The Eviscerators Megathread

[Calayne]

I agree with Neutralred on this matter.

 

Mods are actually one issue ThePresident brought up earlier, about mods being hard to acquire. I agree to that, and he's made a good point of it. I think as a whole, Earth should be easier (Though let's consider this a given), Bleed mechanics may require some revision, and to top it off at some point in time, this mod could be implemented.

 

I can definitely see the benefits of having such a mod, and it would surely make Impact and Blast status procs by enemies far, far less frustrating assuming it also mitigates the proc chance when hit. 

 

However, until the bleed mechanic has been revised, we still have a problem in our hands.

 

I tried a couple of invasion missions earlier, and can guess that Eviscerators have roughly the following traits:

 

20% chance to cause bleed per blade,

Deals about 60-70 damage per tick on a level 22 Eviscerator.

About 5 ticks each proc, meaning 300 damage in total. 

 

Which comes as no surprise, really, to everyone and anyone who has ever been hit by an Eviscerator. Quite a ridiculous amount.

 

So the suggestions we have compiled are as follows:

1.) Bleed can't kill us,

2.) Damage, bleed damage and proc chance drop after bouncing,

3.) No bleeding chance at all for ricocheting blades,

4.) No bleed when shields are up,

5.) Make bleed a fixed percentage of health, rather than damage-dependent,

6.) Healing gear also stops status procs.

 

Did I miss anything? 

 

Now, most of these seem like good ideas: We really do have a healthy choice of ways we can go about this.

 

Assuming Eviscerators are toned down in Earth, I like the suggestion where Bleed cannot kill us, and the damage and proc chance decrease with bounce. To be honest, I like the idea of bleeding through shields, though that's up for debate. However, at the same time, I'd like bleed to be controlled: Neither too low, with 2-3 per tick of Lancers, nor the 60-70 per tick of the Eviscerators. That's just obscene. At the same time, I would also put forward the suggestion to not make bleeding procs stack. That's really quite absurd, given the damage dealt.

 

As for Healing gear stopping status proc, I think that covers quite a huge range of issues, though I feel it may trivialize the effect of bleed. But then again, it is a very attractive idea that may help Gear play a slightly more strategic role in our games, as well.

 

So assuming again that we implement the changes, the hope is that bleed becomes a challenging mechanism, but not downright monstrous: If the damage of bleed were toned down, I think most would agree it should be able to bypass shields. However, if the damage of bleed should be scaled with damage dealt, then I have to agree that shields should prevent bleed, so that cases of being completely blasted when hit once is more fair. 

 

To summarise, I personally would go for the change of fixing the bleed damage to a percentage of player health. This means controlled bleeding is allowed to bypass shields, thereby also presenting a threat. However, this bleed damage cannot kill us, to allow us a chance to retaliate. At the same time, everyone becomes a legitimate threat, though not an extreme one, since bleed deals a fixed amount based on player health. With this, gears will be able to cope with the bleed, and the threat of death is still present, while not being overly sudden of frustrating.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Calayne

[taiiat]

Obviously, if they have friends with assault rifles in large numbers who are flanking you, that makes things uglier. But that isn't an eviscerator problem, it's an Earth problem. Earth introduces elite lancers and hellions and the eviscerators and throws in the old standbys of shotgunners and towering assault troopers wielding miniguns, all at once. It would be awfully nice to introduce these elements more gradually, allowing Tenno to digest them, or to allow new players routes from Venus into other planets to prepare better. Or something.

that's true... there are a lot of new Enemies there. 

since Venus happens to have manged to still be Corpus, by the time Tenno get to Earth, they've only seen maybe one or two Gunners and Bombards/Napalms on Mercury (mostly Defense and Survival if they tried it), and haven't had enough encounters to even really understand those enemies, let alone half a dozen others.

 

Derp, sorry for spam posting, but having thought about it actually I think this idea is a really incredibly good one on many levels. I would actually say that after each bounce, the blades ought to have lessened bleed and do much less damage. For one thing it makes total intuitive sense that the cutting edges would be dulled after they've bounced off a wall, and for another thing the experience of being destroyed by an unpredictable, crazily-rebounding projectile does definitely qualify as more pointlessly unfun than anything else about evis.

it does logically make sense, and it keeps rooms from becoming a laserfield. but leaves Eviscerators to still be an enemy which matters, since they all should.

 

1 - No bleed effect should be applied if there's a shield between you and the projectile, simple as that. I agree that some other effects could still bypass the shield, such as blast, viral, toxic, gas, etc, because of obvious reasons (like blast being a shockwave that just blows you away...), but if nothing reaches your skin/armor, then why would you bleed?

