely lacking in gameplay options that entice and reward alternative building for the one mission while creating emerging gameplay scenarios according to how someone’s built and what they’re fighting.

If they bring it back to the way we could be enticed to interweave our builds and equipment across our loadout for the one mission, like we used to be, in a way that even you could understand, even better! You won’t engage with it because it’s too much effort to make builds in a build-crafting game, but at least you’d lose the leg you’re standing on

Edited June 21 by Merkranire

[quxier]

8 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

16 minutes ago, quxier said:

You mean it's stupid to find something boring while other find it interesting and vice versa?

Your simplified take of Sorting is what’s stupid, because it had an impact on gameplay that you knew nothing about while you try and paint it like it was as basic as you thought it was

My post was about "interesting aspect" and "how removing something doesn't mean that it will be automatically overpowered". I simplified "sorting" because it's simple. You put toy X into box X. You just have many boxes & toys.

20 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Then they need to reintroduce the complexity now that they’ve got a simple baseline to work from! You’re going to hate it and still ignore it, but right now the game is sorely lacking in gameplay options that entice and reward alternative building for the one mission while creating emerging gameplay scenarios according to how someone’s built and what they’re fighting.

They sorta do with angels where normal enemies I took with AoE and angels with single target.

 

22 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

If they bring it back to the way we could be enticed to interweave our builds and equipment across our loadout for the one mission in a way that even you could understand, even better! You won’t engage with it because it’s too much effort to make builds in a build-crafting game, but at least you’d lose the leg you’re standing on

I guess they could do it with different kind of units However rather simple damage type combination you would use game mechanics. Like tons of melee units rush to you so you need to AoE. After you do with it Big guys come that you need something stronger. Sadly I don't see that coming with whole "more = better" mentality (SP).

 

[Merkranire]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

My post was about "interesting aspect" and "how removing something doesn't mean that it will be automatically overpowered". I simplified "sorting" because it's simple. You put toy X into box X. You just have many boxes & toys.

I think I got lost somewhere; you overpowered the system to remove any need to consider it. All this stuff existed and players weren’t interested, going so far as to say things like “If you’re thinking about what enemy you’re shooting, you’re doing something wrong”, a reference to how you’ve got a meta you can draw upon to not think about what enemy you’re shooting, resulting in a simplification of the game and a for-all-intents-and-purposes removal of a system because it might as well not exist for the player who overpowered it.

Your simplification of sorting did not do justice to what the design of the old system actually enabled, and it’s no surprise either because you never went searching for what the old system enabled. Even if there’s similarities, it was more than just that due to all the other factors that went into a fight and intertwined with the builds and loadouts that someone brings and the enemies and scenarios and game mechanics they’re engaging with.

Everytime someone’s like “I just point and click and the mission completes itself”, I’m horrified by just how much they’re losing out on, where even if they didn’t go to extremes of intertwining, there was still a choice from a whole gradient of gameplay ranging from complex to simple that just gets deleted

2 hours ago, quxier said:

They sorta do with angels where normal enemies I took with AoE and angels with single target.

Wow. AoE vs Single Target. A thing you could do before, with the bonus of extra layers if you went searching for it. Extra layers that are no longer there and you didn’t even need to interact with, which was fantastic news for you.

Great.

Edited June 21 by Merkranire

[quxier]

 

6 hours ago, Merkranire said:

8 hours ago, quxier said:

My post was about "interesting aspect" and "how removing something doesn't mean that it will be automatically overpowered". I simplified "sorting" because it's simple. You put toy X into box X. You just have many boxes & toys.

I think I got lost somewhere; you overpowered the system to remove any need to consider it.

Overpowering doesn't not mean simplifying system. Overpowering means giving it more "power" or "strength". Removing (simplifying) system does not neccessary make us stronger (overpowering). However it can (doesn't have to) happen.

