[Poll] Should Mods Have Less Influence On Damage Output?

[Sasquatchias]

http://strawpoll.me/1229887

 

Just something I've wanted to ask out of curiosity, see what some of the community thinks.

[Zinthir]

No.

[BrotherIcarus]

No because of mods more weapons are viable in high level missions.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

If nothing else, the multiplicative scaling of crit builds needs to stop being a thing because it makes crit weapons impossible to balance in a reasonable manner.  Whether you nuke crit from orbit (my preference), balance the crit chances of all weapons so that they aren't any better (requires reducing diversity in the game), or just nerfing the crap out of crit mods (also reduces gameplay diversity), something needs to be done about them.

 

No because of mods more weapons are viable in high level missions.

That's because mods are egregiously OP...

Edited February 28, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[BrotherIcarus]

That's because mods are egregiously OP...

How are mods OP?

[Calayne]

No because of mods more weapons are viable in high level missions.

 

The fact that they are relied upon so heavily to be viable makes weapons unpredictable and scale badly.

 

I say yes. 

 

 

How are mods OP?

 

Here's an illustration:

 

Serration = 100% increase, approximate, Heavy Calibre = 100% increase approximate, Multishot = 200% increase approximate.

 

Base damage = 1

 

Total damage =Base Damage + Base damage * (Serration + Heavy Calibre)*Multishot

 

= (1+ 1*(1+1))*2 = 3*2 = 6 times the damage you normally do, excluding elemental mods.

 

If you slap four on, that's about 400% more damage, meaning, you now do about 20 times the damage you used to, before considering weaknesses and punch-through. S#&$ is unbalanced. Nuff' said.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Calayne

[Guest Shibboleet]

They should reduce how well mods scale together, so I voted yes.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

How are mods OP?

They can increase weapon damage per second by more than 10,000% in some cases (and as high as 31,000% in the case of the Penta), trivializing content in their wake.  Even if you stick that on the weakest weapon in the game, it still comes out a monster.

 

EDIT 1: typo

EDIT 2: clarity

Edited February 28, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Paradoxbomb]

If they were to reduce the effectiveness of straight +x% damage mods and compensated by adding more unique mods that promoted different strategies, play-styles, situational advantages, etc. so that high level content is more than a battle of numbers, I'd be okay with that.

[Calayne]

If they were to reduce the effectiveness of straight +x% damage mods and compensated by adding more unique mods that promoted different strategies, play-styles, situational advantages, etc. so that high level content is more than a battle of numbers, I'd be okay with that.

 

Amen to that, brother. 

[BrotherIcarus]

They can increase weapon damage by more than 10,000% in some cases (and as high as 31,000% in the case of the Ogris), trivializing content in their wake.

I am sorry what? That just sounds like bull. Could you explain exactly how they can increase the damage output by 31,000%? 

 

Running the maths in my head quickly and a 16K damage ogris is only a damage increase of about 1500%.

Edited February 28, 2014 by BrotherIcarus

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I am sorry what? That just sounds like bull. Could you explain exactly how they can increase the damage output by 31,000%? 

 

Running the maths in my head quickly and a 16K damage ogris is only a damage increase 1500%.

Ogris was a typo which I quickly corrected to say Penta.  Also, here's my math.  Column FZ.  (FinalDPS-InitialDPS)/InitialDPS=(16128.11-51.43)/51.43=312.59=31k%

 

I believe the quote I once heard was "you could mod a pillow into a nuclear bomb."

Edited February 28, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[lautalocos]

I am sorry what? That just sounds like bull. Could you explain exactly how they can increase the damage output by 31,000%? 

 

Running the maths in my head quickly and a 16K damage ogris is only a damage increase of about 1500%.

i imagine that considering all damage incrasing mods, multishots, elementals, crits and procs, the damage would be extremely high

[Calayne]

I am sorry what? That just sounds like bull. Could you explain exactly how they can increase the damage output by 31,000%? 

 

Running the maths in my head quickly and a 16K damage ogris is only a damage increase of about 1500%.

 

Well, according to my previous illustration, original damage is 100%. 10 times more damage is 1000%. So 100 times the damage is 10,000%. If you take my conservative estimate of 20 times the damage, that's still 2000% more damage than usual, and if you include resistance, an additional 75% of that 2000% could mean an approximation of 3500% increase, at least.

 

This is also not including Fire rate, area of effect and so on. Damage output is basically total damage, and if you consider the Penta and Ogris, you can triple damage output by hitting three enemies at a time, and so on. It's pretty nuts. Mods shouldn't make such a big difference.

 

Imagine in real life, your gun couldn't kill anyone until you had to put a potato in it and then stick a dozen different mods on it just to work. Then it blows your neighbourhood up. That's way too gangsta, man.

[Silraed]

The reason we have so many "Stalker is OP nerf him" and "Stalker is too weak buff him" threads is because of how the current mods work, too big of a difference between maxed and not maxed. Far too powerful of a bonus.

I vote yes.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Silraed

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Polls are stupid.

 

That said, if you want to give players more playstyles to choose from, forcing them to pick between different alternatives is the way to go. Base damage increase mods negate that choice, which is why we almost have none and are stuck with this extremely rigid meta of Base damage mod + base damage mod + multishot mod + faction base damage mod + elemental combo(s). Base damage mods should be abolished and turned into situational damage mods with requirements that don't apply to 100% of normal gameplay.

