De Fails Hard~

[Archistopheles]

The servers just crashed, so I think they've succeeded here.

 

Blame me, please.

 

I have a reputation of being a nuisance to keep up.

[Skynin]

The servers just crashed, so I think they've succeeded here.

DE just testing new services and such this week, remember

[Darkmoone1]

Fail Faster eh?

 

......words to live by. Excellent post by the way. We need faster and more drastic changes. DE needs to be less cautious and take more risks. We are in a "Open Beta" anyway so why not?

 

....Not a complete though on the subject, but this does link as to why I feel like they aren't churning out more frame buffs or changes in general. Instead of having some every week they've been churning them out every 10 weeks on their major updates, or even churning every 5 weeks if we're lucky on the mini big updates. When we do get these changes they sometimes happen to only get to a few frames out of the ones we would like changed or barely make a meaningful change. Yes the Frost changes were dramatic and I applaud them for taking a risk, but this is one frame out of how many that has been dying for a rework?

 

 

      So if I were to analyze your OP into my own words of feedback to DE, I would say to fail faster by make more dramatic changes to our warframes and something that will actually change the frame in a meaningful way. Because sometimes a lot of something is better than a little bit of nothing.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Darkmoone1

[Cyberdown]

I mean this cant be what people want....is it?

 

Developers just pumping out a skeleton game, charging you for it, then over the next couple years it might be fantastic or might completely change, or it might suck and just fail?

 

All the great games start with a clear cut vision, and they stick to it.  If developers listen to the community to make a game it always turns to crap, and it divides the community.  Major difference between feedback and letting the community more or less decide on concepts and systems btw.

 

Anyway, fail faster mentality is why there are so many crappy games out there, which are in broken unfinished states, with the developers rattling the proverbial change cup to the hordes of players walking by.

 

Yeah every now and then a major hit game could come from this process, someone mentioned minecraft (I cant quote on these forums) and I think that game would have been a big hit regardless of the approach they took to developing it.

 

This video and this mentality can be better named "throw a bunch of S#&$ at the wall and see if any corn kernals stick" rather than fail faster.

 

People will stop supporting these upstarts if the norm becomes failing at it faster.  Right now we are in the golden age of crowdfunding, mostly because just about every game that has gone through this isn't even finished yet, at least the major ones.

 

I think soon enough this mentality will collapse in on itself, as gamers get sick of paying for unfinished games.  Hell im already there, wont touch early access on steam, wont bother with a beta, could care less about beta gifts. 

 

Mark my words, this mentality will collapse in on itself.  Then we can perhaps go back to the old days of buying a fully developed game that was made with a clear vision, vs the unfinished games with no vision more or less conceptually developed by whoever was the most vocal on the forums.

[RoboDoge]

Problem is that we have never ending cycle of disappointment and content. And that Forums are often plagued with childish rage-crying-butthurt threads, and as opposed to them, fanboy threads.

 

There is isnt enough constructive feedback, most of the forums conversations end in arguing and insulting. Also, DE isnt paying enough attention to the forums or even caring about them. If you want something noticed, it is better to PM DE staff than make a thread.

Edited February 14, 2014 by RoboDoge

[Boatsniper]

Nothing.

 

Community representatives are what SOE used to decide to implement their NGE to Star Wars Galaxies in 2005. Google it if you don't know what I mean.  They used a meeting of community representatives to decide to utterly change their game and screw 3/4 of their playerbase.

Digital Extremes is not Sony Online Entertainment. Warframe is not a Star Wars MMORPG. A single guest speaker on a public event is not a group of players meeting privately with the developers. 2014 is not 2005. Dogs are not cats.

 

In short, those two games are incomparable. A community representative could keep them on track and ask important questions regarding future developments and gameplay additions/changes. A lot can be accomplished.

[SolidSp33d]

I mean this cant be what people want....is it?

 

Developers just pumping out a skeleton game, charging you for it, then over the next couple years it might be fantastic or might completely change, or it might suck and just fail?

