Update 11.6.0: Stealth Nerf To Continuous-Fire Weapons/synapse?!

[Hadronox]

Strange! Not a word from DE about this.

I even saw some of today's Livesteam and not word was mentioned about this. Are they even aware of this problem?

[Eyeless]

Bumping, please fix our continuous weapons DE. That doesn't mean give us slightly higher numbers, that means revert this change entirely as it was completely fine before.

[LazyKnight]

Strange! Not a word from DE about this.

I even saw some of today's Livesteam and not word was mentioned about this. Are they even aware of this problem?

It was discussed in the first few minutes of the livestream. Rebecca said it will be under review, the change was supposed to be a visual change only.

Edited January 10, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Hadronox]

It was discussed in the first few minutes of the livestream. Rebecca said it will be under review, the change was supposed to be a visual change only.

 

Really? I missed the start of the livesteam, so this is great news .. let's just hope!!

[Raijinmeister]

broken as intended...

[Eliard]

Has anyone tested this with the Embolist?

 

I primarily use the Embolist for Viral proc, so I can't speak for the damage; the biggest thing I noticed post U11.6 is that, like OP said, the proc rate is completely screwed now. Before this update, I could fire it into a Vortex of enemies and procs would be flying everywhere from beginning to end. Now, I can aim at said Vortex and completely kill everything in it, and I'd consider myself lucky to see ONE proc.

 

I feel like this needs an enormous fix. If it's that bad for the Embolist, whose biggest redeeming quality is the high proc rate (for a continuous fire weapon) of 10%, then what about Ignis's 1%?

 

 

At least Ignis can actually hit things beyond spitting distance. :/

Edited January 10, 2014 by Eliard

[Irfir]

It is totally broken. Let's wait for the patch.

[keskejesuis]

If this is true, I am very upset.  I don't understand why they did this at all.  I never had trouble understanding anything about the damage.  Shoot stuff >stuff dies.  Put on mod.  Shoot stuff > stuff dies faster.  HOW IS THAT COMPLICATED??  Sometimes I think DE needs to learn the value of the phrase "Well Enough Alone."

+1

[Pure]

glad i forma'd my soma instead.

[KazVN]

use tap tap instead of hold...problem solved. with 100% crit chance, all dam r yellow. 

 

about crit chance >100%.... i use synapse not too long to feel it....

[Hadronox]

use tap tap instead of hold...problem solved. with 100% crit chance, all dam r yellow. 

 

about crit chance >100%.... i use synapse not too long to feel it....

 

We tried testing with tap tap (single shots) and continuous fire (using the weapon as it's supposed to be!) and we were getting a lot of white hits with 100%/125% crit chance. This was with being host as well as guest. It made no difference. It is clearly different from pre-patch when it used to actually crit 100% of the time.

 

Having said that, when using single shots the damage displayed seems to be fairly accurate anyway when compared to the damage the mobs seem to be receiving. Even if you do not trust the new displayed numbers, you do not have to rely on them to know if you are critting or not when you have a x5 or more crit multiplier, i.e. it shows on the hp bar of the mobs: dealing a bit of damage to the mob and needing several hits to kill it  vs  1-shotting it. 

[Inez]

We tried testing with tap tap (single shots) and continuous fire (using the weapon as it's supposed to be!) and we were getting a lot of white hits with 100%/125% crit chance. This was with being host as well as guest. It made no difference. It is clearly different from pre-patch when it used to actually crit 100% of the time.

 

Having said that, when using single shots the damage displayed seems to be fairly accurate anyway when compared to the damage the mobs seem to be receiving. Even if you do not trust the new displayed numbers, you do not have to rely on them to know if you are critting or not when you have a x5 or more crit multiplier, i.e. it shows on the hp bar of the mobs: dealing a bit of damage to the mob and needing several hits to kill it  vs  1-shotting it.

In all of mine and my clan's testing 100% crit = all crits with Synapse. If you're not the host, sometimes crits show up as white, a bug thats been around a long time. I have tons of fraps clips with all yellow numbers.

Basically you're saying that your version of warframe works differently than mine. Which I would say is hard to believe, but DE has had plenty of weird bugs in the past.

[Hadronox]

In all of mine and my clan's testing 100% crit = all crits with Synapse. If you're not the host, sometimes crits show up as white, a bug thats been around a long time. I have tons of fraps clips with all yellow numbers.

Basically you're saying that your version of warframe works differently than mine. Which I would say is hard to believe, but DE has had plenty of weird bugs in the past.

 

So you are saying they are crits but show up as white. However as I said before, you can see the impact of your shots on a mob, i.e:

 

- a white shot would deal, say, 1/4 of a mobs HP and the mob would need several of those to die.

- a crit would 1-shot the same mob, every time, especially when you have a lot of crit multi.

 

When I shoot a mob, I can guess fairly well if the shot was a crit or not based on the damage dealt, without having to look at the numbers. I do check the numbers to see if there is an discrepancy though.

