I love Jade so much, but she really needs a buff

[Evycina]

As a support player, I was so excited for Jade. She seemed like she'd be the ultimate support, able to compete with Wisp and Citrine by bringing her own spin on support to the game, while also having a ton of different tools so that it feels like active support unlike wisp where you just put down your motes and then focus on attacking for the rest of the fight. So many different buffs and options for buffing, the ability to heal and recharge shields, ranged reviving, debuffs. A literal symphony of support. I was over the moon! I wanted another true, pure support frame, and thats what it seemed we were getting. With an angelic and musical theme to boot!

But now I've been playing her for a quite a few hours and.. honestly, why bring her over Wisp or Citrine? Trinity? Even Oberon.

Firstly, her 2. Wisp's buffs can all be stacked and are incredibly strong on their own. Jade's, on the other hand, can't be stacked and aren't even stronger by comparison. Wisp's fire rate buff is significantly more noticeable than the additive weapon damage, the shield buff stops generating on damage (WHY??), and the ability damage buff is kinda just ok. 

Jade's 1, the duration is terrible and I cant really wrap my head around why. Wisp's motes CC and deal damage, heal, and buff, all with infinite duration, creating a safe haven for allies to fall back to, carrying great utility for stationary mission types, and easing energy economy (Jade's energy economy is really rough). I'm all for having more active support in Jade, but the duration being what it is means there's no immediate way for my allies to help me help them. We have to track each other down, and then I have to somehow get them to stay nearby while I throw the bubble. Any other game that'd be no big deal. But this is warframe, where my allies can bullet jump away in half a second and probably will if they're heavily damaged. They're dead before I can get there, every time, and I just end up reviving with my 3. I also don't get why I can throw 5. I say: raise the duration and increase the range in exchange for 2 or 3 of those charges. If you need to balance it further, lower the damage. She's a support frame, after all.

Continuing with her 1, I love that the healing is percentage-based, but it's also kind of rough because of that. Frames with low health will hardly heal at all, and if my allies want to take full advantage of my kit they literally have to build around me. That's on top of basically being forced to play within my bubbles since the duration on healing is so low. I dont want to get rid of that percentage nature, but I feel the heal should offer something more. Maybe enemies in the bubble deal less damage, vastly improving Jade's survivability (which is laughable compared to other support frames), or just add a max health buff somewhere in her kit to synergize with the heal. If a max health increase, it could even do a scaling increase where warframes get more max health depending on their current max - less max means a larger buff. This would help keep balance while also enabling Jade's heal to be more universal and differentiating it from Wisp's buff.

Moving on to Jade's 3, I like this ability a lot, but the stacking nature is a little odd. It takes time to build up, which is an interesting idea but makes it just outright worse than a lot of other abilities that do the same thing. In low level content, most things die before the buff matters, and in high level content there are usually instant and stronger alternatives. Now, the ranged revive part is the coolest. I absolutely adore that, but do wish it could be scaled with mods (faster revive with higher strength?)

Finally, her 4. This ability is a blast while also somehow feeling not super great. One thing I'd love to see is some support tied to it. I would personally adore this ability if it's primary fire healed or did some form of support for allies nearby. It would reduce the need to spam her 1 and further enhance the more active form of support she seems built around. As it stands, it just makes me sad that it doesn't bring any sort of support to the table despite being so angelic. Furthermore, the energy economy is awful especially in this form, where the alt fire detonation can empty my energy ridiculously fast. 

That last bit leads into my final point: energy economy and build options. Most warframes have unified and synergistic designs that lend themselves well to particular builds for specific reasons. But I can't sort out Jade's. The duration on her 1 is horrible, so you need duration if you want to be able to heal reliably. Her buffs are too weak without strength, so that's a necessity. Her range isn't great so you need range for everything except her 2, and her energy economy is awful given how much you have to spam the 1 (between it's awful duration and comparatively low range), so you need efficiency too. On top of that, you basically need massive increases in every category for it to matter - her 1 is only 10 seconds so you'd need 200% for it to even start to feel normal, her buffs are small so you need at least 100% increase there, her range is... you get the point. 

Don't get me wrong, I love her so much. The music, the sound effects, the wings, the theme, the support, the fact her damage doubles as debuffs. I just think she needs some help. I want to feel like I'm not doing my team a disservice by bringing her rather than Wisp, yknow? I hope this feedback helps, and thank you for reading 😊

Edited June 23 by Evycina

[PhiZero]

Definitely, she could use some buffs here and there to define her better aa a support, or even  have some support oriented augments in the future.

Having logged over 10-hours of solo SP, her support options feel...stapled on. Yeah, they're really amazing buffs, but her Aura's feel like they're only there to buff an unoptimized Glory, with the team being collateral damage to benefit from it here and there. Hell, I'm playing solo and even I'm annoyed at myself from managing her aura's and forgetting to swap back to her damage buff, would feel 100% worse if someone was on the receiving end of the management disaster.

She honestly feels more like a selfish support like Chroma, where her support unintentionally buffs her team. When in reality, her auras are inconsistent as she constantly needs to swap to compensate for her undertuned kit; which, also locks you out of your loadout, forcing Jade to either double down and gamble everything on Glory, or give up nearly her entire kit to be played as a weapons platform with auras like Chroma.

It feels like she was supposed to be a DPS Support hybrid, but so far...she's 90% there as a dps, and a complete write off as a support, missing both marks.

