Soma Vs Synapse

[.solitus]

Alright alright..

I know the Synapse have a higher DPS than the Soma when both of them are fully modded.

But how bad is the range on Synapse? I usually like to "snipe" enemies from afar with my Soma. Although it has a Heavy Caliber mod there it is still pretty damn accurate. Especially in Kiste, Kappa, Mobile Defense, and Survival missions. I like to sit back and eliminate enemies from medium to long range. What I like about the Soma is that it has no damage fall off and has a long range.

Can I do that with the Synapse? Or must I try to get close with the enemy? And how much better is the Synapse DPS compared to the Soma DPS?

[LazyKnight]

Sorry for the double post.

Because of the 11.6 changes: The synapse is no longer even worth looking at. Continuous-fire weapons now no longer deal damage or proc except for then the summed damage is displayed which has been slowed down to ~1 per second. I hope this is a bug, but it's probably intended...

Well, I guess this officially makes all clan tech weapons worse than market place equipment. Still, the damage synapse can do still warrants keeping it.

Edited January 9, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

Well, I guess this officially makes all clan tech weapons worse than market place equipment. Still, the damage synapse can do still warrants keeping it.

 

Quoted for truth.

 

You like the Acrid?  Stug incoming.

 

You like the Ichors?  well too bad... they suck.

 

Torid?  Bugged and not being fixed.  Enjoy.

 

Ogris?  Eat Penta.  Far, far cheaper, and not even clan tech, while boasting better dps and vastly improved controllability.

 

Flux?  Why would you use that when Soma is so much better and so much easier to get?

 

OH S#&$ THE SYNAPSE IS OWNING THE SOMA WHICH IS FAR, FAR EASIER AND LITERALLY SEVERAL TIMES OVER FASTER AND CHEAPER TO OBTAIN?  Nerf that S#&$ in every single dimension to bring it in line with the Soma.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Vitalis_Inamorta

[GottFaust]

Quoted for truth.

 

You like the Acrid?  Stug incoming.

 

You like the Ichors?  well too bad... they suck.

 

Torid?  Bugged and not being fixed.  Enjoy.

 

Ogris?  Eat Penta.  Far, far cheaper, and not even clan tech, while boasting better dps and vastly improved controllability.

 

Flux?  Why would you use that when Soma is so much better and so much easier to get?

 

OH S#&$ THE SYNAPSE IS OWNING THE SOMA WHICH IS FAR, FAR EASIER TO OBTAIN?  Nerf that S#&$ in every single dimension to bring it in line with the Soma.

It still out-DPS's the Soma, but its true strength was the fact that it had such good DPS and was also able to chain-proc viral stacks... You're stuck with shotguns or the Grakata if you want to rock viral stacking now.

[TheWargiCorgi]

Your damage numbers are off.  Here's some mathematical proof:

Synapse (optimum-build with Viral):

• Serration
• Split Chamber
• Heavy Caliber (The Synapse is still extremely accurate even with a max rank Heavy Caliber)
• Hammer Shot
• Vital Sense
• Point Strike
• Cryo Rounds
• Infected Clip

Raw Damage Per Second :: 22279.235

Damage Per Second to Armor :: 22279.235

Damage Per Second to Flesh :: 29440.417

Damage Per Second to Robotic :: 26257.67

Damage Per Second to Shields :: 22279.235

Damage Per Second to Corpus :: 22279.235

Damage Per Second to Grineer :: 22279.235

Damage Per Second to Infested :: 15118.052

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Heavy Gunner :: 1.039 seconds

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Toxic Ancient :: 0.499 seconds

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Corpus Tech :: 1.719 seconds

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Fusion Moa :: 1.379 seconds

Full Printout:

Name :: Synapse

Magazine Size :: 100

Total Ammo :: 640

Crit Chance :: 125%

Crit Damage Multiplier :: 560%

Fire Rate :: 50 rounds per second

Reload Time :: 1.5 seconds

Status Chance :: 14%

Projectiles Per Shot :: 1.9

Status Procs Per Second :: 13.3

Time to Empty magazine :: 10 seconds

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Raw Damage Per Shot :: 73.203

Electric Damage Per Shot :: 26.144

Viral Damage Per Shot :: 47.059

Damage Per Shot to Armor :: 73.203

Damage Per Shot to Flesh :: 96.733

Damage Per Shot to Robotic :: 86.275

Damage Per Shot to Shields :: 73.203

Damage Per Shot to Corpus :: 73.203

Damage Per Shot to Grineer :: 73.203

Damage Per Shot to Infested :: 49.674

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Raw Crit Damage Per Shot :: 409.938

Electric Crit Damage Per Shot :: 146.406

Viral Crit Damage Per Shot :: 263.532

Crit Damage Per Shot to Armor :: 409.938

Crit Damage Per Shot to Flesh :: 541.704

Crit Damage Per Shot to Robotic :: 483.141

Crit Damage Per Shot to Shields :: 409.938

Crit Damage Per Shot to Corpus :: 409.938

Crit Damage Per Shot to Grineer :: 409.938

Crit Damage Per Shot to Infested :: 278.172

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Raw Damage Per Second :: 22279.235

Damage Per Second to Armor :: 22279.235

Damage Per Second to Flesh :: 29440.417

Damage Per Second to Robotic :: 26257.67

Damage Per Second to Shields :: 22279.235

Damage Per Second to Corpus :: 22279.235

Damage Per Second to Grineer :: 22279.235

Damage Per Second to Infested :: 15118.052

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Raw Burst Damage Per Second :: 25621.12