 

All the great games start with a clear cut vision, and they stick to it.  If developers listen to the community to make a game it always turns to crap, and it divides the community.  Major difference between feedback and letting the community more or less decide on concepts and systems btw.

 

Anyway, fail faster mentality is why there are so many crappy games out there, which are in broken unfinished states, with the developers rattling the proverbial change cup to the hordes of players walking by.

 

Yeah every now and then a major hit game could come from this process, someone mentioned minecraft (I cant quote on these forums) and I think that game would have been a big hit regardless of the approach they took to developing it.

 

This video and this mentality can be better named "throw a bunch of S#&$ at the wall and see if any corn kernals stick" rather than fail faster.

 

People will stop supporting these upstarts if the norm becomes failing at it faster.  Right now we are in the golden age of crowdfunding, mostly because just about every game that has gone through this isn't even finished yet, at least the major ones.

 

I think soon enough this mentality will collapse in on itself, as gamers get sick of paying for unfinished games.  Hell im already there, wont touch early access on steam, wont bother with a beta, could care less about beta gifts. 

 

Mark my words, this mentality will collapse in on itself.  Then we can perhaps go back to the old days of buying a fully developed game that was made with a clear vision, vs the unfinished games with no vision more or less conceptually developed by whoever was the most vocal on the forums.

 

You're mixing up "doing everything the community says" and "putting your ideas out there early so that you can find out it sucks before you invest too much into it." The latter is a basic design concept that is absolutely true. You're describing previous which we aren't asking them to do. Doing the previous and not doing the later are why so many games fail, and we are telling DE not to follow in those shoes.

 

Doing everything the community says is no better than doing everything the no nothing publishers say, or worse considering how many conflicting things there are with such a vast audience. Not everything said to DE will be worth listening too, but they will get good feedback from many. Feedback on what is sucking before they are in too deep is what is important. Critically important. Like take a class on design and it's the first thing they tell you important. (yet it's easy to forget or shy from)

Edited February 14, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[Archistopheles]

If developers listen to the community to make a game it always turns to crap

 

You misunderstand.

 

I do not want them to listen to all our ideas, nor release things half-assed or bare-boned.

 

The idea is that, for example, instead of taking all that time to develop Damage 2.0, only to then change it completely 2 more times shortly after, they could have released a more raw concept, then changed it as they got numeric feedback from players.

 

You gotta remember that more than half the data/feedback DE relys on is not words, but numbers on a spreadsheet recorded by their servers.

[ShadowCore67]

Hooray for motivational speeches!

[(PSN)wintersandman]

I mean this cant be what people want....is it?

 

Developers just pumping out a skeleton game, charging you for it, then over the next couple years it might be fantastic or might completely change, or it might suck and just fail?

 

All the great games start with a clear cut vision, and they stick to it.  If developers listen to the community to make a game it always turns to crap, and it divides the community.  Major difference between feedback and letting the community more or less decide on concepts and systems btw.

 

Anyway, fail faster mentality is why there are so many crappy games out there, which are in broken unfinished states, with the developers rattling the proverbial change cup to the hordes of players walking by.

 

Yeah every now and then a major hit game could come from this process, someone mentioned minecraft (I cant quote on these forums) and I think that game would have been a big hit regardless of the approach they took to developing it.

 

This video and this mentality can be better named "throw a bunch of S#&$ at the wall and see if any corn kernals stick" rather than fail faster.

 

People will stop supporting these upstarts if the norm becomes failing at it faster.  Right now we are in the golden age of crowdfunding, mostly because just about every game that has gone through this isn't even finished yet, at least the major ones.

 

I think soon enough this mentality will collapse in on itself, as gamers get sick of paying for unfinished games.  Hell im already there, wont touch early access on steam, wont bother with a beta, could care less about beta gifts. 

 

Mark my words, this mentality will collapse in on itself.  Then we can perhaps go back to the old days of buying a fully developed game that was made with a clear vision, vs the unfinished games with no vision more or less conceptually developed by whoever was the most vocal on the forums.