Edited June 23 by PhiZero

[Alaena.]

even when i try a dedicated support setup the buffs are still not much use except for the power strength one, the shield bonus is too low to make a difference even with high strength and the damage buff is additive with serration, sure on her exalted thats great because it'll add a lot of relative damage but your allies are here with merciless arcanes and gun CO so deathbringer ends up as a relatively small overall increase, her 1 is a decent heal but only really when healing healthtanks.

if i try to run my normal build which is designed around making glory not just usable, but fun, i have to dedicate so much of the build to making her exalted work that i can't give my buffs the power strength needed for them to be of any use since they reset their strength snapshot when you swap buff rather than when you recast it, meaning if i swap to shield buffs when i see my allies in trouble all it does is take away the 70% strength my conditionals had given the buff when i first cast it, the 70% i need because the build demands 5 archon shards and both arcane slots just to get glory killing in SP reliably and still needs all stats positive to avoid crippling her energy economy or making her 3s range too short to actually use.

Jade needs huge amounts of every ability stat, on top of using archon shards and arcanes just to boost her exalted, all while still struggling with energy upkeep. to get her working reliably without killing the fun factor needs so much that you're left relying on conditional strength bonuses not to try and boost performance like on other frames but as a required part of getting her stats high enough for her abilities to work at all.

I cant try and support allies when im managing so many different conditional bonuses all while barely managing to keep myself from getting killed because i can't afford any survivability mods or shield gating tools without making my abilities unusable. 

 

I love playing jade but her abilities are all so stat demanding that you can't afford to give her the flexibility you can other frames and you have to invest a lot more into her to get less out. 
My main suggested changes are:

• Fix the input delay after casting or dodging while using her 4, being locked out of my vertical movement for a second after the dodge animation ends feels clunky, especially when my other movement is already working fine. this also occurs with firing and casting her 1 and are holding back an incredibly satisfying movement mode.
• Make her 2 snapshot strength on cast, not on swapping buff.
• Make the duration gained on her 2 by killing marked enemies scale with ability duration modding.
• Increase the speed of reviving with her 3, as it is now it doesn't feel like it scales with strength at all and its slower than just using operator to revive while having no advantage as it still forces you to stop firing to look at the downed ally.
• increase the strength of her shield buff so there is an incentive to use it over the other buffs, as it is now the recharge delay reduction and regeneration speed take unachievable amounts of power strength before they become noticeable, and the issue with snapshotting means using it to top up allies overshields isn't viable in combat. the issues here are so bad I almost want to suggest giving it a third bonus in addition to the existing two since it struggles as a defensive bonus already

I'm sure other people have much better ideas simply because I can only address issues I experience with my builds, which are heavily tuned towards her 4th ability above all else. I don't want to see a buff that overcorrects and leads to a future nerf, I'd be happy with only the first two points, but jade needs buffs to her ability to be a support if we want her to be viable as one.

[Tinderox]

hace 16 horas, Evycina dijo:

I just think she needs some help. I want to feel like I'm not doing my team a disservice by bringing her rather than Wisp, yknow? I hope this feedback helps, and thank you for reading

I understand you i recently post a review of how jade do not feal like a real support, and make a bandaid augment for her. The think that make jade pop is her passive judgement. No other support give damage vulnerability(equinox if you wanna think she is a support and not a nuker). But it is only 50%.

Also the shield buff is nice, but if the enemies keep attacking you feels bad. it get less worse if you are fliying, or if the enemies are slowed, like whit her 3. So i make this...

Augment name: Motherly love.(Working title)

Ability affected: Light's Judgment.

Effect:

Light's judgement do not deal damage anymore. Allies under Light's Judgment buff, have a 10% chance to also apply Judgement.(Same % as Glory on high, also stack whit the % of glory on high)

Judgement's damage vulnerability increase in 10%(For example) by the number of enemies marked under Judgement, up to 500%(base Banshee's sonar damage vulnerability)

Killing an enemy under Judgement's debuff, extend Light's Judgement buff in 2 seconds.

If in affinity range Jade cast  Ophanim Eyes, the allies under the effect recieve a copy of that ability whit the same duration as yours.

Whit this augment make Jade have a niche that represents her power in lore, while also being a support. The more you buff your allies, the better damage jade can do beacuse it expand Judgement. The most Judgement is expanded the greater the damage vulnerability. Also give a slow and armor strip, making her a shield buffer, as intended,

[0_The_F00l]

Jade would be a great support in any game that isn't warframe. The way the missions are designed and the way encounters are fast paced (really fast) does not let jade shine as well as she could have.

While on paper she can do a lot of things she suffers from the same issue as equinox , she can't do it all at once.

You would need really good co ordination and understanding in the team to be effective (I rarely even chat in a mission) , else you are mostly just doing what's best for yourself.

So she is less of a support and more of a self buffing frame which can be MADE into a DPS if you force the stats to go a particular way. And yes she does excel as a self buffed DPS when built that way.

Does she need changes ? Depends on what you want to make her into. But she seems to excel when built a very specific way.

[Evycina]

21 hours ago, Tinderox said:

The more you buff your allies, the better damage jade can do

22 hours ago, Tinderox said:

Light's judgement do not deal damage anymore. Allies under Light's Judgment buff, have a 10% chance to also apply Judgement.(Same % as Glory on high, also stack whit the % of glory on high)

Judgement's damage vulnerability increase in 10%(For example) by the number of enemies marked under Judgement, up to 500%(base Banshee's sonar damage vulnerability)

Killing an enemy under Judgement's debuff, extend Light's Judgement buff in 2 seconds.

