Grakata Shouldn't Be A Primary....?

[Monolake]

 okay damage output.

Being second only to Soma out of all market rifles

[notionphil]

There is more to a weapon than damage output. Grakata delivers it's first 5 bullets in the time soma shoots 1 or 2. That coupled with the status chance difference means an average 100% chance for a status effect on G while S has a 10% chance. It's not better or worse, it's different.

That's a good thing. I find the two balanced, or near balanced, actually. Soma is easier to build bc it has no obvious weaknesses however.

[ensignvidiot]

Being second only to Soma out of all market rifles

 

soma has something the grakata doesn't have: Ammo Economy. Damn thing drinks bullets, if you don't have ammo mods and conversion on it, you'll be using your secondary more than your primary.

 

 

wait, I just proved your point didn't I?

Edited January 3, 2014 by ensignvidiot

[SlightVect]

After a leave of absence to toy around with the Grakata and Soma. I still stand by my views, as many people will still say. "Grakata is a baby Soma." 
It's an inferior version of the Soma to no end, nothing more than a stepping stone to rank 6.

 

Also, to those saying "Oh, SMG's are Primaries." You clearly missed the entire point of the topic. 

 

The point I was trying to make throughout this entire thread was that Grakata isn't as strong as other long range guns even WITH a full crit build. ( Seriously, guys. You think I made this topic with no research, testing and just pulled this out of my &#!? I'm insulted.) 

 

Yes, the Grakata has some nice DPS No denying that. However, I find it a tad bit amusing how most go And I quote.

Secondaries out class primaries.

That should be a red flag within itself.

 

Furthermore.

The model argument.

Have you not seen the size of the Cestra? Thing's just as big if not bigger than the little bullet hose we're talking about.

 

Also, the argument of "Element and status" I'll assume you merely skimmed the post without reading it, to which I say Shame on you.

I could make an entire thread about how power creep is such a severe issue in this game, but it'd be met with skepticism much like this.

[Makya]

The point I was trying to make throughout this entire thread was that Grakata isn't as strong as other long range guns even WITH a full crit build. 

The Grakata out DPSs the Gorgon and out DPBullets it, does this mean then the Gorgon should not be a primary? Also, the Cestra is significantly smaller than the Grakata.

[Rabidbluedeath]

After a leave of absence to toy around with the Grakata and Soma. I still stand by my views, as many people will still say. "Grakata is a baby Soma." 

It's an inferior version of the Soma to no end, nothing more than a stepping stone to rank 6.

 

Also, to those saying "Oh, SMG's are Primaries." You clearly missed the entire point of the topic. 

 

The point I was trying to make throughout this entire thread was that Grakata isn't as strong as other long range guns even WITH a full crit build. ( Seriously, guys. You think I made this topic with no research, testing and just pulled this out of my &#!? I'm insulted.) 

 

Yes, the Grakata has some nice DPS No denying that. However, I find it a tad bit amusing how most go And I quote.

Secondaries out class primaries.

That should be a red flag within itself.

 

Furthermore.

The model argument.

Have you not seen the size of the Cestra? Thing's just as big if not bigger than the little bullet hose we're talking about.

 

Also, the argument of "Element and status" I'll assume you merely skimmed the post without reading it, to which I say Shame on you.

I could make an entire thread about how power creep is such a severe issue in this game, but it'd be met with skepticism much like this.

If the 4th strongest gun DPS wise should be moved to a secondary because its outclassed does that mean we should only have 3 primaries? 

 

no

 

Acrid is relatively the size of the grakata, should it be moved to primary? 

 

no

 

The fact soma is the grakata V2 is largely irrelevant because of its mastery rank. New players who want a crit primary can get the grakata then upgrade to the soma when they have the mastery. Some guns get obsoleted (mk1). I wouldn't mind more even weapon spread but not everything can be lateral progression.

[MECT_HET]

No. Sidearms do not have good crit damage modes, so moving grakk in there shall significantly cripple it.

[SlightVect]

No. Sidearms do not have good crit damage modes, so moving grakk in there shall significantly cripple it.

I beg to differ. With a single crit mod  and crit damage mod as well as the two multishot mods (Lethal torrent and Barrel diffusion) Grakata would gain dps. if anything. The only thing suffering would be the elemental part.( I'll do the math later. ) 

If the 4th strongest gun DPS wise should be moved to a secondary because its outclassed does that mean we should only have 3 primaries? 

 

no

 

Acrid is relatively the size of the grakata, should it be moved to primary? 