I think it will prove out for some and not so much for others. It all depends on how responsive the developer is. 

The problem is the community around a game. Developers try to build hype around an expected release date for specific games so they have a good launch. The community following starts to grow and builds more hype which forces developers to rush the game so the hype doesn't evaporate. The game then launches half-baked and infuriates the community. 

Some games like this completely fail. But others have turned it around and redefined the game. FFXIV is one that comes to mind that did this exact same thing. They couldn't push the game out without pissing off the community but they also released an unfinished product. It's the catch-22 that people fail to remember. We are a 'now' society. We report an issue and want it fixed same day but sometimes it may take 2-3 days or longer to find the fix or appropriate fix.

It all depends on how things are managed.

[MysticalMoo]

Be careful lads they (DE) have started employing graduates to monitor and moderate these forums. It seems even though we pay cold hard cash and generate a massive amount of real life time and effort into promoting this game for Digital Extremes they dont like our opinions on the game. This could end up in a warning post on your account for an issue which has NOTHING to the rules of the forums. Yeah its beta and i think the IQ (thats intelligence Quota for the moderators reading this) has somewhat diminished with these guys. Im so glad they have put a warning post on me i feel special, enough to no longer promote this game, to no longer twitch stream it with my co partners. And hopefully i might even get a game ban where i might just have to log in to another game and spend my time and resources testing their platform. Freaking Digital Extremes please employ some real adults to moderate least those with life experience who understand criticism.

[Archistopheles]

Be careful lads they (DE) have started employing graduates to monitor and moderate these forums.

 

 

I was enjoying watching the orange and green names pop into the bottom list of "users reading this topic," and just so you know. I know what you know, and this thread is partially and silently dedicated to things which also cannot be said. 

[Kalenath]

Digital Extremes is not Sony Online Entertainment. Warframe is not a Star Wars MMORPG. A single guest speaker on a public event is not a group of players meeting privately with the developers. 2014 is not 2005. Dogs are not cats.

 

In short, those two games are incomparable. A community representative could keep them on track and ask important questions regarding future developments and gameplay additions/changes. A lot can be accomplished.

 

It's not ABOUT the game or game type. It's about how little a community actually knows about what goes on behind the scenes. (or cares)

 

We don't know the plan. We don't know what DE has in store for the future. At least half of the people who post here in this subforum obviously couldn't care less. And you want one of them to 'represent' everyone?

 

That is about on par with what SOE did. Select people with NO CLUE about what is actually going on so they can screw everything up and blame others.

 

Or do you want a 'token' community representative? Someone to look pretty for the camera and be quiet the whole time? Someone to burn in effigy or stalk when you don't get what you want? I am serious. Is this what you want? Because if you think DE is going to take people in and just HAND them the plan...

Edited February 14, 2014 by Kalenath

[Archistopheles]

This thread isn't asking for a community representative... That's Rebecca and Megan's job.

[Cyberdown]

again sorry these forums suck I cant quote people.  I know stating that listening to the community does more harm to the game would enrage some people, it always does.  And I didn't misunderstand.

 

My point is, if the developers need to have the community dictate what the game should be, its going to suck, because games that lack developer vision always end up as soulless pieces of garbage, and once that original batch of players moves on the game is stuck with what they wanted.

 

This happened to Xyson.  literally exactly what we are talking about.  Developer tried to appeal to a community that was totally split on what type of sandbox game they wanted.  So he compromised, and lost all but about 10-15 players because of that, In the end the game still sucks.

 

I know in todays narcissistic society we all believe that we as gamers have all the answers, but we don't.  Developers that make great games don't need community input on how to make their game fun. 

[Indyssien]

I would like the OP to be stickied as a "READ THIS BEFORE YOU POST" sort of thing.  

 

It has seemed to me for a long while now that the community is driving the devs to do weird things to the game.  There has also been an increase in the typical "rant/rage/leaving" threads on the forums.  