If in affinity range Jade cast  Ophanim Eyes, the allies under the effect recieve a copy of that ability whit the same duration as yours.

This imo is how a support should work. I've never cared too much about the damage I deal so long as I'm able to contribute enough team damage increase to balance things out, but I also know I'm in the minority there and warframe is a different sort of game anyway, especially given solo players need to be able to do their thing too. This is how it ought to be done though - reward support with additional damage. I'd prefer if the support were strong enough that it would balance out low damage (meaning I'd prefer they buff her support at the expense of her damage since right now, as others have mentioned, her damage is at least serviceable, but I recognize others would disagree and totally get why. I suppose in actuality a buff to both is needed). I like your suggested changes too, but I also don't want her to just be patched with an augment. I do want support oriented augments (and I LOVE your idea), but want her default state to improve too, yknow? Thanks for posting, I hope they read your idea!!

21 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Jade would be a great support in any game that isn't warframe. The way the missions are designed and the way encounters are fast paced (really fast) does not let jade shine as well as she could have.

21 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So she is less of a support and more of a self buffing frame which can be MADE into a DPS if you force the stats to go a particular way. And yes she does excel as a self buffed DPS when built that way.

I agree with this too. I just find it really frustrating because we already have enough DPS frames with support on the side. True support frames are few and far between, and Jade has so much built into her kit (on paper) that I'd expect her to feel incredible as a support. She's not meeting that expectation right now even if I do love the idea of her on paper, and it's baffling to me that a frame marketed as a support is better as a damage dealer. She should at the very least compete with other supports, yknow? Thanks for sharing your thoughts! 

22 hours ago, Alaena. said:

I love playing jade but her abilities are all so stat demanding that you can't afford to give her the flexibility you can other frames and you have to invest a lot more into her to get less out.

22 hours ago, Alaena. said:

I'm sure other people have much better ideas simply because I can only address issues I experience with my builds, which are heavily tuned towards her 4th ability above all else. I don't want to see a buff that overcorrects and leads to a future nerf, I'd be happy with only the first two points, but jade needs buffs to her ability to be a support if we want her to be viable as one.

I agree with everything you said, and especially agree that her abilities require way too much investment to be good. I also definitely don't want an overcorrection that leads to a future nerf either, but I do love your suggestions. Overall I want her to be good no matter how you build her. If people wanna play her as a dps, I want them to be able to. Same with how I wanna play her as a support. Right now I feel like her build flexibility just prevents both, even if DPS gets closer to being viable. I think your suggested changes are great, I just hope whatever they do, if anything, lets me build her as a pure support rivalling the likes of Wisp, Citrine, Trinity, and others. Also I didn't even know about the snapshotting thing! Thank you for commenting!

On 2024-06-22 at 10:48 PM, PhiZero said:

Definitely, she could use some buffs here and there to define her better aa a support, or even  have some support oriented augments in the future.

Her support options feel...stapled on. 

On 2024-06-22 at 10:48 PM, PhiZero said:

Her auras are inconsistent as she constantly needs to swap to compensate for her undertuned kit

Again, I couldn't agree more, and I really am not a fan of how things are currently. What you said is similar to how I feel about her heal. It's often not enough on its own, so I frequently have to switch to the shield buff to keep myself and others alive (and even then they still die sometimes because of the stupid 'no shield regen on damage taken' thing). That then means I'm no longer providing my teammates or myself with a desperately needed ability strength buff, which means I've just made my own support weaker. I can't help but wonder if her whole kit just needs to be stronger in general. Her heal should be enough on its own, her shield regen should be enough on its own for that playstyle, and her buffs shouldn't just there to fill holes in an undertuned kit. Thanks so much for your thoughts though. I really hope they listen to us

[Aleadis]

Personally I feel the shield regen buff is kinda lame in the kit. But my biggest gripe with the kit overall is that you can't do anything after you cast 1 until the ball hits and the aoe expands. it screws the gameplay flow so hard since ideally you should be tossing out your 1 on enemy groups before shooting them... you should certainly be able to continue shooting while you throw out the orb, like you can with Vauban 2/4. As it is, I almost feel like subsuming something like nourish or ember/oberon first ability (with augment) over her 1 is the best play.

[Evycina]

4 hours ago, Aleadis said:

Personally I feel the shield regen buff is kinda lame in the kit. But my biggest gripe with the kit overall is that you can't do anything after you cast 1 until the ball hits and the aoe expands. it screws the gameplay flow so hard since ideally you should be tossing out your 1 on enemy groups before shooting them... you should certainly be able to continue shooting while you throw out the orb, like you can with Vauban 2/4. As it is, I almost feel like subsuming something like nourish or ember/oberon first ability (with augment) over her 1 is the best play.

I like the shield regen buff specifically because the healing isn't enough to keep allies alive, so the shield regen is required to help bolster that. Personally, I love being able to heal both shields and health, but it wouldn't be necessary 1. if the healing were stronger and 2. the healing were done differently or bolstered by other buffs because, as it stands, being able to regen shields is required since shield-heavy frames which are low on max health will hardly heal at all since the healing is percentage based on max health. I'd prefer if the kit doubled down on the healing somehow, but I absolutely would not give up the shield buff right now since it's required to support frames that go all-in on shields and have low max health. 