 

no

 

The fact soma is the grakata V2 is largely irrelevant because of its mastery rank. New players who want a crit primary can get the grakata then upgrade to the soma when they have the mastery. Some guns get obsoleted (mk1). I wouldn't mind more even weapon spread but not everything can be lateral progression.

sigh...Look mate. I can understand the fact that Grakata is a crit based weapon for low level players, but it should be strong enough to not stand in another weapons shadow. It should be able to stand on it's own two legs and move from the indignation of being a lesser version of something. 

( MK-1 should have it's own strength as well.) As for the Acrid argument, that's invalid. I used the Cestra to state that "Not everything large should be a primary." 

Also, in higher levels all you really see is Soma, Strun wraith and Synapse.  We basically DO have only three real primaries. Everything else pretty much IS obsolete.  Once the Karak hype wears off, that'll be gone too.( Haven't seen a Latron, Braton their prime counter parts, Hind, or Burston in quite a while. Aside from the occasional Tenno with a special weapon [Penta, orgris, torrid, ignis or sniper.] That I see in low-mid level MD.) There's only those three S's. Sadly, this is where the "Power creep" rant kicks in, however. That's off topic, back to the point.

 

 

The Grakata out DPSs the Gorgon and out DPBullets it, does this mean then the Gorgon should not be a primary? Also, the Cestra is significantly smaller than the Grakata.

Er...Why bring up the Gorgon? Gorgon was an entirely different build path, as well as had it's own identity. That was completely irrelevant. 

[MECT_HET]

I beg to differ. With a single crit mod  and crit damage mod as well as the two multishot mods (Lethal torrent and Barrel diffusion) Grakata would gain dps. if anything. The only thing suffering would be the elemental part.( I'll do the math later. ) 

Wanna compare? Be my guest.

 

Damage:

rifles: x4.3 using both serration and hc (47.3)

pistols: x2.86 using both hornet strike and magnum forse (31.46)

 

Crit Damage:

rifles got 180% crit damage without any penalties (264.88)

pistol got 120% crit damage with 15% base damage penalty (117.66)

 

Crit chance:

rifles got 150% crit chance boost (62.5%)

pistols got 120% crit chance boost (55%)

 

Multishot:

rifles got double hit (62.5% to score 529.76)

pistols got tripe hit (55% to score 352.9)

 

Proc:

rifles got 100% acutal proc boost (40%) up to 115% (43%)

pistols got 60% actual proc boost (32%) up to 85% (37%)

 

Actual builds:

primary:

serration+hc+split chamber+point strike+vital sense+hammer shot+2 slots on whatever you want (I'd prefer maligant force+cryo rounds for even more status and less ammo consumption due to applying viral)

 

secondary:

hornet strike+magnum force+lethal torrent+double barrel+pistol gambit+hollow point+target cracker+only 1 slot to insert there self destruction because of overall idiocy.

 

So no. Grakka won't gain anything from moving into the sidearms.

[IamSalva]

I beg to differ. With a single crit mod  and crit damage mod as well as the two multishot mods (Lethal torrent and Barrel diffusion) Grakata would gain dps. if anything. The only thing suffering would be the elemental part.( I'll do the math later. ) 

sigh...Look mate. I can understand the fact that Grakata is a crit based weapon for low level players, but it should be strong enough to not stand in another weapons shadow. It should be able to stand on it's own two legs and move from the indignation of being a lesser version of something. 

( MK-1 should have it's own strength as well.) As for the Acrid argument, that's invalid. I used the Cestra to state that "Not everything large should be a primary." 

Also, in higher levels all you really see is Soma, Strun wraith and Synapse.  We basically DO have only three real primaries. Everything else pretty much IS obsolete.  Once the Karak hype wears off, that'll be gone too.( Haven't seen a Latron, Braton their prime counter parts, Hind, or Burston in quite a while. Aside from the occasional Tenno with a special weapon [Penta, orgris, torrid, ignis or sniper.] That I see in low-mid level MD.) There's only those three S's. Sadly, this is where the "Power creep" rant kicks in, however. That's off topic, back to the point.

 

 

Er...Why bring up the Gorgon? Gorgon was an entirely different build path, as well as had it's own identity. That was completely irrelevant. 

 

IDK what you play but i have a 5x Forma Grakata and a 4x Forma Soma... and really... if not for the ammo... there is nearly nothing in this game the Grakata can´t handle. 

 

50+ Waves Grineer Def, 1,5h Survival, all done it with Grakata.

 

I don´t know what you talk about here, yes Soma is a Grakata with better Ammo handling, but trads in the Status Chance for that. 

 

If any thing someone should cry about Rank0 Guns outclassing Clan Tech Weapons & Prime Weapons by far.

[Serialkillerwhale]

 

Nothing saying they can't make dual primaries, they just haven't yet.

Dual Ogris.

[taiiat]

sigh...Look mate. I can understand the fact that Grakata is a crit based weapon for low level players, but it should be strong enough to not stand in another weapons shadow. It should be able to stand on it's own two legs and move from the indignation of being a lesser version of something. 

