Who Is The New Useless Frame?

[Sh1n3y]

Hey guys. I posted a summary of everyone's opinions on this thread in a post here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/167833-best-to-worst-frames-poll/

 

It combines all the different rankings that everyone gave and found an overall tiered list. It is NOT my opinion but calculated from all your posts.

[Skitheryx]

banshee, unless vectis

Also Saryn now, unfortunatly

 Yeah... Banshee is a good idea but she needs a rework badly I love her but I only use her as a Sniper now...

[RealPandemonium]

Threads like this are why I really hope DE doesn't take player feedback too seriously.

[Riasiru]

Wow, this poll is majorly out dated if Valkyr is at the top of the list of 'most worthless.' Single target DPS her Hysteria ranks as one of the best abilities in the game... If Valkyr seems worthless, then you're either running ODA or some other boss that she can't reach. Rips Pluto's boss to shreds, though. 30 seconds of invulnerability when you only need like 10 to kill him with your punches of death.

 

 

Watch till end for bonus clip of Valkyr using hysteria with Warcry! XD

[Tatersail]

Excalibur is really strong endgame, because using Radial blind seems to stop combat, its just that nobody knows how to use him, or doesn't believe it will work (see https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/198822-excalibur-needs-a-colossal-nerf/)

Trinity is strong because she adds party damage immunity, and can use Link with Ogris/Penta for aoe.

Nova is Strong because of the 200% damage buff, AOE damage, and Antimatter drop.

Nekros is "required" for double loot, and bonus Oxygen.

Vauban still has one of the best Control skills for Infested.

Rhinos iron skin is good for low levels, and can also SPAM stomp with both max range mods for great control

 

using a combination of these should be possible to see wave 100, survival 100m with casual ease.

all these frames should be god tier, as they are some of the "required frames" for high content.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Excalibur is really strong endgame, because using Radial blind seems to stop combat, its just that nobody knows how to use him, or doesn't believe it will work (see https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/198822-excalibur-needs-a-colossal-nerf/)

Trinity is strong because she adds party damage immunity, and can use Link with Ogris/Penta for aoe.

Nova is Strong because of the 200% damage buff, AOE damage, and Antimatter drop.

Nekros is "required" for double loot, and bonus Oxygen.

Vauban still has one of the best Control skills for Infested.

Rhinos iron skin is good for low levels, and can also SPAM stomp with both max range mods for great control

 

using a combination of these should be possible to see wave 100, survival 100m with casual ease.

all these frames should be god tier, as they are some of the "required frames" for high content.

 

I feel sorry for you. Your thread (and the nerf it asked for) was perfectly justified yet most people just TL;DR'd it and QQ'd 

[(PSN)Englios1]

Can someone tell me why loki is like in the high tier beacause i always die when im using him even when im in beast mode

(Basically invis and reck havoc upon everything)

[Naftal]

Can someone tell me why loki is like in the high tier beacause i always die when im using him even when im in beast mode

(Basically invis and reck havoc upon everything)

Because you are playing him wrong if you take damage. Don't stand in front of enemies when invisible, taking their bullets in your face.

[Fenrisulfr]

I call shenanigans on Ash being useless. He can take care of himself just fine. He's got superb survivability, although he could use some ability rework.

[Hyunsai]

Frost seems like the new bottom.

 

He litteraly got nothing other frames can't do better in Defense, Damage, Crowd Control, on top of being the slowest being of the game.

 

Well, my bad, he still got dat trenchcoat.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Hyunsai

[RealPandemonium]

Frost seems like the new bottom.

 

He litteraly got nothing other frames can't do better in Defense, Damage, Crowd Control.

 

Well, my bad, he still got dat trenchcoat.

Frost has the third strongest room-clearing 4 in the game now.  Snow Globe is still powerful and he is still durable.  I cannot comprehend why people think Frost sucks now.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Frost has the third strongest room-clearing 4 in the game now.  Snow Globe is still powerful and he is still durable.  I cannot comprehend why people think Frost sucks now.

 

They didn't pay attention to or try out the recent buff.

[Hyunsai]

Frost has the third strongest room-clearing 4 in the game now.  Snow Globe is still powerful and he is still durable.  I cannot comprehend why people think Frost sucks now.

 

On the contrary, the fact that enemies can shoot you straight away before you end the casting animation is making this room clearing 4 one of the worst and dangerous ultimate for the caster past a certain level.