Maybe they could buff the healing somehow, or add it to the shield buff. I personally would love something like... the shield buff provides the same healing as her 1 (with a buff, preferably) as well as it's current shield regen (with the ability to regen on damage, like Protea), but with an added effect that any over healing is converted to overguard. Or something, maybe max health. Just something to increase the survivability I give my team and make that version of her 2 powerful enough to be worth using over the other options. Heck, maybe give it some other buff based on the amount of overguard your team has to incentive healing as much as possible. 

I don't mind her animations preventing shooting, but you make a really good point. Thanks for sharing your thoughts 😊

[Stormandreas]

She REALLY doesn't need a buff.

Day 1, I took her to levelcap. She absolutely does NOT struggle.

Nourish on the 1
Reaching 554% strength on her 4
443% strength on her 2
Primary fire on Glory

Annihilates levelcap enemies in less than a second, while also having permanently recharging shields at a rate of 854 per second, easy 2.5s shield gate constantly and 0.2s shield recharge delay.

She has NO issue with ANYTHING.
She's not a Support Frame, she's a DPS frame with Support elements

Edited June 25 by Stormandreas

[-AncientWarrior-]

6 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

She REALLY doesn't need a buff.

Day 1, I took her to levelcap. She absolutely does NOT struggle.

Nourish on the 1
Reaching 554% strength on her 4
460/470ish% strenght on her 2
Primary fire on Glory

Annihilates levelcap enemies in less than a second, while also having permanently recharging shields at a rate of about 850 per second, easy 2.5s shield gate constantly and 0.2s shield recharge delay.

She has NO issue with ANYTHING.
She's not a Support Frame, she's a DPS frame with Support elements

Totally agree with this.. I thought Jade was a support frame until I went wabbit hunting.. and she definately kills em wabbits :)

[dsagent]

Yeah I'm just going to pop in and say Jade is almost immortal while mowing down steel path enemies easily.

They accidently make an assault frame.

[icefyer]

1 hour ago, dsagent said:

Yeah I'm just going to pop in and say Jade is almost immortal while mowing down steel path enemies easily.

They accidently make an assault frame.

Which is funny because they advertised a frame just as capable at support as she is damage, and they gave us a support frame that can't support well except as a side effect of buffing itself just so it can damage.

Edited June 24 by icefyer

[Evycina]

3 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

She REALLY doesn't need a buff.

Day 1, I took her to levelcap. She absolutely does NOT struggle.

Nourish on the 1
Reaching 554% strength on her 4
460/470ish% strenght on her 2
Primary fire on Glory

Annihilates levelcap enemies in less than a second, while also having permanently recharging shields at a rate of about 850 per second, easy 2.5s shield gate constantly and 0.2s shield recharge delay.

She has NO issue with ANYTHING.
She's not a Support Frame, she's a DPS frame with Support elements

Yeah see that's where there's a problem. She was marketed as a support frame, or at the very least a frame that can be built for both and do both well. It's cool and all that her damage is fine or whatever, but also you shouldn't have to subsume something on her for that in the first place. And her support does have issues, there's no denying that. Frames like Wisp are perfectly powerful too in SP, while bringing excellent support. She should be able to do the same, but instead she's outclassed. If her damage is good, great! Bring her support up to match, and balance the damage around those changes so it either stays the same or has a bit more power. That's my opinion, anyway. Thanks for sharing yours!

[Evycina]

1 hour ago, icefyer said:

Which is funny because they advertised a frame just as capable at support as she is damage, and they gave us a support frame that can't support well except as a side effect of buffing itself just so it can damage.

Thank you, this is exactly my point. I'm glad all the dps players in here are happy, but that's only one side of the conversation. We already have few enough true support frames as it is, and as I said in another comment her support can be brought up to par without nerfing her dps so I don't really see the point in saying there's no room for improvement. Idk, maybe that's just me. I do appreciate everyone's input though

2 hours ago, dsagent said:

Yeah I'm just going to pop in and say Jade is almost immortal while mowing down steel path enemies easily.

They accidently make an assault frame.

I would like to make my allies immortal while they mow down the enemies. Something she should be able to do as a warframe that was marketed as a support. Why not have both? Build variety exists for a reason, after all. I'd like for everyone to be happy, not just the DPS and solo crowd

Edited June 24 by Evycina

[PhiZero]

4 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

Annihilates levelcap enemies in less than a second, while also having permanently recharging shields at a rate of about 850 per second, easy 2.5s shield gate constantly and 0.2s shield recharge delay

Off-topic question,

I'm assuming that 2.5-sec gate is Boreal's Hatred? And if so, how much airborne DR have you managed to fit in?

(I've managed Aviator + 2-piece Boreal, which is getting REALLY good mileage with Vazarin as a fallback gate, but don't know if I can justify Aerodynamic...)

Edited June 25 by PhiZero

[Stormandreas]

10 hours ago, PhiZero said:

Off-topic question,

I'm assuming that 2.5-sec gate is Boreal's Hatred? And if so, how much airborne DR have you managed to fit in?

(I've managed Aviator + 2-piece Boreal, which is getting REALLY good mileage with Vazarin as a fallback gate, but don't know if I can justify Aerodynamic...)

The 2.5s Shield gate is just from Redirection or Primed redirection.