Burst Damage Per Second to Armor :: 25621.12

Burst Damage Per Second to Flesh :: 33856.48

Burst Damage Per Second to Robotic :: 30196.32

Burst Damage Per Second to Shields :: 25621.12

Burst Damage Per Second to Corpus :: 25621.12

Burst Damage Per Second to Grineer :: 25621.12

Burst Damage Per Second to Infested :: 17385.76

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Heavy Gunner :: 1.039 seconds

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Toxic Ancient :: 0.499 seconds

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Corpus Tech :: 1.719 seconds

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Fusion Moa :: 1.379 seconds

Soma (optimum-build with Viral):

• Serration
• Split Chamber
• Speed Trigger
• Hammer Shot
• Vital Sense
• Point Strike
• Cryo Rounds
• Infected Clip

Raw Damage Per Second :: 15799.91

Damage Per Second to Armor :: 16487.872

Damage Per Second to Flesh :: 21303.61

Damage Per Second to Robotic :: 15662.317

Damage Per Second to Shields :: 15744.873

Damage Per Second to Corpus :: 15799.91

Damage Per Second to Grineer :: 15799.91

Damage Per Second to Infested :: 11534.542

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Heavy Gunner :: 1.469 seconds

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Toxic Ancient :: 1.091 seconds

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Corpus Tech :: 1.553 seconds

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Fusion Moa :: 1.427 seconds

Full Printout:

Name :: Soma

Magazine Size :: 100

Total Ammo :: 640

Crit Chance :: 75%

Crit Damage Multiplier :: 840%

Fire Rate :: 24 rounds per second

Reload Time :: 3 seconds

Status Chance :: 9.8%

Projectiles Per Shot :: 1.9

Status Procs Per Second :: 4.469

Time to Empty magazine :: 4.167 seconds

Average Bleed Stacks :: 15

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Raw Damage Per Shot :: 168.612

Impact Damage Per Shot :: 6.022

Puncture Damage Per Shot :: 24.087

Slash Damage Per Shot :: 30.109

Viral Damage Per Shot :: 108.393

Damage Per Shot to Armor :: 176.139

Damage Per Shot to Flesh :: 228.831

Damage Per Shot to Robotic :: 167.107

Damage Per Shot to Shields :: 168.01

Damage Per Shot to Corpus :: 168.612

Damage Per Shot to Grineer :: 168.612

Damage Per Shot to Infested :: 121.943

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Raw Crit Damage Per Shot :: 1416.341

Impact Crit Damage Per Shot :: 50.584

Puncture Crit Damage Per Shot :: 202.334

Slash Crit Damage Per Shot :: 252.918

Viral Crit Damage Per Shot :: 910.505

Crit Damage Per Shot to Armor :: 1479.571

Crit Damage Per Shot to Flesh :: 1922.178

Crit Damage Per Shot to Robotic :: 1403.696

Crit Damage Per Shot to Shields :: 1411.283

Crit Damage Per Shot to Corpus :: 1416.341

Crit Damage Per Shot to Grineer :: 1416.341

Crit Damage Per Shot to Infested :: 1024.318

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Raw Damage Per Second :: 15799.91

Damage Per Second to Armor :: 16487.872

Damage Per Second to Flesh :: 21303.61

Damage Per Second to Robotic :: 15662.317

Damage Per Second to Shields :: 15744.873

Damage Per Second to Corpus :: 15799.91

Damage Per Second to Grineer :: 15799.91

Damage Per Second to Infested :: 11534.542

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Raw Burst Damage Per Second :: 26895.369

Burst Damage Per Second to Armor :: 28078.664

Burst Damage Per Second to Flesh :: 36361.733

Burst Damage Per Second to Robotic :: 26658.71

Burst Damage Per Second to Shields :: 26800.705

Burst Damage Per Second to Corpus :: 26895.369

Burst Damage Per Second to Grineer :: 26895.369

Burst Damage Per Second to Infested :: 19558.937

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Heavy Gunner :: 1.469 seconds

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Toxic Ancient :: 1.091 seconds

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Corpus Tech :: 1.553 seconds

Time to Kill a lvl 100 Fusion Moa :: 1.427 seconds

As you can see: the Synapse is obviously superior in every way to the Soma unless you're trying to snipe, and if you want to snipe: use a sniper.

 

All correct except that not only does Volt's shield increase DPS even further but also extende the range to infinite therefore doing sniper range and damage with much higher dps.

[Preanette]

M...My Boar Prime. It's safe right? Hopefully it's not the next to be picked on =(

[Definitegj]

Sorry for the double post.

Because of the 11.6 changes: The synapse is no longer even worth looking at. Continuous-fire weapons now no longer deal damage or proc except for then the summed damage is displayed which has been slowed down to ~1 per second. I hope this is a bug, but it's probably intended...

R.I.P. continuous fire weapons...

As to the testing: Monday's patch removed both the > 100% crit effect AND the damage on procs. I have videos from this weekend that clearly show both in effect and videos from before 11.6 that clearly show both NOT in effect. I'm not going to bother posting them though as it's a moot point now.

Viral, however, still stacks.

Video Proof. Watch the Rhino's max health in between duels:

Link if it fails to embed:

Here's a screenshot of his max health from the end there:

Note that he's out of combat with a max 7 health. It is interesting to note that every stack wears off all at once now instead of having individual durations.

