Luck Is The Only Way To Progress In Update 7.

[Mir.]

You were agreeing with him. I don't even know why you're bothering now. You wouldn't ask "Phorid is a limited factor, is it not,?" If you didn't think it was. Keep trying to cop out please.

What that guy meant that it's impossible to farm for Nyx without shield mods. Hence shield mods is a limiting factor for progression in this aspect.

READ. I did not even say or implied that I agreed with him. Oh wait I said that before.

does this sound anything like I'm agreeing with him? I took the effort to recompose of what he said, laid it out in the MOST simple terms for your simple head to compute. Yet you are unappreciative.

And you have no listed any other ways to find mods. Keep the spamming up.

Yeah I agree this is a thread for grief but from what I read and understood, everyone has provided enough and ample counter arguements to each and every single of your point. You were left with your own ego rewinding each point of yours again and again. If you want to be more convincing, sit down and actually think constructive new ideas to help lessen the grief from players.

And you don't call the shots, I sincerely hope you do realize that.

[Aggh]

READ. I did not even say or implied that I agreed with him. Oh wait I said that before.

Yeah I agree this is a thread for grief but from what I read and understood, everyone has provided enough and ample counter arguements to each and every single of your point. You were left with your own ego rewinding each point of yours again and again. If you want to be more convincing, sit down and actually think constructive new ideas to help lessen the grief from players.

And you don't call the shots, I sincerely hope you do realize that.

Sorry, but if you're going to keep on lying because you don't want to admit you were proven wrong, I'm just going to ignore you so I don't have to waste any more time on you. Good bye, don't bother responding because I won't be able to see it.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Aggh

[katari]

And that's dreadfull game design. End of story.

For those of you have been lucky and having a good time with update 7, good for you, please don't fill this thread with your posts about how the update is fine because you got what you needed from the RNG. The rest of us didn't, we're still farming Mercury for Sheild and HP mods that never drop, and it's S#&$.

*Edit* Since allot of people don't like reading, I will add some points for clarity.

1. I don't care about the soft level reset, it does not bother me.

2. I don have anything against the mod system itself, it could use some improvements but it's a good system over all.

The main issue and point of this thread is that right now, what mods you get is luck based, and some unfortunate people can't get the mods they like\need no matter how much they grind. And that's bad game design, and likely to drive away new players.

Actually the funny thing about the current state of the game in my experience is that the "COMMON" mods are by far the HARDEST mods to come by. I look at my MODS list and it's a little disappointing. Also the RNG seems a little whimsical, I went to farm Xini for some mods then I went to Mercury for fun and In Mercury I found multishot and in Xini I kept getting sentinel mods.... So I can see that luck is a factor, but it was a factor before as well. I am sure they will keep working on it though, they just redesigned the whole system so perhaps we can wait for more balancing soon.

[Mir.]

Sorry, but if you're going to keep on lying because you don't want to admit you were proven wrong, I'm just going to ignore you so I don't have to waste any more time on you. Good bye, don't bother responding because I won't be able to see it.

I didn't even agree on the phorid matter so who are you proving to again? Or you're just proving me that you have a high horse?

Good riddance, It was literally so hard to talk sense to your thick headed skull. If anyone like you exists in the society, I'll probably end up punching your face with my office hole puncher.

[Aggh]

Actually the funny thing about the current state of the game in my experience is that the "COMMON" mods are by far the HARDEST mods to come by. I look at my MODS list and it's a little disappointing. Also the RNG seems a little whimsical, I went to farm Xini for some mods then I went to Mercury for fun and In Mercury I found multishot and in Xini I kept getting sentinel mods.... So I can see that luck is a factor, but it was a factor before as well. I am sure they will keep working on it though, they just redesigned the whole system so perhaps we can wait for more balancing soon.

^This. We're still at a point where rifle mods are so bad that secondaries outclass everything. I'd rather see them try and balance what we already have rather than do another major systems rework.

[Splosions]

When one person have issues with you, It may be the other party's fault.

But if 2 or maybe more people finds the same issues with you, you might just want to evaluate your self-worth. (Such as spamming up to 15 pages)

There piles of people having issues with this because they're butt hurt.

Well I think that sums it up pretty well. You managed to demonstrate his point perfectly.

Aggh you are refusing to acknowledge that nearly everyone in this thread has, very intelligently, picked apart every theory and hypotheses you have to offer. Rather than taking that information in a scientific way and restructuring it, you simple come to the conclusion, that everyone is wrong except you.