Boreals hatred is garbage. Don't use it. The boost it gives is incredibly low, and with Nourish, Jade doesn't care about efficiency (considering her 1 is the only good subsumable, you aren't really gonna rely on the crazily energy hungry alt fire on the 4 anyway, on a frame with very low base energy)

I used 0 airborne DR. DR is completely pointless when enemies blast the shield off instantly, or I'm just flatout immortal due to shield gating.
There's no reason to use airborne DR when you're shields are restoring in 0.2s of not taking damage (very easy), and you're restoring 852.4 shields a second. That's a combination of Jades 2 and Fast Deflection.
That's running at 443% strength due to:
Blind Rage +99%
Umbral Intensify +44%
Power Drift +15%
Growing Power +25%
Molt Augmented +60%
Grimoire +60%
Madurai +40%

With this, the 2 gives a 44% shield restoration per second, and 44% shield recharge Delay.
Combined with Fast Deflection, I'm garunteed the 80% shield recharge delay cap (0.2s delay).
I have 1540 shields using Primed Redirection, with the 2 alone restoring 44% of that every second

So, 2nd restores:
1540 shields x 0.44% regened per second = 677.6 Shields regenned per second.
at 1540 shields+Fast deflection, I naturally restore 174.8 shields per second.
677.6+174.8 = 852.4 Shields restored per second
That's 1.8 seconds to fully restore all my shields. No time at all.
If you wanted to go nuts, add on Fortitude to drop it down to 1.63s, or both Fortitude and Vigilante Vigor for 1.54s (not overly advised going this crazy with it)

None of that is considering I also have a sentinel with Guardian which can auto-restore my shields to max constantly.

This also DOESN'T consider the fact, I can snapshot that strength, provided I just never change off of shield mode once I go in. As the 2nds duration is theoretically infinite, I can maintain that shield restoration the entire mission, especially in an Endurance Run.
Swapping the 2nds mode, acts as if you're re-casting the ability for the purposes of snapshotting strength, so changing off once the Grimoire and Madurai buff runs out, will result in losing 100% strength.

Ontop of all of that, the strength bonuses benefit all the other abilities in my build.
Nourish for Viral damage+Energy
Ophanim Eye for faster armour strip. It's now a bit over 2 seconds and enemies are fully stripped, and they are slowed, meaning less shots less often, meaning easier shield restoration (seriously this ability is stupidly broken)
Glory on High... need I say more?

 

If memory serves, that levelcap, I didn't go down at all (other than my game crashing due to an internet blip I guess). I've had no issues with survival because the shield gating and restoration is entirely automatic, unless I really start messing around and deliberately let myself take a ton of fire.

Edited June 25 by Stormandreas

[PhiZero]

Appreciated! I have been operating on a 200% str build, and hadn't considered a high str setup for the shield aura.

It also negates the practicality of Arcane Aegis as well, which I've been struggling to justify removing until your write up!

Though I was slotting in airborne DR for sub-300 content, as with Aegis she was still immortal. Though photosensitivity may be an issue, about to give the build a spin to see.

If the migraines come back, may be restricted to the DR build. ;-;

Edited June 25 by PhiZero

[Stormandreas]

11 hours ago, Evycina said:

Yeah see that's where there's a problem. She was marketed as a support frame, or at the very least a frame that can be built for both and do both well. It's cool and all that her damage is fine or whatever, but also you shouldn't have to subsume something on her for that in the first place. And her support does have issues, there's no denying that. Frames like Wisp are perfectly powerful too in SP, while bringing excellent support. She should be able to do the same, but instead she's outclassed. If her damage is good, great! Bring her support up to match, and balance the damage around those changes so it either stays the same or has a bit more power. That's my opinion, anyway. Thanks for sharing yours!

Granted, you don't HAVE to subsume on her, she can work perfectly fine in a support role without a subsume, however, the issue people are having is they are desperately trying to get the Alt Fire working on Glory.

That's the mistake.

Jade has 200 base energy at max. That's lower than EXCALIBUR! On a frame you'd think you'd want energy, she has a low pool. This is because, she's not MEANT to be spamming that Alt Fire.

As for DPS, she absolutely out kills a Wisp. Wisps biggest trick is Breach Surge and Motes.
All frames can use Breach Surge
The motes are the support element. Wisp gets called the best support in the game, because she's the only frame that, despite being designed as a "Caster, dps frame with support elements" is able to provide any sort of meaningful support without really trying.
That said, the support really is mostly just Haste. The healing doesn't mean much if enemies are doing a ton of damage to frames with no armour, and means especially nothign when you get to level 2k+.

Jades biggest support is in the 50% Damage Vulnerability at pretty high, autonomous ranges, Strength buffing, and shield restoration.
Shield Restoration > Health Restoration btw, because shield gating exists.
She also doesn't have to think about it at all. Just, turn it on, use your 1 or 4, kill enemies. That's it.
Wisp at least has to consider where to place motes (not much effort granted)
Dante is another good example too. He has 3 abilities that provide INSANE support, but is used as a Nuke frame because his nuking ability is unparalleled. Not only that, his supporting elements is creating OVERGUARD!
Overguard being extremely broken, with Gating, Status Immunity, Massive healthpools and providing higher EHP, and doing this almost autonomously as well.