R.I.P. Synapse... Long Live the Grakata as the apex TTK weapon!

Duel arena is a worse testing source than using Boss as some warframe abilities (and weapon stats?) act slightly differently in PVP (against Tennos) and PVE (against factions) conditions.

 

In between the rounds the game prematurely removed the viral procs icon/cooldown but the actual viral procs effects is carried to the next round. I believe the viral procs icon/cooldown is likely the only thing that prevented Viral Procs from stacking.

 

 

This is my attempt to show the Viral proc does not stack within the 6 seconds cooldown.

 

Everything is done under effects of ext key to bring my weapon damage to be low enough for testing.

My despair needs 8 shots to kill a 100% HP Trooper.

Trooper after 3 Viral procs with less than 50% of the hp bar (12.5% of total HP if stack) still can't be killed by 1 shot from Despair.

 

If you add up all the damage number done by my Sobek and Despair, you will find it is responsible for 50% of Trooper HP while Viral is responsible for the rest of the 50%. This indicate Viral proc does not stack within the cooldown.

 

(lv26 Trooper has 1245 hp, lv25 Trooper has 1156.8 hp)

Edited January 9, 2014 by Definitegj

[GottFaust]

Duel arena is a worse testing source than using Boss as some warframe abilities (and weapon stats?) act slightly differently in PVP (against Tennos) and PVE (against factions) conditions.

 

In between the rounds the game prematurely removed the viral procs icon/cooldown but the actual viral procs effects is carried to the next round. I believe the viral procs icon/cooldown is likely the only thing that prevented Viral Procs from stacking.

 

 

This is my attempt to show the Viral proc does not stack within the 6 seconds cooldown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px4S_aHNf60'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px4S_aHNf60

 

Everything is done under effects of ext key to bring my weapon damage to be low enough for testing.

My despair needs 8 shots to kill a 100% HP Trooper.

Trooper after 3 Viral procs with less than 50% of the hp bar (12.5% of total HP if stack) still can't be killed by 1 shot from Despair.

 

If you add up all the damage number done by my Sobek and Despair, you will find it is responsible for 50% of Trooper HP while Viral is responsible for the rest of the 50%. This indicate Viral proc does not stack within the cooldown.

 

(lv26 Trooper has 1245 hp, lv25 Trooper has 1156.8 hp)

Unfortunately your test is based on some bad assumptions:

• You assume the health bar updates correctly.
• You assume that procs are removed between combat.
• You assume that all Procs don't stack idefinitely.
• You assume that the actual Proc mechanic works differently against players rather than the individual proc effects.

For the first one: watch my video again.  The Rhino's health shows 50% at the end of the first round while in actuality he currently has 12.5%.  The number was correct on his end.  You'll notice that when combat ended the dojo-effect took over and put him to 'max' health, though didn't change the number what-so-ever on his end.

For the second: He actually saw the procs re-appear on this side when combat was rejoined, and the % was updated correctly on my side.  His maximum health on his end did NOT change when they reappeared.  This means that he procs are maintained, just not displayed during the dojo-effect.  Furthermore: they expired while out of combat after a certain ammount of time.  You can see this take palce in my video.  How can something that's 'removed' expire when it's supposed to?

For the third: All procs stack indefintely.  This is evident through testing each proc individually.  Whether additional stacks of a proc actually has any effect is determined by the proc's effect itself.  Multiple stacks of knockdown don't do anything additonal.  You can't knock down what's already kocked down.  Same with confusion.  You can't confuse a target that's already attacking allies any further.

For the fourth: There are only two procs that operate differently against players, and even then: it's just the effect.  Confusion doesn't cause a player to attack allies as removing control of a players character is a terrible design choice.  It, instead, reduces the player's accuracy.  This effect stacks.  Magnetic also affects players differently by removing energy, depleting shields, and causing the disruptor effect.  This is because disruptors deal magnetic damage and DE wanted to maintain what they do in damage 2.0.  This effect also stacks, though reducting the target's shields and energy to 0 when they're already 0 doesn't really do much.

Finally: It's working correctly in your video.

The first guy takes 9 shots of 159 damage to kill resulting in a visible 1431 damage dealt almost exactly based on the health bar.  The second guy recieves 355 damage from your Sobek, 161 damage from your despair shot, and then 8 from slash procs kills him.  Adding those together gets 524 wich is roughly a third of the 1431 health visible on the first guy.  Unless I'm wrong: that's evident of viral stacks.

It looks like your health formula is either incorrect or outdated by the way.  Even if the first target didn't have nearly exactly the amount of health left to take the final shot and it only took 9 shots to kill him he would have still had 1271 health which is more than your formula would indicate.

[Definitegj]

Finally: It's working correctly in your video.

The first guy takes 9 shots of 159 damage to kill resulting in a visible 1431 damage dealt almost exactly based on the health bar.  The second guy recieved 355 damage from your Sobek, 161 damage from your despair shot, and then 8 from slash procs kills him.  Adding those together gets 524 wich is roughly a third of the 1431 health visible on the first guy.  Unless I'm wrong: that's evident of viral stacks.

It looks like your health formula is either incorrect or outdated by the way.  Even if the first target didn't have nearly exactly the amount of health left to take the final shot and it only took 9 shots to kill him he would have still had 1271 health which is more than your formula would indicate.

 

I answer about my test first cause i gtg soon. Will reply about your part on next day.

 

The first guy is a lv26 Trooper and he died on the 8th shot, though 9 ammo were fired. Sorry about that confusion. You can pause on the 8th shot and see the its large amount of blood gashing out. I can retake the video later on if you want.

