Omg Soma Is Op! What The Hell O.o

[SquirmyBurrito]

Except...

 

 

 

 

And then you have weapons like the Galatine, which is a mere Mastery Rank 3 weapon, yet is far and above the best non-prime weapon in the game, and is on par with the Dakra and Orthos Prime.

 

It doesn't really matter if DE wants a tiered system.  Players should speak out against it because tiered systems are bad.  They reduce player choice for no benefit to gamers.  The only thing it does is forces players to abandon weapons they've potentially invested in with forma and potatoes to get a stronger weapon.

 

Karak and Tetra aren't on the Soma's tier. How many times do I have to say that. Tier'd weapon systems do not just consist of two tiers (they shouldn't). Mastery rank requirements is not how you figure out what is on which tier. The Galatine is the god tier melee weapon right now. It doesn't matter if other melee weapons are primes or not. Being a prime weapon does not instantly make you top tier, just look at the Skana prime.

Yeah it does since it is their game. I like tier'd weapon systems. They give me a sense of progression and give me a goal to work towards. That's why they work so well in most games that use them (even skyrim had a tier'd weapon system). They don't reduce your choice, they just force you to continue to choose as you rank up since they prevent you (normally) from just picking up the starter weapon and beating the game with it.

Forma is easy to get, and catalysts are becoming increasingly common. If you're one of those people who potato's all of your weapons you may want to start trading so you can fund your bad habit. And don't get me started on reactors, those things drop too frequently considering the number of frames currently in this game.

 

Edit: I do agree that the current tier'd system is chaotic though. DE needs to do a tweak-sweep and then establish a clear tier'd system. Rather than this implied one.

Edited March 8, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[NikolaiLev]

They don't reduce your choice, they just force you to continue to choose 

I'm sorry, but this is a contradiction.  If you are being forced to make a decision, then there is no actual decision.  It doesn't matter if you'd like the aesthetics or gameplay of the Karak, you can't use it if you want to play endgame content because the Soma is just better.  That means the Karak is no longer a choice once you reach maximum mastery.  Hence, reduced choice.

 

The mod system can serve as a form of progression; that's all it does because it offers no choice at the moment (you can never afford to build anything but damage).  Weapons shouldn't be the same way.  If you want to go through the entire game with nothing but an Mk1-Braton I strongly feel you should be able to.  But the amount of players who wouldn't want to go try new things would be very small indeed.

[Davoodoo]

Karak and Tetra aren't on the Soma's tier. How many times do I have to say that. Tier'd weapon systems do not just consist of two tiers (they shouldn't). Mastery rank requirements is not how you figure out what is on which tier. The Galatine is the god tier melee weapon right now. It doesn't matter if other melee weapons are primes or not. Being a prime weapon does not instantly make you top tier, just look at the Skana prime.

Yeah it does since it is their game. I like tier'd weapon systems. They give me a sense of progression and give me a goal to work towards. That's why they work so well in most games that use them (even skyrim had a tier'd weapon system). They don't reduce your choice, they just force you to continue to choose as you rank up since they prevent you (normally) from just picking up the starter weapon and beating the game with it.

Forma is easy to get, and catalysts are becoming increasingly common. If you're one of those people who potato's all of your weapons you may want to start trading so you can fund your bad habit. And don't get me started on reactors, those things drop too frequently considering the number of frames currently in this game.

Edit: I do agree that the current tier'd system is chaotic though. DE needs to do a tweak-sweep and then establish a clear tier'd system. Rather than this implied one.

You given skyrim as example but you forget 3 things

1)in skyrim you get increased diffilculty as you progress while in warframe you dont.

2)you can upgrade any weapon to oneshot every enemy.

3)that actually is tiered system becuase you have iron->steel->dwarven-> and so on, longsword will still be longsword, greatsword will still be greatsword, while in warframe boltor prime is supossed to be upgrade to soma and soma is supposed to be upgrade to braton, its like having greatsword as upgrade to sword and sword as upgrade to dagger. Theres no tiers and thats the biggest problem.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Khunvyel]

I'm wondering, would this discussion not be better suited in it's own respective topic as of how the tiered system is broken, how it should look like and which weapons should fall under what category in such a system? Perhaps that would give it a lot more credibility than having these important words laid to waste in just another "Soma OP thread"

[Zarlockk]

In my opinion it falls off too fast, not my favorite weapon, good but not top 5

[SquirmyBurrito]

I'm sorry, but this is a contradiction.  If you are being forced to make a decision, then there is no actual decision.  It doesn't matter if you'd like the aesthetics or gameplay of the Karak, you can't use it if you want to play endgame content because the Soma is just better.  That means the Karak is no longer a choice once you reach maximum mastery.  Hence, reduced choice.

