An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[f3llyn]

I can't tell if you're on the same page as me or missed the first half of the discussion. I'm saying the experiences of the veteran players are unique to those who are in the middle or beginning of the game. Some people were arguing veterans have the same experience as anyone with 10 hours and others were saying veterans are putting themselves on a pedestal. I'm saying everyone is important, including us. We feel a lot of design decisions are catered towards midgame players, but everyone has their own individual gripes and opinions so, as I have stated, I can only speak for a few of us with any confidence. On one front I have to justify why the distinction matters, and on another I have to remind that this group of players is one of several which are all important. One that also feels neglected in some sense.

 

How can the experience for veteran players be unique when there is no definition for what it takes to be a veteran player? You have to figure out the one before you can say the other is true.

 

This is the crux of the issue for me. Outside of knowing things DE has said and done in the past the "experience" of a "veteran" is not unique. And to know the things that DE has said and done in the past you don't even have to play the game. It's all documented.

 

So yes, in effect, you guys are in fact setting yourselves up on a pedestal and asking to be treated special.

Edited January 16, 2014 by f3llyn

[Ced23Ric]

So yes, in effect, you guys are in fact setting yourselves up on a pedestal and asking to be treated special.

 

It is inconsequential. A single person making a thread is just the same as a group. The group has founded itself, based on arbitrary factors, and the discussion about those factors is 100% irrelevant to the body of their intents. Of course, some are naturally putting themselves into the limelight of elitess, but even that is inconsequential and irrelevant for the purpose they have put forth. A discussion about the moral qualities of a group declaring themselves veterans based on blurred factors is only detracting from the very clear goal, which is commendable.

It doesn't matter who says Warframe is in need of improvement.

It is.

[Bakercompany86]

How can the experience for veteran players be unique when there is no definition for what it takes to be a veteran player? You have to figure out the one before you can say the other is true.

 

This is the crux of the issue for me. Outside of knowing things DE has said and done in the past the "experience" of a "veteran" is not unique. And to know the things that DE has said and done in the past you don't even have to play the game. It's all documented.

 

So yes, in effect, you guys are in fact setting yourselves up on a pedestal and asking to be treated special.

 

 

That's actually a good point.  I mean within the first 20 hours of dedicated gameplay you can honestly see everything this game has to offer as far as missions and content.  No you won't have every weapon and frame, but that's not what we're talking about here.

 

 

Having said that, most games that last 20 hours are usually great games and we're satisfied with that amount of play time.  But Warframe was clearly not designed for that to be the stopping point.

 

Grinding in itself isn't bad.  They just need to make it actually fun.  

[VegetableBasket]

How can the experience for veteran players be unique when there is no definition for what it takes to be a veteran player? You have to figure out the one before you can say the other is true.

 

This is the crux of the issue for me. Outside of knowing things DE has said and done in the past the "experience" of a "veteran" is not unique. And to know the things that DE has said and done in the past you don't even have to play the game. It's all documented.

 

So yes, in effect, you guys are in fact setting yourselves up on a pedestal and asking to be treated special.

I will just respond by saying a senior citizen is not really defined anywhere but generally means someone from the age of 50 to 65 or older. Senior citizens have a different outlook and life than teenagers because they spend their time in a different world and had the opportunity to see it develop. Both senior citizens and teenagers can be wise or idiotic but they are both important and life should not be bad for either one of them.

[Bazools]

Nobody is saying only veterans voice should be heard, we are only saying that there some things newer players can't have experienced and as such can't have an opinion on those things. Or do you go around telling older people to stop elevating themselves because your experience of world war 2 is just as valid as theirs?

Thanks for the previous reply Krull. I was starting to get a bit confused on all that subject of veteranism (if that is even a word). lol

 

I started to think about the Veterans thing not only because i wanted to post here but also because i really did not know what it meant to be a veteran in Warframe, now i have a better idea. 

 

P.S. This thread is probably the best thing to happen in this community for months now, well after all that droptables fiasco i mean and just like Ced23Ric said a few posts before, this game is need of improvement, it is.  

Edited January 16, 2014 by Bazools

[f3llyn]

It is inconsequential. A single person making a thread is just the same as a group. The group has founded itself, based on arbitrary factors, and the discussion about those factors is 100% irrelevant to the body of their intents. Of course, some are naturally putting themselves into the limelight of elitess, but even that is inconsequential and irrelevant for the purpose they have put forth. A discussion about the moral qualities of a group declaring themselves veterans based on blurred factors is only detracting from the very clear goal, which is commendable.

It doesn't matter who says Warframe is in need of improvement.

It is.

 

That I can agree with completely.

[matto]

I wish we could make a round table, a think tank with most of the clans in the Warframe Universe.

 

Unfortunately, we don't have the structure to do this, most of us don't have a clan forum.

 

In our clans, we all have vets and new players. It would be, maybe, more relevant.

[f3llyn]

I will just respond by saying a senior citizen is not really defined anywhere but generally means someone from the age of 50 to 65 or older. Senior citizens have a different outlook and life than teenagers because they spend their time in a different world and had the opportunity to see it develop. Both senior citizens and teenagers can be wise or idiotic but they are both important and life should not be bad for either one of them.

