De Fails Hard~

[FlyDungas]

It's Penny Arcade...

 

I thought they parted ways over some inappropriate comic

The dude talking though

[Archistopheles]

I thought they parted ways over some inappropriate comic

The dude talking though

 

He's just the narrator. The guy who actually writes the shows is a video game consultant. He's been involved in games his whole life and does educational seminars in his free time, and extra credit in his extra free time.

[JerryMouse13]

If I'm honest, I think that DE might have opened the game to the general public to early for their own good.

 

The fact of the matter is that the game is coming up on the anniversary of it's open beta release, and it's still an unfinished product.

 

Sure I can look back and say that the game's come a long way, but then I can look ahead and see that the game still has even further to go before it's ready to ship as 'complete'.

 

 

Much of the development process usually takes place behind closed doors, out of sight and out of mind of the average player. DE has placed themselves in the position of having to develop their game, but having to do so around a fully fledged player base, who has a rather strong attachment to the item's they feel they've earned.

 

They've basically tossed their player base into the mass of bugfixing, brainstorming, and reworking, that most games go through, but hardly anyone ever sees, and it's a very new territory for everyone.

 

 

Another thing, someone said earlier that Design Council needs a test server, and I actually agree with that. Having a way to test small scale patches before disseminating them to the general public would probably be very useful, as well as giving DC more relevant input than voting for the order of release.

[Archistopheles]

Another thing, someone said earlier that Design Council needs a test server, and I actually agree with that. Having a way to test small scale patches before disseminating them to the general public would probably be very useful, as well as giving DC more relevant input than voting for the order of release.

 

Even if it was just one mission, for one particular thing, one time a day. Imagine the feedback you could get by testing, say, weapons this way. (not to mention wetting people's apetite for upcomming stuff)

Edited February 15, 2014 by Archistopheles

[rhoenix]

Even if it was just one mission, for one particular thing, one time a day. Imagine the feedback you could get by testing, say, weapons this way. (not to mention wetting people's apetite for upcomming stuff)

Indeed - most of the issues would be caught early, and introduction of things would be smoother.

[rhoenix]

Council members please know where you stand at the moment. Digital Extremes can not trust you, PS4 plays are banging and yelling at the gate asking to be let in though there are some PC players (vetrans) who will try to help you but as vetrans diminish there are PC players who will go against you.

...What exactly do you think is being asked here? To the best of my knowledge, Arch was asking for more communication with Devs, and volunteering to help test things on a test server if needs be to give early feedback before something is released.

Some of us want to help DE make this game better, and this seemed to be one way - to offer to test things before release.

Asking for more content or access to updates before handing it to all the testers is going to anger the community. I'm sorry for what I'm about to say but I mean well, Digital Extremes can not always protect you. If you keep being greedy you will only anger the community more then when it becomes to much of a risk for DE the cause will be ejected meaning the council will be ejected. Try to know where you are walking if you fall there will be some to help you but those who would see you fall far out weighs those who would not. Be careful, Digital Extremes has given what was promised in the package and they are trying to protect your exclusiveness but going around being greedy saying more was promised is not helping.

So far, I'm seeing you saying "YOU GUYS SHOULDN'T BE DEMANDING FREE STUFF," but that's not what this thread is about.

Half that paragraph appeared to hint at some grand uprising, which I'm really not understanding here. Half the threads after something is released complain about something or other, and the offer here to help give early feedback to the developers so that introduction of stuff added to the game is smoother for everyone. I'm not seeing how this is "demanding free stuff to make everyone jealous," since even if DE agrees and lets some of us do so, it'll be on a test server, and not on the live warframe game - and we'll likely be writing reports for feedback.

I saw the package I know what was promised, I chose not to buy it because I was satasfied with the game already. So I will try to be a balance between the council and the community but posts such as "PS4 players shouldn't have the council package" because of my reasons, they should under these terms or I know where they are coming from but... it is not helping. Know your surroundings and be careful, one wrong step could destroy the council for every one.

I don't consider this derailing as there is a lot of council members asking for more. If this is derailing I'm sorry but if I made this on my own thread I could start a rift in the community. Know your surroundings.