 

The mod system can serve as a form of progression; that's all it does because it offers no choice at the moment (you can never afford to build anything but damage).  Weapons shouldn't be the same way.  If you want to go through the entire game with nothing but an Mk1-Braton I strongly feel you should be able to.  But the amount of players who wouldn't want to go try new things would be very small indeed.

 

They force you to continue to choose. I did not say they force you to choose one particular weapon. Technically you CAN continue to use the MK1 in higher level missions. It is just ill-advice. Also, by continuously using different weapons you unlock previously mastery locked weapons. So the amount of choices expand.

That bit about the mod system is only correct if you use extremely high level play as the basis for your test. I don't always use pure damage builds and I can do any of the content found on the tin(start chart level information).

 

You given skyrim as example but you forget 3 things

1)in skyrim you get increased diffilculty as you progress while in warframe you dont.

2)you can upgrade any weapon to oneshot every enemy.

3)that actually is tiered system becuase you have iron->steel->dwarven-> and so on, longsword will still be longsword, greatsword will still be greatsword, while in warframe boltor prime is supossed to be upgrade to soma and soma is supposed to be upgrade to braton, its like having greatsword as upgrade to sword and sword as upgrade to dagger. Theres no tiers and thats the biggest problem.

 

1. Difficulty scales in much the same way that it does in Warframe. Enemy health increases as does their damage.

2. I doubt it, but I'd have to re-install skyrim to test this out. Unless you're talking about abusing exploits (potion loops).

3. That's what I was saying "even skyrim had a tier'd weapon system". Why are you repeating what I said (but with more detail). The Braton is a automatic rifle, so is the Soma, so is the Boltor. A better example would be MK1-Braton->Braton->Braton Prime->Karak(?)->etc. Paris->Paris Prime. Strun->Strun Wraith. Yes those are extreme jumps, but that's primarily because I'm too lazy to pull up a weapon list and go by that.

 

The biggest problem I see is that the tiers aren't clearly established when compared to other weapon types.

[Davoodoo]

1. Difficulty scales in much the same way that it does in Warframe. Enemy health increases as does their damage.

2. I doubt it, but I'd have to re-install skyrim to test this out. Unless you're talking about abusing exploits (potion loops).

3. That's what I was saying "even skyrim had a tier'd weapon system". Why are you repeating what I said (but with more detail). The Braton is a automatic rifle, so is the Soma, so is the Boltor. A better example would be MK1-Braton->Braton->Braton Prime->Karak(?)->etc. Paris->Paris Prime. Strun->Strun Wraith. Yes those are extreme jumps, but that's primarily because I'm too lazy to pull up a weapon list and go by that.

 

The biggest problem I see is that the tiers aren't clearly established when compared to other weapon types.

1. Difficulty scaled based on your lvl, at the same time difficulty in warframe doesnt scale at all, if you do lvl20 mission you will get lvl20 enemies no matter which rank are you or what weapon will you bring, endless missions scale based on time spent in them and cant be completed and you cant call that scaling since even rewards doesnt scale above wave 15 and 20 minutes. It isnt meant as leading game mode but rather a challenge.

2. Armor cap can be reached by any armor except iron, leather, fur and clothing even without potion loop. As for weapons yes it requires potion loop exploit, but same way we are exploiting blessing and previously snow globe to reach waves which we shouldnt be able to clear

3. Except that braton is assault rifle while soma is lmg, these are 2 completely different class of weapons, boltor at the same time is projectile weapon and is again different class of weapon.

You have given example of assault rifle line which ends at karak which is half of soma dps and theres no "etc" after karak, it simply ends there and thats the biggest problem. Also you cant consider exclusive gear as part of tiers.

[SquirmyBurrito]

1. Difficulty scaled based on your lvl, at the same time difficulty in warframe doesnt scale at all, if you do lvl20 mission you will get lvl20 enemies no matter which rank are you or what weapon will you bring, endless missions scale based on time spent in them and cant be completed and you cant call that scaling since even rewards doesnt scale above wave 15 and 20 minutes. It isnt meant as leading game mode but rather a challenge.