3. possibly add a mod called something like "Resilience", which reduces effectiveness of procs on the user by a set percentage; (like, 10-15% per rank, going up as high as 75%?) this means reducing the proc duration and damage/effect affecting the Tenno. You sacrifice a mod slot for the ability to, say, walk nearly unhindered through an enemy Frost Leader's snowglobe or only get staggered after taking several explosion rather than being swept off your feet by the first... Juggernaut style.

1 - let's get scientific! seriously. 

  the generally accepted propositions of Shield theories are generally either particle or pure Energy(slightly more bullsh*t, less fathomable) barriers, which either attempt to absorb(stupidly inefficient) or deflect incoming blows. 

however, in order to keep Shields from keeping you from being able to touch the ground, hold a Gun, pick up a glass, etc - they have limitations. generally velocity limitations before they will kick in. so they will kick in to absorb or deflect ballistic or relatavistic(good luck) speed projectiles, but will not for things that are moving more slowly. 

this would generally leave a Shield open to attacks from something like a Sword, which doesn't travel very quickly compared to a ballistic weapon, but instead has much higher mass and cutting power. so it's very likely a Shield, similar to modern Kevlar, would be nearly useless against a Blade.

 

what does that mean in game terms? well, Blades to have to fight Shields currently - and i can live with that. but being able to cause Bleeding through that Shield seems plenty likely, since the Shield won't stop the Blade, you could still cut someone while the Shield is 'up'. 

Ballistic Weapons though.... nope. Hitscan Weaponry should not be creating Bleeding while Shields are up.

Bolt Weaponry (including sawblades here), possibly, i'm leaning more towards yes as a Risk/Reward thing.

Corpus Plasmatic Weaponry, perhaps. the slower projectiles like Supra(awesome opportunity here to give Supra a decent Status Chance so it has an awesome niche, Digital Extremes. hint hint), definitely. the faster ones like Lanka, maybe not, those could be considered above the threshold.

 

 

3 - don't forget in terms of balance, if a Mod like that existed, Status Effects would increase and become 'worse' when that Mod is implemented. because balance is built around the maximum capability, not middleground. so if that Mod existed, there's a VERY high chance that Mod would become a new required Mod to have equipped in order to not get rekd.

just as generic Damage Mods like Serration, Hornet Strike, and Multishot - are required in order to efficiently and effectively kill enemies with your guns. their sheer existence means you need to have them.

[Prios]

Related to evis, but also to other frequent killers, my suggestion about popping up "death tips" related to whatever killed you wasn't as joking as it might have seemed. A lot of games do it, and I think for good reason: it does help, especially after you've been killed during a confusing and overwhelming combat (which is exactly the type of combat most likely to kill somebody).

 

It's not obvious at first that eviscerators have a poor turn rate, for example. Then there's the Napalm's very slow-moving but extremely dangerous, lingering, and kinda-difficult-to-see projectile; the Hellion's exponential increase in danger when airborne (but also his destructible jetpack); the Stalker's devastating dash attack (partly solvable by getting to higher ground, though obviously you'll be struggling against his Pull ability); and maybe vague little hints when you go down against bosses ("Ruk's armor is impenetrable. You'll need to watch and wait for a gap to appear").

 

Just tossing another little idea on the table.

[syle]

broken

[Calayne]

Related to evis, but also to other frequent killers, my suggestion about popping up "death tips" related to whatever killed you wasn't as joking as it might have seemed. A lot of games do it, and I think for good reason: it does help, especially after you've been killed during a confusing and overwhelming combat (which is exactly the type of combat most likely to kill somebody).

 

It's not obvious at first that eviscerators have a poor turn rate, for example. Then there's the Napalm's very slow-moving but extremely dangerous, lingering, and kinda-difficult-to-see projectile; the Hellion's exponential increase in danger when airborne (but also his destructible jetpack); the Stalker's devastating dash attack (partly solvable by getting to higher ground, though obviously you'll be struggling against his Pull ability); and maybe vague little hints when you go down against bosses ("Ruk's armor is impenetrable. You'll need to watch and wait for a gap to appear").

 

Just tossing another little idea on the table.

 

That's an interesting idea. Reminds me of a certain game which starts with a Call and ends with a Duty.

 

But that is a very good idea for beginners, though. Seems to me that if you die to something as a beginner, it could very well be a lack of understanding how that enemy works. For example, Napalms, with their ridiculous long range and "Fire hazards", could leave tips about... Not standing in the fire. Sounds crazy, but it's a good reminder.

 

As for mods becoming a necessity if it's implemented, I actually somewhat disagree: It's true that gameplay and difficulty is based around the maximum of what is ever possible, but in this case, a reduction does not necessitate such a drastic increase, especially one that is not exactly a core component of a game (No one goes, "Wow! Join Warframe! It has status chance!").

