[Poll] Should Mods Have Less Influence On Damage Output?

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Finally a thread that actually uses poll, I have been emphasizing the importance of polling for feedback to the developers.  I might just use this poll website.

 

on the issue of mod.  I don't think mods make anything unbalanced, infact they make things more balanced and more individualized.  For example many people say they don't like the reload time of dual cestras, or the recoil, and also it eats through ammo, YES it will take two or three mods two balance these out,  But i personally like using those mods to balance this sidearm this certain way.  A friend of mine does not care too much about recoil or reload time, so he goes for pure damage build.  there is a lot of personalization that is done with mods and its not only for damage.

 

Take the soma.  most people as myself build it for pure damage,  But there are ways to build this gun, its relaod time is 3 seconds, not too bad, but some might not like that, or some people love soma with shred on, and some dont. some go for pure damage.  Some put heavy caliber and do not care about the negative accuracy effects.  Mods give you the option to customize things.

 

Infact for those who think the mods make things imbalanced, they atually make things balanced to your preference.  I have not found any gun in the game to be overly OP as of Damage 2.0.  some can argue the brakk, but many don't even like using the brakk for various reasons.

 

There are always negative and positives to the weapons. things are already balanced.

First off, polls like this are meaningless due to sampling bias.

 

So because everything can one-shot everything, it's balanced?  That's not how that works...  Damage mods are obligatory.  Imagine playing sans Serration or Split Chamber or sans elemental mods.  You'll be so much weaker it's not even funny.  These things are hogging mod slots from the utility mods that we'd all like to use but are pushed out by the damage mods.

 

People naturally tend to gravitate towards building for power and usability.  After a weapon is usable, power tends to win out.

 

Also, if you think there's a positive and negative to every weapon, give me one downside to the Soma and one upside to the Spectra.  Reload on the Soma doesn't count because you can kill everything nearby in a fraction of that magazine.

 

And you're missing the whole point that the game can't be balanced because weapons have power spikes at irregular times due to differing builds and of course, the obvious power spikes when a player first gets Serration or Split Chamber.  These power spikes preclude any semblance of balanceable difficulty which means that we can't have any sense of challenge in this game.  Skill can't ever matter when you have mods increasing damage by 10k% or more.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Ketec]

what else is there to play for, then grind for new mods to make ur gear more op?

Nothing. There is no endgame, story  or anything else.

Remove that and instead have some cheap "leveling" crap... and i would have been bored and quit 7 months ago.

And don't bring any pvp here as endgame - that makes me quit aswell.

 

the mod system's problem is lack of variety - enemy types, resistances and how  diff combinations work, essentially just allow specific builds/combos to be effective.

having yo level a weapon for more damage ( or fuse materials into it) - is way worse then leveling  a serration. At least you can use serration on multiple items - and don't have to  do that for every new item.

[DJSmash]

Finally a thread that actually uses poll, I have been emphasizing the importance of polling for feedback to the developers.  I might just use this poll website.

 

*Snip*

 

While having a poll is good...It doesn't mean the result is justified/accurate or free from abuse..because I can vote twice!

OP has to verify/filter out/review the inputs...else the result is misleading.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

what else is there to play for, then grind for new mods to make ur gear more op?

Nothing. There is no endgame, story  or anything else.

Remove that and instead have some cheap "leveling" crap... and i would have been bored and quit 7 months ago.

And don't bring any pvp here as endgame - that makes me quit aswell.

 

the mod system's problem is lack of variety - enemy types, resistances and how  diff combinations work, essentially just allow specific builds/combos to be effective.

having yo level a weapon for more damage ( or fuse materials into it) - is way worse then leveling  a serration. At least you can use serration on multiple items - and don't have to  do that for every new item.

If there were some semblance of challenge in the game, then there would be.  Warframe is actually quite fun when you land in that extremely narrow gap where content is neither too easy nor too hard.  That place where player skill matters.  I want to make that place wider.

 

If you're referring to my Mastery idea as "some cheap leveling crap," I'd like to point out that you'd still get your power growth in the aforementioned balanced and challenging game and switching weapons would be less painful because power isn't determined by mods, so weapon rank has no impact on power.