 

It's good for cleaning trash, I can agree though.

 

Snow Globe is still situational, static, impairs vision, and you can achieve must better results with other defensive frames without the loss of mobility, vision, and practical shooting.

 

So yes, I can take Frost to low levels areas, but after that, he is an hindrance to the team. He was a one trick pony before, now, he is a sad pony.

 

 

 

Well, DE said they were still a chance we got the 5 second stun of Avalanche back, so all hope is not lost. Until that, my 3 formaed Frost will stay on the bench.

[Noble_Cactus]

I call shenanigans on Ash being useless. He can take care of himself just fine. He's got superb survivability, although he could use some ability rework.

 

His toolset lends him far more to solo play. He offers nothing to the team otherwise, and Bladestorm can even be seen as a hindrance to the team. Don't kill the red dudes or you'll p*ss the Ash off. *30 minutes later in Survival* I wish our Ash had some utility skills. Where's a Loki?

[RealPandemonium]

His toolset lends him far more to solo play. He offers nothing to the team otherwise, and Bladestorm can even be seen as a hindrance to the team. Don't kill the red dudes or you'll p*ss the Ash off. *30 minutes later in Survival* I wish our Ash had some utility skills. Where's a Loki?

Ash has radial stuns, stealth revives, and armor-ignoring assassination capability vs heavy units.  Not every frame needs a team-wide buff to be helpful. 

[AVEOX]

Heyyy we need to put Zephyr in the list!

[ExplodingStars]

Heyyy we need to put Zephyr in the list!

Trololololol?

[Axterix13]

Frost has the third strongest room-clearing 4 in the game now.  Snow Globe is still powerful and he is still durable.  I cannot comprehend why people think Frost sucks now.

Yeah, Frost doesn't suck.  He just needs a little flavor (a slow after his #1 is broken and after Avalanche wears off).

 

 

Ash has radial stuns, stealth revives, and armor-ignoring assassination capability vs heavy units.  Not every frame needs a team-wide buff to be helpful. 

Force multipliers tend to be more effective than power condensed into a single frame.  But ignoring that, Ash needs a little something to be helpful, because he's weak in terms of what he does bring.  Right now, his stun isn't exactly anything worth mentioning, plenty of people have the ability to revive in relative safety, and his ultimate is way too slow, taking its time to stab minions instead of those heavies.  He's subpar.  Mind you, I don't think it'd take too much to fix him up a bit.  An accuracy debuff to enemies impacted by his smoke bomb and some clones to help with the stabbing would do wonders.  And for pure fun reasons, a lower energy cost on his #1 would be sweet.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Axterix13

[Terrornaut]

Frost has the third strongest room-clearing 4 in the game now.  Snow Globe is still powerful and he is still durable.  I cannot comprehend why people think Frost sucks now.

While I'd like to be constructive on this matter, what it comes down to...is that people are still butthurt over Frost changes.  I actually enjoy taking him out with the changes to avalanche.  Snow globe hasn't got hit that hard - and it wasn't necessary ever in tower def unless you were going way way up in levels.  Freeze is still no fun to use.

Zephyr is an excellent generalist, like Rhino, with one near useless/gimmick ability.  Even with that handicap, she is still an excellent survivalist and Tornado's CC is nothing to sneeze at.

Banshee's complete area shut down (you want range, not duration) via sound quake can be extremely useful if you extend it out to a range where mobs would start shooting at you.  It just stops combat.  Sonar is useful with any gun, from Ignis to Vectis, and its the best way to level weak weapons (unrelated to tiering I suppose).  Besides, Banshee + M prime equals insane damage.  If you really have a hard time hitting weakspots, well, I guess you have to depend on skills like M Prime to do all the work for you.  Silence, of course, provides no tactical advantage.  Sonic Boom would be great if it knocked enemies farther/knocked down longer since its not a damage skill.  Needs more utility. Still, Banshee is great support.

Even with Ember as my main, I'd probably place her below Banshee - wherever she falls.  With accellerant, she really doesn't safely scale into higher content.  She's too high risk for little reward - a constant problem in DE's designs (topic needs its own thread).  Fireball acts as a great short stun, and WoF has the damage, but both fall off extremely easily. Heat just isn't as good as corrosion/toxic or...antimatter. She doesn't kill nearly as well with her powers as Nova or Saryn - two frames that have mobility or defensive advantages.  (Fire Blast is too weak in functionality and strength to offer any real area denial, and it doesn't add fire damage like volt's elec shield).