 

It's always good to take a step back and think about the situation from another viewpoint.  The community has definitely started to swing toward the negative rather than positive side of the scales.  This game is still in beta, and honestly, the longer it stays in beta, the better the game gets.   There is no way for a company to employ enough testers to find all the bugs in any game, let alone a MMOTPS.  There are simply too many variables.  Directing anger at DE doesn't solve anything.  Constructive criticism will always accomplish more than insults.  

 

TL;DR-

 

The OP brings a much needed balance to the forums and should be read by everyone before they make yet another pointless rant thread.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Indyssien

[Archistopheles]

~snip~

 

You get me :)

[Ventura_Highway]

Used to play Spiral Knights, stopped playing because the devs stopped talking.

Don't be like them DE please.

[rhoenix]

I was enjoying watching the orange and green names pop into the bottom list of "users reading this topic," and just so you know. I know what you know, and this thread is partially and silently dedicated to things which also cannot be said.

*insert Inception dramatic noise here*

Just to add my own voice to this thread, I'd like to test more things and offer feedback before it's released. I upgraded my founder account to GM because I support DE's overall vision for this game, and would like to see them achieve it. With that said, despite all the cool things hinted at, I do feel that DE could benefit from more testing before release in the broader playerbase.

I'd be happy to help with said testing, and offer feedback for doing so. I just feel disgruntled sometimes since it feels that DE much more often adds stuff like weapons than new mission types, or further adding depth to gameplay. THe Leaders added recently are a great step toward adding gameplay depth, and I'd like to see more such things to gameplay.

From the sounds of it, the Proxy War thing upcoming should also help with this, but we simply don't have enough info yet to tell for sure.

[Yphex]

Dear OP what would exactly be the changes that people would have loved to see? Where do you feel changes weren't drastic or courageous enough? 

 

I think DE actually did exactly what was said in the EC episode, they released a fairly raw game into a very long beta and started improving step by step on what was a fairly raw game at the start and improved the game gradually to get the product more and more polished. Actually that's exactly what James advocates and not that you need rip the game apart over and over again and never get a polished product out that would be just as bad as the variation of over thinking everything.

[Archistopheles]

Dear OP what would exactly be the changes that people would have loved to see? Where do you feel changes weren't drastic or courageous enough? 

 

 

The thread is a swirling mass of complex ideas inter-woven with various secondary messages. However, if you'd like a few choice examples, I can name an obvious one.

 

Melee 2.0 keeps getting pushed back instead of being released in a basic form for, lets say, just longswords to begin with. Give everyone a prototype weapon that'll get deleted after and throw them into an alert mission specifically designed to test out the concept.

 

There's a fine line between holding back spoilers and letting us know when to brace for impact of things being released as well. Zephyrs build cost blindsided the community and caused a wave of rage-ripples through the forums.

 

Scott was so concerned about protecting himself from anger that he preemtively trolled us back when he explained why he changed Frost.

 

Dual Cestra was moved to clan tech.

 

Eh. I need to stop because I'm getting off track and letting my personal feelings influence the discussion.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Archistopheles

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

Dear OP what would exactly be the changes that people would have loved to see? Where do you feel changes weren't drastic or courageous enough? 

 

I think DE actually did exactly what was said in the EC episode, they released a fairly raw game into a very long beta and started improving step by step on what was a fairly raw game at the start and improved the game gradually to get the product more and more polished. Actually that's exactly what James advocates and not that you need rip the game apart over and over again and never get a polished product out that would be just as bad as the variation of over thinking everything.

. It is the knee jerk nature to little changes (I.e. snow globe) that make wonder why a dev team would put too much stock in forums as a source of inspiration. Everyone should focus on adapting to a change before saying its a broken poo sandwich.

[koolen]

good

[Cerokhol]

I half agree with this.