 

Serration doesn't need to be removed but nerfed into the ground as far as utility goes.

[STARSBarry]

I agree yes to this, the reason is pretty clear, the weapon should be by itself the reason to pick it, at the moment they are simply a wireframe to bolt mod setups into, as frame or weapon levels up they should become more powerful by themselves, mods should enhance not exceed the overall viability of a weapon, as it does right now

 

eg instead of max serration giving 165% damage increase it should give a 16% damage increase, but guns as standard should be more powerful

 

I mean I enjoy warframe as it is now, but this has been bugging me alot since the game launched way back in the day in closed beta

Edited February 28, 2014 by STARSBarry

[MeduSalem]

I'm in for a yes.

 

Some mods for base damage increase like Serration, Heavy Caliber, Hornet Strike, Multishot, and other additives/multipliers etc should be conditional on playstyle. They just increase damage and there's like no reason to not have them equipped ever, which basically means they are mandatory at all times, so they just waste space and take choice out of people. If we at all need base damage increase then it should be done with weapon level ups like our Warframe becomes better the higher it is ranked.

 

The elementals are okay, they give somewhat a tactical sense against different factions or units so they are not always plain more damage, because they may or may not be effective depending on how well a player knows to handle a specific faction.

[RoboDoge]

Whole mod system needs a rework, it is clunky and boring. Half of the mods are useless, and other half is almost god mode.

 

 

DE could make talents instead mods, utility and damage.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I'm in for a yes.

 

Some mods for base damage increase like Serration, Heavy Caliber, Hornet Strike, Multishot, and other additives/multipliers etc should be conditional on playstyle. They just increase damage and there's like no reason to not have them equipped ever, which basically means they are mandatory at all times, so they just waste space and take choice out of people. If we at all need base damage increase then it should be done with weapon level ups like our Warframe becomes better the higher it is ranked.

 

The elementals are okay, they give somewhat a tactical sense against different factions or units so they are not always plain more damage, because they may or may not be effective depending on how well a player knows to handle a specific faction.

Level-ups aren't any better...  They make power growth just as unstable.

[WhiteCopain]

I think it would be good if Mods did less but the end was the same

 

Pretend a gun had 5 damage and mods made it 10.

 

Make it so the gun has 7 damage (gets some through levels) and mods make it 10.

 

 

It would be easier to balance around at the least.

[MeduSalem]

Level-ups aren't any better...  They make power growth just as unstable.

 

Yepp, that's why I wrote "if at all". There's still a little difference in it than to how it's done now. Level-ups are fixed. If the weapon hits 30 then that's about it. The Base-damage doesn't increase anymore. It is predictable. Mods are not, because they are stackable and DE always seems to have a favor to push out another damage related mod which basically means there's no limit on scaling damage.

 

[edit]

 

... Only mod-slots being the limitation and if it weren't for that, people would put even more damage related mods on the weapons instead of ever thinking about utility. :S

Edited February 28, 2014 by MeduSalem

[(PSN)Mcgezax1994]

I agree yes to this, the reason is pretty clear, the weapon should be by itself the reason to pick it, at the moment they are simply a wireframe to bolt mod setups into, as frame or weapon levels up they should become more powerful by themselves, mods should enhance not exceed the overall viability of a weapon, as it does right now

 

eg instead of max serration giving 165% damage increase it should give a 16% damage increase, but guns as standard should be more powerful

 

I mean I enjoy warframe as it is now, but this has been bugging me alot since the game launched way back in the day in closed beta

This^

[Calayne]

Level-ups aren't any better...  They make power growth just as unstable.

 

We actually had this debate before. I think it depends entirely on implementation. Volt had a more interesting idea, though, related to weapon usage and power growth. It's hard to explain here, but you should give it a read: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/181670-de-why-i-give-up-on-warframes-balance/

 

I personally am all for either approach: Volt's or a weapon growth system of some kind, if only to mitigate the gap between weapon damage, but modded and unmodded. 

 

The observation right now is that some weapon DPS can go up to 31,000% higher, while others remain at 1,000% or so, and that's a terrible place to be in. At least, if Serration is nerfed into the ground, Multishot consumes the ammo shot, and elementals convert damage instead of adding them, we'll be able to balance difficulty to an extent.

 

Volt's is a more comprehensive solution. Mine's a stop-gap band-aid if they cannot implement harder mechanisms, which I'd adore. 

[Limestyle]

I'm in for a yes.

 

Some mods for base damage increase like Serration, Heavy Caliber, Hornet Strike, Multishot, and other additives/multipliers etc should be conditional on playstyle. They just increase damage and there's like no reason to not have them equipped ever, which basically means they are mandatory at all times, so they just waste space and take choice out of people. If we at all need base damage increase then it should be done with weapon level ups like our Warframe becomes better the higher it is ranked.

 

The elementals are okay, they give somewhat a tactical sense against different factions or units so they are not always plain more damage, because they may or may not be effective depending on how well a player knows to handle a specific faction.

 

Those mods, aside from Serration and Hornet strike, should be there in my opinion. It is something to work towards when improving your weapons. The one thing I would change is to reduce the overall damage given by each mod. As mentioned by someone previously, the damage difference is currently way too high between players with fully upgraded mods and those without any mods. By reducing damage, this would make it easier to balance the difficulty of content like stalker, outer planets, and "end game".