 

 

There is actually a widely used definition for what it takes to be a senior citizen in both the UK and US. So yeah..

 

We'll run with your analogy though. So how are the things senior citizens experience as teenagers (remember 45 years ago computers weren't a thing, nor were cell phones, ipods, laptops, etc) relevant to teenagers today? They aren't, pure and simple.

 

The world is far more connected now than it was even 10 years ago making the experience of kids today different from kids even 15 years ago not to mention 45 years. This is where your analogy falls flat.

 

Using this analogy of senior citizens it appears to me that the feedback from teenagers would be far more relevant to this discussion.

 

And finally, age does not mean wisdom. It just means you have lived longer than others.

Edited January 16, 2014 by f3llyn

[Ced23Ric]

I wish we could make a round table, a think tank with most of the clans in the Warframe Universe.

 

You will never create a forum of peers by using any element of distinction, just as you will never create a forum of the mentally swift by allowing them to declare themselves. Think tanks work on invite-only basis, with preselections by people who have a good idea about who qualifies. Any openminded democracy when establishing a think tank sullies the results and efficiency.

 

There is actually a widely used definition for what it takes to be a senior citizen. So yeah..

 

I think you can drop it here. Your point is understood. This offtopic agenda does not further the ongoing discussion, nor does it help.

 

_

I trust most if not all have seen this document here at least once, correct?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlsyEla_uEOUdERwRURQYnA2cDRUZnVDTlUtOW4tV2c&usp=drive_web#gid=0

This is a tracker of all elements ever spoken of by DE in Livestreams. I suggest simply reading the entry for the first Livestream:

 

Edited January 16, 2014 by Ced23Ric

[f3llyn]

You will never create a forum of peers by using any element of distinction, just as you will never create a forum of the mentally swift by allowing them to declare themselves. Think tanks work on invite-only basis, with preselections by people who have a good idea about who qualifies. Any openminded democracy when establishing a think tank sullies the results and efficiency.

 

 

I think you can drop it here. Your point is understood. This offtopic agenda does not further the ongoing discussion, nor does it help.

 

_

I trust most if not all have seen this document here at least once, correct?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlsyEla_uEOUdERwRURQYnA2cDRUZnVDTlUtOW4tV2c&usp=drive_web#gid=0

This is a tracker of all elements ever spoken of by DE in Livestreams. I suggest simply reading the entry for the first Livestream:

 

 

 

Request accepted.

[Bakercompany86]

If you allow player generated content, like merging Halo Forge with the system from NWN....problems will be solved.

 

 

Look at Dota/League.

[matto]

Well, it was more based on the fact that clan vs clan was supposed to be the endgame of Warframe (see VegetableBasket's awesome document), as long as the "core" of Warframe with the possibility to start missions from the dojo etc.

 

You have all kind of players in clans, except one = people not willing to join a clan. Which could be represented as a group of players without any kind of allegiance.

 

Anyway...

Edited January 16, 2014 by matto

[VegetableBasket]

There is actually a widely used definition for what it takes to be a senior citizen. So yeah..

Its not an arbitrary number with a strict definition. I could decide arbitrarily what a senior or veteran is, as you have (you said closed beta or older), but it doesn't really matter because drawing the line a bit further or back is meaningless. We're talking about what's wrong with the game and using our point of reference as people who have seen a lot of it unwrap as a means of informing our feedback.

Maybe veteran is the wrong term. Maybe collstro could've picked hardcore players, or endgame players, or whatever, I don't think the label matters. We're people who have done what there is to do and are frustrated in some capacity by the way things have gone.

Edit: I'm on a phone and my posts take a while to write, I'm glad to drop it here, I agree with what Cedric has written and for the most part it doesn't matter.

Edited January 16, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[f3llyn]

If you allow player generated content, like merging Halo Forge with the system from NWN....problems will be solved.

 

 

Look at Dota/League.

 

While that would be awesome I don't think it would work very will with Warframe. Synicing games is already a big issue that would be made even worse if they had ensure everyone was running the same addons.

Edited January 16, 2014 by f3llyn

[Bakercompany86]

While that would be awesome I don't think it would work very will with Warframe. Synicing games is already a big issue that would be made even worse if they had ensure everyone was running the same addons.

 

It doesn't have to be super complicated to function.  I'm sure a balance can be found that allows players to place the tilesets how they wish, and set the AI behavior (if any is present) to certain levels.

 

Even just a series of pre-canned AI definitions for the player to choose from would work.  Without the need for full blown scripting.

[f3llyn]

Its not an arbitrary number with a strict definition. I could decide arbitrarily what a senior or veteran is, as you have (you said closed beta or older), but it doesn't really matter because drawing the line a bit further or back is meaningless. We're talking about what's wrong with the game and using our point of reference as people who have seen a lot of it unwrap as a means of informing our feedback.

