Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, 4thBro a dit :

Openly telling people to ignore the guy that you have no good response to is pretty surreal.

Yes it's surreal.

Il y a 2 heures, 4thBro a dit :

If this hasn't made you lose credibility with the last remaining people, then I don't know what will.

[...]

And you're going back on my list. You had your chance to hold a conversation earnestly. You did not succeed.

Unreal, even.

[4thBro]

7 minutes ago, Lemon said:

Reading some of these posts i think that some changes could be too great for DE to commit to at this point. However hear me out, this is a change i think could greatly improve game feel: remove all hit-scan weapons.

By increasing the damage normal enemies do but turning all their weapons into projectiles you make it so its easier to dodge, easier to tell where you are even getting shot from in the first place so that you can take cover.

A big thing people dislike is suddenly dying without knowing why, a lot of the time it would be (in my experience) Grineer shotgunners. Their hit-scan type weapons would be hard to see and you would just suddenly get shot and instantly die.

Also from a psychological standpoint, instead of just having mosquitos bite you constantly, seeing the projectiles flying at you would make the enemies feel more like a threat too. This is just my take on this topic as i think it would be the most realistic to implement and would have the largest gameplay feel impact.

That would be a very good change. But I do think it would be a minor contribution to the problem it tries to help with.

But still would be good nonetheless.

[PublikDomain]

12 minutes ago, kuciol said:

What power level should be taken as baseline? Without that we cannot have any meaningfull discussion.

A TTK like the one already about what we've got in EDA is a great baseline. That's like what, 1-2s for basic units and 4-6s+ for bigger guys?

[PublikDomain]

13 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Because it makes money, and they need to eat. If you add a gamemode which bring nothing to the table except challenge, nobody will play it. Why would they play it ?

Ok. And they're already making this content that "brings nothing to the table except challenge". Because it makes money. Because people play it.

Kucoil isn't the only person playing the game. There is no "nobody will play it". You guys won't play it. And that's fine. The rest of us will and do, and that's why DE keeps making it.

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, PublikDomain a dit :

Ok. And they're already making this content that "brings nothing to the table except challenge". Because it makes money. Because people play it.

Which ?

il y a 3 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

You guys won't play it. And that's fine. The rest of us will and do

Which content ?

[4thBro]

5 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

The rest of us will and do, and that's why DE keeps making it.

Maybe I just need to drop this conversation and wait quietly in hopes that they eventually get it right. They've grazed it a few times, and I think Cascade is the closest.

I think if they realize almost nobody likes randomized loadout options, and stop adding it, then... ... like removing a useless riven mod from the pool of possibilities, the odds of a good endgame drastically increase.

 

It's just a shame, both for me and for them, that I won't really play the game anymore until then. They are missing out on a lot of money just from me alone, lol.

Edited August 20 by 4thBro

[PublikDomain]

10 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Which ?

Which content ?

23 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And then you have the long history of content that DE rolled out that they described as being endgame or challenging. EDA being the most recent example:

Quote

Deep Archimedea is a weekly challenge with three missions that must be completed in a single sequence.
...
Deep Archimedea has an extremely high difficulty level and is designed to really put you and your Arsenal to the test.

Before that it was Archon Hunts:

Quote

These missions are intended to be challenging, so select your loadouts carefully to overcome your obstacles and take down your opponents.

Steel Path:

Quote

It is time to take on a new challenge. The Origin System is ever-changing. Our enemies grow more powerful - only the Tenno with true mastery of their Arsenal will overcome what awaits us.
...
If you are not ready for this challenge, fear not, it’s not going anywhere. One day you may be prepared to take The Steel Path. 

Arbitrations:

Quote

A new type of challenge is available to players that have completed the entire Solar Map!
...
Note: Failure is a rare thing in Warframe, in the month of September only 2.5% of all missions were Failed. Prepare yourself for a new reality where failure may become the norm for these missions - can you overcome the odds!?

Sorties:

Quote

Sortie Missions are difficult endgame Missions for experienced Tenno that can be completed alone or with a group.

