Remove Loki As A Starting Frame

[SquirmyBurrito]

the frame does not encourage spamming. that mindset exists prior to even installing the game.

 

it's human nature to seek the path of least resistance, those of us against spammy moves are going against the grain. the mindset to take something less efficient or desirable and hone that into something unique is not a common mindset. 

 

so blaming people getting a rhino warframe early on for the novakids is ludicrous. if you nerf nova they'll find something else to spam. if it's easier they'll do it.

 

and yeah i prefer ash's design over loki's, all the starter frames look bland. the designers have clearly gotten better as time has worn on. the initial run of frames are essentially just the same bodies with some proportions moved around and some groves cut in using z-brush. the latest frames are unique and interesting especially zephyr and oberon with clever use of darker areas being used to make the legs of a warframe look like those of a deer or a bird.

 

the point about vitality was lost on you, but new players don't have mods to equip to a frame, they don't have potato's, they dont have credits, they likely haven't chosen to spend money on platinum yet. they couldn't possibly learn ability spam because they'll run out of energy in two uses.

 

you're comparing advanced play with forma'd and potato'd rank 30 loki, try your version of advanced play with a factory fresh loki and no mods. it's not comparable.

 

So the presence and ease of use of highly spammable abilities does not encourage spamming?

 

Human nature also seeks adrenaline rushes and entertaining experiences. Many would argue that continuously pressing 4 is not entertaining (but not everyone would agree). In gaming not spamming is quite common. 

 

I never mentioned Nova, you did. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

I wont deny that the newer (as in only the most recent four) have had much more detailed designs than the older frames. But Ash (IMO) is not detailed. You can like him all you want, I have no problem with different opinions. But claiming he is better designed and unique is a little much. The guy is wearing a skin-tight leotard, has a headcrab on his head, and has scaly plates on his arm. Loki looks nothing like Excalibur. Excalibur is symmetrical, Loki is not.

 

No, your 'point' just made no sense. If you want to get your point across you must make sure you are clear. 

 

HAHAHAHAHA, maybe you shouldn't go putting your foot in your mouth like that. I have TWO Lokis, I DID play a factory fresh Loki with zero mods while still having my advanced playstyle. It was compatible. Loki isn't nearly as mod dependent as people make him out to be. I can (and did) play my second Loki without abilities. That was his entire purpose. I will probably end up leaving an ability slot for Decoy though. And Loki doesn't actually need Forma. The only reason a player would need to use it is if they decided to maximize him, and even then they'd only need ONE. How many other frames can be max'd with only one forma?

 

that's quite true. the strategy to kill stuff with ash isn't that much different to Excalibur or Mag

maybe Banshee would be better.

Edit: not only that. but banshee would promote using your weapons

 

Yeah, if Loki HAD to be scrapped Banshee would be a good replacement. 

[Othergrunty]

not quite true, radial disarm, decoy and a box can turn any emeny into a sitting duck, invisibility is almost like godmode if used correctly

 

I meant if Loki would be replaced with Ash.

 

Of course Loki can keep up into end game. His powers do no damage, so they are completely independent from power strength mods or armor rating of enemies.

[Sokina]

100% agreed.

 

My friend started off with a Loki a month or two ago. He figured it'd be a fun stealth frame. He thought it'd be most like a "Ninja." He was immediately discouraged because of Loki's lack of direct damage abilities. (Herp derp I know invisibility boosts melee damage. That's not direct.) The end result was him getting discouraged and quitting the game for a while. He eventually came back because I agreed to help him get a frame that wasn't pretty awful for beginners.

 

Let's look at the abilities of Loki in regards to a Beginner. Hardly any good mods, good weapons, good anything.

 

Decoy: Decent. Draws fire away from you, so you can, uh. Shoot them more. No direct damage. Reliant on your weapons to do damage.

 

Invisible: Only real useful ability. Go invisible, melee and shoot to your heart's content. Cool. No direct damage, reliant on weapons to do damage. 

 

Switch Teleport: A beginner will generally not need to use this skill most of the time. (Herp derp I have a Loki, I know how to effectively use it. A beginner might not.)

 

Radial Disarm: "Oh, cool, I'll make all the enemies nearby use melee forever." Except most of the early game is bullet fights, and having a bunch of enemies suddenly charging a beginner with melee, is often enough to overwhelm them if they disarm enough. I've seen it happen plenty of times.

