Ash And Loki Are Getting Left Behind De

[DaveC]

Perhaps I weird, but I really like Ash...seems fine to me.

[someguy216]

@Nox-Lamina

The TL;DR

You seemed to have missed what my main concern was.

He's a stealth frame. (at least by description)

While his attacks are decent, he does not have any sort of stealth ability outside of smoke bomb. Take that away, and he's just another damage dealer.

And that's the problem. Smoke bomb is the only reason he can be considered stealth. He has no other attributes to that field.

Shuriken, Teleport and Blade Storm don't have innate silence or any sort of anti-detection aid. Once you use'em, you alert everyone in radius.

___________

 

He can hurt stuff like everyone else. Cool.

It does some hefty puncture damage, and that's great. It hits 2 targets at max, and with some fair-high damage.

 

But how does it hold up in stealth situations?

It doesn't. Once Shuriken is used, all enemies within earshot are alerted.

No innate silence to show Ash has something for stealth other than invisibility. Nothing to actually seperate him from his allies in the whole "Violence in Silence" category.

 

"Use smoke bomb!"

Which just adds to my point. His only stealth contribution is Smoke Bomb. He has nothing else to show he's stealthy.

You could carry a Shade with any other frame and perform specials in its cloak.

 

It's a decent ability, but it holds nothing to actually help in Stealth gameplay. Use it and everyone knows you're there.

 

 

In all the stealth playthroughs I've done, that stun SB gives has never shown purpose. (y'know, because I hide)

I don't see how Ash's invisibility is better than Loki's. Less time for safe traveling, less time for picking up allies undetected, less time for setting yourself up on unsuspecting prey. And, in the event of a melee frenzy, less time to inflict pain on targets that may be spread quite far.

Now, givin the open-combat scenario, his stun has still played very little purpose in my time. If I pop a smoke, I'm usually hiding behind cover of sorts already, so as to avoid health loss. I don't stand in the open and eat bullets while equipping it (lest a heavy knocked me down).

 

Now, given the "dumb" question you've asked; Having extra damage/invisibility doesn't make stealth gameplay viable/worth the effort. Not to mention, running around slaughtering everything with ease due to lolcantseeme isn't all that stealthy. Had the AI received some brains, they'd know to run/trigger the alert when they saw their comrades being chopped to bits by nothing. (I know I would have).

But of course, we don't play in something that has actual stealth mechanics. Warframe's stealth consists of, "If they didn't trigger the alarm, you're ninja!!!"

 

Ash having durability doesn't really help in Stealth situations either. If you're actually being stealthy, durability isn't a problem. Mobility and silent take downs are.

 

 

 

We agree to some extent here.

My thoughts on Teleport:

(Note: I still need to tweak this to fit 2.0 damage. But just keep the general idea in mind)

Teleport

Ash teleports 25/45/45/50 meters to an enemy target and strikes them, dealing 300/450/600/750 damage. Living targets recieve a 1/1/2/3 second stun. [innate Silence] [stun] [Effected by Power Strength and similar mods]

- Cast on unalerted enemies, Teleport deals Armor Piercing damage. Alert enemies recieve Blade damage.

 

- Upon teleporting behind his selected target, Ash draws the blades from his arms and strikes the enemy. A small, 1-2 second animation plays out (similar to those of Bladestorm).

 

- Successfully killing the target with Teleport will not alert any enemies.

 

- An unsuccessful attempt at killing the target will yield a 1/1/2/3 second stun, giving Ash the opportunity to perform a melee stealth attack (or use of silenced guns). [Not effected by mods] (target will be alert if still alive after stun recovery)

 

- Stunned enemy will have a colored lining, decided by the Energy Palette your Ash has on.

 

- An unsuccessful attempt on killing the target will alert enemies within a 10 meter radius on all mod levels. [Not effected by mods]

 

- Stun works on all armored units. Stealth Attack retains all current limits.

 

- Stealth attack does not apply to bosses. Stun does not effect heavy bosses. (Phorid, J3 Golem, Kela)

 

- Ash cannot teleport to Allies

 

- You do not gain the stealth attack opportunity on alert enemies, only stun.

 

Orignal Post

 

 

 

 

It does a poor job killing. It may hit high, but the execution time is far too long compared to his bretheren.

Let's add to the fact that, like Teleport and Shuriken, it has no stealth capability. Unless you've got the right mods + energy (may even need a Catalyst/Forma for costs), you can't take out X many targets in a room without giving notification of your presence.