Ok, seriously. Quit being vague and just say plainly what you're talking about, please. My intention here (I can't speak for the others) is to volunteer to test stuff and offer ideas, not try to go "lol I tried it first". I want to help this game get better, make each update smoother for everyone, and help contribute toward this game going from good to great. I'm willing to donate my own time for testing and writing reports to do so.

My intention is not to shut out or ignore the rest of the community in the least - my intention is to help the entire community feel more listened to by DE, not just the Council. Do you see the distinction?

[NetSlayer]

I only needed to see 5 seconds of the video past the intro to see what's going on here.

Sometimes, there is such a thing as a bad idea.

All good ideas that drive this away from being so mainstream and so easy. Ideas that come in force and devs compromise their vision for it.

God I hate all those ideas. All of them. It's the whole camel and commitee thing going on.

It infuriated me in Planetside 2 forums, here I'm 9 times more calm because at least we have devstreams that acknowledge a few 'real' issues every now and again.

Instead of the game should adjust to players, I believe players should adjust to the game. If it's difficult, train yourself to be better. Don't scream "it's too hard therefore DE are this, that and the other".

 

[OnnaJReverT]

i actually didnt notice for 3 days that this game a beta, it seems like a very good product which is constantly patched (at least for a newb)

but we are here for a beta after all, so THROW THOSE FAILS AT US! we shall help you remedy them, DE

[Noble_Cactus]

A test server would be excellent. I'm all for it.

 

I only needed to see 5 seconds of the video past the intro to see what's going on here.

Sometimes, there is such a thing as a bad idea.

All good ideas that drive this away from being so mainstream and so easy. Ideas that come in force and devs compromise their vision for it.

God I hate all those ideas. All of them. It's the whole camel and commitee thing going on.

It infuriated me in Planetside 2 forums, here I'm 9 times more calm because at least we have devstreams that acknowledge a few 'real' issues every now and again.

Instead of the game should adjust to players, I believe players should adjust to the game. If it's difficult, train yourself to be better. Don't scream "it's too hard therefore DE are this, that and the other".

 

 

Yes, it's true that being a dev that talks to his/her community can be frustrating, especially when those posts can sound like they're telling you how your game should be made. I've talked to a few people who've worked on independent projects and they've said the same thing, and speaking of Skullgirls I know Mike Z has snapped a few times (he's at the same time stubborn and very much open to new ideas, and sometimes that clashes). But I think a test server with longtime, dedicated players could be the right solution in facilitating feedback.

 

 

 

Thanks, Cactus, now this thread is going to disappear without a trace :p

 

EDIT: Changed emoticon from >:( to :p to convey my half-joking attitude. Your post is cool.

 

 

S'all good. I'm glad the devs are looking at this thread and taking it seriously, and that's what matters the most.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Skepsis]

Great topics, and great points, but what it boils down to, is the fact that the 'gaming' community of the interwebs feels that they are owed in every game they play.

 

Either way there will be people who like the changes, and those that think it will make the game collapse into oblivion [not to be confused with Elder Scrolls]

 

While I would say that most of the changes made have stepped DE into a better position, I don't feel they grasp their full 'power'. Using the community to test out things, presenting ideas and topics to the community for feedback would be amazing, and would feel people have more of a say in the direction of the game.

 

One example of this would be the never-ending war on Banshee's Feet.

[fatpig84]

let me test test test everything.

[adoomgod]

I agree. I'd like to see some bigger risks taken.

[Markus13]

I like some parts of the first post, but at a whole i dont think that "Fail Faster" idea is good. I like the idea of testing server and rewards for testers to main account (never seen such stuff in other MMOs). If u wanna this FailFaster strategy on the test server - ok, but why it ever should be used in real game?

Btw I dont like how game evolution goes now, but this FailFaster will be much much worse in my opinion.

 

There a pretty big bunch of things I dont like in game at this moment, but most important of them it's just a question of time for devs (yep I speak about UI improvement, new bosses and territory expanding).