 

A beginner frame that doesn't have direct damage abilities and more or less relies on invisibility is bad. I don't want beginners more or less forced into using invisibility to get by. Then they rely on it. And honestly, we shouldn't really be teaching new Loki players that they should use invisibility and nothing else. That's, in the end, what a lot of beginner Lokis do. I think a starter frame should have a mix of damage, CC, and situational / support abilities. That way a new player is eased into the knowledge that a frame can serve more than one purpose. 

 

Having a starter with no direct damage abilities is probably not a good idea. A lot of Loki's skills are very situational and might confuse a new player who doesn't necessarily know how to combine them. Would replace Loki with Ash as a starter. Know quite a bit of people who started with Loki, expecting it to be like Ash. Then told them Ash existed and they wanted Ash.

 

Don't know why people are getting offended though. I mean, in essence, we're talking about people who haven't even started the game yet. People who see the game referencing "Ninjas in space" should probably get a ninja starter. Not some guy that lays boring Decoys and can swap himself with an enemy, which more often than not is completely pointless. And Disarm which, the last thing a new player would want, is to get beat to death by stunsticks. Again, we're talking about new players. I don't really need to hear "it makes them a better player" if they choose Loki. Loki's a one trick pony, especially to a beginner. They learn to use invisibility. Congrats! They're a better player! Oh wait...

 

My friend made the mistake of choosing Loki and it almost killed his interest in the game, compared to Ember, Frost, and most of the other frames, new Loki players probably feel pretty useless in comparison. At least give them Ash. It'd probably make them more interested in a game about Space Ninjas if they could actually be a ninja, and not some guy that throws boring Decoys around.

 

TL:DR: Loki's abilities don't do direct damage. Decoy, Switch Teleport, and Disarm are situational. Invisibility is the only one that directly helps offensive capabilities, and it doesn't even do damage. It simply makes them invisible ( which is pretty much invincibility) and then they mash melee. He doesn't need to be a starter. Ash should replace it. 

 

Inb4 Loki fanboys rage because the guys who aren't even playing the game yet might find Loki too complex as opposed to Ash.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Sokina

[LukeAura]

I'd shudder to try and play Loki now instead of back in D1.0 and Mod Drops 1.0 when I started. 
The newplayer experience seems so much worse now I don't even think feedback from then is even relevant any more. 

Banshee is a nice option but I feel since we already have Mag as a support/Mage style having the two of them at the same time is a little redundant. 

Excalibur is our standard warrior, 
Mag is our mage/cleric 
Loki is our stealth character
Pretty much like every mmo. Ash is the most logical replacement in that regard, unless of course that is we get a fixed and reworked Banshee at some point in which she becomes a frame actually worthy of the 'stealth' moniker. 

[SquirmyBurrito]

100% agreed.

 

My friend started off with a Loki a month or two ago. He figured it'd be a fun stealth frame. He thought it'd be most like a "Ninja." He was immediately discouraged because of Loki's lack of direct damage abilities. (Herp derp I know invisibility boosts melee damage. That's not direct.) The end result was him getting discouraged and quitting the game for a while. He eventually came back because I agreed to help him get a frame that wasn't pretty awful for beginners.

 

Let's look at the abilities of Loki in regards to a Beginner. Hardly any good mods, good weapons, good anything.

 

Decoy: Decent. Draws fire away from you, so you can, uh. Shoot them more. No direct damage. Reliant on your weapons to do damage.

 

Invisible: Only real useful ability. Go invisible, melee and shoot to your heart's content. Cool. No direct damage, reliant on weapons to do damage. 

 

Switch Teleport: A beginner will generally not need to use this skill most of the time. (Herp derp I have a Loki, I know how to effectively use it. A beginner might not.)

 

Radial Disarm: "Oh, cool, I'll make all the enemies nearby use melee forever." Except most of the early game is bullet fights, and having a bunch of enemies suddenly charging a beginner with melee, is often enough to overwhelm them if they disarm enough. I've seen it happen plenty of times.