Maybe veteran is the wrong term. Maybe collstro could've picked hardcore players, or endgame players, or whatever, I don't think the label matters. We're people who have done what there is to do and are frustrated in some capacity by the way things have gone.

Edit: I'm on a phone and my posts take a while to write, I'm glad to drop it here, I agree with what Cedric has written and for the most part it doesn't matter.

 

The fact that you have to define yourself is the problem. It leads to a divided community however good your intentions are. I hope you can finally see my point.

 

This is my last post on that topic.

Edited January 16, 2014 by f3llyn

[MDRLOz]

As I posted on page 30. You call yourself long term players.This anyone can decide if they are or not. You don't add in who you are or what you have seen or experienced just that you have supported the game and will probably continue to do so. That is important, because we are one community seeking to get improvements in the game.

[VegetableBasket]

As I posted on page 30. You call yourself long term players.This anyone can decide if they are or not. You don't add in who you are or what you have seen or experienced just that you have supported the game and will probably continue to do so. That is important, because we are one community seeking to get improvements in the game.

That "will continue to do so" is highly dependent on if things change for the better, and if DE checks what the community wants and takes what we say to heart. None of us know if it will happen, but a lot of us aren't blindly following at this point. That should be made clear and collstro said it in the first post.

I have a little more faith in DE than a lot of people I've spoken to, but I really can't see statements like "we're working on it" and believe it when there is no work to be shown. The animation, art, and level teams are constantly showcasing A+ work on the streams, but we don't see progress made on lore or endgame, we just get "yeah, it's coming" every two weeks since livestream 1. Just check my spreadsheet.

[skynexus]

i have sad news to report i am a victim of a dying clan i first noticed it when few started to show up then it got worse when i seen things like (last login 23 days ago) only the people i talked with on skype played but this past week and today every time i log in there never is someone online it almost feels like a wasteland when visiting the dojo i can imagine a tumble weed rolling away down the long hallways hopefully they come back if there is a proper update other then weapons to lv up dont want to be offensive but it just seems too repetitive   

[Raze4573]

Noticed this thread today and thought I could support the open letter. Been playing since the the closed beta and I gotta agree with the OP arguments.
Communication sucks, the issue couldve been at least band aid fixed with some sort of chat on the website so we could contact the devs.
And yes, wheres the lore, wheres the progress, wheres the content? All we're getting is some one or two weapons from the Tenno Reinforcements, which is nice but its not enough.
While the game is in my opinion AAA level....come on DE, get a grip, even if you dont give us 5 gigs of new content, at least make some sort of real time communication for news/bugs/event notifications.

[MDRLOz]

That "will continue to do so" is highly dependent on if things change for the better, and if DE checks what the community wants and takes what we say to heart. None of us know if it will happen, but a lot of us aren't blindly following at this point. That should be made clear and collstro said it in the first post.

I have a little more faith in DE than a lot of people I've spoken to, but I really can't see statements like "we're working on it" and believe it when there is no work to be shown. The animation, art, and level teams are constantly showcasing A+ work on the streams, but we don't see progress made on lore or endgame, we just get "yeah, it's coming" every two weeks since livestream 1. Just check my spreadsheet.

I would say you have made big progress, live stream 20 felt like a shocker for me. The whole thing felt like a bucket of cold water. Also the comment in yesterday's patch note at least shows they have acknowledge it. However as you rightly say it is now dependent on things changing. They have bought themselves some more time in my opinion. Now let's see what they do with it. Edited January 16, 2014 by MDRLOz

[Darkseal]

700+ hours............ agree with 70% of this.

 

endgame needed beyond doing a 2+ hour endless mission type.

In game interactive lore needed.

Infested need to have a home on the start chart.

 

 

Grind...50/50... i "understand" why they do what they do, but a HINT where to get new stuff would be *&^%$ nice.

Systemic changes: meh, release them into the wild and see what sticks. Change this late in the game is good (even the bad, it makes you rethink how to play)

Communication and events.... I don't care. I think they do give enough notice and like seeing things that are to come 1,2,3,7 months in the future!

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I would say you have made big progress, live stream 20 felt like a shocker for me. The whole thing felt like a bucket of cold water. Also the comment in yesterday's patch note at least shows they have acknowledge it. However as you rightly say it is now dependent on things changing. They have bought themselves some more time in my opinion. Now let's see what they do with it.

They acknowledge plenty of stuff, the problem is actually seeing anything done afterwards.

[Bakercompany86]

I would say you have made big progress, live stream 20 felt like a shocker for me. The whole thing felt like a bucket of cold water. Also the comment in yesterday's patch note at least shows they have acknowledge it. However as you rightly say it is now dependent on things changing. They have bought themselves some more time in my opinion. Now let's see what they do with it.

 

I read between the lines a bit during Livestream 20.  What I noticed is when end game and longevity is brought up to those guys, they get very visibly nervous.

 

I don't think they know what to do about end game yet.  And I think that's why they get so nervous.  

[Kaian-a-coel]

Did you see how they thought that that one question about "not knowing what they're doing or why they're doing it" from Rebecca was about them?

 

I don't think they know what they're doing at all.