 

The half I don't agree with:

DE has definitely shown that they AREN'T afraid to rip open the guts and shove new stuff in our faces... lets look at Damage 2.0 for example. It came out and got updated and fixed a million and a half times in the first week. But this isn't the first time they completely redid a system in their game... they redid mods, they redid artifacts, they are currently rebuilding the UI, they redid the starchart.

 

If we look at this game as it is now... and look back to a year ago, you can see big changes, and if you watch their live streams you see big changes in the future to come(maybe).

 

The half I do agree with:

DE is too afraid to push out the unfinished raw version. We see every Wednesday, they are putting out the patch late at night, cramming stuff in last min or leaving out stuff for a later patch. There is a huge community playing this game; use them to test and then you can fix and adjust as you go. i want to see the ambitious projects develop, even if they aren't fleshed out yet. We didn't need perfect values for DMG2.0 and it is almost completely different from when it first came out. I would like to see more of that.

[druindo]

EDIT: Odd...I just checked this post only now, 2 hours after completing it, thinking it would post just fine. Apparently that was wrong. The entire format of this post was warped so horrifically that I cannot actually add onto the end of the post and about half of it is missing. I will re-post it correctly and delete this one here in a bit, but I need to step back so I don't rage about it.

 

Hmm, let's start off by saying this:

 

I am human. I make mistakes. I might be hypocritical. Call me out on these things so I can improve.

 

 

Okay.

 

 

First off, thank you for creating this thread. The perspectives of the OP and other posts here have made me re-examine my own point of view.

But they need to start failing ~Faster~

 

<snip>

 

Warframe and it's community is getting a little too rigid. Some of us are starting to get set in our ways to the point where our "things" becomes Preciousss. By doing that, and getting angry when our precious gets changed, we as a community are stifling the growth of this product. However, it's not all our fault, the blame falls on DE as well. 

 

 

[sarcasm] Wait, you mean that more than one party can be at fault!? Amazing! [/sarcasm]

 

In all seriousness, though, I love that you pointed this out. It does seem like that, in many cases, DE is getting blamed entirely or players are being blamed entirely.

 

It's also worth mentioning that DE is the one developing the game. Not the players. DE shouldn't need to compromise their creative vision in order to satisfy the playerbase. I think that there are compromises that need to be made in order to take into account they enjoyment of players. All of the players, not just the majority.

 

 

From about U10-12, we've seen some big additions - but what has really changed? Melee, stealth, parkour, RNG drops, and even the Damage/Armor system has been babied every step of the way. Why? Why not rip it up and give us something raw to chew on for awhile? Well...

 

I remember when Hek, Gorgon, and Rhino were nerfed. I remember when stamina was changed. I remember the recent Brakk, Detron, and now Frost fiasco. I feel like the feedback is still haunting certain developers to the point where their Ego simply cannot take anymore, so they feel like they can't change anything without getting painful negativity from us.

 

That can't, and should not stop them from tearing this game apart and pulling out the guts in front of us.

 

Communicate with your testers so that you can release more ~raw~ systems.

 

I agree with this. First off all, DE insists on calling this a beta. During beta the objective should be to use the input of the target audience to improve the product. This does not appear to be happening. Instead, Warframe seems to be getting more and more content added to it when pre-existing content needs more work. I joined Warframe assuming that there would be wipes and would be changes and overhauls. I'm not really seeing that. I'd rather have the game-play go through massive changes but come out just fine, despite the protests of all the players, than have this game stagnate and fade into nothingness because necessary changes were not made. 

 

 

 

The design council signed on to be your personal guinea pigs. Why aren't you using us? Communication has been an issue from the first day I joined the forums, and to be perfectly honest: It hasn't got much better. Grineeer's workshop is full of cobwebs again because devs are scared of upsetting the community, and the community is angry at the devs for being silent.

 

No... Anger is too strong of a word... I would describe the community right now as impatiently frustrated. We want stuff fast. We don't need it perfect. Like the video touched on. Give us raw, ugly mechanics that we can actually give feedback on instead of pushing it back because the thing isn't perfect.

Edited February 15, 2014 by druindo