Remove Loki As A Starting Frame

[Tainted_Fox]

Remove Loki as a starting frame. and replace it with ash to fill the stealthy game play role

i've been getting told from other loki newcomers. as much as i love loki. he's not much suited for early gameplay. the advanced gameplay that he's required to do is not as rewarding as using the other 2 more powerful warframes. 

people that end up picking loki feel that they lack power and feel like they don't contribute to any missions they go on

be nice. give em an ash instead. they'll probably play for long enough to buy platium

Edited March 2, 2014 by Tainted_Fox

[alchemistjkt]

so instead of having a really good frame, you would rather they have a bad one?

cool.

[WrothBog]

ash looks better than loki, he seems to be a mid ground between excalibur and loki too so it could work out.

[TDS0Spoderman]

i still think Oberon should be within the starters being a jack of all trades 

[ThousandDogs]

so instead of having a really good frame, you would rather they have a bad one?

cool.

The whole point of Loki is that it's for experienced players. In the hands of someone new to the game who doesn't have a good weapon nor a good idea of what powers do and what situations they're useful in? Yeah, Loki's not fitting at all.

[WrothBog]

so instead of having a really good frame, you would rather they have a bad one?

cool.

loki is terrible early on when you have vitality rank 2 etc. they all are. if i hadn't have bought platinum and a valkyr i'd have probably quit.

 

excalibur and loki have the most boring abilities for a newby player. high level utility matters little when a lvl 3 corpus can kill you with blind fire and all you have is an inept decoy that does nothing or a suicide charge into more lasers

[Cruispleuro]

I agree with this somewhat. My starter was Loki and I felt like I was contributing nothing when I played online. Also, Loki is fairly difficult to play with his low shield stats until Continuity is acquired, which now apparently only drops from Sargas Ruk instead of from any enemy like it was before Drop Table 2.0.

[Seasonsofclarity]

Picked Loki as starter Frame (before they allowed us to get a mod in the tutorial no less, back in Closed Beta).

 

Found game difficult.

 

Suffered through.

 

Learned how to play the game better as a result.

[shut]

No. Keep it as is.

 

Loki is advertised as a Frame "for advanced players". It's supposed to be difficult.

The only major issue I see with Loki players being useless at the beginning is that they are useless-- not out of lack of skill, but more so because they rely on their weapons too much when the starting weapons are absolutely horrendous. Loki players end up left with nothing to fall back on, and the best new Loki ends up struggling to keep up with the worst new Excalibur.

Rather than changing the starting Frame entirely, they should simply make the starting levels a tad bit more representative of the rest of the game-- i.e. give new players weapons that are still the worst in the game, but not abysmally so.

 

The "new player experience" is notoriously poor in this game, and weapon stats are a huge part of the reason. Loki players are naturally hit the hardest.

Don't swap out Loki. Solve the root of the problem.

Edited March 2, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Desauron]

If i remember corectly, every warframe got a description. "Desired by the advanced players.... etc", if a newbie enters the game and defiles the description, thiking that he can handle or deserve loki and he fails, then he deserve to be wiped down the floor by the game.

[WrothBog]

the McBraton is a whole other issue of why make newbies suffer so badly

[Brahmastra]

> is not as rewarding as using the other 2 more powerful warframes.

 

As in any game there are most likely 3 tiers.. easy mode, normal mode and hard(er) mode. Since warframe doesn't have these modes they have 3 different frames instead. Though I still don't understand why Loki is not as rewarding in fact he is probably the best frame, of the 3 starter frames, to farm a boss for a new frame. Just because he doesn't have skills like Nova doesn't mean he's bad.

[DieWahreEnte]

I had read some interesting points and must agree to most of them.

 

A lot of my frinds joint warframe because of my recomendations.

 

Some of them listend to my advice and stard with loki because it is the best starder frame.

 

But compared to people who have had choosen excalibur, the loki players needed much more help and advice to get through the tasks of early game.

 

Without the right mods and weapons, loki is the worse performing frame of all starter frames!

Don't misunderstood what i am trying to tell you.

Loki is one of the best frames in general and non plus ultra for solo gaming!

But onley if u can mod and equipe it right. And when u know, how you should use your skills.

 

In my opinion, every starder frame should be able to take some punishment and should have a chance of survival, when the new players made their inevitable mistakes.

Loki is a everything or nothing frame. If u can handel it - it is great. If u just try something new and don't know how to do u will lay dead on the ground, most of the time.

 

I was sad, when DE replaced Volt as starder frame, for other reasons. It is still one of my favorit frames and a lot fun to play.

 

But highly specialized frames are end game contend!

