Why does Gloom have 95% Slowdown?

[vixenpixel]

7 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

... yeah, I won't deny I have a certain "style" of typing.
It's a mix of "Saffron Sass", "Pocket Watch of Lost Patience" and a few drops of "Soul of Tired Babysitter".
All haphazardly thrown into a rusty cauldron with no sense of self-preservation...
Enough time spent with what-feels-like-the-insane will do that to you though.

"Possessed" is certainly a new descriptor for me though, but not an unexpected one.
Otherwise, I'm not entirely sure how to exactly address that. "Be less possessed" and "Crazy professor" doesn't exactly give much to go off of.
It's certainly a vivid image, but how would one go about not doing that? Can't just flip a magic lever and suddenly everything makes sense.
^{It would be far easier if I could though. Not just for me either.}

Well I honestly love your writing. Occasionally prosaic while generally keeping a succinct, easily understood descriptiveness. It's actually quite impressive even as it in my eccentric professor metaphor possibly could pass for rambling (but like not all the time)...

I don't know how to go about flipping the magic lever though.. Hmm... Maybe just do the whole Deep Breath technique and Wait til next day to revisit the thread or Let's pretend these simpletons are scholars with a poor vocabulary whom I don't want to offend due to a study I'm publishing which they are reviewing? 

You could also just skip certain things. You don't need to reply to everything. It's the ultimate position to take in any situation. I don't mean deflecting. I mean you can just skip it if it bothers you. 

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Trick is: while I've heard people say the "Slow pairs well with the stun from Silence"?
I find it only amplifies the issue since the stun only happens on the edge of Silence's range.

 

I think the stun has a longer duration because of the slow, that's why.

 

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If you can't directly fire at the target because it's behind too much terrain?
You may as well not bother. It becomes redundant as you can stun all you like-- but it's still alive.
^{Would it not be better to have something to shoot at during an Interception... rather than wait for targets that never show up?}

Oh you would hate my Rango loadout (range-rhino = rango). It's basically max efficiency max range rhino with dispensary stomping infinitely while camping middle of interception. On some maps you just lock down entire map but they removed the slow on eximus units so now I don't bother anymore. It was really funny to use though. But now that I think about it this might be a prime example of disruptive ability use and those pub games I used it in may have made people quite annoyed. Nobody said anything though. An entire build completely made for one purpose, to lock down an entire map wide area. 70m radius 97% slow. Ehum, yeah maybe I shouldn't have mentioned this in this particular thread. XD

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Back a while ago, I opted to replace Gloom with Elemental Ward or Total Eclipse. Both of which effect his Shadow.
My problems with the Shadow wasn't the lack of potency, but rather that everything felt like it lacked impact.
Like you were just flinging wet noodles.
Otherwise, it was cool to swap between different kinds of builds on the fly.

 

Very astute description. Putting words on the meh feeling I get using the claws. I even smacked a couple of umbra formas on him but it doesn't really help that much. You can't really prime for the claws to do big damage, there's no melee arcane flair to it. You can use tennokai but the heavy attack is a little underwhelming in it's animation too. I do like the pull but both the other ones feel a little bad. One of my gripes with it is that if you want the benefits of seva's reap (the ghost on his first ability) you have to swap between them quite often. 

Anyway. I'd love to be your friend Binket, I think you've been very forthcoming with me in spite of me calling you a madman and your writing is nice as well. A little mad can be fun anyway... Just don't go completely bonkers again. :)

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... and I do account for that, but I could also argue it's the Dante situation too.
Overtuned at first, without a doubt. Got a slap on the wrist in the form of a minor nerf.
Players argued it was "too early for a nerf" and how it made him "unplayable".
Now he's more overtuned than when he started.

Im sorry im taking your reply apart like this and replying in a weird order. I'm a little peculiar myself I guess. On the topic of Dante, I feel like it's one of the most boring buffs I've ever seen, where he just puts copious amounts of overguard on his entire squad. I would much rather have his 4 ignore LoS than his 2-2-4 make any challenge in the game irrelevant for an entire squad. It's gotten to the point that I had to start telling my friend not to pick Dante for EDA or use his Dante spectre too for that matter. 