Valk's Hysteria, though a functionally implemented mess atm, does serious damage.  If she had a faster gap closer, or Paralyze wasn't so awkward to use (does it stun when more shields are present to expend?), she'd be way up there.  She can't copter, and isn't particularly fast, but when she gets to you, she's going to pump out thousands of damage instantly.  Well, I guess she's not a primed chambered vectis. Hm.  Still, she's tankier than Rhino the Juggernaut, very mobile, can function independently, and is one of three frames that has melee relevant/viable abilities.

Saryn doesn't have much in the way of survival strength.  Her molt only takes aggro sometimes, and if not well used at the moment, won't actually get her out of harms way/damage.  Venom, while more effective than people give credit, rarely needs to be used when she can just spam Miasma - the best damaging ult outside of m prime hijinks and a Bullet Attracted radial javelin.She offers corrosion and high damage or long stuns to the team.  Better damage dealer than Ember, better at surviving and getting around.  Contagion is...yet another tacked on ability on a frame that doesn't really do anything.

Ash isn't bottom tier.  Bladestorm can potentially do a ton of damage, and his other abilities are fairly useful in getting him around the battlefield.  Can't say much about him as I've never played him, but well..he's a ninja.  Shuriken though...yet another substandard ability.

Saryn (sheer damage, venom procs)

Banshee (massive team damage, stunlocking wide area)

Valkyr (debatable, but draws fire with hysteria on top of doing serious damage, sturdy)

Ember (damage, stun + very selective damage amp).  They could do so much more with this frame but are intent on placing her as a FIRE throwing nut and nothing else.  Why not superheated plasma, fusion powered craziness, something.  Then again, she's Ember, not a Blaze or Scorch.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Terrornaut

[RealPandemonium]

Even with Ember as my main, I'd probably place her below Banshee - wherever she falls.  With accellerant, she really doesn't safely scale into higher content.  She's too high risk for little reward - a constant problem in DE's designs (topic needs its own thread).  Fireball acts as a great short stun, and WoF has the damage, but both fall off extremely easily. Heat just isn't as good as corrosion/toxic or...antimatter. She doesn't kill nearly as well with her powers as Nova or Saryn - two frames that have mobility or defensive advantages.  (Fire Blast is too weak in functionality and strength to offer any real area denial, and it doesn't add fire damage like volt's elec shield).

Your tempered, rational approach to balance discussion is a breath of fresh air.  I think that whatever they replace the current incarnation of Fire Blast with should be the silver bullet to fixing Ember's durability problems.  However with the right build you can get more than enough ability damage for endgame by using accelerant.  

 

Also, Fireball isn't just a stun; you can stack the DoT to do solid damage with it.  Most of the damage is in the DoT so huge amounts of Power Strength aren't necessary, just the usual 57% or even just the 30% from Intensify if you want a more duration-focused build.  

 

Additionally, heat is a pretty strong element overall (only disadvantage is vs Proto Shield and Grineer with high armor values).  Heat is especially powerful when it procs.  Increasing the proc chance on WoF slightly would give it the punch it needs against higher level foes (heavy Grineer would still be a menace, but they are a menace for almost all frame abilities.)

[Axterix13]

...

Ash is bottom tier.  But mainly because his ultimate takes so long.  Potentially do a ton of damage doesn't matter when most anyone can do more damage using the time shooting.  It's an ammo saver and something to buy shield regen time.

 

Banshee would make a good starter frame, but once you get certain mods, she doesn't serve much of a point most of the time.  There's no need for Sonar and shooting at feet when you can just put a round or two in the chest or head for the same results.  Sure, you could use your crappy gun, but again, why bother?  Why not play with a more fun gun, and with other people also using fun guns, and let the team xp level the not-so-fun stuff?  Plus if you play on teams, there's going to be someone with a good gun.  Probably multiple someones.  The rare Banshee I come across starts the mission off using Sonar, but by the middle, they've long since quit bothering.  This is why you rarely see them (and you rarely see Nyx in normal missions for the same reason).  Now, against high hp targets she should be handy, but a bunch of the bosses have the "shoot this spot at this time" mechanic, and Sonar doesn't work with it.  It is also sad that you can't extend the duration of her ultimate.  And then there's Silence.