I now see that no amount of logic will make you understand just how incorrect you are. At this point you are a zealot for your own wrong philosophies, atop your soapbox, yelling at everyone, with spittle flying out your mouth, screaming, "IF YOU WOULD JUST SEE THE LIGHT!"

I hope that a mod comes by and locks this thread as it has gotten derailed so many times, with my own arguments as well. I would like to see a new thread created with actual constructive criticism towards the game rather than Aggh simply attempting to belittle every opinion to make his own appear to be superior, and failing in the most embarrassing of ways.

Aggh, untill I see some semblance of logic come from you, I am simply going to dismiss anything you post as the ramblings of a schizophrenic.

Thank you.

[Aggh]

Another thing people are missing is that having primary mods be so gimped is a major factor in why shields are ever more important than they should be at all. The fact that pistols are the best weapons right now means that you have to waste a lot more time on large groups of enemies because of reloads.

Well I think that sums it up pretty well. You managed to demonstrate his point perfectly.

Aggh you are refusing to acknowledge that nearly everyone in this thread has, very intelligently, picked apart every theory and hypotheses you have to offer. Rather than taking that information in a scientific way and restructuring it, you simple come to the conclusion, that everyone is wrong except you.

I now see that no amount of logic will make you understand just how incorrect you are. At this point you are a zealot for your own wrong philosophies, atop your soapbox, yelling at everyone, with spittle flying out your mouth, screaming, "IF YOU WOULD JUST SEE THE LIGHT!"

I hope that a mod comes by and locks this thread as it has gotten derailed so many times, with my own arguments as well. I would like to see a new thread created with actual constructive criticism towards the game rather than Aggh simply attempting to belittle every opinion to make his own appear to be superior, and failing in the most embarrassing of ways.

Aggh, untill I see some semblance of logic come from you, I am simply going to dismiss anything you post as the ramblings of a schizophrenic.

Thank you.

Well at least you didn't try to come up with excuses as to why phorid can be run without shield mods. Completely ignoring that itcan be done pretty reasonably isn't much better though. It's funny because your best argument was one of the bosses where shields are less important than anywhere else in the game. Clearly you have a deep and nuanced understanding of how this game works. Or not.

Did you miss this?

I have presented definitive proof that your assertions are wrong. Why can't you try and do the same? Every single time you've been disproven, you just lash out at me instead of providing an actual rebuttal.

Also, I'm not the only person in this thread to disagree with you. Just because the butt hurt crowd is louder doesn't mean that they're a majority. People that are content with the game are much less likely to $#*(@ and moan.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Aggh

[V0LK]

So I can see that luck is a factor, but it was a factor before as well.

Luck wasn't the ONLY way to progress. You had a skill tree and mods could help you to become even better(which was very fun). Now, without mods, you stuck at 10lvl planets. And even after I get mods, what's the point to go to Pluto when there are the same mods as on Mercury?

[Aggh]

Luck wasn't the ONLY way to progress. You had a skill tree and mods could help you to become even better(which was very fun). Now, without mods, you stuck at 10lvl planets. And even after I get mods, what's the point to go to Pluto when there are the same mods as on Mercury?

Lol, in u6 good luck trying to beat the later bosses in a reasonable amount of time without a multishot mod. And if you're stuck at level 10 planets, you're doing it wrong.

Pluto has better drop rates, you get better mods and more mods. It also lets you level up your frames/weapons faster because of the higher level enemies. Getting excalibur and having another system to get alerts on his worthwhile too.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Aggh

[GolDraG]

its bit lol when ppl complain that common mods( most likly theyr made common coz u know .. u need them ...) are droping like rarest ones, and then get responds from others that most likly hawe either these mods or other ones thats counterweights it, to use brains ... :D

i realy would like to see how those ppl play infested or any missions that hawe hords of mobs with frames that hawe 75/75 shield/hp ... sure i can play these missions slowly which would take me hour or so to complete if no more ... but then i just rather go find game that would be bit more fast paced ... u know... fliping walruning ninjas with guns and swords hacking ewrything in theyr path :D

lucky me somehow i got quate a few vit mods from merkury farm; few sentinel shield mods(hurray for him) and fast deflection.

but shield ... what shield :D 48h played ...

[Exterminatus]

I have presented definitive proof that your assertions are wrong.

No the only proof you have posted is that the map makers need to fix Phorid's boss stage so that he doesn't get stuck in a doorway for several people to leisurely fill with holes (and spam powers). Jumping on a box likewise is not proof of Infested being pansies overall that are incredibly easy to kill. Rather it indicates that as a whole the Infested fraction is way too easy to exploit in terms of pathing AI. So you haven't proved anything at all.