 

If you're referring to the idea of moving the power from mods to weapon levels, then I agree that it wouldn't actually solve anything.

[Ketec]

having all the weapons with more or less same damage/power potential, based off the mastery alone, would remove any initiative for trying diff weapons if they doesn't sound and look epic ( which is currently like 80% of ingame items).

 

Mastery also requires even more time to grind all new items to max (+ the plat abuse/extreme advantage  with the affinity boosts and instant no craft buyable weapons).

 

Also i seen o potential way to even compensate players who have full collection of mods, maxed and spent 100-s of hours or even thousands. And suddenly all of it would become worthless.

 

Instead the hwole mod system should be more dynamic - less boost/bonus at lower levels, more as enemy gets higher.

This way you wont be dealing 50k/s to a lvl 5 grineer and 5/s to lvl 100 grineer. Instead a well modded item would have decent dps as enemy gets higher aswell.

Need to stop promoting/making certain elements primary. Corrosive is one of the dominant ones due to lack of any penalties, good status and generally good vs everything ( xept proto shields.. which doesnt really mater much) rtc.

Even many of the mods focus on just certain combos - like corrupted/dual stat ones providing only one element bonus ( should just be 60% elemental damage instead of 60% poison for example).

 

Crit is another issue - it only works for very few weapons and never works for others - and isnt even worth trying.

 

The mods  slots could be in categories - for example status/crit mod slots, elemental / physical damage slots and misc (speed, rof, ammo etc).

[Volt_Cruelerz]

having all the weapons with more or less same damage/power potential, based off the mastery alone, would remove any initiative for trying diff weapons if they doesn't sound and look epic ( which is currently like 80% of ingame items).

 

Mastery also requires even more time to grind all new items to max (+ the plat abuse/extreme advantage  with the affinity boosts and instant no craft buyable weapons).

 

Also i seen o potential way to even compensate players who have full collection of mods, maxed and spent 100-s of hours or even thousands. And suddenly all of it would become worthless.

...  If power is based on mastery, then you have incentive to try everything...

 

Why are those things abuse?

 

Except I'm not advocating the removal of damage mods exactly.  The mods would still exist in the new system.  I've got a thread on the subject and basically anyone who already had them would get grandfathered in.

[DJSmash]

*Snip*

 

Also i seen o potential way to even compensate players who have full collection of mods, maxed and spent 100-s of hours or even thousands. And suddenly all of it would become worthless.

 

*Snip*

 

*cough*LEGENDARY CORES*cough*

 

 

#Edit1: I read your reply below my posting,volt..but i am gonna take this oppurtunity to say it for once..once!..what others have uttered like it meant nothing in various serious/valid discussion.

 

ITS BETA!

Edited February 28, 2014 by DJSmash

[Volt_Cruelerz]

*cough*LEGENDARY CORES*cough*

If we're talking about my system, then no need for compensation because those mods still have value. If talking about a passive based version of my idea, legendary cores are meaningless.

[fatpig84]

Mods will always have influence on damage output.

Even freaking fast hands or ammo mutation since that means your sustained DPS over time is significantly improved.

 

So.........

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

The main problem is that there are no challenging enemies, either they're bullet sponges or they're pushovers, balancing enemies around stats is impossible. What we really need are fast, responsive enemies. For example Chargers moving like Zanuka or the Hyenas, Ballistas that pack a punch and with invisibility (about as visible as Loki's), Crewmen deploying and repairing MOAs. It was suggested before, but unless DE gives us smart enemies there will never be balance, even if they remove scaling alltogether. Also they need to come up with Ammo 2.0, Penta by itself is not broken, the 540 shot reserve is.

[ToeSama]

Mods will always have influence on damage output.

Even freaking fast hands or ammo mutation since that means your sustained DPS over time is significantly improved.

 

I don't think this is anywhere near contention among those that would like to see things change. I think it's more that weapons and mods should go half way on how much they promote growth (if not 75% from weapons and 25% from mods), and that strict damage upgrade mods like Serration and the like should change heavily to become part of the weapon system itself than part of the mod system.