[Binket_]

31 minutes ago, GPrime96 said:

Gloom got hardly any use since his 1 & 2 do most of the job for him and when i’m in situations where i could use Gloom

Oh yeah, I'll admit-- that completely slipped my mind. I'm so used to those anyway.
Not only do they work extremely well on their own? They also contribute to his 4's gauge.

Since they do so much damage as well, it feels kinda redundant to use Gloom with it.
Good eye, completely missed that.

 

23 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

Well I honestly love your writing.

You could also just skip certain things. You don't need to reply to everything. It's the ultimate position to take in any situation. I don't mean deflecting. I mean you can just skip it if it bothers you.

I'm at least glad that- despite differences- it's still enjoyable.

True that I can skip things. I do occasionally when I have nothing to add it to it.
^{Or it adds nothing of value itself, usually the former though. The latter tends to be a single sentence long.}
... but if I only replied strictly to the things I agree with? It'd be cherry picking.

That and despite my better judgement? I do try to instill some degree of conversation.
The world has plenty of "gray zones" after all, I'm just only one person so filtering can be exhausting at times.
I choose to do it because it's something that needs to be seen more often. Otherwise the burden becomes too great for those that inevitably must.

27 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

I think the stun has a longer duration because of the slow, that's why.

That's precisely what I meant. The stun has a longer duration, yes.
It's more to be "How" the stun operates.
If you're running long-range Gloom? Silence will cause these enemies to snag even more thanks to it's stun.
If you're running short-range Gloom? Well, firstly Banshee doesn't exactly do well with that... second off you'd better off using something like 

35 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

this might be a prime example of disruptive ability use and those pub games I used it in may have made people quite annoyed. Nobody said anything though.

I'd like to refer back to when I said "People don't use chat as much as they used to".
This "Nobody said anything" isn't your fault specifically, but it's something that drives me NUTS.

I've come from a long time ago with players openly mentioning if there's a problem... but ever since crossplay?
It's been increasingly difficult to get a peep out of them.

This also makes it really difficult to get any discussion about balance because many players will automatically default to "But I haven't heard any complaints!"
... because most times? Nobody mentions it, even if they wanted to.

 

I point this out for the purpose of addressing issues in this topic as a whole.

46 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

On the topic of Dante, I feel like it's one of the most boring buffs I've ever seen, where he just puts copious amounts of overguard on his entire squad.

I find the abundance of Overguard to be one facet of the issue.
It's that it applies massive "Regen" of that Overguard by getting kills, something of which can allow _(almost) every Warframe to double Shield-Gate.

Frankly, the both of those aspects would be fine if Overguard didn't have some form of I-Frames after it depletes.
It would've been perfectly on Kullervo, but that's justified due to his lack of Shields and survivability mechanic ala Nidus or Inaros.
In a sense, that Overguard becomes his survivability gimmick.

In a similar sense to Gloom? It's often something you can't opt out of.
Unlike Gloom however, Dante's Overguard is a different angle of problematic.
It puts all of it's egg in the basket of "Now we're so invincible, we don't need to try at all."

I've used to say it a lot before, but it's still relevant of a quote:
"Extreme power needs to come at a cost. If you can summon cataclysms and untold destruction as your starter spell?
There's not much further up you can go before everything sounds equally mundane."

[vixenpixel]

11 hours ago, Binket_ said:

This also makes it really difficult to get any discussion about balance because many players will automatically default to "But I haven't heard any complaints!"
... because most times? Nobody mentions it, even if they wanted to.

In my opinion, you can't second guess people's opinions like that when it comes to something like this. If someone specifically dislikes that I'm making the game easier by doing a very niche stomp build on Rhino that barely anybody ever saw before, then I expect them to tell me not to do it. It is never my responsibility to mind-read them and then conform my actions to the supposition that they are so frustrated by this that it ruined their day in spite of it being a ten minute mission. It comes down to them telling me. The stomp build was making the mission very trivial. Boring yes, but also a snooze for difficulty. So I will never apologise for my silly Rango. But... If I had been always using this guy, I would tend to agree. The thing is I brought him for 2-3 archon missions. I thought he was annoying to play and the only entertainment I garnered was giggle-worth. :D

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I point this out for the purpose of addressing issues in this topic as a whole.