 

A beginner frame that doesn't have direct damage abilities and more or less relies on invisibility is bad. I don't want beginners more or less forced into using invisibility to get by. Then they rely on it. And honestly, we shouldn't really be teaching new Loki players that they should use invisibility and nothing else. That's, in the end, what a lot of beginner Lokis do. I think a starter frame should have a mix of damage, CC, and situational / support abilities. That way a new player is eased into the knowledge that a frame can serve more than one purpose. 

 

Having a starter with no direct damage abilities is probably not a good idea. A lot of Loki's skills are very situational and might confuse a new player who doesn't necessarily know how to combine them. Would replace Loki with Ash as a starter. Know quite a bit of people who started with Loki, expecting it to be like Ash. Then told them Ash existed and they wanted Ash.

 

Don't know why people are getting offended though. I mean, in essence, we're talking about people who haven't even started the game yet. People who see the game referencing "Ninjas in space" should probably get a ninja starter. Not some guy that lays boring Decoys and can swap himself with an enemy, which more often than not is completely pointless. And Disarm which, the last thing a new player would want, is to get beat to death by stunsticks. Again, we're talking about new players. I don't really need to hear "it makes them a better player" if they choose Loki. Loki's a one trick pony, especially to a beginner. They learn to use invisibility. Congrats! They're a better player! Oh wait...

 

My friend made the mistake of choosing Loki and it almost killed his interest in the game, compared to Ember, Frost, and most of the other frames, new Loki players probably feel pretty useless in comparison. At least give them Ash. It'd probably make them more interested in a game about Space Ninjas if they could actually be a ninja, and not some guy that throws boring Decoys around.

 

1. It clearly states in his description "Desired by advanced players". Maybe DE needs to put the advanced players bit in bold flashing font. If your friend chose Loki despite not being an advanced player he was at fault. 

2. Loki isn't 'pretty awful for beginners'. You people need to stop saying this as if it is true across the board. Are you forgetting that some of us started with Loki and are better because of it? I started with him and (unlike your friend) I stuck with him. I learned to avoid damage. Your friend falls into one of the categories I already indicated.

 

Not having a direct damage ability is NOT a con. Stop treating it like one.

 

Decoy, godly if the player bothers to read the description and use it like it says. If enemies aren't shooting at you, your low health and shields do not matter.

 

Invisible is not his only useful ability. Even from the position of a beginner that isn't true. I was a beginner once and I was not nearly that stupid. And I started back when Loki was being called bad and most people seemed to be of the opinion that Ash>Loki. So it's not like I was told how to use him by more advanced players, I had to figure it out. Good thing the game practically spells it out for you.

 

I agree, will most likely not productively use this ability. Same goes for Ash's teleport.

 

How is a player going to get overwhelmed? Are they not intelligent enough to kite enemies? Are they unaware that you can walk fast enough to avoid enemies? Do they not know that warframe has a sprint key?

 

It doesn't rely on invisibility. If you're that ignorant do not bother speaking about Loki. Your false information does nothing but poison the minds of any newbie who stumbles upon your post. Not every new player uses Invisibility as a crutch. A starter frame does not need damage. IMO the starters should consist of Damage, CC/Tank, and Utility/Support that way players are getting very different choices at the start. 

 

On the flip side of this argument, a frame that has direct damage abilities tends to make new players feel reliant on those abilities for damage. They learn to spam where they could/should have saved the energy and used their weapon instead. A player that relies almost exclusively on their damage abilities is no better than a player who relies almost exclusively on invisibility.

 

The only situational abilities that Loki has are Switch Teleport and Radial Disarm. Unlike Switch Teleport, Radial Disarm is only unnecessary/useless when fighting infested. I know quite a bit of people who started with Loki and loved him. You know people, I know people.

 

People are probably getting offended because you are ignorantly claiming that Loki is a one trick pony "Loki's a one trick pony, especially to a beginner" <--direct quote. 

 

Maybe you should tell your friend to learn to read and stop TL;DR'ing a two sentence description. I was a new Loki player and didn't feel useless. Did you start with Loki? I ask because you're making an awful lot of claims that you could only know if you experienced it. Normally I wouldn't bother but you claims do not line up with my experiences. You think Loki is boring, I think Ash is boring.