 

Ember sadly suffers from Accelerant.  That power provides a huge boost to fire damage, which means her other powers have to be weaker.  She'd be better off if Accelerant provided less of a fire damage boost, and instead more of the power came from the other abilities themselves.

 

And Saryn, well, I love her, but her #1 is like Sonar, a bit too situational; her #2 needs more hp, should probably use her armor, and a bit more threat wouldn't hurt either; and her #3 is melee related but doesn't do much to solve melee-related issues (knockdowns, damage), which pretty much means no one is going to bother right now.  She's also not super-speedy (with mobs easy to kill, he who gets there first gets to kill stuff) and requires a bit of knowledge to make her most effective (specifically, that -duration is good for Miasma).

 

Zephyr, well, she has the Tornado + loot issue, but overall, she's a blast to play.  Two of powers essentially get used for mobility, while the other two are great defensive powers.  I wouldn't put her on a useless frame list.  She's a great general mission frame.

 

Mind you, I think a lot of those frames need less work than some that aren't on the list.  There's quite a few frames that have one power that really stands out, but the rest are sort of meh.  Trinity, for example, would use a lot more changes than Ash.  But for now, she has her god-mode, and until that gets nerfed, it is what it is.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Axterix13

[RealPandemonium]

Ash is bottom tier.  But mainly because his ultimate takes so long.  Potentially do a ton of damage doesn't matter when most anyone can do more damage using the time shooting.  It's an ammo saver and something to buy shield regen time.

 

Banshee would make a good starter frame, but once you get certain mods, she doesn't serve much of a point most of the time.  There's no need for Sonar and shooting at feet when you can just put a round or two in the chest or head for the same results.  Sure, you could use your crappy gun, but again, why bother?  Why not play with a more fun gun, and with other people also using fun guns, and let the team xp level the not-so-fun stuff?  Plus if you play on teams, there's going to be someone with a good gun.  Probably multiple someones.  The rare Banshee I come across starts the mission off using Sonar, but by the middle, they've long since quit bothering.  This is why you rarely see them (and you rarely see Nyx in normal missions for the same reason).  Now, against high hp targets she should be handy, but a bunch of the bosses have the "shoot this spot at this time" mechanic, and Sonar doesn't work with it.  It is also sad that you can't extend the duration of her ultimate.  And then there's Silence.

 

Ember sadly suffers from Accelerant.  That power provides a huge boost to fire damage, which means her other powers have to be weaker.  She'd be better off if Accelerant provided less of a fire damage boost, and instead more of the power came from the other abilities themselves.

 

And Saryn, well, I love her, but her #1 is like Sonar, a bit too situational; her #2 needs more hp, should probably use her armor, and a bit more threat wouldn't hurt either; and her #3 is melee related but doesn't do much to solve melee-related issues (knockdowns, damage), which pretty much means no one is going to bother right now.  She's also not super-speedy (with mobs easy to kill, he who gets there first gets to kill stuff) and requires a bit of knowledge to make her most effective (specifically, that -duration is good for Miasma).

 

Zephyr, well, she has the Tornado + loot issue, but overall, she's a blast to play.  Two of powers essentially get used for mobility, while the other two are great defensive powers.  I wouldn't put her on a useless frame list.  She's a great general mission frame.

 

Mind you, I think a lot of those frames need less work than some that aren't on the list.  There's quite a few frames that have one power that really stands out, but the rest are sort of meh.  Trinity, for example, would use a lot more changes than Ash.  But for now, she has her god-mode, and until that gets nerfed, it is what it is.

Ash is bottom tier because his ultimate takes too long? Does every ultimate that doesn't kill everything on the screen instantly just suck? 

 

Ember does fine damage with Fireball and WoF until she reaches 35+ for non-Grineer, and through around 22ish for Grineer.  Unlike most other frames she actually has a method to make her abilities work against high level Grineer.  Accelerant is also a radial stun and can boost teammates' damage as well if they mod accordingly. 

