De, Would You Finally Remove The Slash Proc From Enemies Please?

[Riccoshot]

Unfortunatly the bleed proc on enemies is about useless, because the bleed on them is miniscule and you dont want to let them (or they just simply dont) live for the bleed to kill them.

Not so useless, but situational (vs who you're playing, where you're playing, do you use Smoke Screen/Invisibility (or maybe you have Trinity on your team) so you simply don't care about mobs staying alive and let them bleed out.

Slash proc damage is dealing the same amount of damage the hit that proc'ed did (affected by all kind of modificators).

 

A random video, i believe i recorded it somewhere around second version of Damage 2.0

[VKhaun]

No. Balance makes more sense with overpowered enemies, than it does with HP sponge enemies. The community will always find something to disagree with in the design. Seeing threads focus on how enemies do too much damage with various effects is absolutely music to my ears. Sorry you had a bad time, but I am hoping the reply from DE is to use the mod system to solve your issue, because this is the best possible place and the best possible complaint to have IMO.

 

 

 

Mod1

+X% chance to resist incoming procs

 

Mod2

Blocking stops all incoming procs, +X% stamina cost.

 

Mod3

Immune to procs while shields are above X%

 

Mod4

X% chance to absorb incoming procs. Procs are released at 50% HP and hit all enemies within Y meters.

[shut]

Mod1

+X% chance to resist incoming procs

 

Mod2

Blocking stops all incoming procs, +X% stamina cost.

 

Mod3

Immune to procs while shields are above X%

 

Mod4

X% chance to absorb incoming procs. Procs are released at 50% HP and hit all enemies within Y meters.

Mods 1 and 3 should be combined, and mods 2 and 4 should be combined. None of them are worth using alone.

 

Honestly, though, this is a broken game mechanic. DE shouldn't be attempting to "solve" it by releasing a bunch of bandaid mods that provide what should be a basic thing that every player should innately have, like what they attempted to do with blocking. Nobody should be getting one-shotted by a level 15 Eviscerator, period.

I, and many other players, am going to be incredibly angry if they do this.

Edited January 20, 2014 by SortaRandom

[leonvision]

DE seems to firmly believe the bleeding proc (DoT, ignore shields) is a good mechanic, i raised this discussion and even got a comment from DE_Rebecca, and she "they're looking into it" but that was over a month ago. i highly doubt DE will EVER remove bleeding proc, as sad as it is.

[Rettycombine]

Allow us to purchase bandages so we can tend to our bleeding injuries. 

 

Beans too. We need beans.

Cheeki Breeki.

[VKhaun]

Mods 1 and 3 should be combined, and mods 2 and 4 should be combined. None of them are worth using alone.

 

Honestly, though, this is a broken game mechanic. DE shouldn't be attempting to "solve" it by releasing a bunch of bandaid mods that provide what should be a basic thing that every player should innately have, like what they attempted to do with blocking. Nobody should be getting one-shotted by a level 15 Eviscerator, period.

I, and many other players, am going to be incredibly angry if they do this.

 

Exaggeration and hyperbole are not arguments. If something needs to do less proc damage, fine, that is of course a perfectly valid opinion, but if you base that opinion off of the idea that you should be able to defend yourself against the whole game with one defense type, that's just not reasonable. There is no precedent for that in anything DE has done or said.

 

Adding actions and mods to counter them would add gameplay. Blocking is new gameplay to stop a new challenge. A mod to turn them into offense is new risk vs reward. Mods that prevent them conditionally create gameplay in that you must maintain that condition. This is how I want to see the game move forward.

 

New challenge = new gameplay.

 

DE's mistake, in my view, was adding the challenge before adding the gameplay.

[shut]

Exaggeration and hyperbole are not arguments. If something needs to do less proc damage, fine, that is of course a perfectly valid opinion, but if you base that opinion off of the idea that you should be able to defend yourself against the whole game with one defense type, that's just not reasonable. There is no precedent for that in anything DE has done or said.

 

Adding actions and mods to counter them would add gameplay. Blocking is new gameplay to stop a new challenge. A mod to turn them into offense is new risk vs reward. Mods that prevent them conditionally create gameplay in that you must maintain that condition. This is how I want to see the game move forward.

 

New challenge = new gameplay.

 

DE's mistake, in my view, was adding the challenge before adding the gameplay.