In fact I have even seen someone down the Rogue Stalker with no shields and health mods, with a Paris. How did he do it? Simple, the Stalker bugged out by teleporting into the geometry of the map which exposed his upper torso and head. The guy then proceeded to leisurely charge his bow and kill the Stalker. And this proves nothing, only that the Stalker's AI needs to be better in recognizing the map coordinates so that this doesn't happen again.

So no, your argument of "skill" compensating for the high level enemies' objectively superior stats is bunk. Exploits are not evidence of skill, merely the evidence of the developer's oversight in code, map geometry, etc. One mistake is all it takes for a total party wipe especially with excessive amount of status inflicting enemies. In fact your subjective experiences are the best proof that this mod system attempting to act as both progression system and as a customizable gear system is the worst of both worlds. The fact that you can have shield mods and whatnot spill out like water from stone while many others like me are in a veritable famine of durability mods means that reliance upon the RNG as a substitute for the original skill tree progression is a demoralizing and demeaning experience to grind through.

(Seriously though stop shooting your arguements in the foot when your "side" is already precarious by writ of having to rely on subjective measures such as having to be posthuman Orokin-engineered killbots to be able to meaninguflly progress through the game content while the mere plebian human peasants have to pile stacks of Captain Vor clones and innocent MOAs into the bonfire for a chance to see even one shield mod).

[Aggh]

No the only proof you have posted is that the map makers need to fix Phorid's boss stage so that he doesn't get stuck in a doorway for several people to leisurely fill with holes (and spam powers). Jumping on a box likewise is not proof of Infested being pansies overall that are incredibly easy to kill. Rather it indicates that as a whole the Infested fraction is way too easy to exploit in terms of pathing AI. So you haven't proved anything at all.

In fact I have even seen someone down the Rogue Stalker with no shields and health mods, with a Paris. How did he do it? Simple, the Stalker bugged out by teleporting into the geometry of the map which exposed his upper torso and head. The guy then proceeded to leisurely charge his bow and kill the Stalker. And this proves nothing, only that the Stalker's AI needs to be better in recognizing the map coordinates so that this doesn't happen again.

So no, your argument of "skill" compensating for the high level enemies' objectively superior stats is bunk. Exploits are not evidence of skill, merely the evidence of the developer's oversight in code, map geometry, etc. One mistake is all it takes for a total party wipe especially with excessive amount of status inflicting enemies. In fact your subjective experiences are the best proof that this mod system attempting to act as both progression system and as a customizable gear system is the worst of both worlds. The fact that you can have shield mods and whatnot spill out like water from stone while many others like me are in a veritable famine of durability mods means that reliance upon the RNG as a substitute for the original skill tree progression is a demoralizing and demeaning experience to grind through.

(Seriously though stop shooting your arguements in the foot when your "side" is already precarious by writ of having to rely on subjective measures such as having to be posthuman Orokin-engineered killbots to be able to meaninguflly progress through the game content while the mere plebian human peasants have to pile stacks of Captain Vor clones and innocent MOAs into the bonfire for a chance to see even one shield mod).

Don't bother responding if youre not going actually watch the vid. I cleared some space on my ssd so I could record longer and didn't glitch him in the second vid I posted. Besides, you're making arguments based on how the game should be and now how it actually is.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Aggh

[Ronyn]

This argument has lost its way.

Whether its possible to do end game content without certain mods is not really the issue.

Players have vastly different levels of skill. In any action game there will be people who can beat content that most folks cant.

Just like there will be people who cant get through certain areas that most people find easy.

That doesnt automatically indicate that a games progression system is balanced properly or not.

When designing an action game there is an intended difficulty level that is supposed to fit the average player.

What kind of upgrades the average player needs to complete a level is a tricky business that requires a lot of metrics and testing.

Such things are generally unknown to us players so we shouldnt get caught up on it.

What is clear is that progression was at one time a mixture between what nodes you choose to put points in and what kind of mod options you found.

Currently, we have lost node choices and are beholden to the mod options you find. We can upgrade the mods, which is great an improvement in some ways over the old mod system.

But we are still only able to upgrade what we find in the first place.

So, no matter how you slice it, the mods we find decide what kind of upgrade options we have. Period.

[Splosions]

And just to be sure we are all on the same page.

So, no matter how you slice it, the mods we find decide what kind of upgrade options we have. Period.