 

How many of these calls for changes to warframes and abilities are just "I don't like that frame so make it what I want, regardless of its current functionality and all the people who like its current incarnation?"  This game shouldn't be a mindless slaughter of enemies.  The player should actually have to interact with enemies to kill them.  If everyone keeps telling DE that all the frames that have unique mechanics suck because they can't wipe rooms fast enough then we will end up with a crappy game that appeals to fewer people (who will probably end up playing for a bit, then quitting because the game offers no variety.)  The design of Valkyr and Zephyr (no room-clearing 4, exploitable but not too-exploitable mechanics) are steps in the right direction but the community S#&$ted on Valkyr (until she was buffed to OP status) and Zephyr (until people figured out she had high durability and an exploitable defensive skill.)  Oberon will likely continue to be called trash until he gets something exploitable (admittedly he needs some tweaking but not anything drastic.)

 

I really appreciate that DE has designed down-to-earth frames like Excalibur, Ash, Banshee, Ember, etc. and continues to do so.  The fad of making wizards that kill everything around them instantly with no drawbacks is a race to the bottom, and I hope they maintain their creative integrity in the face of all these calls for drastic changes when drastic changes are not required to make every frame feel good to use. 

 

Lastly, @Axterix13, I didn't intend this message as a specific criticism of your post, but as a response to some of the conventional wisdom in your post that I've seen in many posts in this forum.

Edited March 28, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[SputnikII]

I'm seeing a lot of Valkyr hate and it makes me sad. The reasons I like that frame are:

- She looks great. Favorite look in the game.

- Forget Hysteria. With Warcry she out roars the rhino, adding the same dps boost with an equally high attack speed booster while also reducing enemy speed. Awesome.

- Paralysis can be used infinitely to stack on warcry and really make melee sing on even the highest lvl mobs in a T3S. The combo of buffs give her an advantage over rhino imo.

- Her base speed is higher than the Rhino Prime everybody is justifying grinding so hard for.

- Her base armor and HP are crazy high so even if you're not doing perma blessing she's just as viable as any other frame for longer in the waves if not more so.

- She is easier to mod out with some wiggle room for more taste driven modification.

 

Clearly a fan boy, I just think that a lot of people saying she is bad are looking to her ult which never was that great in my book as I value switching weapons and playstyles too much to give up 30 secs of only melee but it is useful in a pinch. I'd rather save energy to buff whole team though.

Basically I'm saying shes a more viable and enjoyable and different alternative to the roaring rhino. Great tank, great team buffs, great single target damage if played well.

[(PSN)Omni42]

Forget Hysteria? No way. Hysteria is one of the best powers in the game imo. The lifesteal synergises perfectly with rage, vitality and steel fiber. Vitality + Rage means you will always have enough energy to recast Hysteria if you come out of it with full health, steel fiber gives you more time to cast it once you've lost enough health to have gained enough energy, and with the right melee weapon and build you can just about regain full health with a single punch. The trick, I find, is maxing out crit chance and crit multiplier. Using dual cleavers on ODD you can swing for >10k against every enemy (with a crit on a weakspot) with ~70% chance of crit. And that's just not even maxed out (damage wise) dual cleavers. With 5% lifesteal that's >500 health returned in one hit, while each punch can hit up to 5 enemies (but it won't). 500 health is 200 energy with a maxed Rage. You can be an invincible hate machine as long as you cast in time and don't get drained by Ancient Disrupters. Most other game modes are basically the same except you've gotta hunt down your enemies instead of simply having them run at you for easy disposal. In those cases duration is important and sprint/slide mods are useful. You already have crazy stamina. If you're getting killed between bursts of 1min+ invincibility use warcry to boost your already crazy armour. I really hope DE doesn't read this...

[Frostmire]

texts

i support this . I play on Asian sever and i rarely see a Nova unless it's a very serious survival/defense or invasion , i think it gets to the point that Nova ( and OP stuffs in general ) makes most people's gaming experience so boring that unless they need to get the job done , they won't touch Nova . 

 

There is just so many flaws in the abilities designs right now , too many "press this to win" frames , meanwhile , a part of the player base seems to trash every frame that has no OP feature to exploit .( Man , i haven't seen any game like Warframe where it is just so easy to exploit the OP stuffs , the devs even support us doing so , making Fleeting Expertise so we can play ultimates for the cost of the first ability , slap in an Energy Siphon and we can enjoy using some skills forever , like Radia Blind , Chaos , Bastile ... etc )

 

 

And yet some people still want DE to buff every Warframe to " Nova's level" , just wow

Edited March 29, 2014 by Frostmire