Maybe you need to experience the proc system a bit more.

As I said, a maxed-out Frame can get oneshotted by a level 15 Eviscerator. One. Shotted. This should never happen in any game, unless it's an attack that will never take any player by surprise (e.g. a twenty-foot-tall ogre boss's slow-&#! hammer swing). You can't go and say "Well, just dodge the projectile", because, like it or not, it will happen. You will get hit by a sawblade every so often, and, if it procs, you're dead. Unless by pure chance you have a damage-negation ability or a plethora of health orbs around, there is nothing that you can do to avoid it.

 

Getting hit by a basic attack has a small chance to be very, very punishing, with nothing you can do to avoid it. Challenge is when you die if you don't react fast enough. This is not "challenge". It's a broken system. 

Edited January 20, 2014 by SortaRandom

[VKhaun]

-

 

You're exaggerating the current situation and pretending that makes you right about other points. It doesn't. The best case scenario if you were 100% correct is that it means it needs a nerf, not that it is broken and needs removal or rework. The challenge of occasional procs that go through shields is reasonable and adds depth. The potential for creating gameplay and build diversity is very real and very interesting even if they didn't get the numbers perfect yet.

Edited January 20, 2014 by VKhaun

[shut]

You're exaggerating the current situation

 

Exaggerating? You go ahead and test those Eviscerator procs yourself, young man.

 

 

and pretending that makes you right about other points. It doesn't. The best case scenario if you were 100% correct is that it means it needs a nerf, not removal or rework. The challenge of occasional procs that go through shields is reasonable and adds depth. The potential for creating gameplay and build diversity is very real and very interesting even if they didn't get the numbers perfect yet.

 

 

"The challenge of occasional procs that go through shields is reasonable and adds depth".

 

Ahem, no. It is not reasonable, and it does not add depth. It defies real-world logic about as much as the old "We should have a tileset in the sun with level 100 lava monsters!" threads.

I'll repeat, you have no way of guaranteeing zero health loss on every Frame that you play without stealth (which is impossible on many game modes). This isn't Maplestory, where you can just restore your health with a button press, and this isn't a PVP-based FPS game, where dying every few minutes is the norm and to be expected from the best of players. Health in Warframe was a precious resource from the start; that's why you've got quick-recovering shields in front of it in the first place. You will get hit. Shields allow you to retreat from battle to recover, then hop back in.

 

The procs are about as easy to avoid as shield damage-- that is, impossible. If you're taking shield damage (read: you will), then there's a chance that you'll take massive health damage as well, with nothing that you can do about it at all.

Your only way to truly avoid RNG-based health damage is to have a damage-negating ability at all times in battle. Your only way to recover from RNG-based health damage is to pick up RNG-based health orbs. If you are unlucky, you will die. No way around it.

 

 

I repeat myself in saying that if you're taking devastating effects that are impossible to avoid, then it's not a problem with the player, it's a problem with the game. "Challenge" implies that it can be avoided by player skill. Bleed procs do not fall under this definition.

Edited January 20, 2014 by SortaRandom

[VKhaun]

Exaggerating? You go ahead and test those Eviscerator procs yourself, young man.

 

I'm not going to be baited into this nonsense where you call a frame with no health mods or health defense/sustain a maxed out frame and pretend you're being reasonable. Plus there's plenty of hyperbole in your posts besides that which you can't defend. 

 

You are just trying to write off every single health mechanic, strategy and ability in the game so you can say there's nothing you can do about a slash proc. That PEBKAC, and is not an issue with DE. Nothing in this game, or any game for that matter, makes sense or is balanced if you assume every counter and related mechanic is moot.

 

You think the shield strategy of taking hits and backing off is the only viable one for your playstyle? Okay, fine. That means you need mods or capabilities to continue to facilitate that against different types of enemies, but if you're ignoring the capabilities you already have and calling more capabilities bandaids that you don't want then there's just no where for this conversation to go. You'll just have to deal.

 

 

 

 

This isn't Maplestory, where you can just restore your health with a button press, 

 

I lol'd... can anyone guess why? :P

Edited January 20, 2014 by VKhaun

[shut]

I'm not going to be baited into this nonsense where you call a frame with no health mods or health defense a maxed out frame and pretend you're being reasonable, and there's plenty of hyperbole in your posts besides that which you can't defend. You are writing off every single health mechanic, strategy and ability in the game and then saying there's nothing you can do about a slash proc. PEBKAC, not an issue with DE.