That is a very bad thing.

[V0LK]

Lol, in u6 good luck trying to beat the later bosses in a reasonable amount of time without a multishot mod. And if you're stuck at level 10 planets, you're doing it wrong.

Pluto has better drop rates, you get better mods and more mods. It also lets you level up your frames/weapons faster because of the higher level enemies. Getting excalibur and having another system to get alerts on his worthwhile too.

Hey, hey! Wasn't talking to you. I'd hide your post if I could for being absolute garbage.

[Aggh]

This argument has lost its way.

Whether its possible to do end game content without certain mods is not really the issue.

Players have vastly different levels of skill. In any action game there will be people who can beat content that most folks cant.

Just like there will be people who cant get through certain areas that most people find easy.

That doesnt automatically indicate that a games progression system is balanced properly or not.

When designing an action game there is an intended difficulty level that is supposed to fit the average player.

The skill cieling in this game is too low for that to really be a concern. Anyone can learn to be good at this game with a little time.

What kind of upgrades the average player needs to complete a level is a tricky business that requires a lot of metrics and testing.

Such things are generally unknown to us players so we shouldnt get caught up on it.

Which would be even more messed up by earned passives and harder to earn with earned passives since they'll have to take even more into account when balancing levels/mobs/weapons.

What is clear is that progression was at one time a mixture between what nodes you choose to put points in and what kind of mod options you found.

Currently, we have lost node choices and are beholden to the mod options you find. We can upgrade the mods, which is great an improvement in some ways over the old mod system.

But we are still only able to upgrade what we find in the first place.

Considering that endless defense lets us farm (and lets not kid ourselves, this game will always be about farming/grinding) mods more efficiently and quickly than we've ever been able to do so before, I don't see this as much of a problem.

So, no matter how you slice it, the mods we find decide what kind of upgrade options we have. Period.

This would only be an issue if the upgrade options are hard to find. Shield mods, power max mods, and to a much lesser extent, hp mods, are the only real examples of this and having loot tables be tweaked could easily fix that.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Aggh

[Blatantfool]

This game relies too heavily on RNG. It doesn't ruin the game but it leads to really weird progression that can very easily mistreat and bore a player.

I've seen people &!$$ed as hell because they can't get drops they want and need like health, shields, shield regen, power range, power efficiency, ect, ect.

I have all these thing. Got them first try, well, almost. Efficiency was two tries. Fancy that.

That is a bit unfair, I think. These players have to grind hardcore - I simply do not. Now the game is significantly easier for me and these people may very well still be waiting - hard to say.

It doesn't ruin the game - just makes things a little weird. The game can shaft you so easily.

And that idea rubs me the wrong way. The idea that I could have a head start over another player and it has nothing to do with anything short of a dice roll ending in my favor. I don't have to be better or anything - I don't even have to play more often. I could just randomly end up with all the things you want based off a fluke. Just luck. Meanwhile you could run a level over and over and still be waiting while all I have to worry about is which trash mods to let my shiny, sexy mods eat in fusion.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Blatantfool

[AsteriskCGY]

Currently my group is farming a defense mission for mods, namely a shield and health mod for the frames. Haven't ran any other mission yet.

[Ronyn]

The skill cieling in this game is too low for that to really be a concern. Anyone can learn to be good at this game with a little time.

Do you have metrics to prove that statement?

Even if it was true can you provide any certainty that the current skill floor and skill cielings will remain in tact by developments end?

Which would be even more messed up by earned passives and harder to earn with earned passives since they'll have to take even more into account when balancing levels/mobs/weapons.

Not so simple as that.

In some ways that is true....

But In some ways its easier to create the mediun balance point by having an expected power baseline based on inherent passive growth.

Considering that endless defense lets us farm (and lets not kid ourselves, this game will always be about farming/grinding) mods more efficiently and quickly than we've ever been able to do so before, I don't see this as much of a problem.

We can and do farm but what we find is still based on probablibilty.

This would only be an issue if the upgrade options are hard to find. Shield mods, power max mods, and to a much lesser extent, hp mods, are the only real examples of this and having loot tables be tweaked could easily fix that.

1: Do you have metrics proving how hard or easy these things are to find?

2: Even with modified drop rates it is mathematically impossble to negate the extremes that eventually occur in all probablity based systems.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Ronyn

[Exterminatus]

Don't bother responding if youre not going actually watch the vid. I cleared some space on my ssd so I could record longer and didn't glitch him in the second vid I posted. Besides, you're making arguments based on how the game should be and now how it actually is.