The BIGGEST mistake DE make when considering support frames, is that they fail to realise that throwing extremely high damage, high fire rate, armour stripping damage vulnerability aspects onto frames, is NOT support, that's DPS (this is agreeing with you basically).
They don't realise that when the players think support, we think:
- Healing
- Shield restoring
- Overguard generation (please stop with this though, it's so broken and boring)
- Status cleansing and immunity (Not through overguard)
- ENERGY RESTORATION (We currently have six.... SIX Frames that generates energy for the team innately without any outside influence. Trinity, Limbo, Protea, Octavia, Styanax and Citrine. These six frames can make energy directly, or energy orbs innately via their abilties, not including augments or RNG like what Nekros Desecrate would rely on)
- Weapon/Ability buffing
- Speed buffing
- Providing Protection like Volt Shield or Frost Snowglobe

There's SO much they can do in the Support Category, but don't. At least Jade has the unique effect of being able to remotely revive people... oh wait... Nekros has that augment...

 

TL;DR:
I DO agree with you, she needs to be changed over to being a support based frame vs a DPS frame with Support elements, that's what I was originally thinking she would be, but DE decided to go down a DPS route for some reason and skipped all the potential an Angel Frame could of provided as a support.

[Stormandreas]

7 minutes ago, PhiZero said:

Appreciated! I have been operating on a 200% str build, and hadn't considered a high str setup for the shield aura.

It also negates the practicality of Arcane Aegis as well, which I've been struggling to justify removing until your write up!

Though I was slotting in airborne DR for sub-300 content, as with Aegis she was still immortal. Though photosensitivity may be an issue, about to give the build a spin to see.

If the migraines come back, may be restricted to the DR build. ;-;

Arcane aegis you might not want to use with Jade. I've been trying it out with Jade because there's a bug with it (been around for ages), where when it procs, it will permanently remove the 80% shield recharge delay cap.

However, this completely stops the 2 from recharging shields into Overshields entirely (which is bad if you're using a companion with Reinforced Bond, something that Jade can make EXTREME use out of)

As for the visual effects, go into your Display settings and turn off Screen Distortions, also, go into Accessibility and turn down the Visual Effect Intensity.
Trust me, it does ABSOLUTE WONDERS!

Edited June 25 by Stormandreas

[PhiZero]

17 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

As for the visual effects, go into your Display settings and turn off Screen Distortions, also, go into Accessibility and turn down the Visual Effect Intensity.
Trust me, it does ABSOLUTE WONDERS!

Never noticed that setting, it absolutely helps! Though I wouldn't be able to see where I was hitting if I hadn't had a high contrast energy color, definite catch-22, will tweak it to a good balance over the next week.

With my current shards, I can't run the build properly. +180% Toxin Tick Damage and +75% energy from energy orbs, pretty solid for Glory primary fire with Archon Continuity and Blast, which Nourish is 100% going to mess with my current Toxin weighting.

...though this is also the exact reason why I built a 2nd and 3rd Jade, can finally try a normal Jade without needing to burn 150% bile!

Edit: Definitely going to set up the Nourish-build first, would like to try a max-range + duration support set eventually.

Edited June 25 by PhiZero

[Shinoyami65]

35 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

Jades biggest support is in the 50% Damage Vulnerability at pretty high, autonomous ranges, Strength buffing, and shield restoration.
Shield Restoration > Health Restoration btw, because shield gating exists.
She also doesn't have to think about it at all. Just, turn it on, use your 1 or 4, kill enemies. That's it.
Wisp at least has to consider where to place motes (not much effort granted)
Dante is another good example too. He has 3 abilities that provide INSANE support, but is used as a Nuke frame because his nuking ability is unparalleled. Not only that, his supporting elements is creating OVERGUARD!
Overguard being extremely broken, with Gating, Status Immunity, Massive healthpools and providing higher EHP, and doing this almost autonomously as well.

The BIGGEST mistake DE make when considering support frames, is that they fail to realise that throwing extremely high damage, high fire rate, armour stripping damage vulnerability aspects onto frames, is NOT support, that's DPS (this is agreeing with you basically).
They don't realise that when the players think support, we think:
- Healing
- Shield restoring
- Overguard generation (please stop with this though, it's so broken and boring)
- Status cleansing and immunity (Not through overguard)
- ENERGY RESTORATION (We currently have six.... SIX Frames that generates energy for the team innately without any outside influence. Trinity, Limbo, Protea, Octavia, Styanax and Citrine. These six frames can make energy directly, or energy orbs innately via their abilties, not including augments or RNG like what Nekros Desecrate would rely on)
- Weapon/Ability buffing
- Speed buffing
- Providing Protection like Volt Shield or Frost Snowglobe

There's SO much they can do in the Support Category, but don't. At least Jade has the unique effect of being able to remotely revive people... oh wait... Nekros has that augment...

TL;DR:
I DO agree with you, she needs to be changed over to being a support based frame vs a DPS frame with Support elements, that's what I was originally thinking she would be, but DE decided to go down a DPS route for some reason and skipped all the potential an Angel Frame could of provided as a support.

Shield Restoration isn't more valuable than health restoration in Jade's case because what she technically provides is faster shield recharge rate and a bit of overshields, rather than providing a flat amount of shields like Trinity, Protea or Harrow. This is an important distinction because shields don't automatically recharge while things are shooting you, so Jade can't actually do shield gating shenanigans like other frames. Once shields go down she only makes them recharge a bit faster rather than giving you a fat chunk of shields immediately. 