2. Armor cap can be reached by any armor except iron, leather, fur and clothing even without potion loop. As for weapons yes it requires potion loop exploit, but same way we are exploiting blessing and previously snow globe to reach waves which we shouldnt be able to clear

3. Except that braton is assault rifle while soma is lmg, these are 2 completely different class of weapons, boltor at the same time is projectile weapon and is again different class of weapon.

You have given example of assault rifle line which ends at karak which is half of soma dps and theres no "etc" after karak, it simply ends there and thats the biggest problem. Also you cant consider exclusive gear as part of tiers.

 

1. I could have sworn bosses scaled to your level. Rewards have nothing to do with difficulty itself, they just give the player a reason to play that difficulty.

2. IIRC the potion loop exploit was patched a long time ago. Blessing and Snow Globe didn't allow you to oneshot enemies that you normally wouldn't be capable of oneshotting. A better example would have been Sonar.

3. The Soma is often called an LMG by LMG enthusiasts, that doesn't mean it is. It is basically an AR with a large magazine. Warframe doesn't have a LMG weapon class, it has Shotguns, Sniper Rifles(bows), Rifles, Pistols(secondaries), Melee weapons, and the Thrown Melee Weapons. You can try and split those categories up all you want but it doesn't matter. The game does not split them up like this. Somewhere after the Karak is the Soma, and after that is the Boltor prime. I said 'etc etc' as a way of finishing up without having to potentially stick my foot in my mouth by inaccurately listing weapons. That's why I put the '(?)' after Karak. Example-Karak->Soma->Boltor Prime. I'm too lazy to check so their might be weapons that fall between those ones that I just completely left out.

Yes, I can. They are part of the game. Them being exclusive doesn't matter. There are other weapons that come after those that I listed but I was (again) too lazy to look at their DPS to and put them in proper order.

Edited March 10, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Khunvyel]

1) At least Captian Vor scales, to a certain level. I recently bashed him solo with all level 30 gear and got a level 22 Vor. The grunts he summons at the transitions are of the same level he is. Jackal on the other hand doesn't scale, among other bosses. So this is a general issue that needs to be looked at, when it comes to group scaling.

 

 

3. The Soma is often called an LMG by LMG enthusiasts, that doesn't mean it is. It is basically a AR with a large magazine. Warfrmae doesn't have a LMG weapon class, it has Shotguns, Sniper Rifles(bows), Rifles, Pistols(secondaries), Melee weapons, and the Thrown Melee Weapons.

Thank you dearly for this. I fail to see how some people can't get that into their head.

And in the end, it is just another indicator of a tiered weapon system and I don't have a single problem with that. The only problem I am having is that the tiers are simply not well enough populated and distributed among the ranks.
By chance, does anyone know which mastery level the Boltor Prime requires? For the record, I'm totally okay and fine to have Prime and Dojo research gear being the top of the line. Both require more time / resources spent than just picking a blueprint off the market and throw it into the foundry and craft something with resources which are fully available through solar map progress.

 

 

 

Also you cant consider exclusive gear as part of tiers.

Why not? Just because it is exclusive does not automatically mean it is and should always be "best". Furthermore, so called "exclusive gear" will be made available in time. Brakk and Detron and the first examples to this. The only thing I would like to see is having all exclusive versions of the corresponding weapon either require the same mastery tier, or one above, to properly fit within the tiered system.

 

But we must not forget, at the end of the day it is still beta. There is a chance that come launch, everything will be wiped and the only thing you get refunded is all the Platinum you spent, and on top of this you'll be given a 14day booster that activates upon your next login, to compensate for the loss. Perhaps a nice badge for being beta member, perhaps nicer badges depending on which time you created your account in terms of Update numbers.

I don't say it is likely to happen. I only say there is a chance that this will happen.

[Khunvyel]

Yes, if the primes were consistent, it would be a higher chance to have this figured out, but there are too many weapons having varying Mastery requirements to remain as certain.

[LazyKnight]

Yes, if the primes were consistent, it would be a higher chance to have this figured out, but there are too many weapons having varying Mastery requirements to remain as certain.

All primes should be rank at least rank 6, with Boltor prime and Burston prime being 8-10. One area DE has neglected for too long is establishing a clear hierarchy in the mastery system with better weapons requiring more rank.

 

Sorry for deleting my other post i didn't think it provided anything useful to tell you to read the wiki.