[(PSN)RizenZero]

I used Loki as my starting frame and I loved him.  Admittedly it did make me into a better player.  I have 5 frames now which are Rhino, Saryn, Nova, Vauban, and (of course) Loki.  I like them all for different reasons but in the end it was Loki that helped me learn to survive the toughest of situations.  I think he's perfect for beginners.  

 

He's probably the reason I kept coming back.  It only made me want to get better and better.

[Monolake]

 

1. It clearly states in his description "Desired by advanced players". Maybe DE needs to put the advanced players bit in bold flashing font. If your friend chose Loki despite not being an advanced player he was at fault. 

2. Loki isn't 'pretty awful for beginners'. You people need to stop saying this as if it is true across the board. Are you forgetting that some of us started with Loki and are better because of it? I started with him and (unlike your friend) I stuck with him. I learned to avoid damage. Your friend falls into one of the categories I already indicated.

 

Not having a direct damage ability is NOT a con. Stop treating it like one.

 

...

 

Maybe DE should actually leave it to advanced players and give noobs something less squishy and mana-dependant instead. 

With how bad weapons and mods situation is for beginners the damage abilities help big time, I remember running 15-20 min survivals purely on Slash dash, since crapton-MK1 with crit mods stops to kill anyhting past lvl5.

 

Its not about discussing Loki abilities, its about new players suffering with him. Take into the account that the game teaches you nothing. Only 1 out of 10 Lokis uses decoy and one out of 20 Excalibuts uses Blind, instead facetanking all the damage and dying.

 New players will be becoming better when DE makes missions that teach them gameplay mechanics and abilities, now its more like throwing babies into the pond - sink or swim. Starting Loki only makes this dire situation worse. Not every one has skills from other games and dedication like you had.

[Lers]

@SquirmyBurrito: while what you are saying is mostly correct... you are still kind of missing a point. Loki is most certainly valid, if a bit difficult to play at start. Skill and patiance can and will offset his shortcommings, and will scale well into late game.

 

However. If someone picks Loki for any reason, in spite of the "for advanced players" tidbit and then deems him tedious/boring/weak... what choices does he face? Start a new account to grab another frame? Man up and grind until he can craft another frame? Or just quit the game altogether?

 

While this isn't a question posed solely to Loki players, it is probably the most prevelant to them, due to the lack of more... direct powers misleadingly hinting at him being the weakest of the 3.

 

In the end it's not about skill, nor about frames being weaker than others. It's about keeping the most players interested, for as long as possible. As it currently stands a new player is stuck with his chosen frame, until crafting (or platinum) options open up to them... with the best alternative being a second account. Until that gets somehow adressed, Loki is the biggest pitfall of the 3 starters for a lot of people that in worst case scenario quit the game altogether.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Maybe DE should actually leave it to advanced players and give noobs something less squishy and mana-dependant instead. 

With how bad weapons and mods situation is for beginners the damage abilities help big time, I remember running 15-20 min survivals purely on Slash dash, since crapton-MK1 with crit mods stops to kill anyhting past lvl5.

 

Its not about discussing Loki abilities, its about new players suffering with him. Take into the account that the game teaches you nothing. Only 1 out of 10 Lokis uses decoy and one out of 20 Excalibuts uses Blind, instead facetanking all the damage and dying.

 New players will be becoming better when DE makes missions that teach them gameplay mechanics and abilities, now its more like throwing babies into the pond - sink or swim. Starting Loki only makes this dire situation worse. Not every one has skills from other games and dedication like you had.

 

No, I'd rather Loki be kept. If I start another account I (as an advanced player) would like to have the option to choose that hard yet easy frame at the beginning.  All the starter frames are 'mana-dependant' whether that be for direct damage or for survivability. Your numbers (probably pulled randomly out of the air) seem pretty far off. That or I only get put in games with the good Loki players. I was actually in game with a relatively new Loki player the other day. He/She had a Paris a Lato and a Skana. That player was actually doing pretty well. The biggest difference in the sink or swim situation is that a Loki that finds the life preserver (Invisibility spam) will still come out with something good (learning to use his/her weapons. That isn't necessarily true of a frame that can get by via power spam (for damage).

 

@SquirmyBurrito: while what you are saying is mostly correct... you are still kind of missing a point. Loki is most certainly valid, if a bit difficult to play at start. Skill and patiance can and will offset his shortcommings, and will scale well into late game.