 

The health formula is

health = (level-base_level)^2 * 0.015 * base_health + base_health

It is derived by both Gogge and Kyte independently

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/118754-a-web-based-dps-tool/?p=1782591

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/134007-warframe-powers-post-u11/?p=1808419

 

My Sobek has 7 shots that hit on target, each shot has 8pellets, 9 pellets with crits, each pellet 7 damage

=7*8*7 +9*7 = 455

with despair and slash = 455+ 161+8 = 624

 

That is already over 50% of 1156 but you have to consider my viral proc starts at 3rd sobek shot.

 

Anyway, if Viral proc stack, 12.5% of 1156 is 145, the despair shot alone will be enough to kill it even if we discount all damage of Sobek. Unless you have a very different meaning of Viral proc stack than what I think most common players care about.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Definitegj

[GottFaust]

I answer about my test first cause i gtg soon. Will reply about your part on next day.

The first guy is a lv26 Trooper and he died on the 8th shot, though 9 ammo were fired. Sorry about that confusion. You can pause on the 8th shot and see the its large amount of blood gashing out. I can retake the video later on if you want.

The health formula is

health = (level-base_level)^2 * 0.015 * base_health + base_health

It is derived by both Gogge and Kyte independently

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/118754-a-web-based-dps-tool/?p=1782591

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/134007-warframe-powers-post-u11/?p=1808419

My Sobek has 7 shots that hit on target, each shot has 8pellets, 9 pellets with crits, each pellet 7 damage

=7*8*7 +9*7 = 455

with despair and slash = 455+ 161+8 = 624

That is already over 50% of 1156 but you have to consider my viral proc starts at 3rd sobek shot.

Anyway, if Viral proc stack, 12.5% of 1156 is 145, the despair shot alone will be enough to kill it even if we discount all damage of Sobek. Unless you have a very different meaning of Viral proc stack than what I think most common players care about.

A valid point on the 9th ammo drained. I stand corrected in that regard as the observed 1271 is within the margine of error when compared to the predicted 1245. I don't know how I missed that. I guess I was paying more attention to the second portion.

As to the damag dealt by your Sobek. I actually counted the individual damage numbers: it's 355 dealt.

From what I can see you got 3 viral procs. and dealt 42.3287% of the target's health in damage. That's actually extremely close to the predicted 42.1875% health that 3 viral stacks would bring the target down to if viral stacked 25% instead of 50% on non-player targets.

This grows curiouser and curiouser...

Edit - Come to think of it: we never actually tested to see the exact amount that his health was reduced for each stack. Looks like more testing this evening.

Edited January 9, 2014 by GottFaust

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Quoted for truth.

 

You like the Acrid?  Stug incoming.

 

You like the Ichors?  well too bad... they suck.

 

Torid?  Bugged and not being fixed.  Enjoy.

 

Ogris?  Eat Penta.  Far, far cheaper, and not even clan tech, while boasting better dps and vastly improved controllability.

 

Flux?  Why would you use that when Soma is so much better and so much easier to get?

 

OH S#&$ THE SYNAPSE IS OWNING THE SOMA WHICH IS FAR, FAR EASIER AND LITERALLY SEVERAL TIMES OVER FASTER AND CHEAPER TO OBTAIN?  Nerf that S#&$ in every single dimension to bring it in line with the Soma.

Flux makes Grineer explode into meaty chunks. Can't wait to craft it.

[GottFaust]

Some quick theory-crafting:

Assuming the game trunkates decimal places on health like it does with damage (essientailly rounding down), the Rhino in that video could never have actually hit 7 health assuming Viral drops the health by 50% per stack. The closest it could get would be 6.5625 at 6 stacks and that would have been trunkated to 6. However, if viral reduces health by 25% per stack: the 7 health visible is achieveable at 14 stacks or 7.4835 health trunkated.

I haven't confirmed this, and right now it's just some simple mathematical theory-crafting. That being said, it does fit with both our results and Definitegj's video.

Edit - I forgot to mention that he has 420 base health with Vigor and Redirection being his only defensive mods.

Edited January 9, 2014 by GottFaust

[Definitegj]

As to the damag dealt by your Sobek. I actually counted the individual damage numbers: it's 355 dealt.

From what I can see you got 3 viral procs. and dealt 42.3287% of the target's health in damage. That's actually extremely close to the predicted 42.1875% health that 3 viral stacks would bring the target down to if viral stacked 25% instead of 50% on non-player targets.

This grows curiouser and curiouser...

Edit - Come to think of it: we never actually tested to see the exact amount that his health was reduced for each stack. Looks like more testing this evening.

No my Sobek can't be dealing so low damage, I have already count less on my first counting by forgetting that there is 80% chance of having the 9th pellets due to multishots.

 

(http://imgur.com/ZNXzXgr)        70 dmg

(http://imgur.com/wlaikBe)           77

(http://imgur.com/6S7NYtU)          77

(http://imgur.com/FlVLsL6)            56

(http://imgur.com/V6tRxUo)           63  (2dmg from slash will be counted later on)

(http://imgur.com/ZD2WVpH)        91

(http://imgur.com/QC2STiK)          70

 

Sobek total:                            504

 

Slash tick i saw at least 9, so is 18 dmg

 

So total is 504 + 18 + 161 = 683

 

 

From what I can see you got 3 viral procs. and dealt 42.3287% of the target's health in damage. That's actually extremely close to the predicted 42.1875% health that 3 viral stacks would bring the target down to if viral stacked 25% instead of 50% on non-player targets.

