Dalu__Ka Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 "but also the first reason Scott gave as to why he changed: The "press 3, eat some chips" remark." Yet he is ok with press 4 to win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinperor Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 You know, by that point you'd think someone would just give the Extra Credit's channel URL to DE and be done with it. I swear, every other day someone post a link to one of their video. I don't mean to say that the video isn't useful or that DE can't profit of it, but you know, that's making a lot of assumption about what DE does or doesn't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishki88 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) That video brought tear to my eye. God that was good. I need a smoke now. Edit: Sorry friend, I didn't read nothing you typed after that video. It said it all for me. Upvote. Edited February 14, 2014 by Ishki88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nenjin Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I guess I agree and disagree with the premise here. I don't necessarily want DE to release something to the community at large in its prototype phase. That's just going to fuel the cries that DE doesn't test anything. What I DO want them to do, is put what they have into the hands of testers. Whether that's the DC, a private test group or w/e. Getting player input before something goes live is what DE is bad about. While it may be nice to drop something on several thousand users to get the most feedback possible, it taints their image and strains the patience of the playerbase as we watch mechanics vascilate between what DE obviously thought was good, the inevitable over-reaction balance adjustment, then the actual balance adjustment to bring it in to line with everyone's expectations. (Assuming that happens, it doesn't always.)So yes, I'd like them to fail faster. Privately, with a group of non-staff testers. I'm more than willing to wait for them to do so, so when it launches it only needs minor tweaks, instead of these massive overhauls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolidSp33d Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) Well said, but I feel like the damage is too much already. The community has become too narrow-minded and rigid as you said, and I fear that it might be a bit too much to fix. Our community has become a bunch of over-exuberant short-tempered people who resort to bullying and pressuring the devs into doing their job. I mean no offense, but this is what I have observed over the past 8 months on the forums. People let their anger simmer instead of letting it stew into well-thought out feedback. And when such people do speak up, their ideas and feedback are truly priceless.Their anger might not be misplaced, but it shouldn't be a blunt force. If you're trying to drill a hole, a sledgehammer the size of a mountain will not do. We need to be precise and well-informed of our complaints and decisions so as to give better feedback to the developers and help them "tear this game apart" in a good way. This is simply what I feel. If you disagree, let me know in a well-informed and thoughtful manner. It's certainly not too late. A bunch of ravenous brats will just tear away at an idea harder, which helps them "fail faster." They just need to shift the bs from the useful feedback from the words spit by those people. They started this project so they wouldn't get bullied around by publishers. Getting right to the gamers is the best way, but we are people to, and we have people who are just as naive as those publishers if not worse. Find the feedback, ignore the nay saying. Edited February 14, 2014 by SolidSp33d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatsniper Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Is it so hard to invite a community representative to the Dev-streams? Just imagine how much could be accomplished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalenath Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) Half the people here- 'CHANGE IS BAD!' Other half- 'CHANGE IT NOW!' Damned if you do and damned if you don't. "but also the first reason Scott gave as to why he changed: The "press 3, eat some chips" remark." Yet he is ok with press 4 to win? IS he? Is it so hard to invite a community representative to the Dev-streams? Just imagine how much could be accomplished. Nothing. Community representatives are what SOE used to decide to implement their NGE to Star Wars Galaxies in 2005. Google it if you don't know what I mean. They used a meeting of community representatives to decide to utterly change their game and screw 3/4 of their playerbase. Edited February 14, 2014 by Kalenath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidushime Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I like the game, i really don't mind if it stays in the beta forever. Coming from games that crashed and burned (Ghost Recon Online and War Inc.) I think that the Devs are doing a great job at keeping in touch with the players. But really though we get at least 1 livestream a WEEK and 2 every other week. These Devs are very outgoing, This is by far the best game i have ever played. Ghost Recon Future Soldier and Socom 4 for me; those games took chunks of my gaming dignity and piddled all over them. I can say that DE is holding my attention with warframe and the game has flaws a plenty, but they built something I play everyday. With my attention span wanning, I don't stay in communities for long, I've been here for a whole year. That's an accomplishment and I even spent money (Haven't spent this much on a free to play game in 4-5 years and I've been part of at least 20 Alpha/Beta releases. Every week we get a Primetime, every two weeks a Livestream. What other company does it? Now I have gripes and issues, but the potential is hanging on, maybe not realized and dragging, and tiresome, but it's got enough spark to bring me back for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalu__Ka Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 IS he? I dunno, seemed like the right thing to say at the time. I was still young and naive back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ourobor Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 video is awful. so many classic games made it big right out the gate, partially because they didn't waste gamers time trudging through the concept phase and early access phase, burning out players, creating anger when people expect the game to go one way then find out it goes the other way. Fail faster? Yeah if you expect to fail and want to minimize how much money you lose. This video is exactly what is wrong with games these days. Just put out whatever, hope the fans keep giving you money while you actually make a good game, that is most likely outdated by the time its