 

Elemental damage, multishot, crit enhancement... all these things should still be viable, and likely sought after to make guns stronger. But should they be the main reason that players have high damage? No. Being forced to choose these mods for such a thing is part of the reason why other mods are not chosen. Damage should fall within the purview of the weaponry. Mods should alter how damage works (damage becomes elemental damage, gun shoots more than one bullet in intervals, critical hits easier to obtain or get a bit of extra damage, etc...). They should not be the main reason weapons can deal damage as they are now.

[Phatose]

The more you switch power from Mod based to Weapon/Frame based, the more you compress the time scale of growth.  Obtaining and leveling a full collection of mods takes weeks, if not months.  Leveling a weapon to 30 takes hours, maybe days if you're slow about it. 

 

To me, the idea that you should receive as much benefit for the effort put in for a single afternoon as you should for weeks of effort is just wrong. 

[fatpig84]

The more you switch power from Mod based to Weapon/Frame based, the more you compress the time scale of growth.  Obtaining and leveling a full collection of mods takes weeks, if not months.  Leveling a weapon to 30 takes hours, maybe days if you're slow about it. 

 

To me, the idea that you should receive as much benefit for the effort put in for a single afternoon as you should for weeks of effort is just wrong. 

 

I can understand that, but that doesn't mean things doesn't change.

Remember we had to farm warframe bp orbs where 20 to 30 games to get 1 warframe is considered "hey not bad?".

While I remember those days where we grind and joked together, it doesn't mean it is desirable and should stay.

 

Boosting weapons by levels will help new players, a lot. In fact this will help smooth out the journey from Mercury to Mars considerably and keep player retention.

 

So my suggestion as below.

 

Serration = 10% per level.

Max Serration = 110% extra damage

Rifle = 2% weapon damage per level.

Level 30 rifle = +60% damage.

Total = 170% damage

 

 

Hornet strike = 12% per level 

Max HS = 132% damage

Pistols = 3% per level. 

Level 30 = 90% damage

Total = 222% damage.

 

 

Melee generally needs even more buffs

Pressure point has the same gain as charged damage.

 

Max PS = +150%

Max KB = +150%

 

Melee = +3% to charge and normal attacks per level

Level 30 melee = +90%

 

 

Only Heavy Cal / Mag Force/ spoiled strike / corrupt charge remains the same, because they are "optional" and have draw backs.

Edited February 28, 2014 by fatpig84

[ToeSama]

The more you switch power from Mod based to Weapon/Frame based, the more you compress the time scale of growth.  Obtaining and leveling a full collection of mods takes weeks, if not months.  Leveling a weapon to 30 takes hours, maybe days if you're slow about it. 

 

To me, the idea that you should receive as much benefit for the effort put in for a single afternoon as you should for weeks of effort is just wrong. 

 

By all technical rights, one could buy themselves into the top range of power through trading if they really wanted. I'd rather have players getting to level 30 on a single weapon within a day or two's time than to have to spend months and months and months trying to max out a proper aray of mods, or spend around as much as some founders did for the garbage that is Lato and Skana Prime to get the best of the best where mods are concerned.

 

Lack of end game is an issue, but I also continually contest that Warframe doesn't even have a mid game. Farm up mods and grind weapon/frame levels is all there is to do from the very first mission. That's no where near mid, or even end game content. That's beginning game content. The beginning game content has been stretched out to the point where people consider it mid game and end game content. If folks really want it kept that way, I'd sooner it be less and less of a landslide of RNG aggravation and Grinding nightmares. It's not like Warframe has anything of true unique value to it's combat system right now, so why make it such a pain to get even a modicum of decent power behind ones self without the luck of the gods and enough spare mod drops and credits to upgrade all relevant mods for the next area?

Edited February 28, 2014 by ToeSama

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Ballistas that pack a punch and with invisibility (about as visible as Loki's)

Please no ;_; think of the colorblind players...

 

I don't think this is anywhere near contention among those that would like to see things change. I think it's more that weapons and mods should go half way on how much they promote growth (if not 75% from weapons and 25% from mods), and that strict damage upgrade mods like Serration and the like should change heavily to become part of the weapon system itself than part of the mod system.