 

Also, in higher levels all you really see is Soma, Strun wraith and Synapse.  We basically DO have only three real primaries. Everything else pretty much IS obsolete.  Once the Karak hype wears off, that'll be gone too.( Haven't seen a Latron, Braton their prime counter parts, Hind, or Burston in quite a while. Aside from the occasional Tenno with a special weapon [Penta, orgris, torrid, ignis or sniper.] That I see in low-mid level MD.) There's only those three S's. Sadly, this is where the "Power creep" rant kicks in, however. That's off topic, back to the point.

those 3 weapons certainly do have the most 'Deeps'.

 

but that doesn't make them the best. it makes them the best crutch if you can't come up with something better.

 

the fact that Grakata can kill a lv1000 Heavy Unit before Soma kills a lv500 Heavy Unit, is something to be reckoned with. 

Grakata is a good example of how powerful Elementals are, and that Status Chance is ultimately far more awesome than raw Damage Output. as Damage Output is only great until you stop killing enemies with just a few bullets. 

 

 

and i see a wide variety of weapons, i don't know where you're going for 'higher levels', because in the 'higher levels' i play in, many people use all kinds of weapons because they provide them with something more useful than relying on Damage Output alone.

 

of course, these are also groups of players that have been around enough to get bored of the 'Deeps' weapons, and are simply using whatever has attributes they consider to their taste. and, what do you know. we complete that 'higher level' content, with zero issue.

 

but, that becomes a different story then, where whatever can get the most Status Effects replaces whatever can get the most Damage Output. so the issue just sort've shifts to other things. 

 

 

i certainly agree that weapons like Soma really need some tweaking. Mastery 6 is a joke, that's not hard to get at all. and the Resources required are even more of a joke. the lack of any Kick at all, is also peculiar, due to the number of Rounds being fired. Recoil isn't a big deal here since it's third person, but there should be some Kick.

but those sorts of weapons absolutely taper off once they stop killing enemies with just a few bullets. and more Utility targeted weapons... replace them. :s

Edited January 15, 2014 by taiiat

[SlightVect]

Back to the topic. I can understand why people are like "GRAKATA BE PRIMARY, UNGABUNGA." Grakata is the little bullet hose we all love and enjoy ( I still have mine.) Let me Restate the main points I see people make.

 

1.Status builds

A blast Grakata, devastating and a CC monster. Some would call the build OP because nothing gets up at higher levels and it adds a healthy bit of damage. It's a shame that It's the only thing making the weapon stand out. If it wasn't for damage 2.0 and the elemental mods. No one would touch a Grakata because NUMERICALLY, it's inferior. The only viable arguments anyone seems to have here is "Mastery rank" and "Status build". As good as it is, that's all it has going for it as I said multiple times in the first post. 

2.dropping level 1k's

As for the high end levels, no casual player is gonna go that long for results like that. Though it is a decent example. Let's think logically here for a moment. 

3.Grakata's fire rate

Fire rate is impressive, however it's not always good. Too much is harmful, not enough is harmful. It's literally a matter of opinion.

4.Ammo economy

For the ammo argument.  Let's be honest. The general ammo capacity for every weapon is moderately stupid. ( By that I mean max.) Then again, we have to sacrifice damage for ammo conversions as well as max ammo mods. Fun.

5. (My least favorite.) Mastery rank.  

 I  think that the whole mastery system is faulty. ( I've nothing nice to say about it.) 

6. Utility at higher levels.

Utility wins games, got me there. 

 

Is the only Legitimate argument "Status build"?  If so, it's furthering my point that the Grakata has to be looked at base stat wise. Now I'm concerned about the weapon as a whole.

[Rabidbluedeath]

sigh...Look mate. I can understand the fact that Grakata is a crit based weapon for low level players, but it should be strong enough to not stand in another weapons shadow. It should be able to stand on it's own two legs and move from the indignation of being a lesser version of something. 

( MK-1 should have it's own strength as well.) As for the Acrid argument, that's invalid. I used the Cestra to state that "Not everything large should be a primary." 

Also, in higher levels all you really see is Soma, Strun wraith and Synapse.  We basically DO have only three real primaries. Everything else pretty much IS obsolete.  Once the Karak hype wears off, that'll be gone too.( Haven't seen a Latron, Braton their prime counter parts, Hind, or Burston in quite a while. Aside from the occasional Tenno with a special weapon [Penta, orgris, torrid, ignis or sniper.] That I see in low-mid level MD.) There's only those three S's. Sadly, this is where the "Power creep" rant kicks in, however. That's off topic, back to the point.