And so on. This pattern tracks all the way back to the beginning. T4 Void Keys, Nightmare missions, Solar Rail Conflicts, Raids, etc.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, 4thBro said:

I think if they realize almost nobody likes randomized loadout options, and stop adding it, then... ... like removing a useless riven mod from the pool of possibilities, the odds of a good endgame drastically increase.

But EDA seems to be pretty popular, and DE has said that WitW was their best update ever. So I doubt that "almost nobody likes randomized loadout options". If that were true then it'd have died in the Circuit.

Now is gear RNG the best way to make an endgame? No. But it is an option, and it does do what it's supposed to sorta well, and there are many who don't mind it and some who even enjoy it.

Should there be endgame content that doesn't use gear RNG? Yes. Of course. But if we have a broad endgame with many different options then this issue resolves itself. Then you can just play the stuff you like, whatever that stuff is. There can be endgame with gear RNG. There can be endgame without it. There can be endgame that doesn't involve combat at all. Whether that's a challenge or social systems or constructive systems or competition, there should be something for everyone. That would be the ideal.

Edit: Or maybe when talking about gear RNG I should say, it's not ideal but it does work. In order to create a challenge DE has to do something to standardize players. Otherwise what level do you put the challenge at? How can you know? So DE relies on mechanical layers like gear RNG to disrupt optimized builds or attenuation to average out incoming damage. So popular or not, DE has to use these kinds of mechanics as long as they are avoiding balancing the underlying systems making them necessary. We wouldn't need gear RNG if all of our gear was more equally good. Then it'd be easier to decide what level things should be. We wouldn't need Attenuation or phases or proc immunity or proc caps or all these things meant to tamp us down if we were just consistently strong.

Edited August 20 by PublikDomain

[dwqrf]

il y a une heure, PublikDomain a dit :

Are you actually saying the endgame content we already have is good ?

[PublikDomain]

16 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Are you actually saying the endgame content we already have is good ?

I'm not sure where you're getting that? Where have I said that? You asked which content DE makes that "brings nothing to the table except challenge". I answered you. DE has created all sorts of content meant to be a challenge that according to some "bring nothing to the table but challenge" and they make this kind of content all the time. Would you also like my opinion of whether it's good or not? Then you should ask.

Edited August 20 by PublikDomain

[MrInubis]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

A TTK like the one already about what we've got in EDA is a great baseline. That's like what, 1-2s for basic units and 4-6s+ for bigger guys?

But the general consensus here is that EDA is bad because it has limitations. If i get valkyr or baruuk there i one shot everything. So what ttk are you talking about? I dont have ttk i have kills/s. So you want a game to be 1 kill per x seconds when its x kills/s currently. Thats what i mean that you want to make a game into something it isn't.

Edited August 20 by kuciol

[dwqrf]

il y a 17 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

I'm not sure where you're getting that? Where have I said that? You asked which content DE makes that "brings nothing to the table except challenge". I answered you. DE has created all sorts of content meant to be a challenge that according to some "bring nothing to the table but challenge" and they make this kind of content all the time. Would you also like my opinion of whether it's good or not? Then you should ask.

All the content you quote bring lood, drops, cosmetics, and such.

The first content which was supposed to be "challenge only" was the first iteration of SP; but, as you know, they changed it as a baseline as they added more drops, loots, and such, because if they didn't, nobody played it.

[dwqrf]

Il y a 2 heures, 4thBro a dit :

Maybe I just need to drop this conversation

Il y a 2 heures, 4thBro a dit :

They are missing out on a lot of money just from me alone, lol.

Please, nobody will miss you ! We waited to long for you to add you ideas to the conversation, but it was another useless me post again ! I wonder how we will survive without your input.

[PublikDomain]

2 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

All the content you quote bring lood, drops, cosmetics, and such.

The first content which was supposed to be "challenge only" was the first iteration of SP; but, as you know, they changed it as a baseline as they added more drops, loots, and such, because if they didn't, nobody played it.

I'm not sure what the rewards have to do with it? Challenging content can have rewards too. EDA does. Archon Hunts do. 🤷‍♀️

5 minutes ago, kuciol said:

But the general consensus here is that EDA is bad because it has limitations. If i get valkyr or baruuk there i one shot everything. So what ttk are you talking about? I dont have ttk i have kills/s. So you want a game to be 1 kill per x seconds when its x kills/s currently. Thats what i mean that you want to make a game into something it isn't.