 

Elemental damage, multishot, crit enhancement... all these things should still be viable, and likely sought after to make guns stronger. But should they be the main reason that players have high damage? No. Being forced to choose these mods for such a thing is part of the reason why other mods are not chosen. Damage should fall within the purview of the weaponry. Mods should alter how damage works (damage becomes elemental damage, gun shoots more than one bullet in intervals, critical hits easier to obtain or get a bit of extra damage, etc...). They should not be the main reason weapons can deal damage as they are now.

The concern there though is the difference between a min and max weapon will be something that can be accomplished very quickly which means that there is no long-term growth which is bad for the RPG elements of the game.

 

I can understand that, but that doesn't mean things doesn't change.

Remember we had to farm warframe bp orbs where 20 to 30 games to get 1 warframe is considered "hey not bad?".

While I remember those days where we grind and joked together, it doesn't mean it is desirable and should stay.

 

Boosting weapons by levels will help new players, a lot. In fact this will help smooth out the journey from Mercury to Mars considerably and keep player retention.

 

...

 

Only Heavy Cal / Mag Force/ spoiled strike / corrupt charge remains the same, because they are "optional" and have draw backs.

If you haven't already, you may want to check out Calayne's thread.  It seems fairly similar.

 

On the subject of Heavy Caliber, I'd like to point out that on some weapons, the tradeoff is meaningless...  I think it needs to have a more global negative to be reasonable.

[Phatose]

By all technical rights, one could buy themselves into the top range of power through trading if they really wanted. I'd rather have players getting to level 30 on a single weapon within a day or two's time than to have to spend months and months and months trying to max out a proper aray of mods, or spend around as much as some founders did for the garbage that is Lato and Skana Prime to get the best of the best where mods are concerned.

 

Lack of end game is an issue, but I also continually contest that Warframe doesn't even have a mid game. Farm up mods and grind weapon/frame levels is all there is to do from the very first mission. That's no where near mid, or even end game content. That's beginning game content. The beginning game content has been stretched out to the point where people consider it mid game and end game content. If folks really want it kept that way, I'd sooner it be less and less of a landslide of RNG aggravation and Grinding nightmares. It's not like Warframe has anything of true unique value to it's combat system right now, so why make it such a pain to get even a modicum of decent power behind ones self without the luck of the gods and enough spare mod drops and credits to upgrade all relevant mods for the next area?

 

Entire genres exist on the principle that perpetual growth is a goal in and of itself.  Forget MMOs, this is a trademark of 4X games for ages.  Framing up, level up - that's the whole game, and that's not actually a problem.  Grow until you can't grow any more is as good a goal as any game actually gets.

[ToeSama]

The concern there though is the difference between a min and max weapon will be something that can be accomplished very quickly which means that there is no long-term growth which is bad for the RPG elements of the game.

 

I don't really see the issue here to terribly. The game already struggles with virtually no long term goals aside from grinding more gear as is. The trading system itself removes the treasure hunting RPG aspect for some people in much the same way the auction house did with Diablo 3...

 

Entire genres exist on the principle that perpetual growth is a goal in and of itself.  Forget MMOs, this is a trademark of 4X games for ages.  Framing up, level up - that's the whole game, and that's not actually a problem.  Grow until you can't grow any more is as good a goal as any game actually gets.

 

I fail to see where perpetual growth would stop being a thing really, so long as DE does what they continue to and make new weapons, new mods and new frames every now and again.

 

That being said, the game explores no other alternative goals for players who see no point to growing as much as one can. I, for example, quite obviously do not find that something I can do from the very beginning of the game to be a comparable goal worth engaging in as my end game experience. Getting beefy is fine, but I want something else to do with it, not just take it to get the next thing I'm gonna grind up levels or mods for...

[fatpig84]

 

On the subject of Heavy Caliber, I'd like to point out that on some weapons, the tradeoff is meaningless...  I think it needs to have a more global negative to be reasonable.

 

Well my rank 8 HC already sends my Latron prime shooting everywhere except center mass.

And Torid just goes everywhere.

 

The only guns that really benefits is Ignis or Flux and... Soma.

Synapse loses too much accuracy for me as well IMO.