 

So replacing Loki with Ash is a good idea and in my opinion the right choise.

 

 

 

 

 

THX for your patience - my text gets a little bit longer than i had in mind, when i starded this post - and sorry for my spelling and grammar but i am not a nativ english speaking person.

[Tainted_Fox]

No. Keep it as is.

 

Loki is advertised as a Frame "for advanced players". It's supposed to be difficult.

The only major issue I see with Loki players being useless at the beginning is that they are useless-- not out of lack of skill, but more so because they rely on their weapons too much when the starting weapons are absolutely horrendous. Loki players end up left with nothing to fall back on, and the best new Loki ends up struggling to keep up with the worst new Excalibur.

Rather than changing the starting Frame entirely, they should simply make the starting levels a tad bit more representative of the rest of the game-- i.e. give new players weapons that are still the worst in the game, but not abysmally so.

 

The "new player experience" is notoriously poor in this game, and weapon stats are a huge part of the reason. Loki players are naturally hit the hardest.

Don't swap out Loki. Solve the root of the problem.

that's part of the issue. when a newcomer starts he's most definitely not an advanced player. and even if you are some chance of an advanced player. the reward does not match the difficulty of play early game loki. newcomers need to feel power from their frames to keep playing them.

i also agree with giving em a decent choice of weapons to start with to push through early levels

and at no point i said loki was a bad frame. its just a bad starting frame. I freaking love loki to bits. he's just more suited to end game/higher lvl play. not using him for lvl 10 grineer.

also if advanced players really wanted to use loki. they will farm for them. that also being said, if you want to give them that option. loki should to moved to a lower lvl planet

[SquirmyBurrito]

Remove Loki as a starting frame. and replace it with ash to fill the stealthy game play role

i've been getting told from other loki newcomers. as much as i love loki. he's not much suited for early gameplay. the advanced gameplay that he's required to do is not as rewarding as using the other 2 more powerful warframes. 

people that end up picking loki feel that they lack power and feel like they don't contribute to any missions they go on

be nice. give em an ash instead. they'll probably play for long enough to buy platium

 

Loki is flat out advertised as being a frame for more advanced players, if newbies pick him despite that warning that is their fault. On the upside, players who choose Loki go down one of four paths:

 

1. They become strong players, capable of handling enemies without needing to press 4 every other second.

2. They wither under the pressure and spend the entire experience complaining and mashing 2.

3. They drop the frame and acquire another one (via plat or farming).

4. They stop playing the game. 

 

Replacing Loki with Ash would basically just give newbies another excalibur-like frame to play around with. Players who choose one of the other two starters tend to go down one of three paths:

1. They become strong players despite their ease of access. These players tend to be strong prior to playing warframe.

2. They learn to spam. (extremely common, these players tend to acquire Rhino as their next frame and the rest is history)

3. They stop playing the game because they think it is too easy.

 

ash looks better than loki, he seems to be a mid ground between excalibur and loki too so it could work out.

 

By "Ash looks better than Loki" are you referring to their looks or their stats? If it is the former I disagree (that's how opinions work) if it is the latter I'll agree only if I am looking at their stats from the eyes of a newbie.

 

The whole point of Loki is that it's for experienced players. In the hands of someone new to the game who doesn't have a good weapon nor a good idea of what powers do and what situations they're useful in? Yeah, Loki's not fitting at all.

 

That's where learning comes into play. Any newbie who can learn to play a Loki (without spamming 2) is highly likely to go on to become a strong player. They also learn to use their weapons because they aren't able to press a button and wipe a room.

 

loki is terrible early on when you have vitality rank 2 etc. they all are. if i hadn't have bought platinum and a valkyr i'd have probably quit.

 

excalibur and loki have the most boring abilities for a newby player. high level utility matters little when a lvl 3 corpus can kill you with blind fire and all you have is an inept decoy that does nothing or a suicide charge into more lasers

 

Why does Vitality matter? Don't tell me you're one of those people who puts health and shield mods on his Loki...

Boring? I disagree. Loki was my starter and I found his moveset fascinating, primarily because his general lack of direct damage forced me to think and his low health and shields prevented me from just acting like a turret. Decoy is only inept if the player is. A newbie should be able to quickly figure out what 'Radial Disarm' does and how that would affect their gameplay.