What do the gear limitations have to do with it? You asked for a baseline power level. For a challenge, right? And I told you: something like the one we already have in EDA. It's literally what the game already is, what you mean "something it isn't"? What did I play Sunday night then?

[MrInubis]

2 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Openly telling people to ignore the guy that you have no good response to is pretty surreal.

You had plenty of responses in like what? 6 different topics? Im just done talking to you, you are to full of yourself.

Just now, PublikDomain said:

I'm not sure what the rewards have to do with it? Challenging content can have rewards too. EDA does. Archon Hunts do. 🤷‍♀️

What do the gear limitations have to do with it? You asked for a baseline power level. For a challenge, right? And I told you: something like the one we already have in EDA. It's literally what the game already is, what you mean "something it isn't"? What did I play Sunday night then?

It is like that because it has limitations, when you bring whatever its not even hard. Try it.

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

It is like that because it has limitations, when you bring whatever its not even hard. Try it.

...? Right. So the power level when you actually do the tasks is what I'm talking about. That's the power level. Try it.

"But if I go to a completely different baseline the baseline is different".

Yes?

[dwqrf]

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I'm not sure what the rewards have to do with it?

Because most people advocating for a challenging endgame content struggle with this issue : If you add new challenging content, it may be too hard for a big part of community to engage with. If it exclude a lot of players, it doesn't bring any money to DE. So smartasses like 4thbro come along and say "but it doesn't need to have rewards in it". If you remove the rewards from the new challenging content, then most people won't play it regularly, and new players won't be interested into reaching it. So you know : solve that.

[PublikDomain]

11 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Because most people advocating for a challenging endgame content struggle with this issue : If you add new challenging content, it may be too hard for a big part of community to engage with. If it exclude a lot of players, it doesn't bring any money to DE. So smartasses like 4thbro come along and say "but it doesn't need to have rewards in it". If you remove the rewards from the new challenging content, then most people won't play it regularly, and new players won't be interested into reaching it. So you know : solve that.

Does EDA have this issue? Nope. All of its rewards can be earned elsewhere. Archon Hunt rewards can be earned elsewhere. Sortie rewards can be earned elsewhere. There are usually little trinkets like the 60-eyes Sumdali or the old Raid badges or other cosmetic things, but those tend to be one-off rewards that stop being rewards as soon as they're earned. And yet the content remains.

And believe it or not, I don't agree with everything 4th says. I feel that he says "but it doesn't need to have rewards in it" mainly because of the screeching from the people who feel entitled to every possible reward the game offers without having to put in the effort. "The content you want can't have rewards in it because then I won't get the rewards!!!" they say. So he says "well then it doesn't need rewards" and yet people still screech. We saw lots of that kind of screeching with EDA's rewards - and what happened? Nothing.

Rewards in endgame content are fine. If you want the rewards you can play the content. If you don't want to play the content, then don't play the content. You're not going to get the rewards, but that's fine. Play it once and leave like all the other one-off rewards you can already play once for and leave. So... solve what?

Edited August 20 by PublikDomain

[MrInubis]

28 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

...? Right. So the power level when you actually do the tasks is what I'm talking about. That's the power level. Try it.

"But if I go to a completely different baseline the baseline is different".

Yes?

So since you kinda missunderstood the question. Im not asking about TTK because thats irrelevant. When is asked about acceptable power level i asked about loadout. What should be baseline? Weapon platform Saryn with Phenmor and Glaive prime? Max investment Valkyr? or maybe Trinity with Vaykor Hek? Those are magnitudes of order different. So what loadout should be able to do this theoretical endgame?

Edited August 20 by kuciol

[dwqrf]

il y a 2 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

those tend to be one-off rewards that stop being rewards as soon as they're earned. And yet the content remains.

And do you think people run daily 60 eyes sp fragmented for the fun of it ? Do you do it ?
Do you think most of the people running EDA weekly are running at 37 for 50 Vosfor ? Most people I know run it at 34 because they don't need the extra Vosfor, and they already got the Sumdali ; and it allows them to get one item of their choice to make it much, much easier.
 

il y a 5 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

All of its rewards can be earned elsewhere.