 

However. If someone picks Loki for any reason, in spite of the "for advanced players" tidbit and then deems him tedious/boring/weak... what choices does he face? Start a new account to grab another frame? Man up and grind until he can craft another frame? Or just quit the game altogether?

 

While this isn't a question posed solely to Loki players, it is probably the most prevelant to them, due to the lack of more... direct powers misleadingly hinting at him being the weakest of the 3.

 

In the end it's not about skill, nor about frames being weaker than others. It's about keeping the most players interested, for as long as possible. As it currently stands a new player is stuck with his chosen frame, until crafting (or platinum) options open up to them... with the best alternative being a second account. Until that gets somehow adressed, Loki is the biggest pitfall of the 3 starters for a lot of people that in worst case scenario quit the game altogether.

 

I understand this, but as others have said most games offer players the choice of easy, medium, or hard at the start of the game. Why should Loki be scrapped when a simple description re-write could make the difference. Expanding on that idea, DE should also force new players to sit through a brief transmission where Lotus (or whoever) reads their descriptions out loud. That way players are less likely to just TL;DR it. They should also be given the option to play through the tutorial multiple times with each of the starter frames so they can make a more informed decision. Playing through the tut as Excal and then being offered the choice of three frames (two of which you'd have no idea about) tends to make players either just go with Excal or take a leap of faith. Choosing based on aesthetics and/or your interpretation of their brief description is definitely not the way to go. Other games can get away with this because they tend to have pretty standard classes that speak for themselves. An Archer's role is pretty obvious.

 

I like the story element to the tutorial, but I think it should be scrapped in favor of something more akin to choosing your frame from a shop. You go in, you look through the (limited) selection, maybe try it on, and make an informed decision. This might not fit with the lore though and I am nigh-clueless when it comes to things like that.

Off topic:

Are we beings in suits? Implying we can take off these suits and put on others. Or is the suit part of our identity (so having multiple frames is akin to having multiple different bodies that you can take over). If it is the former my idea would work nicely, if not... my idea falls pretty short. 

[Seasonsofclarity]

+1 

 

Loki is very mod dependant, needs rare mods, has low stats and his powers are relatively hard to use. 

Volt should still be a starter, not Loki. 

So, this should be cleared up.

 

Volt was a starter frame, back towards the beginning.  It was Excalibur, Volt, Loki.

 

And I still picked Loki.  No regrets.

[Lers]

 

*snip*

They should also be given the option to play through the tutorial multiple times with each of the starter frames so they can make a more informed decision.

 

Yes this would be another ideal outcome. Loki is a decent choice, but not really what most people expect by that short description... well not until fully modded anyway. Makes him a niche choice, one that should probably not be picked unless the player knows what it will entail.

 

By this reasoning though i'd still vote for him to be replaced by Ash. Albeit i have to admit that I'd only choose this option to appeal to a greater mass of starting players with at least one ninja'ish frame and some fallback damage abilities. Not my personal choice as a gamer, but seems more logical from a business standpoint. He has some starter friendly crutch abilities, while not scaling all too well into higher levels, thus forcing a switch at mid-high levels with minimal chance of disheartening players at lower levels.

 

TL;DR I respectfully agree to disagree.

[-CM-Crazy]

The real question is, why is an advance frame a starting frame? It says for advance players but when people start the game they are far from advance. I say bring back volt

[Seasonsofclarity]

The real question is, why is an advance frame a starting frame? It says for advance players but when people start the game they are far from advance. I say bring back volt

Advanced = skilled at games of this style.

 

And again, Mag replaced Volt.  Volt wouldn't come back to replace Mag.

 

The three starter frames are supposed to represent difficulty tiers of playstyles.  Volt fought with Excalibur in it's playstyle (combative/direct).  So it was replaced with Mag (supportive/direct).

[Sidathe]

TL;DR- Replacing Loki with another power-spamming, low-risk high-reward frame would not help new players at all. Making Ash a starter is almost as bad as making Rhino a starter.

Would Oberon be moderately more suitable as a starter? I don't care if Loki is or isn't (Fun &amp;#&#33; frame. Run around, stripping folks of weapons and pounding them with a giant sword. lol) But yeah, Oberon as a starter, gives players a good healing type to pick at the start that's not as likely to be as game-breaking as Trinity can get.