actually in a good state. Minecraft didn't. Clearly it's possible. Furthermore, that is completely wrong. Every well run software project has to generate requirements by talking to what will be users of that product. Just because they didn't run it by everyone ever, didn't mean it didn't happen. They absolutely have acceptance tests, user profiles, things like that that help them understand where one design they came up with failed and one succeeded. Finally, in the development of software, you're project will fail if you don't talk to your stakeholders. This is the biggest mistake you can make in software development because you run the risk of developing something your customers don't want. And it's easy to mitigate that risk just by talking to them and asking them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archistopheles Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 "but also the first reason Scott gave as to why he changed: The "press 3, eat some chips" remark." Yet he is ok with press 4 to win? Apparently that group of players wasn't loud enough in terms of messaging him, which sets the bad example of "Bug Scott = Get Results" You know, by that point you'd think someone would just give the Extra Credit's channel URL to DE and be done with it. I swear, every other day someone post a link to one of their video. I don't mean to say that the video isn't useful or that DE can't profit of it, but you know, that's making a lot of assumption about what DE does or doesn't know. Of course I'm making assumptions: We only know what they tell us! That's part of the point :) I look at Extra Credit as "Gaming design for a 12 year old" Simple ideas that can be understood by almost everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazools Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Is it so hard to invite a community representative to the Dev-streams? Just imagine how much could be accomplished. I highly doubt it will ever happen. I don't think the DEVs like that kind of surprise up in their turf, plus they had the chance for weeks now to really answer some big questions in some of the best threads ever started in the forums and there was no actual real and serious replys to those same questions, so i doubt that will ever happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolidSp33d Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I guess I agree and disagree with the premise here. I don't necessarily want DE to release something to the community at large in its prototype phase. That's just going to fuel the cries that DE doesn't test anything. This is exactly what needs to stop though. DE just needs to say, "This is supposed to be beta, let's treat it like one." They need to announce and make it clear this is something rough. What are they going to whine about when they are told that this is a prototype and they want use to tear it apart while iterating. The video in the OP says it all. I do think it should be run by the DC first, but it needs to find it's way in game, in a fairly rough state as well for the public. Unless they can get a really nice test environment running specifically for the DC. But that just misses the point of this game being in beta. DC is the vanguard of the ginnea pigs. We are the meat of the armor. Let them hammer on it first, but when it comes to us it shouldn't be presented like a polished feature either. It still needs to be rough enough for us to hammer at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidushime Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Minecraft didn't. Clearly it's possible. Furthermore, that is completely wrong. Every well run software project has to generate requirements by talking to what will be users of that product. Just because they didn't run it by everyone ever, didn't mean it didn't happen. They absolutely have acceptance tests, user profiles, things like that that help them understand where one design they came up with failed and one succeeded. Finally, in the development of software, you're project will fail if you don't talk to your stakeholders. This is the biggest mistake you can make in software development because you run the risk of developing something your customers don't want. And it's easy to mitigate that risk just by talking to them and asking them. I agree with that quoted post, it's hard to find a happy medium. Speed needs to be tempered with testing; I can name some recent games that went to fast and too slow, it's hard to reach the sweet spot because of the demand for MORE! More maps, more fixes, more variety, more guns, more things to do! Fulfilling the needs of people that give you money is hard because something drive people away or attract them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinperor Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Of course I'm making assumptions: We only know what they tell us! That's part of the point :) I look at Extra Credit as "Gaming design for a 12 year old" Simple ideas that can be understood by almost everyone. We're both smart men Archi, we can tell DE is far enough in their developing 'thing' that they don't need instructions made for 12 YO. That said, I commend the effort of trying to help DE (I myself take a lot of time to help the level design team when I can), but I think the only real value of these videos is to make the community appreciate that developing isn't as easy as it sounds or that some of the thing DE does is for the greater good. Or not, but that's another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkrine Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Loved the video and the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatsniper Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I highly doubt it will ever happen. I don't think the DEVs like that kind of surprise up in their turf, plus they had the chance for weeks now to really answer some big questions in some of the best threads ever started in the forums and there was no actual real and serious replys to those same questions, so i doubt that will ever happen. Maybe it will never happen, maybe it will happen next week. It's a radical concept, which is what the OP is talking about. I don't see how it could be a surprise when it would be announced days before the stream itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)wintersandman Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 This is a good post and as someone new to Warframe, I believe our forum community is bi-polar. One second we have people raging about a change and other are happy about it. There are very few posts with constructive criticism and when they happen. They turn into the rage post. It's like this game has become people's lives. But in reality in is every person at DE's life that is part of this game. They live and breathe this dailyDo they screw up... yes...Do they do good... yes...Do they pay