[Treble557]

lmao, guess i was the only one back in closed beta that enjoyed weapon leveling as opposed to the current mod system. 

 

It felt good watching my gun grow and gain a baseline of power that could potentially be expanded upon. The current system kinda blows imo because it's like GUESS WHAT YOU SUCK WITHOUT MODS X, Y, and Z! AND GETTING THEM IS LIKE PULLING TEETH OR YOU HAVE TO PAY SOMEONE PLAT FOR IT WHICH COSTS RL MONEY.

 

The current system really makes the game feel like it's pay to win more then anything with how hard it is to find the essential mods (serration, element combos, multi shot, etc) for newer players, because when they realize they aren't doing $&*^ for dmg, then they'll start looking to guns on the market going I guess one of these is what I need to buy to do something? Then feel ripped off when they still dont do much dmg and go "hmm.. guess I need plat for mods now?"

 

I never had those feels back when I played the game in closed beta, not until they switched to the mod system. Then after getting serration and multi shot I realized the game was feeling more and more gimmicky and stopped as a result.

 

 

So yeah.. The level system was nice with the way it was. I feel like they could bring that back, make guns have some baseline powers and talent tree's via it, and then have mod slots like they did before between the nodes, where you could put in mods we have now like elements, or +dmg to a race, or reload speed, etc.

 

 

The mod system imo, needs a heavy revamp or needs to go.

[Calayne]

To those who oppose the change of mods to something less drastic: We've never even said anything about removing damage mods entirely. There is still growth. And there is still the ability (and need) to grind out that stupid-hungry Serration. 

 

"NO! We need damage mods because I like to instagib things!"

"NO! We just need to balance the enemies! HAVE BIGGER NUMBERS! You COD and Halo players go back where you came from!"

"NO! WE NEED TO GRIND!"

"NO! How will we ever challenge end-game content with no overpowered damage mods?!"

"NO! The game is already balanced! We already have so many choices! Look at them just rain on me, man."

 

These are your main points for contention. Fair enough. If I'm honest, these answers make me constipated.

 

Currently, "Have bigger numbers", "Overpowered mods" and "Instagib" are closely tied and diametrically opposite to "The game is already balanced" or "We just need to balance things". The fact that we use the word "Overpowered" suggests that the word "Balance" cannot exactly exist on the same spectrum. It is impossible to balance the game with the mods we have now. Period.

 

And that is because, as Volt keeps repeating, the growth is "Violent and unpredictable". Combinations of RNG, grind, core allocation and HUGE POWER DIFFERENCES between people who are lucky or rich enough to have all the "Required" mods and those who don't is a problem, even before we consider the fact that filling our weapons up with 2 damage mods and up to 4 elemental damage mods already whittles down our choices to two free slots.

 

Let's face it: We will always go for damage mods over Fast Hands, Ammo Drum, Stabilizer, Eagle Eye, Magazine Warp, Rifle Aptitude, Hush and maybe one Serration mod. It sounds like an excellent long-range support for the Grakata, but you'll never see it. We're too busy doing "Serration, Split Chamber, Heavy Calibre, Malignant Force, Cryo Rounds, Stormbringer, Fast hands and Hellfire". 

 

You want me to translate that for you?

 

"Damage, Damage, Damage, Damage, Damage, Damage, Fast hands, DAMAGE."

 

This is your build diversity, people who worship the damage mod. THIS is your "Balance". Your "Choices". Not many people won't use this formula when going to their most feared places. Say, a mission comes out that instantly pits you against the hardest opponents. Not insta-kill on you, but you're deathly afraid of fighting them in force.

 

What gun would you pick? What mods would you choose? 

 

There is no choice. Your choice is a lie. If I said you had to choose between me killing you and you walking free, that is not a real choice. This is a FALSE CHOICE. And this only benefits the people who have an ego problem and want to see everything die around them, always. I am not sorry to say this.

 

With Volt's system, you can still instagib things: The things that are lower levelled, and if you have a high enough Proficiency, which is understandable. 

 

There is still grind. Proficiency and Cores still need to be obtained.

 

There is still progress. Because with Proficiency comes the increase of power.

 

But there will also be challenge.