[Tainted_Fox]

Would Oberon be moderately more suitable as a starter? I don't care if Loki is or isn't (Fun &amp;#&#33; frame. Run around, stripping folks of weapons and pounding them with a giant sword. lol) But yeah, Oberon as a starter, gives players a good healing type to pick at the start that's not as likely to be as game-breaking as Trinity can get.

not any time soon. Oberon just came out. DE would like to at least make some money off it before they consider the idea. thats from a business standpoint

as for a starter. he would be good to start. buti i dont think his game play does not stand out enough to be considered different from the the current 3 frames

Edited March 3, 2014 by Tainted_Fox

[SquirmyBurrito]

Would Oberon be moderately more suitable as a starter? I don't care if Loki is or isn't (Fun &amp;#&#33; frame. Run around, stripping folks of weapons and pounding them with a giant sword. lol) But yeah, Oberon as a starter, gives players a good healing type to pick at the start that's not as likely to be as game-breaking as Trinity can get.

 

Actually... yeah, Obi-Ron would be a pretty good starter frame. I wouldn't want to see him replace Loki, but he could (sorta) work. Primarily because he isn't all that good for higher level gameplay and he fills a role (partially) that isn't touched by the other two. My biggest problem with him is that he would still likely promote ult spamming in the newer players. Maybe DE should add him as a fourth choice. Banshee is probably the ideal frame for replacing Loki as even her ult requires some degree of planning before use.

 

not any time soon. Oberon just came out. DE would like to at least make some money off it before they consider the idea. thats from a business standpoint

as for a starter. he would be good to start. buti i dont think his game play does not stand out enough to be considered different from the the current 3 frames

 

Obi isn't nearly hard enough to acquire to fill the role of cash cow. I doubt DE is making much money off him now.

Edited March 3, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[LazyKnight]

Remove Loki as a starting frame. and replace it with ash to fill the stealthy game play role

Personally, I think Ember or Ash would be good replacement option. Ember is useable without top end mods, and at least by having a decent set of offensive powers it would let new player make up for the Mk1.Braton.

[Seasonsofclarity]

Personally, I think Ember or Ash would be good replacement option. Ember is useable without top end mods, and at least by having a decent set of offensive powers it would let new player make up for the Mk1.Braton.

Ember is another direct damage frame.  It wouldn't replace Loki, an indirect support frame.

 

Believe it or not, your starter frame is meant to teach you roles.

[fatpig84]

I like ze Loki as much as the other loki master race fellas.

 

 

 

But I agree. He should not be a starter frame. 

Ash will fit the bill closer.

 

Also in comparison, Ash is not that far off from Loki.

 

For one, most new players won't be able to rely on Ash's crappy 4 to actually nuke and survive. 

They will either use Shuriken spam to get themselves out of some bad situations or smoke screen and run for it.

 

Smokescreen is also more forgiving since it cost only 35 Energy to use as well.

But the skill can be reworked a little better.

 

Like Rank 0 = 5 seconds

Each extra rank adds 1 second.

Edited March 3, 2014 by fatpig84

[BlueSilkMetallic]

picked loki as starter and it was good.

love loki

 

good choice

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

You know, I'll be pretty frank. I never understood why Loki is called "difficult to learn/play".

 

I started with Loki because my friends started with Excalibur and Mag.

 

At low levels, Loki was honestly pretty simple. "Am I in danger of losing my shields before I can get to cover?" Press 2. "Do I want to draw aggro away from something?" Press 1. "Are all these guns wielding mobs too much for my team?" Press 4.

 

And lordy if it's an infested mobile defense or something... lol. I'd literally just sit in invisibility near the terminal and spam my Skana/Cronus all day, and with the sheer number of mobs that came through usually guaranteed my energy back or more by the time invisibility wore off. I'd always joke over VOIP "ADVANCED GAMEPLAY" as I spammed my melee.

 

I mean sure, there's a more to Loki than that and these are low level strategies, and of course Loki really benefits a ton from having the proper mods. But really don't think that there is anything hard about playing him as a newbie.

 

That said, I have to agree with the sentiment that Ash would be a superior starter stealth frame over Loki. Direct damage powers, bit more straightforward. Plus he certainly gives off a much more ninja vibe than Loki does, and after all, isn't being a space ninja supposed to be a major hook of this game?