 

It's a good panic button, and maybe Ash needs one in case his cover is blown. But that's all it is; A good panic button.

If you wanted to kill quickly, many other frames could do it faster. Hell, unless I'm fighting all MOA's, I can usually mow a room down faster with my Braton Prime than blade storm. (can't say the same verse a Molecular Prime)

*^ Am I the only one seeing that? Spoiler bug?*

 

My biggest concern for Ash is that he fails to meet his own standards for his field of expertise.

His only save for being a Stealth Warframe is Smoke Bomb. That's not enough. One ability shouldn't be what allows a frame to barely meet their role.

 

He does damage, and can do damage while invisible. I don't feel stealthy using him. I don't think "stealth" when I hear or read about Ash.

 

DE can simply change his description to "survivalist" instead of "stealthy." My arguments would be invalid, and we could all move on with life.

Personally, I want them to revamp stealth and tweak Ash to meet that field like he should.

However, I don't hold hopes that he'll be given more purpose in his supposed role anytime soon.

 

Glad someone agrees with me and has made some valid contribution to the discussion. But a large problem that appears with ash i've realised and im sure u have is not primarily ability balance as in, damage, energy costs but the fact DE still hasnt fixed the stealth system which they said they would work on but the only change ive seen since update 7 is a noise reduction mod and some silent weaponry like paris,dread, kunai. As soon as they implement more to stealth gameplay to the supposed "Ninja" game ash will always be lagging behind other warframes as well as other frames mildly stealth based like loki.

[ZT0100]

Ash needs a damage buff, that's all.

 

Shuriken should deal something like 1-2k damage per star or even more unmodded (not sure because I haven't played in void yet.) Blade Storm needs to deal like 5k or even more unmodded to make it worthwhile. 2k is way too low for such an epic but slow skill. I am better off equipping only smoke bomb(and maybe teleport) with things the way they are( guns outdamaging everything.) He's a damaging frame FFS. His specialty in killing should still be useful endgame.

 

If the solution is not to increase damage, then add some effects to his abilities to make him helpful. I mean you throw 2 shurikens and the enemies don't die, then now what? You take a long time to stab enemies in the faces and they don't die, then now what? You're screwed. Basically, make him viable for endgame, either through utility or strength.

 

EDIT: I just want to repost this great idea. Have Ash's blade storm confuse/distract the targetted enemies throughout the whole animation as they get stabbed in the face.

Edited December 13, 2013 by ZT0100

[Brimir]

What are you talking about?

 

They're the only melee 'frames in the game right now.

[Scar.Heart]

What are you talking about?

 

They're the only melee 'frames in the game right now.

Your avatar is of Valkyr, a melee-oriented warframe.

Wat.

[Brimir]

Your avatar is of Valkyr, a melee-oriented warframe.

Wat.

 

Valkyr isn't a melee Warframe.

 

Her ultimate freaking overwrites her melee weapon for crying out loud.

 

Ash and Loki (and to some extent Rhino) are the only true melee Warframes in the game.

[dezzmont]

A lot of people don't understand Ash in the same way they don't understand Excal or Volt.

 

His description is essentially a lie. Ash isn't a stealthy ninja prowling around.

 

Ash is one of the top 4 in your face tanks in the game, in league with Saryn, Rhino, and frost. He is one of the few frames who can actually get use out of Ironskin at an efficient level putting himself in tank tier, and to top it all off he has two invulnerability mechanics (Invisibility and Bladestorm) and the highest melee damage of the tanks. He is also fast, which good players realize is a form of both tank AND offense.

 

His current issues are major usability problems on teleport and bladestorm (Teleport is pretty much the worst mobility skill right now, even bounce has applications for gap crossing) and bladestorm's biggest advantage, it's duration, can become an issue if the situation changes after it is popped and you can't get out of your 15 second invulnerability which just happens to have damage attached to revive or protect the pod. His shuriken is also really lackluster, basically being a one shot tracking sniper rifle you have in your pocket with nothing really to distinguish it from a gun like other offensive powers do (Necros has an armor reducer, Volt has a chain stun, so on).

 

This makes him seem old and busted compared to some newer frames or frames who benefited greatly from D2.0 (Hi volt!) because in most scenarios he only ever uses one ability. Mechanically he is on point, with fantastic durability and survivability that will ensure not only your the last person standing on the team even compared to the rhino of all people, but you can get everyone up without taking a hit.