 

No 25%. It just plain don't stack after first proc of 50%. You can observe the HP drop rate in the video. The first 3 shots before viral proc reduce small but fixed amount of hp per drop, and all shots after that reduce at double rate (slight variation that follow the actual amount of damage done per shot).

There is no further increased rate of reduction after the 2nd viral proc. (Last Sobek shot)

 

 

 

 

 

This is my understanding of what is happening in the video.

 

Lv 25 Trooper starts of with 1156 hp

 

After 3 shots of Sobek (3rd shot has viral proc), it has 1156-70-70-70 = 946hp

 

Then the viral proc (Assuming the pellet that proc viral was the last pellet in order), which reduce 50%, which means the Trooper now had 946/2 = 473 hp

 

Rest of the damage add up to be = 161 + 18 + 56+ 63 + 91 + 70 = 459. Close enough to me, differences is due to pellet order.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Definitegj

[Definitegj]

Unfortunately your test is based on some bad assumptions:

• You assume the health bar updates correctly.
• You assume that procs are removed between combat.
• You assume that all Procs don't stack idefinitely.
• You assume that the actual Proc mechanic works differently against players rather than the individual proc effects.

For the first one: watch my video again.  The Rhino's health shows 50% at the end of the first round while in actuality he currently has 12.5%.  The number was correct on his end.  You'll notice that when combat ended the dojo-effect took over and put him to 'max' health, though didn't change the number what-so-ever on his end.

For the second: He actually saw the procs re-appear on this side when combat was rejoined, and the % was updated correctly on my side.  His maximum health on his end did NOT change when they reappeared.  This means that he procs are maintained, just not displayed during the dojo-effect.  Furthermore: they expired while out of combat after a certain ammount of time.  You can see this take palce in my video.  How can something that's 'removed' expire when it's supposed to?

For the third: All procs stack indefintely.  This is evident through testing each proc individually.  Whether additional stacks of a proc actually has any effect is determined by the proc's effect itself.  Multiple stacks of knockdown don't do anything additonal.  You can't knock down what's already kocked down.  Same with confusion.  You can't confuse a target that's already attacking allies any further.

For the fourth: There are only two procs that operate differently against players, and even then: it's just the effect.  Confusion doesn't cause a player to attack allies as removing control of a players character is a terrible design choice.  It, instead, reduces the player's accuracy.  This effect stacks.  Magnetic also affects players differently by removing energy, depleting shields, and causing the disruptor effect.  This is because disruptors deal magnetic damage and DE wanted to maintain what they do in damage 2.0.  This effect also stacks, though reducting the target's shields and energy to 0 when they're already 0 doesn't really do much.

 

First: Didn't see any 50% at the end of first round. It is either 0%, 100% or 12.5% depending on which point of end of first round. Health bar works fine, it don't show absolute health,  it show percentage of max health which is something that viral effect messed around.

 

Second: I didn't means procs are removed, I means the status indicator is removed between combat. I believe that status indicator is the only inhibitor that prevent viral effects from stacking. Don't you think having the status indicator removed but status remain is a big alarm that arena condition is different from actual field condition?

 

Third: Im trying to say multiple stack of Viral don't do anything additional on the field.

 

Fourth: I didn't assume, I suspect. So you know there are possibilities and cases where DE make effects work differently than on the field and you are currently investigating the mechanics of Viral and you just straight away use arena testing as proof on the field. The test just not applicable even if the Viral stacks. It helps to reveal a lot but not prove anything.

 

 

 

 

Btw Viral act in 2 stages. The first stage is when the proc indicator is on, 2nd stage is when the indicator expired. The 2nd stage can act in different ways when it expired on the field.

 

Once the effect is over,

sometimes any amount of enemy remaining health get multiplied by 2,

sometimes it appear to drop 50% of enemy current health (especially boss, can be explained by recovery of max health),

sometimes 50% of the total health (not current) get permanently removed. If the enemy does not have enough health, that viral proc expiry can kill the enemy! (no exp though, the mob just stay motionless http://youtu.be/egkbs89dWX8)

 

Not sure the conditions to trigger each scenario.

 

 

Extra info to say field and arena is different.

Recently, there was once i got inflicted by Viral proc by Flameblade, I realized it in time to see my health get multiplied by 2 after the proc expired

Edited January 10, 2014 by Definitegj

[Gogge]

 

In regards to proc rate: what you're observing on continuous fire weapons is due to the damage-sum that's displayed to the user.  You appear to be counting only the procs that are displayed on the summed numbers.  Note that the visual effect is only applied to the target when the proc icon is displayed, and they appear to be part of the same function as well as entirely client-side.  You need to break the damage sum function to see what's really going on.  You could do this through host migration last I checked, but it doesn't always work the first time.

 

If you get a proc of any of the small ticks between damage sum ticks the game sums them and triggers the effect when the damage sum tick appears, you can see this when a mob is at very low health and then gets killed by the damage sum tick without the electric damage applying even when the icon appears (meaning you actually got the proc before the damage sum, but the game didn't actually deal any damage until the damage sum event).Pre-11.6.0 if you got two procs on the ticks between damage sums it got displayed as a "double damage" number (with an icon, this is probably why you though you got double crits above 100% crit rate).