 

 

that's part of the issue. when a newcomer starts he's most definitely not an advanced player. and even if you are some chance of an advanced player. the reward does not match the difficulty of play early game loki. newcomers need to feel power from their frames to keep playing them.

i also agree with giving em a decent choice of weapons to start with to push through early levels

and at no point i said loki was a bad frame. its just a bad starting frame. I freaking love loki to bits. he's just more suited to end game/higher lvl play. not using him for lvl 10 grineer.

also if advanced players really wanted to use loki. they will farm for them. that also being said, if you want to give them that option. loki should to moved to a lower lvl planet

 

I actually think Loki's description should be changed. It shouldn't say he is just for advanced players, it should also point out that he tends to either turn newbies into advanced players or into Loki haters. There aren't very many frames that will force you to play smarter, most of the frames are incredibly forgiving. Even Loki can be if you build him for max duration on invisibility. The biggest difference here is that a new player wouldn't have access to the mods needed for that. Which forces them to adapt or be crushed.

 

TL;DR- Replacing Loki with another power-spamming, low-risk high-reward frame would not help new players at all. Making Ash a starter is almost as bad as making Rhino a starter.

Edited March 2, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Tainted_Fox]

i like your thought on. forcing loki's to play better. sort of. and i most definitely agree that his description should be changed

my only issue is i still learned what i needed to learn i didnt pick loki so i still became a strong player. i picked Excalibur to learn the core gameplay.
my other issue is you have to make good plays to utilize loki. which means you can't casually grind and pace yourself like the other frames can

i actually kid you not. rhino would be a legit starting frame. because rhino gets old quickly and would encourage me to find a better frame
also. whats wrong with spamming frames? if people like that play style then they should play that style. there are enough brick walls in the game to tell them they should change their style of play.

[SquirmyBurrito]

i like your thought on. forcing loki's to play better. sort of. and i most definitely agree that his description should be changed

my only issue is i still learned what i needed to learn i didnt pick loki so i still became a strong player. i picked Excalibur to learn the core gameplay.

my other issue is you have to make good plays to utilize loki. which means you can't casually grind and pace yourself like the other frames can

i actually kid you not. rhino would be a legit starting frame. because rhino gets old quickly and would encourage me to find a better frame

also. whats wrong with spamming frames? if people like that play style then they should play that style. there are enough brick walls in the game to tell them they should change their style of play.

 

Loki can be used to learn the core gameplay mechanics as well.

Actually, once you get used to him you no longer have to actively think about how to tackle a situation. It should just come naturally.

 

No, I'm going to have to completely disagree with you. Rhino tends to churn out spammers like there's no tomorrow. The problem with spammers is that they tend to spam in place of everything. Need to kill enemies? Stomp. Need to survive a bunch of bullets? Iron Skin. Need to get across this gap that was totally meant to be parkour'd across? Rhino Charge. People who play like that will eventually hit a brick wall when their stomps fail to kill and they haven't learned to use their weapons properly. People who play like that will eventually hit a brick wall when the enemies do enough damage to constantly shred their Iron Skin and they haven't learned to take cover properly. Once they hit this wall they have to either make one hell of a change to their playstyle, or stick to content which allows them to continue on like this. Instilling bad habits in new players is not a good thing, and Rhino is the king of bad habits.

 

Disclamer: I am not saying all Rhino players are bad. Just that a lot of them are.

 

One of the important things about starting characters is that they need to be similar enough to allow you to succeed and varied enough to allow for different experiences. Rhino and Ash are not different enough from Excalibur to allow for this variance.

[WrothBog]

the frame does not encourage spamming. that mindset exists prior to even installing the game.

 

it's human nature to seek the path of least resistance, those of us against spammy moves are going against the grain. the mindset to take something less efficient or desirable and hone that into something unique is not a common mindset. 

 

so blaming people getting a rhino warframe early on for the novakids is ludicrous. if you nerf nova they'll find something else to spam. if it's easier they'll do it.

 

and yeah i prefer ash's design over loki's, all the starter frames look bland. the designers have clearly gotten better as time has worn on. the initial run of frames are essentially just the same bodies with some proportions moved around and some groves cut in using z-brush. the latest frames are unique and interesting especially zephyr and oberon with clever use of darker areas being used to make the legs of a warframe look like those of a deer or a bird.

 

the point about vitality was lost on you, but new players don't have mods to equip to a frame, they don't have potato's, they dont have credits, they likely haven't chosen to spend money on platinum yet. they couldn't possibly learn ability spam because they'll run out of energy in two uses.

 

you're comparing advanced play with forma'd and potato'd rank 30 loki, try your version of advanced play with a factory fresh loki and no mods. it's not comparable.

[Traeyze]

I think Ash is a reasonable choice for a new frame.