 

This game has no challenge for people like us: People who have all the required mods to make our dream builds. Granted, all of it revolves around damage, but that's the point we're trying to make. But with the Proficiency system at least, we can predict that damage growth. We can scale it down, and let other guns compete for a place in the squad.

 

No more "Hey. I think you should bring a Penta. Three Pentas just aren't enough. We're serious about this." This actually happened, in a T3 Survival mission. I just used my Karak, to the host's great displeasure. 

 

We should aim for: "Grakata? Cool, we need some sustained DPS and proc chance to support our Vectis. We're gonna be carrying the Gorgon and Boltor for some fire-power."

 

"Guys, what about FOUR Pentas?"

 

"Stfu, you want to get us killed?"

 

And when we can do this, we can say we have balanced weapons and gave people a choice of what weapons and load-out they want to bring. And with that, comes the ability for designers to know what to expect when they create enemies. Armed with this knowledge, they'll be able to design enemies that will be able to withstand our onslaught, but still get mowed down satisfyingly enough. They can adjust enemy number and damage, so they're a legitimate threat. They can predict how much HP a boss should have, and how much damage he should deal. No more invincibility periods so we don't roll over him like a b*tch. No more unknown moments of insta-gib. You knew what level you had to be before you even got there.

 

We now have a choice to play how we want. Damage mods don't need to be around all the time, but they're a choice. You can sacrifice your flexibility for damage, or you can choose to work towards a particular play style. Yet, both are viable. This is our aim.

[Thrymm]

No, I neither thing mods are overpowered nor are even the root of any problem.

 

The first problem is that content does not scale to the power level of the mods.  The highest level "normal" mobs---NOT the ones you stand on a box in a defense mission waiting for--should be a relative challenge for the highest modded weaponry.

 

The second is a very real and extreme difference in the scalability of weaponry.  Some weapons, when given different modifiers, multiplicatively increase in power(as shown in plenty of the math in this post).  Some weapons simply do not gain this kind of power boost.  Either all weapons should, or all weapons shouldn't.  The mods don't create this problem, however, it lies squarely in the base stats of the weaponry.

 

The Grakata versus, say, the Boltor is an easy example to point a finger at.  The base Grakata is downright pathetic---it's either the lowest, or among the lowest, DPS weapons in the game.  It has very high modifiers, though, so when given percentage based mods its potential multiplies very fast.  Status chance increase on the Grakata raises the bar from this into a whole new world.  The Boltor, by contrast, has a much higher base damage but is virtually bereft of any useful multiplier.  Even by modding it to its highest damage, the lack of modifier potential means that it "tops out" much lower than the Grakata.  Crit and Status mods do nearly nothing for the weapon.

 

This is because the Boltor, due to having no worthwhile multiplicative stats, progresses in a linear fashion.  The current mods merely add damage.  The Grakata, with its very high multipliers, causes these percentage based mods to multiply it's damage.

 

A person can, on sight, see which weapons will be effective by merely glancing at its status, crit, and crit multiplier stats.  A blank slate guarantees a relatively non-scalar piece of weaponry.  A high number in any category guarantees a potential usefulness.

 

A high crit weapon should have a low crit multiplier.  A high status weapon should have low crit chance.  Base damage should center squarely on damage types and rate of fire, with some level of recoil and accuracy added in.

 

Weapons like the explosives are an outlier that really only shine due to the current game progression.  Yesterday I stood on a box, with an Ogris, as a level 5 trinity and went to level 30(35?) in an infested endless defense that started with level 21 mobs.  I left because I got bored, not because I couldn't make another five(the end was coming, but I could have gone at least one more set). 

 

The game mode and poor AI made this possible, not the weapon itself----I'm the guy that blows himself up in the spawn with the Ogris, I simply can't carry it if I'll have to be moving.  It's a different problem entirely.

[Guest Shibboleet]

-snip-

Question: Were they attacking the cryopod and not you in your defense? Or were they stuck attempting to attack you?