 

His teleport basically needs to be free target. The thing basically is hardly as fast as running with Ash's natural speed and would be pretty situational even WITH free targeting. That or it needs to get the smokebomb aoe stun effect to tie into Ash's smoke elemental theme and highlight his agro-stealth-tank nature. Shuriken either needs to be removed turned into something other than an undermounted sniper rifle, especially because we now have actual throwing stars, or needs to be given a viable end game mechanic attached to it and reduced in damage, because we see time and time again abilities do not compete well with firearms.

 

Loki is also in a really good place. Switch teleport has some fantastic utility, and decoy is one of the best CCs in the game. His high speed and energy pool allow him to stay safely cloaked for most fights and reducing the overall threat level to his team at the cost of having a really vulnerable support team member.

[Scar.Heart]

A lot of people don't understand Ash in the same way they don't understand Excal or Volt.

 

His description is essentially a lie. Ash isn't a stealthy ninja prowling around.

 

Ash is one of the top 4 in your face tanks in the game, in league with Saryn, Rhino, and frost. He is one of the few frames who can actually get use out of Ironskin at an efficient level putting himself in tank tier, and to top it all off he has two invulnerability mechanics (Invisibility and Bladestorm) and the highest melee damage of the tanks. He is also fast, which good players realize is a form of both tank AND offense.

 

Then, referring to a part of one of my previous posts in this thread, I would like them to change his description from "ninja" to "survivalist." Or something of the sort.

 

I can move on with life, knowing stealth gameplay and frames will never exist/be viable, and won't have to cringe when people say he's fine.

 

 

 

Valkyr isn't a melee Warframe.

 

Her ultimate freaking overwrites her melee weapon for crying out loud.

 

Ash and Loki (and to some extent Rhino) are the only true melee Warframes in the game.

    Energy: 75 Power #: 2 Valkyr cries out fiercely, rallying her allies and intimidating her foes. Equip Cost:

 

• Costs 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 or 2 / 3 / 3 / 4 mod slots, rounded up.
• Lasts 7 / 10 / 12 / 15 seconds per cast. This is affected by Power Duration mods.
• Buffs teammates' melee attack speed by 15% / 20% / 25% / 50% and armor by 25% / 35% / 45% / 50% while debuffing enemy speed by 15% / 20% / 25% / 30% . All multipliers are affected by Power Strength mods.
• Has range of 15 / 20 / 22 / 25 in-game meters. This is affected by Power Range mods.

_____________

Not to mention paralysis allows her to use finisher strikes with melee on paralyzed enemies. (Not to mention that enemies are close ranged to be hit by this skill, giving her melee some use).

_

While Hysteria removes her equipped melee weapon, she is technically (and literally) engaging in hand-to-hand combat.

I would imagine that'd be considered melee, although I've been wrong about this type of thing before.

Edited December 13, 2013 by MagnusFury

[Brimir]

It is not actual melee in the sense that it doesn't utilize a melee weapon.

 

It just gives you the illusion of melee. It is more of a "Oh shi-!" panic button because of the invincibility it provides. I really wish they had stuck with the original proposed idea: having Hysteria simply enhance your equipped melee weapon.

 

But I digress. I don't want to derail the thread further.

[someguy216]

Yes changing ash's description to survivalist would fit his current situation but that would make him a very unappealing warframe, it would just make him sound like a slightly faster rhino with alot less crowd control. A "ninja" stealth frame is something that sought of has to be included in this game as it is very appealing to players like me who are playing a space ninja game, which aside from this balance issue ive raised is @(*()$ good.

 

This problem is also painfully easy to fix:

1. Increase damage or reduce energy cost of shruken, also make it 100% silent (but still alerting enemies if they see a friendly getting impaled)

2. Increase effectivness of stun from smoke bomb, so as to making it more into a unique ability not what it is now which is a less useful loki invisibility.

3. Fix teleport in general and either add damage or reduce energy cost.

4. Add extra effect of bladestorm on cast, darkens the entire area shrouding the area in a fog isolating all enemies in the area for enemies drastically reducing enemies visibility as ash performs his ult, also increasing bladestorms damage so that it will kill almost all basic enemies other than super high levels.

 

As mentioned by others his base stats are very good for his role, tough and high mobility but his abilities need tweaking.

Edited December 13, 2013 by someguy216

[Half-Hero]

I totally agree with ZT0100.

I've been using Ash for a long time.(I basically blasted through missions to farm him with my Loki). Now i'm lvl 30 potatoed nicely modded Ash(not the best modded).

 

When i throw a shuriken i don't want to take out <50% of enemy's health. I want to see it OBLITERATE the enemy and strike fear into others. It was fine when i was lvling up, but now it's very bad.