TBH the real issue with support frames is that most of the categories you listed are either irrelevant in the current meta or have been supplanted by Helminth, Arcanes, focus trees, mods or abilities. Nobody needs Trinity's free energy as much anymore because of Arcane Energise, Equilibrium, Zenurik, etc. making it a lot easier to maintain energy economy. Overguard and Rolling Guard makes status cleanse generally unnecessary. Healing is pretty much irrelevant at higher levels because of how much damage enemies deal, and there are already several ways to heal yourself without needing a dedicated healer. Protective abilities and damage reduction take you further, but most people still end up relying on gating and i-frames by the endgame once damage starts scaling into the millions. Even the supports that we currently have usually end up with DPS abilities or builds which incentivise damage over their supportive abilities (i.e. Breach Surge, the old Nuke Trinity builds, Protea's Blaze Artillery, etc.). A frame which ONLY provides support without the ability to kill or deal damage sadly ends up by the wayside in the current Warframe because everyone can self-sustain (as can be seen in Oberon and Trinity). 

DE stated from the start that Jade was going to be a debuff support who supports by making it easier to kill enemies (slowing them, dealing DoTs, increasing the damage they take with damage vulnerability/defence strip) rather than a flat sustain/buffer support, and I think that's an interesting niche because every other support we've seen is focused on sustain or buffing over weakening enemies. I don't think they need to kneecap her into just being Trinity 2.0 because that would either make her irrelevant or power-creep frames which are already viewed poorly in the current meta. 

Edited June 25 by Shinoyami65

[Stormandreas]

11 minutes ago, PhiZero said:

Never noticed that setting, it absolutely helps! Though I wouldn't be able to see where I was hitting if I hadn't had a high contrast energy color, definite catch-22, will tweak it to a good balance over the next week.

With my current shards, I can't run the build properly. +180% Toxin Tick Damage and +75% energy from energy orbs, pretty solid for Glory primary fire with Archon Continuity and Blast, which Nourish is 100% going to mess with my current Toxin weighting.

...though this is also the exact reason why I built a 2nd and 3rd Jade, can finally try a normal Jade without needing to burn 150% bile!

Edit: Definitely going to set up the Nourish-build first, would like to try a max-range + duration support set eventually.

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, not blast.

There's a stupid thing going around right now that "blast is meta". It's not. It's fine, it's usable, but not "meta".
With Nourish, run Magnetic and Heat.
Viral, Mag and Heat gives you bonus damage to every single health type in the game, strips 50% of armour, has Infinite damage, duration and stacking procs, and has scaling procs.

Archon Continuity isn't really worth using honestly, especially now that enemy armour is so crazily low that we can just ignore the fact that it's there, ontop of the fact Jade already fully armour strips so stupidly easily.

You don't need multiple Jades for multiple builds either. Just use the Configs. You can have up to 6 of them on a single frame.

As for shards, I'd sugggest 5 TF Topaz for Secondary CC.
Despite the 15% CC base, you can get her reliably orange Critting with Creeping Bullseye, Cascadia Overcharge (yes this works), 5 TF Topaz shards and Arcane Avenger

[PhiZero]

13 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, not blast.

There's a stupid thing going around right now that "blast is meta". It's not. It's fine, it's usable, but not "meta".
With Nourish, run Magnetic and Heat.
Viral, Mag and Heat gives you bonus damage to every single health type in the game, strips 50% of armour, has Infinite damage, duration and stacking procs, and has scaling procs.

Archon Continuity isn't really worth using honestly, especially now that enemy armour is so crazily low that we can just ignore the fact that it's there, ontop of the fact Jade already fully armour strips so stupidly easily.

You don't need multiple Jades for multiple builds either. Just use the Configs. You can have up to 6 of them on a single frame.

As for shards, I'd sugggest 5 TF Topaz for Secondary CC.
Despite the 15% CC base, you can get her reliably orange Critting with Creeping Bullseye, Cascadia Overcharge (yes this works), 5 TF Topaz shards and Arcane Avenger

Yep, I've been eying some Tua Amber and Crimson shards on frames I'm not using anymore.

And yeah, Blast is severly overrated...it's much better than before, but it's more that it's the only combo element worth getting for a Toxin setup. (Even with R0 Frostbite and Scorch, can't nudge the needle further than a 50 50 split...it hurts, but it's servicable so far. Though radiation is probably going to be a good pick for Murmurs, so it isn't all bad!)

Also noticed Cascadia Overcharge worked as well, not sure if it will be patched so I haven't been relying on it. 90%-is CC has sufficed so far, will wait and see DE's final stance on Exalted weapons and stat sticks.

As for multiple Jades, it's more that I don't want to constantly throw away perfectly good bile to swap builds. Jade is already my favorite frame from this decade, it will be worth having multiple copies of her with different shards that don't need to be removed to swap builds. The plan is to keep the toxin build with 4 Emeralds and 1 Amber, next up is as you mentioned 5-amber for CC, though the last one I'm currently eying 3-crimsons for +45% duration to patch up her 1 as a group debuff in squads. (10 seconds base, doesn't feel good in the slightest.)

Edited June 25 by PhiZero

[Stormandreas]

Just now, Shinoyami65 said:

Shield Restoration isn't more valuable than health restoration in Jade's case because what she technically provides is faster shield recharge rate and a bit of overshields, rather than providing a flat amount of shields like Trinity, Protea or Harrow. This is an important distinction because shields don't automatically recharge while things are shooting you, so Jade can't actually do shield gating shenanigans like other frame. Once shields go down she only makes them recharge a bit faster rather than giving you a fat chunk of shields immediately. 