It's not because the evergreen rewards have optional ways to be earned that EDA doesn't reward anything. Or Archon hunt. Or Sortie. People play those content for the rewards, not the challenge of it ; but it's better if it challenging as it gives more value to the rewards and more meaning for the time spent. Once they get the reward, they stop playing it for the day/week. Do you think people run EDA or Archon Hunt for hours every day of the week, for the fun of it ? Really ?
 

il y a 9 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

Rewards in endgame content are fine. If you want the rewards you can play the content. If you don't want to play the content, then don't play the content.

But people want rewards. That's giving them a reason to play. If there is rewards they can't get because the content is too hard, the screeching is going to be even louder.
 

il y a 11 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

I don't agree with everything 4th says.

I hope so because you seem rational.
 

il y a 11 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

 So... solve what?

Explain again why would the majority of the players would engage a really difficult content that doesn't reward anything.

[PublikDomain]

Just now, kuciol said:

So since you kinda missunderstood the question. Im not asking about TTK because thats irrelevant. When is asked about acceptable power level i asked about loadout. What should be baseline? Weapon platform Saryn with Phenmor and Glaive prime? Max investment Valkyr? or maybe Trinity with Vaykor Hek? Those are magnitudes of order different. So what loadout should be able to do this theoretical endgame?

What if I like Nyx and the Paracyst? Should I not be allowed to play just because I have the "wrong" loadout? Why should any content be based on a specific loadout when the whole game is about collecting stuff and making it your own? Meanwhile TTK is an objective measure of "how quickly I can defeat enemies" that's unaffected by DPS, builds, buffs, EHPs, enemy levels, etc. So, the answer to your question is: whatever loadout that achieves that kind of TTK. For me this week it was a loadout using the Tenet Spirex and the Vectis Prime. They didn't one-shot God, but they were still fun and I enjoyed myself for yet another week of EDA.

4 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

And do you think people run daily 60 eyes sp fragmented for the fun of it ?

6 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Do you think people run EDA or Archon Hunt for hours every day of the week, for the fun of it ? Really ?

Yes.

It's called intrinsic reward.

It really annoys me that Steve never archived his Steve streams because I can't link back to them, but this is something he talked about around the time of Railjack. It's the idea that some content can be rewarding because you're essentially paid to do the content with items or XP or tokens or whatever (that's extrinsic reward), but content can also be rewarding in and of itself. The very act of doing the content can be the reward for doing the content, because doing the content is so rewarding and fulfilling all on its own. It's intrinsically rewarding. It's how I feel when I get an ace in War Thunder, or when I do an Eidolon Hunt and get into a good groove, or when I play the Cascade game mode. Some things are rewarding simply because they're fun.

So of course there are people who enjoy 60 eyes and EDA and Archon Hunts and whatever who play it over and over. There are also people who care about leaderboards and enjoy Conclave too even though there's no reward in it for them. It's how I feel about EDA: I play it because I like it. I've got more Shards than I know what to do with and I've already got my Arcanes, but I still do my mission every Sunday because it's fun.

3 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Do you think most of the people running EDA weekly are running at 37 for 50 Vosfor ? Most people I know run it at 34 because they don't need the extra Vosfor, and they already got the Sumdali ; and it allows them to get one item of their choice to make it much, much easier.

So? It's a mode that lets you trade rewards for power. So some people trade some of their rewards for that power. It's a part of the mode. 🤷‍♀️

7 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

If there is rewards they can't get because the content is too hard, the screeching is going to be even louder.

So they can screech. Did it work for EDA's rewards? No? People will screech about romance options and having to play Arthur, too. Has that stopped DE? No? So let them screech.

7 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Explain again why would the majority of the players would engage a really difficult content that doesn't reward anything.

But it can reward things? It should reward things. Gameplay should be rewarding. Like I told you, I don't agree with 4th on this. I think I understand why he says it but I don't agree. You'd have to ask him this question, and there's probably already an explanation in his posts somewhere.