Edited March 10, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Khunvyel]

Awwwwww, you shouldn't have, it was totally fine! I checked the Wiki before I wrote my second to last answer anyway to my statement accurate :D

This actually serves as a healthy reminder that the transparency of mastery ranks is MISSING in the game. There is no way to tell when any given weapon was unlocked, other than being lower than it's required tier. There is also no way to tell the mastery rating about Prime weapons other than crafting them on a previous rank and then look bushed when you're unable to equip it!

 

So this absolutely needs to be emphasized; it should be clearly visible to see which weapon requires which mastery rank. On it's icon and in the stats. This way you could see the Prime weapons requirements in the Codex.

[Marshall]

Nerf INB4

 

what have you done?! D:

[NikolaiLev]

In my opinion it falls off too fast, not my favorite weapon, good but not top 5

 

Uh?  It's the second best primary for DPS (which is only thing that matters), only second to the Latron Prime.  It's definitely in the top 5.

 

They force you to continue to choose. I did not say they force you to choose one particular weapon. Technically you CAN continue to use the MK1 in higher level missions. It is just ill-advice. Also, by continuously using different weapons you unlock previously mastery locked weapons. So the amount of choices expand.

That bit about the mod system is only correct if you use extremely high level play as the basis for your test. I don't always use pure damage builds and I can do any of the content found on the tin(start chart level information).

 

 

1. Difficulty scales in much the same way that it does in Warframe. Enemy health increases as does their damage.

2. I doubt it, but I'd have to re-install skyrim to test this out. Unless you're talking about abusing exploits (potion loops).

3. That's what I was saying "even skyrim had a tier'd weapon system". Why are you repeating what I said (but with more detail). The Braton is a automatic rifle, so is the Soma, so is the Boltor. A better example would be MK1-Braton->Braton->Braton Prime->Karak(?)->etc. Paris->Paris Prime. Strun->Strun Wraith. Yes those are extreme jumps, but that's primarily because I'm too lazy to pull up a weapon list and go by that.

 

The biggest problem I see is that the tiers aren't clearly established when compared to other weapon types.

 

Again, being forced to choose means there is less choice.  And the progression up mastery is one thing.  At the end of the progression, there's a pathetically small amount of weapons to choose from.  For primaries, it's latron prime, soma, and synapse.  Anything else is just too low to consider.  That's not choice.

 

I don't want a tier system because the end tier will have so few weapons that the previous tiers are just pointless.  You're trying out new weapons for mastery, not because they're interesting, and you're going to settle on a Soma at the end anyway.  That's not choice.  That's not fun.

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

 

At the end of the progression, there's a pathetically small amount of weapons to choose from.  For primaries, it's latron prime, soma, and synapse.  Anything else is just too low to consider.  That's not choice.

Umm, I don't know about you, but for primaries I have a Vectis, a Drakgoon, a Burston Prime, and a Dread in addition to my Latron Prime which I feel completely comfortable taking into any level of mission for whatever amount of time. There's also the standard Penta/Ogris and the Phage which are also typically fine. That's a sniper, a couple of bows, a burst fire weapon, a markman semi-auto, a gimmick shotgun, a tentacle gun, an electric zapper, a wind up AR, a rocket launcher, and a grenade launcher, which would all do fine at end game for primaries. We also now have the Boltor Prime which while it suffers the same ammo efficiency issues of the Soma is also decent for going on long runs. For more normal runs... pretty much anything will excel at any normal level of content that doesn't involve sitting for an hour in a single mission, and any argument about normal content and weaponry is kinda moot when I can take my Mk1-Braton in and wreck everything with no issue. And you gotta remember that DE doesn't actually balance for these super long survivals and defenses.

 

Also for the Galatine thing you've brought up multiple times... melee in general has been broken for a very long time and I wouldn't use that as an example of anything except how bad and slow DE can be at balancing their game. In any case, almost all melee weapons are mastery 3 or lower, with the exceptions being clan tech and Dakra Prime. Now, if melees were actually worth using in general for anything other than flavor, I would probably bump up Galatine's mastery rank, but honestly, the Galatine is closer to "balanced" against our primary and secondary offerings than most of our other melees in the current state of the game (in that it is one of the very few melees that feels like it is worth using as a serious damage source... sort of). I think DE recognizes that, which is why they haven't bothered to touch it.

[Khunvyel]

The problem with the Galatine was simply that the majority of people catered to big numbers and thus it was hyped up. Yes, R3 weapon, yadda yadda, and yes it can hit more targets than anything else. THAT was the big point. Not the high numbers but the damage distribution. If Galatine was still only 3 targets, other weapons still would be superior to it, which are not R3.