 

Just like ZT0100 said, Ash is really bad for endgame. If we can't buff shuriken's damage maybe make the keep hitting enemies. So they just cut one then go for the other until it hits the limit. That way you can throw it into a crowd and expect them to weaken the enemies.

 

The blade storm could use a nice damage buff and a better animation/visuals and it should be faster. I'd like to see him do fancy slides etc while bladestorming as opposed to just jumping on the enemy and stabbing him. But that's just my preference.

 

The teleport is better now since it stuns the target. I totally agree that it should be free aim but if it's not possible then perhaps something like AoE stunt or a knockdown would be nice.

 

Smoke bomb is fine right now. It's a panic button/Melee buff button.

 

This is all my opinion so feel free to disagree.

[Divinehero]

Ash's ultimate is a problem; sure, you don't want to do away with the animation that plays while you jump from one target to another... but you don't want to be stuck for 15 seconds in an elaborate cutscene either.

 

One way to fix it would be to reduce the number of instances that you get to see that 'cutscene' and a viable one would be for Ash to create Smoke Clones when using his 4th ability above rank 1. Basically this :

 

Bladestorm Rank 0 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- A total of 3-4 enemies are dealt damage

 

Bladestorm Rank 1 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- 1 Smoke Clone jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing the same damage as Ash

- A total of 6-8 enemies are dealt damage

 

Bladestorm Rank 2 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- 2 Smoke Clones jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing the same damage as Ash

- A total of 9-12 enemies are dealt damage

 

Bladestorm Rank 3 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- 3 Smoke Clone jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing the same damage as Ash

- A total of 12-16 enemies are dealt damage

 

This way, no matter the rank of Bladestorm, you have, at most, 3 to 4 'cuts' during Ash's 4th ability while dealing with as many enemies as he would now. From the player's perspective, he gets 3 to 4 cuts using his animations; from an ally perspective, 12 to enemies gets taken down by Ash and 3 Smoke Clones taking down 3-4 enemies at once, 4 times. Ash's 4th is now reduced to 3-4 seconds top.

 

that would be amazing

[olipops]

have mercy on my ash :(

 

Looking cool > everything else...

[Baigan]

have mercy on my ash :(

 

Looking cool > everything else...

 We are trying to BUFF ash, not nerf it >:I

 

Also, Loki with swindle > Ash with any helmet, just saying...

[fatpig84]

Loki has the best looking helmets...

Even that hammerhead one.

[Archwizard]

Here's what I have to question:

 

Elemental frames can complain about elemental damage overspecialization with the constant changes to Damage 2.0.

Frames like Nyx and Nekros can complain about AI deterioration taking a peg down with the addition of Invasions.

One-trick pony frames like Banshee (and Frost, and Nekros) can complain about having being relegated to back-line buff duty.

 

What do Ash and Loki have to complain about, by comparison?

Not having to worry about damage scaling for half of their skills? Having abilities that work precisely as intended? Having a reason to push more than one button (granting YMMV)?

I can understand commentary like "they're good, but they could be better" (like having Ash's Teleport be free-aiming or making Bladestorm faster or giving Radial Disarm more effect against Infested), or even addressing new concerns (like Decoy HP scaling in the new damage environment that's affecting everyone)- but not this bland "they're unbalanced because they don't focus on damage" and "everyone else is moving forward" slop.

 

Your first problem is that you're comparing Loki to Rhino- that's apples and oranges, mein freund.

 

I'll grant I can't speak for Ash, but Loki's fine thanks.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Archwizard

[s4itox]

Loki's fine as is, to be honest. His decoy could use a slight HP buff, but realistically speaking you should be placing his decoy in a place that the enemies can't reach/shoot properly anyway (or is properly obscured by cover), so that's really a moot point. Switch Teleport could do with some accuracy fine-tuning (for god's sake let me teleport, the target is /not/ obstructed), Radial Disarm could maybe do with a tweak against Infested, but he's hardly a broken frame.

 

The problem with Ash is that he doesn't really excel at anything. He's a great all-rounder frame, sure, but the matter of fact is that for what Ash can do, there's another frame that can do it better (Valkyr aside, but Valkyr's a new frame and we're pretty much still learning her / kinks are being worked out, so that's moot too). He doesn't really specialise in anything, and in situations where specialists are required, there's just no real reason to pick him. Cool factor aside, Ash just sort of... is, and that's not really a selling point for a frame. He's a survivalist, but he's not the stealth-melee frame he was advertised as.
His skills could definitely do with tweaks, especially Blade Storm. The damage is fine, but the duration is just ridiculous - I like the clone idea that's been brought up though, so maybe you could have him clap his hands together, summon 3 clones and have them zip off, and then Ash joins in the fray himself? Allows 3-4 camera shots, cuts down time used massively, and still lets him attack 12-16 targets.