[4thBro]

4 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

But it can reward things? It should reward things. Gameplay should be rewarding. Like I told you, I don't agree with 4th on this. I think I understand why he says it but I don't agree. You'd have to ask him this question, and there's probably already an explanation in his posts somewhere

You are correct in the reason that I say it. And also correct in assuming that I myself have explained it already.

"No rewards" was never a part of my ideas. I simply never thought about the reward aspect at all. And so, when somebody kicked and screamed about not being able to get the rewards for an endgame, I said, "Who cares, no rewards, then. Stop making up reasons to not want an endgame."

 

So, naturally, they cling to that one time that I said "no rewards." Just like they've clung to countless other red herrings.

 

 

 

 

*goes back to the popcorn*

[MrInubis]

17 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

What if I like Nyx and the Paracyst? Should I not be allowed to play just because I have the "wrong" loadout? Why should any content be based on a specific loadout when the whole game is about collecting stuff and making it your own? Meanwhile TTK is an objective measure of "how quickly I can defeat enemies" that's unaffected by DPS, builds, buffs, EHPs, enemy levels, etc. So, the answer to your question is: whatever loadout that achieves that kind of TTK. For me this week it was a loadout using the Tenet Spirex and the Vectis Prime. They didn't one-shot God, but they were still fun and I enjoyed myself for yet another week of EDA.

Thats like my point? How the hell can you balance game mode to be of any challange when loadouts are so vastly different? TTK is just as stupid as dps measuring in this case. Chroma will have different TTK than Nyx using same weapons just because how he is. If you make it challenging for top 5 frames than bottom 10 will get borderline unplayable. If you balance it around middle than meta gear will breeze through. Same goes for weapons. Thats what i mean when i say Warframe cannot have challenging content.

Edited August 20 by kuciol

[HoustonDragon]

On 2024-08-02 at 3:04 PM, Kaiga said:

There is no threat to the survival of the player, no reason to even remember what the enemies do or even look like, as they're obliterated in seconds by nukes.

Why do any of that cool space ninja stuff from the ad when you can just shoot a rocket launcher at everything?

If this game had even a modicum of difficulty at higher levels, it would be capable of all that combat depth, which is what's being advertised, obviousl

When you're fully modded and rocking upgraded weapons, sure. For new players, absolutely not

 

Plus, there are other modes to run like Elite Arch to help push against stronger enemies and rewards. Or maybe change up your Warframe play style and try other combos

[dwqrf]

il y a 37 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

The very act of doing the content can be the reward for doing the content, because doing the content is so rewarding and fulfilling all on its own. It's intrinsically rewarding.

And most people do it once only, for the reward of having done it.

il y a 37 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

It's how I feel about EDA: I play it because I like it. I've got more Shards than I know what to do with and I've already got my Arcanes, but I still do my mission every Sunday because it's fun.

Yes, you do it once, every week. Not twice. Once. Because it makes sense to do it once, and once only, for the reward and the challenge of it. To have done it.
 

il y a 37 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

So? It's a mode that lets you trade rewards for power. So some people trade some of their rewards for that power. It's a part of the mode. 🤷‍♀️

When rewards become irrelevant, people will generally choose to make it easier ; if possible.

il y a 37 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

So they can screech. Did it work for EDA's rewards? No?

Yes, EDA was nerfed to be easier.
 

il y a 37 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

 It should reward things. Gameplay should be rewarding.

So how do we make a really difficult endgame with important rewards, without frustrating a lot of people ?



 

 

il y a 29 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

You are correct in the reason that I say it. And also correct in assuming that I myself have explained it already.

"No rewards" was never a part of my ideas. I simply never thought about the reward aspect at all. And so, when somebody kicked and screamed about not being able to get the rewards for an endgame, I said, "Who cares, no rewards, then. Stop making up reasons to not want an endgame."

So, naturally, they cling to that one time that I said "no rewards." Just like they've clung to countless other red herrings.

*goes back to the popcorn*

Ho look another shallow me post from fallacy man bringing nothing to the conversation ! "No rewards" was never part of my idea. Which idea was it again ?

Edited August 20 by dwqrf