 

If you get a proc between damage sums the game displays the icon when the damage sum is displayed, so you don't have to break the function as you'll always see all procs anyway (post-11.6.0 it looks like you just deal double the electric proc damage, the extra number that pops up, when you get double procs between damage sums, not double all the damage as in pre-11.6.0).

 

 

Let me explain what you're seeing.  When a continuous fire weapon deals damage it does so thorugh 50 (affected by fire-rate) tiny damage tics per second. These ticks are then added up until they hit an arbitrary sum and displayed to the player.  Increasing the DPS through increasing the base damage, adding multishot, or increasing crit rate/damage will cause the summed numbers in question to display more qickly.  It also increases the arbitrary sum number, but not as much as the actual damage is increased.  Thus: adding Serration will increase the speed that summed numbers are displayed.  Same with Heavy Caliber, Split Chamber, elemental mods, and anything else that increases damage dealt.  Unlike normal weapons which display all procs from a given projectile next to the damage that a projectile deals: continuous fire weapons only display the most common proc within a given sum.  If you get 5 viral procs and 1 electric proc during a sum period, the damage display will only show the viral icon. Increasing the damage increases the rate at which summed damage numbers are displayed thus increasing the rate at which procs can be displayed to the user thus giving the illusion that procs are happening more often when in reality they are not.

 

Even if this "most common proc" idea was correct it's completely irrelevant as I was testing a single element, there are no other procs to display.

 

Some post-11.6.0 speculation:

 

After some quick testing it seems like the chance to proc IPS or an element is the weapon's status proc chance divided by 6 (or maybe 5). For continuous weapons it seems like this chance is also then divided by ten ((status / 6) / 10); the Synapse has a per tick (the 50 ticks per second thing) proc chance of roughly 0.166..% (0.00166.., (0.1 / 6) / 10) when I tested it over ~45 procs. Testing the Grakata shows just the "status proc divided by six" (or maybe five) proc rate for IPS, and it doesn't look like it's modified by the base IPS damage distribution any more, but it looks like the proc chance is also modified by elemental weaknesses/resistance. IPS procs was 45/67/54 over 1200 shots against Heavy Gunners, +50% Piercing +10% Slashing, "normalizing" the procs for that gives 45/45/49 which is 3.75%/3.75%/4% (20% divided by six is 3.33..% and dividing by five is 4%).

 

There can be a lot of things wrong with the above ideas as I haven't tested it enough yet, and the sample sizes are a bit too small so the numbers might be off a bit (as an example I can't say if the status proc is divided by 6 or by 5, or it might be some number in between).

 

Some quick theory-crafting:

Assuming the game trunkates decimal places on health like it does with damage (essientailly rounding down), the Rhino in that video could never have actually hit 7 health assuming Viral drops the health by 50% per stack. The closest it could get would be 6.5625 at 6 stacks and that would have been trunkated to 6. However, if viral reduces health by 25% per stack: the 7 health visible is achieveable at 14 stacks or 7.4835 health trunkated.

 

The game treats some player vs. player interactions differently, it's pointless to bring in another variable in the testing. Just go to the void with a Grakata and test it on Heavy Gunners; the first stack of viral is perhaps -10% (down to around 90%, it's definitely not 75% or 50%, a lvl 31 Heavy Gunner needed 5k+ damage to die when I tested), the second stack brings the HP down to roughly 50% (lvl 30 Heavy, died after a bit over 2000 damage), any stacks over that seem to have a really low impact (7 stacks might have been down another -10% to roughly 40%, still required over 2000 damage to kill a level 31 Heavy after it wore off). The highest I tested when killing was ~12 stacks and it still required tons of damage to kill. 

[GottFaust]

If you get a proc of any of the small ticks between damage sum ticks the game sums them and triggers the effect when the damage sum tick appears, you can see this when a mob is at very low health and then gets killed by the damage sum tick without the electric damage applying even when the icon appears (meaning you actually got the proc before the damage sum, but the game didn't actually deal any damage until the damage sum event).Pre-11.6.0 if you got two procs on the ticks between damage sums it got displayed as a "double damage" number (with an icon, this is probably why you though you got double crits above 100% crit rate).

 

If you get a proc between damage sums the game displays the icon when the damage sum is displayed, so you don't have to break the function as you'll always see all procs anyway (post-11.6.0 it looks like you just deal double the electric proc damage, the extra number that pops up, when you get double procs between damage sums, not double all the damage as in pre-11.6.0).

 

 

 

 

Even if this "most common proc" idea was correct it's completely irrelevant as I was testing a single element, there are no other procs to display.

 

Some post-11.6.0 speculation:

 

After some quick testing it seems like the chance to proc IPS or an element is the weapon's status proc chance divided by 6 (or maybe 5). For continuous weapons it seems like this chance is also then divided by ten ((status / 6) / 10); the Synapse has a per tick (the 50 ticks per second thing) proc chance of roughly 0.166..% (0.00166.., (0.1 / 6) / 10) when I tested it over ~45 procs. Testing the Grakata shows just the "status proc divided by six" (or maybe five) proc rate for IPS, and it doesn't look like it's modified by the base IPS damage distribution any more, but it looks like the proc chance is also modified by elemental weaknesses/resistance. IPS procs was 45/67/54 over 1200 shots against Heavy Gunners, +50% Piercing +10% Slashing, "normalizing" the procs for that gives 45/45/49 which is 3.75%/3.75%/4% (20% divided by six is 3.33..% and dividing by five is 4%).