 

This is the case of the "Intruder" mod: While it does increase time to hack, that does not mean DE will drastically increase the time to hack, just to accommodate this mod. Rather, the mod is there to make life easier. I shall now resist the temptation to go off on a good long tirade about damage mods and multishot mods.

 

But I think it's a good idea to have a mod for status chance prevention or proc effectiveness reduction since this is a field which is actively in motion during game play. At any rate, this will be a complement to the "Bleed" that is more like "Decapitate, destroy and debilitate" of the Eviscerators than a substitute. 

[ThePresident777]

Congratulations.

 

 

Hotfix 12.1.2

 

Changes:

Earth enemy balancing and tweaks including removing Eviscerators from regular Earth missions; they now only appear after 5 minutes in Survival or 5 Waves in Defense.

[Calayne]

Success. ^^

 

I'm gonna go run it again with the same build. Hopefully, Elite Lancers aren't still taking me out in seconds.

[Bibliothekar]

3 - don't forget in terms of balance, if a Mod like that existed, Status Effects would increase and become 'worse' when that Mod is implemented. because balance is built around the maximum capability, not middleground. so if that Mod existed, there's a VERY high chance that Mod would become a new required Mod to have equipped in order to not get rekd.

Hm, dunno. Elemental resistance mods (fire, toxin, electricity, laser, ice) have been buffed big style (from 18% max to 50/60% max) - and I don't see that e.g. Toxic Ancients or Scorches have become more dangerous if you go without them. Rather the opposite. Scorches don't roast you within a few seconds anymore, Toxics don't leave a poisonous cloud anymore ... Electric Crawlers are a nuisance, but no threat. So no, I don't think status chance and damage would skyrocket if we got this mod.

[Kiyryite]

1.  Maybe he had physique, you fact-checked yourself

 

2.  Sounds like the only eviscerators someone's gone up against have been under level 10.  You enjoying your babyframe?

I can't even be one shotted by level 38 eviscerators they honestly aren't that tough

[TheHeraldXII]

Definitely over the top right now, I went from full health to nothing in a 740 hp frost from a single instance of bleed from a level 15-18 (I admit I didn't bother to check exactly) eviscerator. That's too much damage from anything for a single shot.

 

I can't even be one shotted by level 38 eviscerators they honestly aren't that tough

 

Seriously dude, I just played a level 15-18 mission where a single bleed proc took me down while I had a rank 10 vitality equipped. It's got nothing to do with skill and everything to do with a single bleed proc doing over 750 damage before the Eviscerator in question even gets above level 20.

Edited February 15, 2014 by TheHeraldXII

[taiiat]

Hm, dunno. Elemental resistance mods (fire, toxin, electricity, laser, ice) have been buffed big style (from 18% max to 50/60% max) - and I don't see that e.g. Toxic Ancients or Scorches have become more dangerous if you go without them. Rather the opposite. Scorches don't roast you within a few seconds anymore, Toxics don't leave a poisonous cloud anymore ... Electric Crawlers are a nuisance, but no threat. So no, I don't think status chance and damage would skyrocket if we got this mod.

well, Digital Extremes knows 'nobody' uses them even with those boosts... :s

[Seasonsofclarity]

I can't even be one shotted by level 38 eviscerators they honestly aren't that tough

Situations are unique, as it has been mentioned.

 

I've seen 300HP frames survive Bleed procs made by lvl 35+ enemies.

 

I've seen 800-900HP frames be one-shot (meaning one full countdown) by Bleed from lvl 20 enemies.

 

It's impossible to predict, prepare, or prevent.

[Bibliothekar]

Ok, just to point out again how ridiculous their bleed damage is:

I was doing the Pluto invasion last night, siding with the Corpus. Went in with my Saryn (660 shields, 990 health, 155 armor, because "cleaner" build, so no place for Steel Fiber - not that armor actually matters for bleed). One, one stray sawblade (eviscarators there were almost all level 40) and I was down. 155 health lost per bleed tick.

First, I went in with my Latron Prime, modded for crit / corrosive. After just one run, I switched to my Vandaltron, which is modded just for raw (crit) damage. Lancers went down with just one headshot (~3k due to their armor, same build does ~10k on average and up to 19k to those on Earth). Mini-gunners mostly took two shots. Eviscerators up to three! (One reason is, that their head is pretty tiny, so headshots often ended up as chestshots because the map was shaking just as I shot.)

I did this mission to help the Corpus, but I think, I send more of them to be slaughtered than I killed Grineer.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Bibliothekar

[Seasonsofclarity]

Ok, just to point out again how ridiculous their bleed damage is:

I was doing the Pluto invasion last night, siding with the Corpus. Went in with my Saryn (660 shields, 990 health, 155 armor, because "cleaner" build, so no place for Steel Fiber - not that armor actually matters for bleed). One, one stray sawblade (eviscarators there were almost all level 40) and I was down. 155 health lost per bleed tick.