[Darkmoone1]

so instead of having a really good frame, you would rather they have a bad one?

cool.

We shouldn't really have bad frames in the first place if balancing the frames went along faster and more effectively. =/

 

But the point is that Loki players will have a bad time playing this game until they find some good mods. They need to rely on weapon damage to actually kill and considering those starting weapons.....yeah not the best around. They need mods like serration and maybe ammo extension mods to fight and continue fighting. They need duration and a decent amount of fusion cores to make use of invisibility. Not to mention they have no potatoes and have to level up a Loki a fair amount to get Radial disarm. 

 

All of this is overwhelming for a new player. 

[LazyKnight]

Ember is another direct damage frame.  It wouldn't replace Loki, an indirect support frame.

 

Believe it or not, your starter frame is meant to teach you roles.

Then they need to give players something that can kill NPC. The Mk1.Braton is worthless without a 100% headshots scored. 

 

The other frame I would have said would have been Nyx, I just doubt it would be a popular option. I just was thinking Ember or Nyx, because both are older warframes that are not seen as underpowered or overpowered. Nyx is a crowd controller, so can be classified as indirect support.

 

Another thing, there is no functional stealth mechanic, and it is pointless to have a starter frame being stealth oriented. There is no point in a player using stealth, period; and even if there was, a new player does not have the mods or weapon to use it effectively.

Edited March 3, 2014 by LazyKnight

[SquirmyBurrito]

We shouldn't really have bad frames in the first place if balancing the frames went along faster and more effectively. =/

 

But the point is that Loki players will have a bad time playing this game until they find some good mods. They need to rely on weapon damage to actually kill and considering those starting weapons.....yeah not the best around. They need mods like serration and maybe ammo extension mods to fight and continue fighting. They need duration and a decent amount of fusion cores to make use of invisibility. Not to mention they have no potatoes and have to level up a Loki a fair amount to get Radial disarm. 

 

All of this is overwhelming for a new player. 

 

That is incorrect. I had no such trouble. The starting weapons are bad, yes we all know this. BUT they work when used on the lower (read: first planet) missions. If a new player doesn't care about mastery rank they could sell their MK1 for the Braton as soon as it is possible. The Lato isn't actually that bad in lower missions and the skana is usable (especially when you pick Loki as your starter). This idea that Loki is heavily mod dependent is absolute BS. He relies on mods just as much as every other frame. New players will get a reactor rather quickly. Back when I was leveling my first Loki potatos were pretty scarce. But now it's damn near raining them (reactors, catalysts are a little more rare). I've gotten to the point where I ignore reactor alerts just because I have more than I need (I have eight leftover, six if I subtract two for the Mag Prime and reg. Frost I have just sitting in the foundry).

 

Invisibility does not take much to level, and rare fusion cores are extremely easy to get now. Invisibility's base duration (at max rank) is twelve seconds, that is MORE than enough to be useful. You don't actually need added duration mods for it to be useful. I even have a build with maxed fleeting expertise on. The only thing it prevents me from doing is recklessly combat reviving in the middle of a crowd. So I compensate by using Radial Disarm+Decoy to direct them elsewhere.

 

Loki doesn't NEED mods, he doesn't NEED a good weapon, he doesn't NEED a potato. What he NEEDS is a player with enough common sense/gaming sense to figure out what works well and what doesn't. If invisibility spam is all you do you will think you NEED mods and a good weapon.

On balancing Ash: 

 

His biggest problem is that he is supposed to be the Direct Damage-Loki. That just doesn't work. To make Ash more useful they're going to have to completely scrap this little rivalry that the two have going on. Take away Ash's invisibility and give him something else instead. That would be the first step. The next step would be to inject utility into his two direct damage abilities. Yeah yeah I know Bladestorm gives you invulnerability, but I'm talking about utility that can work both in team and solo situations.

 

[DuWryght]

Loki as a starter frame was the only reason I picked up this game. Ash doesn't compare with him or any other frame. I would rather have Saryn as a starter over Ash. She has good stats and is a mix of Loki and Ash.

 

If you swapped out Loki as a starter frame, I would think Saryn would be a good substitute.