Great, now what are you trying to prove with this video? (And yes I have watched it). That it is possible to solo Phorid post U7 using... RNG granted gear? Akboltos and Boltors can only be obtained by continuously grinding and hoping that the ingredients drop for you in addition to the mods that you have used. Or you can use real life cash. Of the gear that can be said to not be RNG related it is the Volt Warframe (which means if you have started out with Excalibur and Loki then you are reliant upon the... you guessed it, RNG!) How then can you expect for John Q. Lootradar (gonna be stealing him for now MJ12) to reasonably contribute? (Especially since if we're being consistent then he probably has no Neurodes, only an immeasurable supply of Nano Spores, Polymer Bundles, and Ferrite). The only way for 9001 hour player John Q. Lootradar and 30 minute Chosen Player of the Random Number God to progress through the game is through luck. Luck is the only way to advance because the only way to enhance your character and gear is through mods (which relies on the Random Number Generator), blueprints (again Random Nmber Generator), or by paying real cash (and it reeks of Pay to Win).

[Ronyn]

Confirmed by steve in Tiwtch chat.Passives are coming.30s will not be so squishy.

[Aggh]

Great, now what are you trying to prove with this video? (And yes I have watched it). That it is possible to solo Phorid post U7 using... RNG granted gear? Akboltos and Boltors can only be obtained by continuously grinding and hoping that the ingredients drop for you in addition to the mods that you have used. Or you can use real life cash. Of the gear that can be said to not be RNG related it is the Volt Warframe (which means if you have started out with Excalibur and Loki then you are reliant upon the... you guessed it, RNG!) How then can you expect for John Q. Lootradar (gonna be stealing him for now MJ12) to reasonably contribute? (Especially since if we're being consistent then he probably has no Neurodes, only an immeasurable supply of Nano Spores, Polymer Bundles, and Ferrite). The only way for 9001 hour player John Q. Lootradar and 30 minute Chosen Player of the Random Number God to progress through the game is through luck. Luck is the only way to advance because the only way to enhance your character and gear is through mods (which relies on the Random Number Generator), blueprints (again Random Nmber Generator), or by paying real cash (and it reeks of Pay to Win).

Ftlog, learn how to use paragraphs please.

Sedna has robedo and alloy plate (and can easily be run without shield mods). It's incredibly easy to farm both now. By the time you've managed to unlock phorid any one will have some decent mods and should have been able to build a handful of weapons. Getting to eris also lets you have access to some of the best and easiest mod farms (high level infested defense missions) in the game.

Volt is actually worse because he doesn't really have any offensive powers worth using vs infested. It would have been a cake walk with mag/ember/rhino. Even exaclibur would be better since his slash and dash can take out mobs so much easier and be used used for mobility. Loki's decoy and invisibility are amazing for bosses.

Confirmed by steve in Tiwtch chat.Passives are coming.30s will not be so squishy.

I guarantee that people will still $#*(@ and moan and say that they aren't big enough. And get mad about how the current shield mod is going to be taken out of the loot table and made really rare.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Aggh

[Exterminatus]

Ftlog, learn how to use paragraphs please.

Sedna has robedo and alloy plate (and can easily be run without shield mods). It's incredibly easy to farm both now. By the time you've managed to unlock phorid any one will have some decent mods and should have been able to build a handful of weapons. Getting to eris also lets you have access to some of the best and easiest mod farms (high level infested defense missions) in the game.

Volt is actually worse because he doesn't really have any offensive powers worth using vs infested. It would have been a cake walk with mag/ember/rhino. Even exaclibur would be better since his slash and dash can take out mobs so much easier and be used used for mobility. Loki's decoy and invisibility are amazing for bosses.

You're missing the forest for the trees. Do I have to repeat it out loud and with as much subtlety as a meteoroid hitting Tunguska? RNG is a S#&$ty for leveling progression because it screws over people being unlucky, is completely unsatisfying because weapon ranks mean nothing unless you have mods, and is completely dissonent and random as a basis of balancing.

Yes I exaggerated John Q. Lootradar's luck but it still doesn't mean that RNG is a completely rational or fair method of progression. But with what has been said recently, the only point now is to quibble over the implementation of the passives.

[[DE]Rebecca]

Confirmed by steve in Tiwtch chat.Passives are coming.30s will not be so squishy.

Basic Stats like Health and Sheilds will be Passively Upgraded in an upcoming update.

Let's put this namecalling thread to rest.