First, I went in with my Latron Prime, modded for crit / corrosive. After just one run, I switched to my Vandaltron, which is modded just for raw (crit) damage. Lancers went down with just one headshot (~3k due to their armor, same build does ~10k on average and up to 19k to those on Earth). Mini-gunners mostly took two shots. Eviscerators up to three! (One reason is, that their head is pretty tiny, so headshots often ended up as chestshots because the map was shaking just as I shot.)

I did this mission to help the Corpus, but I think, I send more of them to be slaughtered than I killed Grineer.

Slightly off topic, this reminded me of the old steroids jokes.

Which made me wonder if shooting them in the balls would be better (reverse steroids).

 

But this is pretty much part for the course.  It's even worse when the Bleed is caused by a pot-shot from a Lancer while you still have full shields.

[SgtCapricorn]

 I've been soloing the Invasion on Eris today, and I quickly noticed that something in there was shaving off massive portions of my health.

 For solo runs I use a Saryn who has 540 Shield, 750 Health, and 232 Armor. Pretty tanky.

 

 But if an Eviscerator gets a proc and I start taking the slash damage bleed?

 I have 6 seconds of taking 60 Damage a second that ignores Shield (and I imagine armor, or other frames would just die isntantly)

 320 Damage that ignores shields and armor from a single attack?

 That's FAR too much damage. FAR too much.

 

 It does not happen every time., but if you're unlucky you can easily find yourself suddenly go from full health and shields to dead (and still nearly full shields) even while using this tanky of a frame.

 

 One proc and for the rest of the mission I am struggling to find health packs. I almost never manage to fully recover from a single proc, and can only hope to get enough health to survive a third proc instead of just dying to two.

 

 I'm fine with shield ignore, as it makes Armor more important, but when it ignores both and does absurd damage its a little bit silly.

[Elvang]

The bleed damage scales with quickly level too.

[gnat6]

Slash damage does not ignore armor any other frame just dies when a eviscerator gets a bleed proc unless you have a high rank vitality on.

Edited February 21, 2014 by gnat6

[theasl]

they supposedly already nerfed it...

but yeah, a few weeks ago i had 1 bleed proc (mid-level, actually) take my maxxed and potatoed nova from full health to dead. >40 damage per proc. that was a bit excessive.

Edited February 21, 2014 by theasl

[Silraed]

They should lower the damage on the bleed and have it not scale with level. That would be their easiest solution.

 

I would still rather it not proc through shields though, that is just silly.

[.Kitsune]

I honestly think it should be more of a percentage-based proc.  Depending on the maximum health of the frame at the time of the proc, add the reduction by armor, and then apply damage.  But yeah, I've noticed that bleed is just ridiculous, and eviscerators are just crazy.  Even when I manage to pick them out, my team usually doesn't get by without some sort of issue because of them.  I've gotten it as a nightmare once, we were caught off-guard by one in a hall and the blades managed to bounce around just enough to down us all rather quickly.  Even the Rhino in the party.  It just wasn't cool.

[Bibliothekar]

they supposedly already nerfed it...

Eviscerators have been banned from Earth, unless you go Defense/Survival beyond 5 waves/minutes. Apart from that, nothing has been done yet, IIRC.

[Elvang]

Eviscerators have been banned from Earth, unless you go Defense/Survival beyond 5 waves/minutes. Apart from that, nothing has been done yet, IIRC.

 

They also appear in interceptions.

[CY13ERPUNK]

its a known "bug/feature"

DE has taken much feedback on the issue and HOPEFULLY they are leaning towards the "no bleed procs thru shields" option

ie you'd have to lose all of your shields FIRST, and then and ONLY then could the bleed proc on you

[Garuger]

As we all know Eviscerators are quite powerful and some may say they are even over powered ( witch i agree on that part ) .However i found the perfect way to balance them and it is quite simple and it is by exchanging the stats of their Miter with our Miter  that way they will be properly be nerfed 

 

Discuss below 

[IIJetfireII]

 

Bleed Proc/Eviscerators

The back and forth debate about the real problem with Eviscerators has been going on for some time. On one hand, new players are finding Earth has become an impassable wall due to the level of difficulty the Eviscerators possess, and on the other hand, the way bleed proc is applied to your Warframe can be a death sentence to the highest level of players. Veteran players feel that by modding your weapon/Warframe properly you should have no problem tackling an Eviscerator, but agree that bleed proc needs some tweaking. Some solutions suggested include:

 

·         Making AI bleed proc only happen if your shields are down.

·         Create a new Mod with a % resistance to proc damage.

·         Tone down Eviscerators firing rate/frequency.

·         Keep their stats the way they are but make them a ‘Leader’.