I find the abundance of Overguard to be one facet of the issue.
It's that it applies massive "Regen" of that Overguard by getting kills, something of which can allow _(almost) every Warframe to double Shield-Gate.

Frankly, the both of those aspects would be fine if Overguard didn't have some form of I-Frames after it depletes.
It would've been perfectly on Kullervo, but that's justified due to his lack of Shields and survivability mechanic ala Nidus or Inaros.
In a sense, that Overguard becomes his survivability gimmick.

In a similar sense to Gloom? It's often something you can't opt out of.
Unlike Gloom however, Dante's Overguard is a different angle of problematic.
It puts all of it's egg in the basket of "Now we're so invincible, we don't need to try at all."

I've used to say it a lot before, but it's still relevant of a quote:
"Extreme power needs to come at a cost. If you can summon cataclysms and untold destruction as your starter spell?
There's not much further up you can go before everything sounds equally mundane."

Totally agree that overguard abundance is only part of the issue. Killing enemies to regain overguard is so friggin op that it's crazy. Having a no cooldown overguard regen combined with a 0.5 overguard-gate iframe moment is more op than mesmer skin in almost every circumstance. Overguard also provides status immunity. Look at that Qorvex guy running around with a third ability that provides a status immunity buff to team.... That guy looks at Dante and just slumps. Like. Poor Qorvex. An entire ability that just gives status immunity. What gives, DE? 

The overguard 0.5s iframe is important though like you say for Kullervo. Kullervo still has issues in 1k steel path because you cant recast his 2 fast enough. There is a delay on it, it's not spammable. But dante wouldn't have any issues there because his overguard mechanics are so ridiculously overtuned. Dante would be better if he was more selfish frame, not a buffer that buffs entire squad with better buffs than every frame in the game.

I think Gloom is far less impactful in trivializing content though.

Edited August 28 by vixenpixel

[Binket_]

12 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

If someone specifically dislikes that I'm making the game easier by doing a very niche stomp build on Rhino that barely anybody ever saw before, then I expect them to tell me not to do it.

Noticed how I highlighted a bit from ya in the reply.

I expect people to say it too, the problem is that... for some reason I simply cannot discern?
People don't do that. Sometimes they can type, they just choose.... not to.

While you are right that you can't possibly guess everything with perfect accuracy?
I often go by the line of thinking "If someone else used this kit and I couldn't do combat if some part of it is active, would I have a means around it?"
It's never 100% accurate either, but it does generally avoid situations where someone could find me getting in the way.
... it also just helps me build "contingencies" in case something gets disabled and helps practice being flexible.

It's a perspective thing, sure-- but it often very little to ask one's self that.

 

[T69xRiPx]

you know what? I could like a bit if the base range or base slow is a little bit lower, because I have a setup that I wanted the enemy to shoot me than not

[T69xRiPx]

On 2024-08-23 at 3:18 AM, quxier said:

Not sure about Rage & co as you shouldn't get hit to health

that's my setup with se agoth, health tanking dude with high str, though the high str I have, the less energy I gain because no enemy can shoot me, unless there's  a dude at the back of the corner sniping me for free energy

[T69xRiPx]

On 2024-08-23 at 7:03 AM, Flannoit said:

 

Maybe it's just one of the many, many, many things in warframe that "just works" 🤔

Nonetheless, the point still stands that Gloom nukes energy pools making it horribly ineffective on frames that don't have a powerful source of energy regen like Nekros or Garuda

I tried to make gloom for sevagoth work as intended, but needed him to health tank, problem is, the slow kinda ruins the setup (not entirely, I just need to stay little bit on endurance run to see the effect clearly, also needs enemies that deal more damage, probably at lvl 500 above)

[Flannoit]

On 2024-08-31 at 1:01 PM, T69xRiPx said:

I tried to make gloom for sevagoth work as intended, but needed him to health tank, problem is, the slow kinda ruins the setup (not entirely, I just need to stay little bit on endurance run to see the effect clearly, also needs enemies that deal more damage, probably at lvl 500 above)

Dispensary kind of just solves all of Sevagoth's problems, with the exception of if you actually care about using his Shadow. Even then, not having to stay within the bounds of Gloom also just means you can actually go out and do more without having to babysit your buff turret. Gloom is perfect for Garuda and Nekros, meh at best for Sevagoth.