 

Also, I tested it with a couple of friends, so it was not just me. I wish I still had my PC to fraps myself in a solo game to illustrate this. Maybe I can take some pics soon.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Hadronox

[Dr.DMT]

God they need to fix this. How hard would it be to simply revert the changes until they figure out this new pointless system anyway? I seriously have no interest in playing until they do as the synapse is by far my favorite gun.

[Instinction]

THERE WAS NO "STEALTH" NERF. There wasn't even a nerf actually they just changed how the damage 'ticks' on continuous fire weapons, and yes for ALL continuous fire weapons. In layman's terms they basically changed the damage from doing quick little tick to larger slower ticks. This is not a "nerf" per se` it is a change in the firing mechanic.

 

"- Changed logic that determines visual representation of damage mods on continuous-fire weapons (eg: Synapse, Ignis, etc).

The frequency of damage numbers used to be limited by using a minimum damage threshold. Since damage mods increase the rate at which damage accumulates, this would cause damage to be inflicted more often though each damage event would not necessarily be larger. This led to people thinking the mods did nothing because they didn't notice the increased rate at which numbers would appear (an easy mistake for low level damage mods). Similarly, headshots would make numbers appear more often but not necessarily create bigger numbers.

Now continuous fire weapons now limit the frequency of damage numbers by using a minimum time between impacts, regardless of how much damage has accumulated. This gives us a lot more control and should make things more obvious for players who are applying damage mods (it's easier to notice that numbers are 5% larger in magnitude vs being generated 5% faster)”

 

That's the explanation of what has been done to continuous fire weapons FROM THE BUILD NOTES. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/161101-update-1160/

 

DE doesn't "stealth" nerf weaponry and there is no reason for them too. Pay attention to the build notes when you notice some major change in something and read them all before making accusations.

 

P.S. I guess I should add, before people start going off on me, that if there really was a "nerf" to the guns, I would think that it would be an unintentional error by DE in the coding process and an issue as such will most likely be fixed Soon™.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Instinction

[Urza1234]

THERE WAS NO "STEALTH" NERF. There wasn't even a nerf actually they just changed how the damage 'ticks' on continuous fire weapons, and yes for ALL continuous fire weapons. In layman's terms they basically changed the damage from doing quick little tick to larger slower ticks. This is not a "nerf" per se` it is a change in the firing mechanic.

 

"- Changed logic that determines visual representation of damage mods on continuous-fire weapons (eg: Synapse, Ignis, etc).

The frequency of damage numbers used to be limited by using a minimum damage threshold. Since damage mods increase the rate at which damage accumulates, this would cause damage to be inflicted more often though each damage event would not necessarily be larger. This led to people thinking the mods did nothing because they didn't notice the increased rate at which numbers would appear (an easy mistake for low level damage mods). Similarly, headshots would make numbers appear more often but not necessarily create bigger numbers.

Now continuous fire weapons now limit the frequency of damage numbers by using a minimum time between impacts, regardless of how much damage has accumulated. This gives us a lot more control and should make things more obvious for players who are applying damage mods (it's easier to notice that numbers are 5% larger in magnitude vs being generated 5% faster)”

 

That's the explanation of what has been done to continuous fire weapons FROM THE BUILD NOTES. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/161101-update-1160/

 

DE doesn't "stealth" nerf weaponry and there is no reason for them too. Pay attention to the build notes when you notice some major change in something and read them all before making accusations.

 

P.S. I guess I should add, before people start going off on me, that if there really was a "nerf" to the guns, I would think that it would be an unintentional error by DE in the coding process and an issue as such will most likely be fixed Soon™.

 

Instinction should probably read the thread before accusing people in the thread of not reading build notes. The title is certainly alarmist, but forum titles tend to have to be to garner popularity. The original post does suggest the nerf might be intentional, but it also suggests other possibilities and never makes a direct accusation. Literally no one else on the thread so far even suggests that DE actually intentionally stealth nerfed these weapons, we are all pretty much clear on the fact that DE made a mistake and we're just making noise so they fix it faster. 

 

Edited January 11, 2014 by Urza1234

[-Kittens-]

Has anyone tested this with the Embolist? What's confusing me is that I thought this was supposed to be purely visual and help players monitor their damage easier, not actually change how the weapon works.

 

All three of the CF weapons are completely #*($%%@. Embolist has the same issues, and literally does a 10th of the damage it used to.

[-Kittens-]

It was discussed in the first few minutes of the livestream. Rebecca said it will be under review, the change was supposed to be a visual change only.

 

 

Except that's 100% complete and total BS. I've got a fully forma'd synapse and am now running out of ammo midway through mid-level (15-22) content. The guns aren't doing  even close to the damage they were, period, and it's instantly noticeable

Edited January 11, 2014 by -Kittens-

[BlueSilkMetallic]

since that patch all continous weapons are just no fun anymore.