You did read the parts about damage-negating abilities, right? You know, when I said that you can use them to avoid procs?

 

I'm saying that you can't go justifying procs with "Oh, ____ can avoid damage with _____!" because there are frames who have no such capability. I don't care if your precious Rhino is immune to procs, and I don't care if your Nova can stay behind cover and blow the map up with MPrime and a hitscan weapon.

I'd like to see you try to avoid proc damage with Nekros, for example. Or, to be a bit more reasonable, Excalibur or Volt.

 

 

I lol'd.

Doesn't even look like you're willing to have a rational debate at this point.

I'm going to end the conversation here, because we seem to have toed past the border of reasoned conversation and into the world of mindless flaming.

Edited January 20, 2014 by SortaRandom

[VKhaun]

You did read the parts about damage-negating abilities, right? You know, when I said that you can use them to avoid procs?

 

I'm saying that you can't go justifying procs with "Oh, ____ can avoid damage with _____!" because there are frames who have no such capability. I don't care if your precious Rhino is immune to procs, and I don't care if your Nova can stay behind cover and blow the map up with MPrime and a hitscan weapon.

I'd like to see you try to avoid proc damage with Nekros, for example. Or, to be a bit more reasonable, Excalibur or Volt.

I've been on the internet too long to be baited into these troll arguments where you try to mandate an assumption. I am not going to follow you into a disussion where we pretend ignoring HP mods is a 'maxed out frame' and I am not following you into a subjective discussion about how frames are used where we pretend warframe abilities are the only defense.

 

There are mods, packs, frames, tactics and then there are poor choices. Choosing to use no tactics, ignore packs and not equip mods while insisting to play a frame that doesn't protect you is a poor choice. That's not a flame. That's just the way it is. It's like showing the whole poker table your hand and then calling clubs overpowered when you lose. You are just playing badly and recklessly.

 

 

 

Doesn't even look like you're willing to have a rational debate at this point.

I'm going to end the conversation here, because we seem to have toed past the border of reasoned conversation and into the world of mindless flaming.

I ignore you taking shots at me and arguing like a troll, then you're going to say this because I typed "lol"? 

 

I laughed IRL when I read that because there literally are HP pots in this game, usable by any frame, and they make your entire point moot. Spammable, cheap, overpowered HP pots that also heal any nearby teammates. 

Edited January 20, 2014 by VKhaun

[Dymetreus]

This is my two cents on the subject, though I'm not a Grandmaster like some or someone who's played this game since it was birthed. But I have done quite a bit of exploring. My experience so far is a bit biased though as I play the Oberon, Rhino, some Trinity, and of course my first warframe, the Excalibur.

 

TL;DR, slash damage (or it's proc rather) should be nerfed to an extent. I think that perhaps like a sort of poison effect, it shouldn't bring you below 1 health and/or it's damage reduced by.. eh, 25%-50%?

 

Honestly I never really cared for the bleeding effect even on my Excalibur until I met my first Eviscerator, who dealt huge amounts of said effect to the point that it destroyed me with a couple of shots. The first two times I fell and was revived I didn't even know what I was getting killed by. So really the effect probably only needs to be nerfed on them, as anyone else who put an effect on me it was all small. But if this effect wasn't in the game, Oberon would be that much less worthless when it comes to support. To boot, I do think it adds a challenge to the game that puts you on the edge and should be kept. The real problem is there's no effective way to dodge it, or mod yourself to make you effective against it. If you're a Rhino, you could build armor and health, and Oberon simply health. But all Trin has is her ability really, as health mods are ineffective on her. (at least not as effective) Along with quite a few warframes out there. It's also not a /real/ way of combating it, simply delaying the inebitable. (Which isn't by long, unless you're playing the Rhino to which it helps a lot, and the Oberon perhaps)

 

He's already bad in his current state if you wish to fill the support role, I don't want to add a fourth/fifth reason why his heal is bad. (Some reasons being compared to Trin's 4)

Edited January 20, 2014 by Dymetreus

[Magmahunter]

And how the hell can Warframes even bleed?

read excal's codex entry

[DoomFruit]

The problem is it going through shields. How the hell is a bullet (or spinning blade of doom) supposed to open up a hole big enough to make you bleed if your shields have already stopped it? I can't see any reason why this is justified.