 

There can be a lot of things wrong with the above ideas as I haven't tested it enough yet, and the sample sizes are a bit too small so the numbers might be off a bit (as an example I can't say if the status proc is divided by 6 or by 5, or it might be some number in between).

 

 

The game treats some player vs. player interactions differently, it's pointless to bring in another variable in the testing. Just go to the void with a Grakata and test it on Heavy Gunners; the first stack of viral is perhaps -10% (down to around 90%, it's definitely not 75% or 50%, a lvl 31 Heavy Gunner needed 5k+ damage to die when I tested), the second stack brings the HP down to roughly 50% (lvl 30 Heavy, died after a bit over 2000 damage), any stacks over that seem to have a really low impact (7 stacks might have been down another -10% to roughly 40%, still required over 2000 damage to kill a level 31 Heavy after it wore off). The highest I tested when killing was ~12 stacks and it still required tons of damage to kill.

It does appear that viral reduces different target type's max health by different amounts. Players are definitely 50%. Some targets seem to be 50%, some 10, some 25. I'll have to build a database of this before I update my calc. This is going to take a while. I may just grab the data for the ones I use for TTK.

As to the continuous-fire weapon functionality: the patch notes directly confirmed my described functionality as the way it worked before 11.6. That doesn't matter now though as it can now ONLY proc when the damage number is displayed as that's the only time damage is actually dealt. Continuous-fire weapons now build up damage passively and then deal it in a single chunk when it reaches an arbitrary time-delay. That is the only point where procs can happen as procs can only occur in the instance where damage is actually dealt.

[Gogge]

As to the continuous-fire weapon functionality: the patch notes directly confirmed my described functionality as the way it worked before 11.6. That doesn't matter now though as it can now ONLY proc when the damage number is displayed as that's the only time damage is actually dealt. Continuous-fire weapons now build up damage passively and then deal it in a single chunk when it reaches an arbitrary time-delay. That is the only point where procs can happen as procs can only occur in the instance where damage is actually dealt.

 

I think we read the patch notes a bit differently, patch note say:

 

"Since damage mods increase the rate at which damage accumulates, this would cause damage to be inflicted more often though each damage event would not necessarily be larger."

 

I read it as that this is them talking about the rate of damage: "this would cause damage to be inflicted more often", meaning you also saw an increase in proc rate (as actual damage was inflicted more often). This it wasn't just the visual system that showed numbers more often, you increased the actual proc rate too via more ticks.

 

As for after 11.6.0 this part indicates that they're just talking about the visual display (as they say that damage still accumulates):

 

"Now continuous fire weapons now limit the frequency of damage numbers by using a minimum time between impacts, regardless of how much damage has accumulated"

 

Which makes it sound like they're still using the 50 ticks in the background and are just changing when numbers pop up on the screen. I'm not sure there's been any mechanical change (aside from them nerfing the proc rate a bit), but your theory with procs only happening when the actual damage is dealt (when the damage summary happens) sounds like it could explain the drop in proc rate. More testing will probably show how it works eventually.

[GottFaust]

I think we read the patch notes a bit differently, patch note say:

 

"Since damage mods increase the rate at which damage accumulates, this would cause damage to be inflicted more often though each damage event would not necessarily be larger."

 

I read it as that this is them talking about the rate of damage: "this would cause damage to be inflicted more often", meaning you also saw an increase in proc rate (as actual damage was inflicted more often). This it wasn't just the visual system that showed numbers more often, you increased the actual proc rate too via more ticks.

 

As for after 11.6.0 this part indicates that they're just talking about the visual display (as they say that damage still accumulates):

 

"Now continuous fire weapons now limit the frequency of damage numbers by using a minimum time between impacts, regardless of how much damage has accumulated"

 

Which makes it sound like they're still using the 50 ticks in the background and are just changing when numbers pop up on the screen. I'm not sure there's been any mechanical change (aside from them nerfing the proc rate a bit), but your theory with procs only happening when the actual damage is dealt (when the damage summary happens) sounds like it could explain the drop in proc rate. More testing will probably show how it works eventually.

Yes, they increase the rate at which damage accumulates by causing each individual tick to deal more damage. This in turn caused the summed numbers to display more often because more damage was being dealt. Remember, you could break the summing function through host migration before 11.6 and literally see what was happening under the hood so to speak. You might still be able to: I haven't tried since the patch went live.

Now they are still using the 50 ticks in the background, yes, but they are only actually applying them to the target when the summed number is displayed. Previous they applied them in real time and then only displayed the number when the arbitrary sum was reached. Procs occur when damage is dealt, not when it is displayed, so changing the display would not alter the functionality in the slightest. What they did was change not only the display, but how damage is dealt as well. The damage is now added up in the background but not actually applied what-so-ever until the sum is reached or you let off the trigger. Thus damage is only dealt when the number is displayed at this point and thus you can only proc on display.

This change in base functionality is evident by watching videos recorded of the Synapse from before and after 11.6. Before 11.6 the health drop on targets is extremely smooth outside of the quick-drop and ramping effect of viral stacks. After 11.6 the health drop on targets occurs ONLY when the summed damage number is displayed.

Edited January 10, 2014 by GottFaust

[Gogge]

 

Yes, they increase the rate at which damage accumulates by causing each individual tick to deal more damage. This in turn caused the summed numbers to display more often because more damage was being dealt. Remember, you could break the summing function through host migration before 11.6 and literally see what was happening under the hood so to speak. You might still be able to: I haven't tried since the patch went live.