[vFlitz]

18 minutes ago, Flannoit said:

Dispensary kind of just solves all of Sevagoth's problems, with the exception of if you actually care about using his Shadow. Even then, not having to stay within the bounds of Gloom also just means you can actually go out and do more without having to babysit your buff turret. Gloom is perfect for Garuda and Nekros, meh at best for Sevagoth.

I could have agreed with that a while ago, but Secondary Fortifier changed my mind. 15k Overguard with no DR from the arcane is not a huge number at higher levels, but Gloom's slow makes it a whole lot easier to sustain.

I can't overstate how good it feels to use on Sevagoth. Much less hassle than pure shield-gating approach, no need to worry about status procs from eximus effects, and free from the inevitable disappointment of trying to rely on health. Plus if you're not outright nuking then you get a crit chance buff and a damage vulnerability debuff on enemies, so you don't even miss not having a DPS arcane.

[Flannoit]

45 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

I could have agreed with that a while ago, but Secondary Fortifier changed my mind. 15k Overguard with no DR from the arcane is not a huge number at higher levels, but Gloom's slow makes it a whole lot easier to sustain.

I can't overstate how good it feels to use on Sevagoth. Much less hassle than pure shield-gating approach, no need to worry about status procs from eximus effects, and free from the inevitable disappointment of trying to rely on health. Plus if you're not outright nuking then you get a crit chance buff and a damage vulnerability debuff on enemies, so you don't even miss not having a DPS arcane.

Oh, I use Secondary Fortifier on my Sevagoth. Right now only my Grimoire is kitted to fit it currently, but it turns my Sev into a god against Murmur & Corpus (and to a lesser extent Grineer and Infested, it's not as immediately lethal since the resistance changes) and I'm trying to work out alternative tools for use against Grineer and Infested, though that'll be a tough cookie to crack with the only non-exalted grimoire being, well, Grimoire. de give us more books pls

I still severely rather have the energy to spare to nuke rooms than spend on Gloom which also makes room-nuking a bit harder thanks to the slow. To each their own, though!

EDIT: Also worth mentioning that Dispensary is busted with Grimoire since the ammo pickup fills half Grimoire's alt-fire instantly

Edited September 3 by Flannoit

[T69xRiPx]

6 hours ago, Flannoit said:

Dispensary kind of just solves all of Sevagoth's problems, with the exception of if you actually care about using his Shadow. Even then, not having to stay within the bounds of Gloom also just means you can actually go out and do more without having to babysit your buff turret. Gloom is perfect for Garuda and Nekros, meh at best for Sevagoth.

I actually use his shadow for shadow haze and I don't like being stationary for sevagoth (but I see why), hence making him a health tank build would use his gloom effectively for him, and that also solve my energy economy

Edited September 4 by T69xRiPx

[Flannoit]

On 2024-09-03 at 7:50 PM, T69xRiPx said:

I actually use his shadow for shadow haze and I don't like being stationary for sevagoth (but I see why), hence making him a health tank build would use his gloom effectively for him, and that also solve my energy economy

I use his 1 and 2 out of Sev mode, personally. I don't like how his abilities feel in Shadow mode... I do like how strong his augs make him, though. He's actually really, really powerful now compared to his release.

[T69xRiPx]

On 2024-09-10 at 2:42 AM, Flannoit said:

I use his 1 and 2 out of Sev mode, personally. I don't like how his abilities feel in Shadow mode... I do like how strong his augs make him, though. He's actually really, really powerful now compared to his release.

that's fair, I just find having shadow mode to change the pace when I got bored of shooting things, just to have some variety

not a fan os his 2nd ability nuke, but it is really damn good (bit boring imo)