6 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Your simplification of sorting did not do justice to what the design of the old system actually enabled, and it’s no surprise either because you never went searching for what the old system enabled. Even if there’s similarities, it was more than just that due to all the other factors that went into a fight and intertwined with the builds and loadouts that someone brings and the enemies and scenarios and game mechanics they’re engaging with.

Everytime someone’s like “I just point and click and the mission completes itself”, I’m horrified by just how much they’re losing out on, where even if they didn’t go to extremes of intertwining, there was still a choice from a whole gradient of gameplay ranging from complex to simple that just gets deleted

Ok, let's assume I'm stupid & ignorant. All you are saying is that there were many (?) interaction between your loadouts (damage type) and enemies. Give me at least 10. 20 should be easy for you. However DIFFERENT interaction.

7 hours ago, Merkranire said:

9 hours ago, quxier said:

They sorta do with angels where normal enemies I took with AoE and angels with single target.

Wow. AoE vs Single Target. A thing you could do before, with the bonus of extra layers if you went searching for it. Extra layers that are no longer there and you didn’t even need to interact with, which was fantastic news for you.

Great.

Not sure exactly what you are talking here about. Like Single target were good for many mobs if you have some setup?

[Merkranire]

38 minutes ago, quxier said:

Overpowering doesn't not mean simplifying system. Overpowering means giving it more "power" or "strength". Removing (simplifying) system does not neccessary make us stronger (overpowering). However it can (doesn't have to) happen.

It’s what actually happened. There is no ambiguity, when you had an enemy that was resistant to a damage type and you hit them hard enough to kill them in one shot even though they were reducing the damage you were doing to them by whatever the percentage was, you were overpowering the system and it might as well not have existed for you.

Good job.

38 minutes ago, quxier said:

Ok, let's assume I'm stupid & ignorant. All you are saying is that there were many (?) interaction between your loadouts (damage type) and enemies. Give me at least 10. 20 should be easy for you. However DIFFERENT interaction.

Sure! In fact, let me show you! Give me a loadout and an enemy to fight, and I’ll give you a build that will have you switching between your gear and thinking on your feet according to how a fight is playing out according to things like where it’s taking place and what your objective is, if you don’t keel over and die first because you’re a fish out of water when your build isn’t doing all the carrying alone with barely any input from you aside from point and click. There’s 10 interactions in that one mission with that one set of gear and builds alone

38 minutes ago, quxier said:

Not sure exactly what you are talking here about. Like Single target were good for many mobs if you have some setup?

What?

I’m saying that AoE for the fodder and single target for the big bad is like, one of the most basic considerations. The game has all these enemy types and enable you to do just that, whether it’s an Angel and those around it or a Heavygunner and a bunch of lancers or anything where there’s enough of a relative difference between two enemies that hitting one with AoE does a lot less against the one but a goodly chunk of damage against those around it

And it’s not just that; maybe you just need to soften up a group to pick them off with abilities like Nekros’ Soulpunch to add to your army or a single target that pops enemies in a chain reaction or whatever, maybe the projectile speed on your AoE and the amount of reserve ammo is such that picking off three little dudes with consecutive headshots makes more sense and you save your status-applying AoE for something else. I don’t know exactly what your gameplay has been like, but I’m guessing AoE was the answer to all your problems, so try and imagine what might happen when AoE is still useful, but isn’t going to be the best solution all the time

And then add extra layers on top of that; AoE may wipe out a group of enemies but leave resistant enemies standing, facilitating a requirement for something else to be brought to bear because simply shooting them again isn’t the solution. Maybe the damage type of one weapon means it’s not so useful against an enemy despite having its use against a different enemy, but the status effects it applies is actually more valuable for that particular moment and sets up some kind of synergy with another piece of kit.

That sort of interaction, adjusting on the fly as things happen around you, setting scenarios up to make the most out of what you brought while simultaneously not being killed by those trying to kill you (adding further wrinkles to the scenario and mini puzzles to solve and micro goals to achieve), what do you know about that?

Edited June 21 by Merkranire