 

His moveset has some offensive options but they are still limited and force you to play clever:

Shuriken is okay damage early on but hits too few targets to allow for Ash to go in and toss away. In fact spamming the move, particularly with a lower Efficiency build, will teach you exactly what happens when you get spam happy and caught with your pants down. On top of that the shuriken can be blocked by walls and other players, making it a move to use sparingly anyway.
Compare this to Pull which has an insane AoE and Slash Dash which is a dash/clutch attack, it is plenty different.

Smoke Bomb has less clock time than Loki's and has that initial attack, making it more of a 'S#&$ let's get out of here' move than 'hide in invisible mode' attack. Because you have less freedom with it you need to be careful with usage and that is a good mentality to have.

Teleport is Teleport.

Blade Storm is one of those ultimates that you actually have to aim and think about in terms of usage. It looks pretty cool and although it lacks the area spam of Crush or Radial it makes up for it with damage. I think it is a good ulti because it means you don't just run into a room and smash the 4 key until things are dead, you actually have to think about it.

Early on Ash will seem like a really viable frame just because the base damage of a lot of his attacks is pretty okay. However, due to their limited AoE or targets they have to be used with a bit of strategy. It means Ash can have scenarios at early game of taking down heavy Grineer without unloading seven thousand bullets at it but also has to be careful of being hit because he will shatter easily as opposed to Loki where you can feel woefully underpowered until your weaponry catches up.

Ash doesn't scale that well as a frame but by the same token he is also one that can function pretty well with a basic setup. In time you will note the frustrations of his purely damage based abilities and wish for a frame with more utility, and then the other frame choices will stand out. I'd imagine that if you were moving from Ash to Loki you'd appreciate it a lot more than vice versa.

He would stand as a frame that had interesting but rewarding early game attack options but that was still very brittle. I don't see how that would leave players worse off, I imagine it would teach them everything they needed just as well as any frame.

As for Rhino if anything he needs to be hidden behind a much higher wall. Mag too, probably.

 

[Monolake]

so instead of having a really good frame, you would rather they have a bad one?

cool.

You dont understand the issue: Loki is bad as a starting frame, he needs skill(understanding of the game) and rare mods to be good, new players have neither. They only suffer due to Loki being squishy and having no damage skills.

Ash on the other hand is perfect for early game, has decent damage abilities to compensate for poor starting weapons and high stats to compensate for new players mistakes(maybe too high even). 

Edited March 2, 2014 by Monolake

[Yaerion]

Agreed with OP. +1ed.

[Tainted_Fox]

Loki can be used to learn the core gameplay mechanics as well.

Actually, once you get used to him you no longer have to actively think about how to tackle a situation. It should just come naturally.

 

No, I'm going to have to completely disagree with you. Rhino tends to churn out spammers like there's no tomorrow. The problem with spammers is that they tend to spam in place of everything. Need to kill enemies? Stomp. Need to survive a bunch of bullets? Iron Skin. Need to get across this gap that was totally meant to be parkour'd across? Rhino Charge. People who play like that will eventually hit a brick wall when their stomps fail to kill and they haven't learned to use their weapons properly. People who play like that will eventually hit a brick wall when the enemies do enough damage to constantly shred their Iron Skin and they haven't learned to take cover properly. Once they hit this wall they have to either make one hell of a change to their playstyle, or stick to content which allows them to continue on like this. Instilling bad habits in new players is not a good thing, and Rhino is the king of bad habits.

 

Disclamer: I am not saying all Rhino players are bad. Just that a lot of them are.

 

One of the important things about starting characters is that they need to be similar enough to allow you to succeed and varied enough to allow for different experiences. Rhino and Ash are not different enough from Excalibur to allow for this variance.

that's quite true. the strategy to kill stuff with ash isn't that much different to Excalibur or Mag

maybe Banshee would be better.

Edit: not only that. but banshee would promote using your weapons

Edited March 2, 2014 by Tainted_Fox

[Zephyric_Reaper]

+1 

 

Loki is very mod dependant, needs rare mods, has low stats and his powers are relatively hard to use. 

Volt should still be a starter, not Loki. 

[Othergrunty]

As much as i loved starting out with Loki, i admit that i stuck to him because i had a lot of patience and was okay with not having direct damage dealing abilities.

Other starters who want an "Infiltrator" type character might quickly quit or reroll because of dying too often with Loki or not making as many kills as the Mag and Excalibur users.

So Ash actualy makes sense as an early stepping stone/crutch character.

 

So overall OP's suggestion has a point.

 

The only problem i see with it, is that Mag becomes the only starter frame that can keep up into end level.

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

The only problem i see with it, is that Mag becomes the only starter frame that can keep up into end level.

not quite true, radial disarm, decoy and a box can turn any emeny into a sitting duck, invisibility is almost like godmode if used correctly