THE ONE THING I DONT LIKE MUCH MORE - is DE's update-strategy! Why they are adding new weapons and frames so often??? I'm OK with content expanding ofc, but I mean why they do this IF THERE OTHERES MORE IMORTANT things to improve??? 

UI improvements? BUG FIXES? new maps / enemy types / bosses? PvP changes / additions? Even LORE will be more valuable for me.

 

But anyway I understand that other player's opinion could be completely opposite to mine =))

And I understand that creators of the game just must work in the way they planned by their own.

I mean ofc - any developer must try follow for public desires, but noone can satisfy everyone - in any community there are tons of opposite thinking...

Edited February 16, 2014 by Markus13

[SolidSp33d]

 

but at a whole i dont think that "Fail Faster" idea is good.

 

Just making a note that "fail faster" isn't a "good or bad" plan or anything. The point of that concept is that you ARE going to fail. It's pretty much fact that ideas aren't going to go through on the first try or many tries after. It's the pretty solid advice that you need to be able to spot these errors sooner before you spend to much time on on something you need to scrap anyway. The debates come from thinking about the approaches to doing this.

[DellSalami]

*Notices thread title in Recent Topics list*

 

"Oh, whoopdie-do, another rant thread.  Don't care."

 

*Notices thread was created by 10k Posts Man*

 

"Alright, what the hell, why not."

 

Wasn't disappointed.

 

Woah woah woah kat, you're back?

[rhoenix]

Just making a note that "fail faster" isn't a "good or bad" plan or anything. The point of that concept is that you ARE going to fail. It's pretty much fact that ideas aren't going to go through on the first try or many tries after. It's the pretty solid advice that you need to be able to spot these errors sooner before you spend to much time on on something you need to scrap anyway. The debates come from thinking about the approaches to doing this.

Exactly.

The bottom line is that quite a few of us now in the Council upgraded our accounts back in the day to help DE make this game even better. I imagine several of us still do, and the rest of the Warframe playerbase at large does as well.

All sorts of things have testers who tinker with it and give feedback before it's released to the general public. Arch, myself, and quite a few others are quite willing to do just that, to help ensure that each thing added to the game is added smoothly, with appropriate communication and explanation.

[Un1337ninj4]

There are few as well respected a member as Archistopheles, she/he's been here (as you can tell), a long &#! time. 

 

But today, he/she becomes more than that, all that he/she has learned in his/her trek across the null-and-void that is the forums. (S)He has successfully united players once again, making a post competing in upvotes to a level some Hotfixes would be jelly of, bringing hand in hand the Devs and their loyal players. Tenno, give this warrior a cookie. 

Edited February 16, 2014 by un1337ninj4

[Katakuna]

Woah woah woah kat, you're back?

 

In General Discussion more often than not and the game from time to time, yeah.

 

Not back in the Fan Zone scene, though.

[Amazerath]

You are Digital Extremes. You need to start acting like it again.

 

Archistopheles, what I'm about to write might seem like an attack against you. I'd like to assure you that it is not the case. I believe I understand your point and I respect it, but I also don't agree with it entirely. I like the kind of input you are aiming for but there is something that keeps me from applauding it. This video asks the developers to put themselves into the players shoes. But it also says the developer should use failure as a stepping stone to success. I would ask anyone reading this: how many of us, players, have put ourselves into the developer's shoes?

 

Have we ever been in the position DE is in? Have we ever developed a game, and watched as the community around that game grew bigger and bigger, to the point of becoming something almost scary to behold? Have we felt the responsibility to deliver fun and enjoyment to that community? To keep them entertained and interested? Have we ever been scared by how easily the community can chew up months of hard work in just a few minutes, and then demand even more?

 

If your answer to any or to all of these questions is "yes", then you have my respect. Because I have never been in that exact situation and I can only wonder about how scary it might be. Not every person is built to withstand harsh criticism on something they pour their hearts into. I am certainly not one of these people, and therefore I respect those who are.

 

However, if your answer to these questions is "no", then I would urge you to think about what failure really means in a situation like this. And the reason why I would do that is because it seems very easy to do things in a certain way when your are not feeling any pressure and when you are not feeling any responsibility. The whole idea about "failing faster" sounds very right. But that's because it is only a general idea that is not being applied to any specific situation. It is highly motivational, but not as practical as it is attractive.