TBH the real issue with support frames is that most of the categories you listed are either irrelevant in the current meta or have been supplanted by Helminth, Arcanes, focus trees, mods or abilities. Nobody needs Trinity's free energy as much anymore because of Arcane Energise, Equilibrium, Zenurik, etc. making it a lot easier to maintain energy economy. Overguard and Rolling Guard makes status cleanse generally unnecessary. Healing is pretty much irrelevant at higher levels because of how much damage enemies deal. Protective abilities and damage reduction take you further, but most people still end up relying on gating and i-frames by the endgame once damage starts scaling into the millions. Even the supports that we currently have usually end up with DPS abilities or builds which incentivise damage over their supportive abilities (i.e. Breach Surge, the old Nuke Trinity builds, Protea's Blaze Artillery, etc.). A frame which ONLY provides support without the ability to kill or deal damage sadly ends up by the wayside in the current Warframe because everyone can self-sustain (as can be seen in Oberon and Trinity). 

DE stated from the start that Jade was going to be a debuff support who supports by making it easier to kill enemies (slowing them, dealing DoTs, increasing the damage they take with damage vulnerability/defence strip) rather than a flat sustain/buffer support, and I think that's an interesting niche because every other support we've seen is focused on sustain or buffing over weakening enemies. I don't think they need to kneecap her into just being Trinity 2.0 because that would either make her irrelevant or power-creep frames which are already viewed poorly in the current meta. 

You're saying that Jades Health Restoration (which is a regen over time, only activated by walking into the AOE) is more valuable than recharging everyones shields, over time, within affinity range.
Both are regens over time.
Shield restoration provides faster shield regeneration and shorter Regen delay, resulting in allowing all teammates to shieldgate much more easily. You're really saying her health regen is better? Huh?

You even contradict this later by saying that players mostly start relying on gating at higher levels, which is exactly what Jades shield restoration assists in doing.

A bit faster =/= 44% of your max shields restored a second. That's more than any other frame bar Hildryn can boast, and yes, you're right, shields don't recharge if you take damage.... just move around for 0.2 seconds and you'll recharge shields, it's really not hard.
Hildryn being the only other frame that can contend with this, doesn't apply it to herself, and doesn't provide shield recharge delay either. Jade does.

Energy Restoration is not irrelevant
Shield restoration is not irrelevant
Status Immunity is not irrelevant
Ability and weapon buffing is not irrelevant

Like, I don't understand what you're trying to argue here honestly. Yes, there are self supporting tools. That doesn't immediately stop support frames or abilities with these effects being irrelevant, especially in organised groups.

The only part I agree with is Overguard making Status cleansing, Shield and Health restoration irrelevant. There's a reason I said it is broken and boring.

Frames like Oberon, has an aged and buggy kit. His support is also all about health and armour, with a little status cleansing. The health and armour is indeed, irellevant cause of gating, which is due to powercreep. Even his armour strip doesn't work half the time.

DE stated Jade was going to be a support buff/debuff, not just a debuff frame. She infact, does only 3 debuffs. 50% damage vulnerablity (not modifiable), a stacking slow effect (not modifiable) and an armour strip (modifiable).
Her buffs, she has:
Health Regen
Shield Regen
Strength Buff
Weapon Buff

She has more Buff than Debuff, but it's all geared towards DPS.

 

It just feels contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.

[Stormandreas]

1 minute ago, PhiZero said:

Yep, I've been eying some Tua Amber and Crimson shards on frames I'm not using anymore.

And yeah, Blast is severly overrated...it's much better than before, but it's more that it's the only combo element worth getting for a Toxin setup. (Even with R0 Frostbite and Scorch, can't nudge the needle further than a 50 50 split...it hurts, but it's servicable so far. Though radiation is probably going to be a good pick for Murmurs, so it isn't all bad!)

Also noticed Cascadia Overcharge worked as well, not sure if it will be patched so I haven't been relying on it. 90%-is CC has sufficed so far, will wait and see DE's final stance on Exalted weapons and stat sticks.

As for multiple Jades, it's more that I don't want to constantly throw away perfectly good bile to swap builds. Jade is already my favorite frame from this decade, it will be worth having multiple copies of her with different shards that don't need to be removed to swap builds. The plan is to keep the toxin build with 4 Emeralds and 1 Amber, next up is as you mentioned 5-amber for CC, though the last one I'm currently eying 3-crimsons for +45% duration to patch up her 1 as a group debuff in squads. (10 seconds base, doesn't feel good in the slightest.)

Agreed, it's definitely better than before, but certainly not as good as it's being spouted as being.

Radiation would only be good for raw damage. It's a mistake DE also make, that Raw Damage and Status Effects are two sides of the same coin, they can't be seperated. It's why I always just use Viral. It's only 50% weaker vs Deimos Infested and Murmur for Raw damage, but it's status effect completely counteracts that, ESPECIALLY considering both of those Factions are just big healthpools for the mostpart, so Viral Effects have a drastic difference.

Overcharge has been working for a looooooooong time. If they fixed it now, under the guise that it's a "bug", it'd be a bit weird (and silly imo). It's been so long, it might as well stay.

The shards I can get. I am still baffled that we don't get to use different secretions depending on the shard time. DE are obsessed with using Bile for literally everything now, and it's infuriating cause it's the worst secretion to farm mats for, and just makes Helminth a one resource system instead of the big, all resource system it's meant to be.