[Fumblewatt]

Loki has the best looking helmets...

Even that hammerhead one.

Vaubans Gambit hat > all

Loki is fine.

Make Ash smoke bomb a group stealth, replace his teleport with something else and rework blade storm as mentioned in this thread, that would make him more appealing and separate him from Loki even further.

[Artoah]

Ash's ultimate is a problem; sure, you don't want to do away with the animation that plays while you jump from one target to another... but you don't want to be stuck for 15 seconds in an elaborate cutscene either.

 

One way to fix it would be to reduce the number of instances that you get to see that 'cutscene' and a viable one would be for Ash to create Smoke Clones when using his 4th ability above rank 1. Basically this :

 

Bladestorm Rank 0 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- A total of 3-4 enemies are dealt damage

 

Bladestorm Rank 1 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- 1 Smoke Clone jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing the same damage as Ash

- A total of 6-8 enemies are dealt damage

 

Bladestorm Rank 2 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- 2 Smoke Clones jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing the same damage as Ash

- A total of 9-12 enemies are dealt damage

 

Bladestorm Rank 3 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- 3 Smoke Clone jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing the same damage as Ash

- A total of 12-16 enemies are dealt damage

 

This way, no matter the rank of Bladestorm, you have, at most, 3 to 4 'cuts' during Ash's 4th ability while dealing with as many enemies as he would now. From the player's perspective, he gets 3 to 4 cuts using his animations; from an ally perspective, 12 to enemies gets taken down by Ash and 3 Smoke Clones taking down 3-4 enemies at once, 4 times. Ash's 4th is now reduced to 3-4 seconds top.

This. 100 times this.

[SpectreWolfe]

Ash's ultimate is a problem; sure, you don't want to do away with the animation that plays while you jump from one target to another... but you don't want to be stuck for 15 seconds in an elaborate cutscene either.

 

One way to fix it would be to reduce the number of instances that you get to see that 'cutscene' and a viable one would be for Ash to create Smoke Clones when using his 4th ability above rank 1. Basically this :

 

Bladestorm Rank 0 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- A total of 3-4 enemies are dealt damage

 

Bladestorm Rank 1 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- 1 Smoke Clone jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing the same damage as Ash

- A total of 6-8 enemies are dealt damage

 

Bladestorm Rank 2 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- 2 Smoke Clones jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing the same damage as Ash

- A total of 9-12 enemies are dealt damage

 

Bladestorm Rank 3 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- 3 Smoke Clone jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing the same damage as Ash

- A total of 12-16 enemies are dealt damage

 

This way, no matter the rank of Bladestorm, you have, at most, 3 to 4 'cuts' during Ash's 4th ability while dealing with as many enemies as he would now. From the player's perspective, he gets 3 to 4 cuts using his animations; from an ally perspective, 12 to enemies gets taken down by Ash and 3 Smoke Clones taking down 3-4 enemies at once, 4 times. Ash's 4th is now reduced to 3-4 seconds top.

 

Sweet Man. This Ash framer thanks you for your suggestion. It's PERFECT

[Phoenix86]

Ash may not be in a good spot, but Loki is great (and this is told by someone who doesnt like Loki lol)

[Onae]

Loki is better then every other warframe with invisibility alone

[Keltik0ne]

Dear god, Ash and Loki are MILES better than Valykr, Nekros or Oberon (King of the Fairies).

 

Well, in skills that is, the new 3 are better on looks.

 

Edit - I do like Wiegraf's suggestion for Ash though, nice idea.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Keltik0ne

[Othergrunty]

Loki is pretty much the frame i don't want to touch again... EVER!!!

 

They fixed the issue of him not cloaking his Sentinel with invisibility (didn't even mentiod in the patchnotes of the patch that did it) and that's the only thing that really bothered me.

 

All his abilities are working okay and i can depend on them (mainly because they don't deal damage which makes them immune to damage system changes).

 

So no Loki can be left behind where he has a good time.

[NIL0S]

The whole stealth mechanic is crap. Pardon the french. So frames (supposedly) centered around that mechanic will only follow suite.