attention... yes...Are they responsive to their community... yes... Do they have room for improvement... yes...But all of these things they are working on. You can tell by the way they respond to 'constructive' criticism. But they will stop listening to polarizing comments that are demoralizing and unappreciative. Archistopheles, I think this is a discussion that is worthwhile for the level headed forum community but the bi-polar majority may disagree. Why I call the bi-polar part the majority is because they are the most vocal on the forums. PC and PS4 alike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolidSp33d Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 We're both smart men Archi, we can tell DE is far enough in their developing 'thing' that they don't need instructions made for 12 YO. That said, I commend the effort of trying to help DE (I myself take a lot of time to help the level design team when I can), but I think the only real value of these videos is to make the community appreciate that developing isn't as easy as it sounds or that some of the thing DE does is for the greater good. Or not, but that's another matter. That..doesn't sound at all like those videos. Like in the slightest. It makes it apparent that design is tough, but it's clearly designed to talk to designers and tell them the basic things they are forgetting to get their act together. Pretty much all of the things they talk about are things a LOT of developers are just looking sight of or really never grasped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archistopheles Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) We're both smart men Archi, we can tell DE is far enough in their developing 'thing' that they don't need instructions made for 12 YO. That said, I commend the effort of trying to help DE (I myself take a lot of time to help the level design team when I can), but I think the only real value of these videos is to make the community appreciate that developing isn't as easy as it sounds or that some of the thing DE does is for the greater good. Or not, but that's another matter. (I'll let you in on a little secret. The thread is primarily targeted to help the community. DE just needs to help us help ourselves a little more instead of restricting thoughts, ideas, and even certain behaviors) Archistopheles, I think this is a discussion that is worthwhile for the level headed forum community but the bi-polar majority may disagree. Sometimes you gotta stir the pot to get to the meat at the bottom :) Edited February 14, 2014 by Archistopheles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishki88 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Video made me think about how many debute games sucked but bounced back with a SUPERIOR second.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakl635 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Honestly, I hope that Digital Extremes will offer more rough ideas to the design council, and have them offer feedback on things that may not come in at all. But, back to the topic I agree with the rest about 90%, thanks for the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinperor Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 That..doesn't sound at all like those videos. Like in the slightest. It makes it apparent that design is tough, but it's clearly designed to talk to designers and tell them the basic things they are forgetting to get their act together. Pretty much all of the things they talk about are things a LOT of developers are just looking sight of or really never grasped. New designers. DE is 20 year old now, older than some players. I reckon they are familiar with some of the illustrated concepts, I remember quite distinctly Steve mentioning in a Livestream that they did a lot of researches into the F2P model (so supposedly, there is a method to what they're doing), so I'm assuming they're aren't clueless. At least, not completely. (I'll let you in on a little secret. The thread is primarily targeted to help the community. DE just needs to help us help ourselves a little more instead of restricting thoughts, ideas, and even certain behaviors) (Oh you.) (I figured that was one of the intended goal.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morec0 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 The servers just crashed, so I think they've succeeded here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alspect Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Sorry for my english its not my main language. I dont know, in terms of content generation DE have a really good phase, i dont see that meany games out there that make livestreams every 2 weeks to told the community what they are doing plus they even respond to comunity questions written before the stream and on the live chat on twich. Its true that the game haves some kind of false sense of beta, but it is one, they are actually listening and they are actually making stuff happened with the player interactions to create a more polish game. As a small example its this all grineer thing that they are moving, making them conquer almost every corner, after that big grineer event and even after that corpus strike back with something new. I have played for a good chunk of time the game, i have played tons of games to, and im not mad about them, they are creating a finished game in the same moment that im writing this down. Its obvious that they dont answer every single question of the people on the community or make thread to talk openly to the people that play, but its ok, I dont really see any game that do that, and in the games that they have full customer support and such, well.... its a paid game man. Maybe its just because of my personality but i don't mind time walls i dont mind farming stuff up, they add new stuff and im happy to try it out, im not that much of a forum guy but man, to much complains about the DE method of making the game up, they actualy communicate with all of you every 2 freaking weeks, they do release content very often (and yes, weapons are content, tiles are content, events are content) almost 1 year have past since i start playing this game and man i need to tell you, this game have changed in the time past. They create content, they communicate with the people, they just need to create some kind of workshop to let the council and some other try stuff mid term release and not fully polish, that my opinion. TL;DR DE add content and update the game pretty frequent. The game have evolve actually a huge chunk in since it was released open beta They need to add a "workshop" "dedicate server" to try stuff mid term instead of fully polish, giving free access to concil and some free players that want to test stuff up. Sorry again for the english its not my main language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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