12 formas wasted.

Not realy motivated to play the game any longer.

Because I BET if I would forma lets say the tigris it will be broken in some patches. (or any other weapon .... or frame ..... or even skill (ember))

 

I realy loved the game.

But with all that changes with every patch .....

 

Hope the game would become fun again but at the moment it moves in a realy bad direction.

[LazyKnight]

Except that's 100% complete and total BS. I've got a fully forma'd synapse and am now running out of ammo midway through mid-level (15-22) content. The guns aren't doing  even close to the damage they were, period, and it's instantly noticeable

My multiple forma synapse it worthless now too, I do not like this change in the slightest.

Edited January 11, 2014 by LazyKnight

[DHKany]

Fixing something that didnt need fixing in the first place.......

 

and bugs like arsenal screen locking out still exist....

 

I don't normally trash DE but man, seriously? 

[Instinction]

Instinction should probably read the thread before accusing people in the thread of not reading build notes. The title is certainly alarmist, but forum titles tend to have to be to garner popularity. The original post does suggest the nerf might be intentional, but it also suggests other possibilities and never makes a direct accusation. Literally no one else on the thread so far even suggests that DE actually intentionally stealth nerfed these weapons, we are all pretty much clear on the fact that DE made a mistake and we're just making noise so they fix it faster. 

 

You're right I didn't read the thread, I just skimmed it, my reply was directed specifically towards the OP. Though I didn't exactly see anyone else make mention of this either. All I saw were people complaining about how it did get nerfed.

Also you should know OP changed his post from when I originally posted mine so his sounds less offensive/accusing.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Instinction

[Inez]

You're right I didn't read the thread, I just skimmed it, my reply was directed specifically towards the OP. Though I didn't exactly see anyone else make mention of this either. All I saw were people complaining about how it did get nerfed.

Also you should know OP changed his post from when I originally posted mine so his sounds less offensive/accusing.

While people are exaggerating wildly (evidently that's something you're supposed to do in video game forums) having to wait a full third of a second for any damage from continuous fire and only having damage accumulate every third of a second after that, is a pretty noticeable nerf. And then there's the proc rate nerf, which I can't quantify, but it is definitely much reduced.

These might be unintentional changes, which is why we're bringing them to DE's attention.

I'm curious, why would post in a thread about continuous fire weapons if you haven't even been using them?

Edited January 11, 2014 by Inez

[Justin_Case001]

In my post on the continuous conundrum, I pointed out how if you are shooting an enemy with the flux/synapse, and you let off the trigger, the damage will immediately resolve.  Basically, this means you get a damage tick as soon as you let off.  So, what this translates to is that if you quickly click a low level enemy once with a high level rifle, it will die faster than if you hold the trigger down, due to this new delay in damage ticks.

 

I just took an unmodded synapse to venus for some additional testing, and discovered something very depressing.  Enemies now die faster if you spam click the trigger as fast as you can, rather than holding the trigger down.  Yep, you heard right, continuous rifles just became semi-auto.  How's that for depressing?

 

The reason for this is simple.  Evidently, the damage ticks now occur 3x/sec.  By spamming the trigger, I click at a rate of 5x/sec.  The enemies' health should be depleting at the same time either way, but because I get more damage ticks if I spam, the enemies will die faster.  That is ridiculous.

 

Now, apparently DE knows about this, and I guess they are working on it.  So, all of us continuous people are praying it will get fixed soon.  I'm confident they will fix it.  They usually do fix this kind of stuff.  The question is, why did they have to go and break it to begin with?

[LazyKnight]

While people are exaggerating wildly (evidently that's something you're supposed to do in video game forums) having to wait a full third of a second for any damage from continuous fire and only having damage accumulate every third of a second after that, is a pretty noticeable nerf. And then there's the proc rate nerf, which I can't quantify, but it is definitely much reduced.

When I tested it for 2 hours: The test was just running low level and mid level corpus survival. The proc rate over the course of a 100 shots fired when used as a auto weapon could not have been higher than 1-2% of those 100 rounds. When used as a semi the proc rate was noticeably higher(still not what it was pre update), but it was unclear if the multi shot mod was even contributing to an increased proc per second.

 

I used both malignant force and hammer shot and it didn't notably increase the amounts of visible proc occurrence. The delay in summing damage could have been causing the proc to not occur because the NPC was technically dead, but even so it still happened when testing on durable grineer heave Napalm units. Synapse listed proc rate might as well be changed in the Ui to 1% so people do not have any false expectations.

 

I should have done video testing so my tests were in a more scientific manor, but It was painfully evident the only way to use synapse was as a semi auto weapon to force it to sum the number early.

 

Mods I used during tests:

 

Serration 10

Heavy caliber 10

Split chamber 5

Vital sense 5

Point strike 5

Hammer shot 3

Malignant force  3

Cyro round 5

Edited January 12, 2014 by LazyKnight