 

 

Er...Why bring up the Gorgon? Gorgon was an entirely different build path, as well as had it's own identity. That was completely irrelevant. 

It is perfectly fine based on everyone else's arguments in this thread. I don't even understand your reasoning at this point other than "I think it should be put here".

 

Your model argument was: Cestra is big, it looks like a primary. Grakata is small looks like a secondary. Acrid is big too it looks like it could be a primary, its just not favoring your view point so you want to try and say its invalid. Stug is big too should it be a primary? Ignis is  the same size as grakata, should it be secondary?

 

If one of the reasons grakata should be a secondary is its weaker than X weapon. Yet is stronger than the gorgon, should gorgon be a secondary. That was his point. If that is irrelevant because gorgon isn't crit based then there is only 1 better weapon than the grakata (soma) because strun wraith (shotgun) and synapse (continuous fire) are different build paths as well You don't even appear to be understanding peoples counter arguments, then calling them irrelevant.

 

1.Status builds

A blast Grakata, devastating and a CC monster. Some would call the build OP because nothing gets up at higher levels and it adds a healthy bit of damage. It's a shame that It's the only thing making the weapon stand out. If it wasn't for damage 2.0 and the elemental mods. No one would touch a Grakata because NUMERICALLY, it's inferior. The only viable arguments anyone seems to have here is "Mastery rank" and "Status build". As good as it is, that's all it has going for it as I said multiple times in the first post. 

2.dropping level 1k's

As for the high end levels, no casual player is gonna go that long for results like that. Though it is a decent example. Let's think logically here for a moment. 

6. Utility at higher levels.

Utility wins games, got me there. 

 

Is the only Legitimate argument "Status build"?  If so, it's furthering my point that the Grakata has to be looked at base stat wise. Now I'm concerned about the weapon as a whole.

Your 1 and 6 are supporting each other, further defeating your post. The #2 was about grakata being stronger than the soma in some situations with elements, not levels of enemies. This also further defeats your arguments. 

 

Soma's only build is a crit build, whats your point? If it works it works. You seem to be so completely fixated on getting grakata to be secondary your not even reading the things it does good as good.

[IamSalva]

 

Is the only Legitimate argument "Status build"?  If so, it's furthering my point that the Grakata has to be looked at base stat wise. Now I'm concerned about the weapon as a whole.

 

And the only Argument for Soma and Synapse is "Critbuild"? 

I more and more get the feeling that you don´t know what you talk about...

 

More Arguments for Grakata beeing great:

4th best DPS in the game

Hitscan with unlimited Rang (compared to Synapse thats a +)

 

There are lots more Weapons that are lots worse than Grakata now. Some could argue that there are only 3 other Weapons that are better AND Grakata has the Status Chance to compete with them.

 

What do you want? Every Weapon having the same DPS?

Even if thats your Goal, Grakate is one of your last concerns then, perhapse start witth the FLux, This thing is in such a poor state now... Its just a "poor mans" Synapse now, the joke beeing that its not easyier to build at all.

 

This weapon has nothing going for it, no Status, lot less crits, not even half the DPS, the only + beeing 5m more range. Back in daamge 1.0 it had armor ignore making it great and one of the best weapons in the game... now they changed that to SLASH damage, the worst of the new damage types and giving it no compensation in form of upping the damage, range, crit, status or what ever.

 

Why are you concerned about Grakata which is one of the most viable Weapons in the game, for Endgame and Beginners alike when there are other Weapons with such glaring Problems?

[taiiat]

Even if thats your Goal, Grakate is one of your last concerns then, perhapse start witth the FLux, This thing is in such a poor state now... Its just a "poor mans" Synapse now, the joke beeing that its not easyier to build at all.

 

This weapon has nothing going for it, no Status, lot less crits, not even half the DPS, the only + beeing 5m more range. Back in daamge 1.0 it had armor ignore making it great and one of the best weapons in the game... now they changed that to SLASH damage, the worst of the new damage types and giving it no compensation in form of upping the damage, range, crit, status or what ever.

Flux is far from that bad. it's 'Deeps' may be less, but it's Utility is still good.

 

and Physical damage only really matters what the total is, not the spread. Elementals are everything compared to Physicals.

 

and tbh i didn't think Flux was that great before. it was infact Armor Ignoring - but it's Damage Output wasn't that high, so it was a slow way to kill, even if it did ignore that Armor.

personal preference, of course.

 

but i think you're blowing Flux a little bit out of proportion. i don't disagree but it isn't as useless as you make it out to be.

[IamSalva]

Flux has nothing over Synapse, exept 5m range. Thats a Big Problem imho its really just a Synapse with lots less DPS.

 

And yes, Physical damage Typ does not matter a lot, but its another+ for the synapse that it can make combo elements easier with its base Electric damage...