 

The key part for me was:

 

"this would cause damage to be inflicted more often though each damage event would not necessarily be larger."

 

As I understood it actual damage rate was what was increased, which increased the accumulated damage. Say the threshold is ~10 damage on a 50 DPS weapon, if you do 50 ticks per second with each tick doing 1 damage you pop up a number every 0.2 second (every 10 ticks). If you add a 100% damage mod that increases it to 100 ticks per second with each tick doing 1 damage you pop up a number every 0.1 second (still every 10 ticks).

 

This gives the same effect as what you describe, but you also "would cause damage to be inflicted more often" as the patch notes say happened. 

 

 

Now they are still using the 50 ticks in the background, yes, but they are only actually applying them to the target when the summed number is displayed. Previous they applied them in real time and then only displayed the number when the arbitrary sum was reached. Procs occur when damage is dealt, not when it is displayed, so changing the display would not alter the functionality in the slightest. What they did was change not only the display, but how damage is dealt as well. The damage is now added up in the background but not actually applied what-so-ever until the sum is reached or you let off the trigger. Thus damage is only dealt when the number is displayed at this point and thus you can only proc on display.

This change in base functionality is evident by watching videos recorded of the Synapse from before and after 11.6. Before 11.6 the health drop on targets is extremely smooth outside of the quick-drop and ramping effect of viral stacks. After 11.6 the health drop on targets occurs ONLY when the summed damage number is displayed.

 

Here's the health bar from a video I recorded with a Synapse on the 7:th in 11.5.8 (60 fps in game, source video 30 fps,  the gif is 33 fps, link in case it doesn't embed):

 

 

So in 11.8.5 the HP bar updated with the damage summary just as it does now, the change was that the delay got longer and is now fixed (against a lvl 23 grineer lancer now it ticks at a fixed ~3 times per second for ~19 damage instead of a variable ~7.5 times per second for ~7 depending on damage mods).

 

The procs might still have been changed from the "50 ticks per second" part to just on damage summary ticks in 11.6.0, it might be possible to figure out by checking what formulas make sense in relation to how other weapons calculate base proc chance.

[GottFaust]

The key part for me was:

 

"this would cause damage to be inflicted more often though each damage event would not necessarily be larger."

 

As I understood it actual damage rate was what was increased, which increased the accumulated damage. Say the threshold is ~10 damage on a 50 DPS weapon, if you do 50 ticks per second with each tick doing 1 damage you pop up a number every 0.2 second (every 10 ticks). If you add a 100% damage mod that increases it to 100 ticks per second with each tick doing 1 damage you pop up a number every 0.1 second (still every 10 ticks).

 

This gives the same effect as what you describe, but you also "would cause damage to be inflicted more often" as the patch notes say happened. 

 

 

 

Here's the health bar from a video I recorded with a Synapse on the 7:th in 11.5.8 (60 fps in game, source video 30 fps,  the gif is 33 fps, link in case it doesn't embed):

 

 

So in 11.8.5 the HP bar updated with the damage summary just as it does now, the change was that the delay got longer and is now fixed (against a lvl 23 grineer lancer now it ticks at a fixed ~3 times per second for ~19 damage instead of a variable ~7.5 times per second for ~7 depending on damage mods).

 

The procs might still have been changed from the "50 ticks per second" part to just on damage summary ticks in 11.6.0, it might be possible to figure out by checking what formulas make sense in relation to how other weapons calculate base proc chance.

You obviously can't go back in time, but breaking the summing functionality from before 11.6 would actually show you each of the 50 ticks. Those ticks would definitely get larger with damage mods applied. The would also multiply with elemental damage as each elemental damage tick was displayed as a separate number. It honestly doesn't matter if you believe me or not at this point as it has changed enough that it no longer makes a difference.

They changed the damage application functionality before 11.6.0 then, and the slowing of the damage numbers just brought it to our attention in a big way. My info was out of date in this respect apparently.

I don't have any videos from before damage 2.0 myself, so here's a video of someone using the Flux from a while back:

Note the fountain of tiny numbers and the smooth health bar drain.

[Definitegj]

Found a way to self inflict viral proc. Since it is self-inflicted this video can't be used as definitive proof though it show what i described previously, but hope this will make understanding Viral mechanics much easier.

 

 

Btw thanks for the calculators, both of you. Good Luck.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Definitegj

[Pep_Legend]

Will play Burston Prime over Soma any day, mainly because it handles ammo with greater efficiency.

[.solitus]

Following this thread is much more difficult than being dropped into the center of amazon forest with no gps, no lights, no map, at night.

[FlanShark]

May I ask if malignant force should now replace hammer shot, in a viral synapse build?

Apologies if this was answered and I missed it, I *have* read the thread but it's 6am so who knows :p

[GottFaust]

May I ask if malignant force should now replace hammer shot, in a viral synapse build?

Apologies if this was answered and I missed it, I *have* read the thread but it's 6am so who knows :p

Use both. Replace Infected Clip with with Malignant Force. Don't bother until they fix the continuous fire functionality though. Scott confirmed the current functionality to be "unintended" in the latest livestream.

Following this thread is much more difficult than being dropped into the center of amazon forest with no gps, no lights, no map, at night.

Sorry for all the back-and-forth going on. Apparently Viral is more complicated than just: "Stacks a 50% max-health debuff". It appears to affect different surface types differently.

[FlanShark]

Use both. Replace Infected Clip with with Malignant Force.

Ah. Should probably have been obvious to me, lol. Thanks!