 

What causes this difference is the fact that no failure is ignored by a community as passionate and diverse as ours. No failure is forgiven. No failure is accepted. As a community, we are not reasonable and we are not patient. The posts and threads in this forum are evidence of that. And I would also assume that the developers themselves are constantly reminded of that via PMs (by some not very polite ones). So I would ask how does one "fail faster", when this failure can very well cause the community to give up on you? And without a community, who will play your game? Who will pay for your expenses? Who will motivate you?

 

It is true that not all the feedback is harmful. But how much bad feedback can one really ignore in order to keep trying and to keep failing? How well do we stand by and watch while others are mocking our work? We are not machines. We fail and we feel bad about failing. And I don't believe anyone can ignore that as completely or as easily as the video would have you believe.

[Aercascade]

Slap that raw sauce all over my face and I will test it for you.

I do agree, I still love DE. We asked for Zip-lining and Wall Running and that's exactly what we got! :D

[Markus13]

Just making a note that "fail faster" isn't a "good or bad" plan or anything. The point of that concept is that you ARE going to fail. It's pretty much fact that ideas aren't going to go through on the first try or many tries after. It's the pretty solid advice that you need to be able to spot these errors sooner before you spend to much time on on something you need to scrap anyway. The debates come from thinking about the approaches to doing this.

 

Maybe i understood something wrong, but as I've got it - this concept means fast development with big amount of raw addings to the game. As I am a developer bymyself (was engaged in webdev/softdev at different times) I can't say that such conception is justified.

I understand that we're talking bout entertainment, about a computer game, but still... this concept may be used ONLY in context of testing server. IMO

[Noogums]

This.. This is the mindset I've been hoping for. Don't rage at DE for changing stuff, let them experiment.

[Leinender]

 Step 0  Do something,

 Step 0,5 Stop talking, work more

 Step 0,75 Add to game simple yet easy deep storyline

 Step 1  Release more Primes (starting with ASH :)

 Step 2  Release new maps and new game modes (more stealth type)

 Step 3  Profit

 

If it fails its ok.

[f-e-a-r-s]

TBH, I've been pretty neutral to the changes and going all "mmmkay, it's a change and this is a beta so I'm okay with it. Prolly even was a statement in the license agreement that I didn't read but agree too"

 

When Damage 2.0 came out, I was all "ooh, cool, now I can experiment with stuff, and look at all these debuffs, I've gotta make new strategies" whilst some of the community was going "ohmahgawds D: D: D: my acrid/soma/flux rifle is no longer the god-sex-stick of pure death and destruction anymore *cries*"

 

C'mon, when we clicked "I agree" on that license agreement, we probably agreed to be guinea pigs and accept the fact that at any moment, the game and any aspect of it can and WILL change. So when a change arrives, give it some time, experiment with it and see what happens and accept the fact that you cannot deal a bazillion armor ignore DoT (There are other weapons out there for a reason, you know.) with your Acrid or farm hundreds of thousands of affinity from an infested Xini anymore, then give feedback. 

 

Then again, I'm thinking that a large portion of the community does not understand the difficulties of developing a game (and perhaps the fact that the devs are humans and also have a normal life outside of their job? )... A lot of people like games, but do all of those same people like to develop games?  Id est, A lot of people love hot dogs, but would all of those people like to work in a sausage factory?

 

TL:DR - Instead of whining about the nerfs/changes the moment they arrive, give it time, accept that you cannot play God anymore with insanely OP weapons, experiment with the changes, give reasonable feedback (the game is made for everyone, not just, for example,  for individuals who like to get turned on by the rain of numbers from their quadra-forma'd Acrid or something)

[Cyrionn]

Clever topic there gathering all the rage and the good thoughts, just so the community could remember that with failing hard DE can learn for more awesomeness to come. I feel the vets pain, I also have to admit that I'm far from having faith in some ways DE are experimenting right now.

But I guess it's something that can be part of creating a video game, at least if they don't try everything that comes in their mind now that we are in beta, they'll never do it.