[Thrymm]

They where attacking the cryopod--maybe one in a hundred(if even that) infested even bothers to try to attack you if you're on a different elevation than they are, and a sweeper on the sentinel makes short work of that one---I know that the NPC's COULD come to me if they chose to(read: not an exploit), the Grineer in the mission posed the biggest threat as they occasionally jumped in front of me, threatening to make me blow myself up.

 

The same can be said for virtually any map with an obtainable elevated place and infested, though---enemies that only melee simply won't come after you if there is a hittable target(the cryopod) and they are not able to quickly and easily get to the same height you are at.  High explosive weapons that quickly kill enemies(mostly one hits) exacerbates the problem because they don't take enough damage to even consider switching before they die.

 

Better AI that prioritizes threat more accurately would fix alot of this, as would allowing them to make it to virtually any area a player can get to.  In terms of weaponry changes themselves, the damage multipliers on the explosives aren't the culprit behind the problem.  Rather, the unlimited ammo pool causes it because there is no reason at all to put yourself in harms way----you can literally jump down and loot up between waves, starting each with full ammo(I'd say full energy too, but when doing this there is no reason to bother with abilities or taking damage).

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

The first problem is that content does not scale to the power level of the mods.  The highest level "normal" mobs---NOT the ones you stand on a box in a defense mission waiting for--should be a relative challenge for the highest modded weaponry.

 

The issue with this to me is that if you do this, these damage mods become even more essential and your balance gets even worse. Think back on the whole argument for a second.

 

Mods are capable of making a gun up to or greater than 100 times more effective, IF you have all the mods, a very expensive and time consuming process. An unmodded gun is not even slightly comparable to a modded gun (unless you're maybe comparing Penta/Ogris to another gun, but that is because Penta/Ogris are ridiculous to begin with).

 

Let's say our end game challenge will be some boosted up level of T3, at a level that challenges our guns.

 

At the level that highly modded guns actually do get challenged at, is the level where 90% of warframe damage abilities become worthless. The only actually worthwhile abilities that are useful are 1) very powerful CC abilities (Vauban, Chaos), 2) high utilities abilities (ex. Radial Disarm, Blessing), and 3) damage abilities that scale either with enemies or our weapons (Shield Polarize, Antimatter Drop, Absorb). Note that on number 3, the only valid damage options are either, again, those that scale with enemies (Shield Polarize, which effectively turns shields against the enemy and thus is absurdly lethal to Corpus) or those that scale with our weapons (AMD/Absorb). Now you can chain AMD and use Absorb off of enemy damage, but it's faster and more powerful if you use your own weapon (in the case of AMD, at least for the first orb to quickly give yourself a high baseline of damage).

 

Weapon mods in their current state are utterly overpowering when matched up against their warframe counterparts. While warframe abilities are great for low to mid levels, there are very few damage abilities that you can even call relevant at a very high level. You'll simply do far more damage and kill far more enemies by just point modded gun X into a crowd and spraying randomly. You essentially lose a whole section of gameplay choices.

 

Even with the differences in how weapons scale, it really doesn't matter for warframe right now. You can still take the lesser scaling weapons and still turn them into monsters that utterly S#&$ on everything ever.

 

This also makes content scaling utterly terrible. If you have this super modded Ignis, you can literally just bind W+M1 and have no issues for most content other than high level stuff. All this lower level stuff is utterly trivialized and I don't think that's a good thing. The difference between health values in very high level and low level are too big right now. Things need to get squeezed together. The way things scale and the rate they scale at are all out of balance. Weapons don't scale the same as warframes which don't scale the same as enemies. The first two are a direct consequence of the difference in what their respective mods can do.

 

While I would love improved AI, improved AI doesn't matter if the enemy is dead before they can even move.

[nemarsde]

I'm no expert, but here's what I enjoy about Warframe's gameplay.

 

Using a powerful offence but weak defence build (frex, high level weapons, low level warframe). So you have to move more tactically, use cover, etc. This is only really possible on low-level missions though. You tend to get mobbed or near insta-gibbed on higher level missions, with a weak defence build.

 

Timed vaults. The only skilled gameplay in Warframe are timed vaults.

 

I don't really know what this says about this topic. But I do know I'd hate it if both enemy and player TTK was so high, you stand there shooting at each other in the open, like two stubborn kids with cowboy guns.