Why? Because it is easier to hold a button down than perform multiple slide attacks.

 

But melee things are on hold anyway due to the new iteration coming up. At that point, the entire situation will be new, has to be taken apart and analyzed.

 

inb4 4x steel charge = new endgame OPness :D

[Zarlockk]

Uh?  It's the second best primary for DPS (which is only thing that matters), only second to the Latron Prime.  It's definitely in the top 5.

 

Well, me and 3 other clanmates did 1 hours T3 void survival. 1 had 3 forma Soma 1 had 5 forma Synapse 1 had 5 forma Penta and i had 1 forma Paris Prime. After enemies started to go over lvl 50 they were using too much ammo to kill a single guy and ran out of ammo, except the 1 with Penta ofc, he jsut had to do like 6-9 blasts to kill heay gunners, while I kept 1 shotting gunners of LVL 100. We extracted because we had to leave otherwise i would keep 1 shotting everyone while my clanmates were kept using brakks.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Zarlockk

[Khunvyel]

Uh?  It's the second best primary for DPS (which is only thing that matters), only second to the Latron Prime.  It's definitely in the top 5.

 

You have successfully brought evidence of how little you understand of things that "matter". Statistics and math are only as good as the person applying and comprehending it.

[Dredj]

You have successfully brought evidence of how little you understand of things that "matter". Statistics and math are only as good as the person applying and comprehending it.

And I suppose you think, Boltor Prime is #1?

[Zarlockk]

And I suppose you think, Boltor Prime is #1?

Boltor prime has lower DPS but they are on same level. In high levels you need ammo efficiency not DPS. No point of Soma or Synapse vs level 50 and higher enemies as you waste too much ammo per enemy. DPS is needed versus single enemy for short missions but not for long runs. Just trust veterans dude and dont argue here. Soma is good but not OP.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Zarlockk

[Khunvyel]

And I suppose you think, Boltor Prime is #1?

 

I suppose no such thing, nor do I personally care for such a thing. DPS is only relevant and close to applicable scenarios where you have one big target with lots of health you can constantly shoot at, without interruption, without missing a shot and without other things that cause you to pause firing. And this is far from your day-in, day-out scenario, except if you farm bosses all the time, and not even THEN, due to different boss mechanics. Not every Boss is as straightforward as Phorid or Tyl Regor.

 

That is the problem I am having with people raking in DPS charts in this game. Because it is usually not even remotely applicable, and there are so many other variables to factor in. This is not like MMOs where you need to plan for 10 minute bossfights.

 

Edit: Zarlokk kinda beat me to it!

Edited March 14, 2014 by Khunvyel

[Dredj]

I agree, the DPS chart stuff really irks me, and that's where I was leading, but you already went there. And yeah, I have noticed both Soma and Boltor Prime are useless at around level 50 Void mods.

[_Murphys_Law_]

dera's accuracy cant be beat, it is a beautiful, finely tuned machine that my frost hast to relearn every time he reloads. the soma bandwagon is ------> that way i will still use my overly complicated highly accurate battle rifle that only corpus apparently know how to reload

[OvAeons]

Soma is meant as a high tier weapon and performs as such, so i do not see the issue. It all depends on what level enemies you use it on. For me i have maybe used it 3 times since i maxed it.

[Rompido]

Yes, the Soma is OP.

 

IMO I got bored of it, fast, too. That being said, I only used it for Mastery. Sold it to make room for other weapons.

I feel really bad for you. why would you get rid of something that's good? hold on to that one. sell the other ones!

 

 

 

Soon you will get tired of 1 shotting everything and join us elite, using crappy weapons forgotten by time and turning them into god weapons.

1,000+ hours and I still love mowing things down. the faster the better.

 

 

I admit it's fun out-killing soma zombies with a standard braton.  =)

my in game name is obviously Rompido, please hit me up in game and show me. I'll bring my Soma.

 

 

The Soma is pretty bad, it's dps is not even high enough to put it in the top 10 highest dps weapons.

lol

 

 

 

DPSFrame does not count any status effects, and never has. The Gas, slash, electric and Viral effects need to be factored. When a weapon maxed out Dread can get ticking bleed Proc doing 2k+ damage, they can't be ignored.

 

GottFaust lets people look at the source code used: If you find a bug report it.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/90706-unofficial-weapon-dps-calculator-current-v054/

I know this was posted 2-27, but currently it does seem to account for status.