[Liminal]

Side Note, I can't wait until they give Infested Toxic ranged weaponry, oh the tears.

Already in game and nobody's complaining.

[Tsukinoki]

@Eliard

The reasons its not as fair as you would think is pure numbers. Sure it sounds fair that if we can proc bleed so should they, but then you realize that they have a much higher chance to proc bleed on us than we ever do on them simply because of the amount of bullets that they hit us with.

At the very least something needs to be done to reduce it quite a bit.

@VKhaun

And there have been times that I have been procced bleeding by an eviscerator and hid behind a rock and dropped a medium heal restore. I still died from bleeding even though it was healing me. Why? Because the bleeding wiped out my health in the 5 seconds between the first and second pulse.

What am I supposed to do against bleeding in that case?

I was playing a mag and he hit me once. I dropped the pot and still died while I waited for it to heal me. And I had around 500 hp.

The pots wont always save you, and they aren't that powerful considering that they only heal you 100 every 5 seconds, which means that the bleed proc of 100 per tick can still easily kill you even with a restore being used.

And if you're using the small one because you aren't part of a clan?

Thats only 30 per 5 seconds meaning a total of 120...which means that squishier frames will still be killed by the bleeding and the heal wouldn't have done much of anything to save you.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[Freelancer27]

I doubt Slash procs can be removed.

 

Since DE is looking for ways to remove massive Shield Tanks who prefer to using Redirection instead of Vitality, which Vitality was said to be useless, until Bleeding effects arrived.

 

I'm actually glad to see effects like these introduced in game.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Freelancer27

[Makya]

Already in game and nobody's complaining.

Umm the only toxic for the Infested are the ancients and that really isn't ranged, I meant 20-50m spitters

[Tsukinoki]

@Makya

There are the Lobber Crawlers. They are fairly rare though, but they can spit a poison blob at you between 20 and 50 meters. And it levels a small and short lasting poison cloud.

The only issue is that a lot of players dont know about them because of how rare they are.

[Makya]

@Makya

There are the Lobber Crawlers. They are fairly rare though, but they can spit a poison blob at you between 20 and 50 meters. And it levels a small and short lasting poison cloud.

The only issue is that a lot of players dont know about them because of how rare they are.

Never knew they were ranged then again can't remember when I saw one before, I have a scan of one..

[Tsukinoki]

@Makya

Their AI could be better at determining when to fire at someone but you'll most likely be able to kill them before they have a chance to do a ranged attack because of how low their HP is.

Though it is a bit absurd trying to get 30 scans of them...I only managed it because of a MD that spawned them like crazy. When there are large groups of them they are actually fairly dangerous enemies.

[Makya]

@Makya

Their AI could be better at determining when to fire at someone but you'll most likely be able to kill them before they have a chance to do a ranged attack because of how low their HP is.

Though it is a bit absurd trying to get 30 scans of them...I only managed it because of a MD that spawned them like crazy. When there are large groups of them they are actually fairly dangerous enemies.

So I guess Doc is right, though I should then say.. 'I can't wait until they fix Infested ranged AI'?

[(PSN)Stinja]

I doubt Slash procs can be removed.

 

I'm actually glad to see effects like these introduced in game.

I kinda like the concept of bleed / slash procs.

However a better mechanic might be to reduce the tick damage, and increase the time (so same total damage), so you at least get a chance to inform or get to a team mate. Currently its a all a bit "ive got full shields, why am i taking dam... < Revive : Forfeit > ".

Then introduce something like, if you have (full?) shields, the initial bleed inflicted is halved.

Personally i want players to get fire procs on them - it'd tickle me seeing teammates run about burning for a minute or so ;)

[Tsukinoki]

@(PS4)Stinja

The very least that they could do is to not have bleed kill you but only reduce you to 5 hp or something. It would still be dangerous as anything that brings your shields down would kill you at that point but it wouldn't be annoying that you die without being able to do anything about it at all.

Though your idea of reducing tick damage but increasing the number of ticks would be good because then a person would actually be able to use a medium heal restore and survive because of how the heal restore heals 100 hp every 5 seconds...which is more than long enough for the bleed ticks to kill you between heal pulses.