An Opinion On Invincibility Powers

[fatpig84]

I don't agree in removing invulnerability powers.

 

But I can agree to hard capping Blessing invincibility duration so it cannot be extended or decreased.

[Phoenix86]

Blessing just needs a RANGE to become way more balanced.

 

Snow Globe needed to be % based, absorbing X% of the dmg that goes through it and without an hard cap

 

But like Volt said in his thread, i gave up aswell trying to post stuff to help the balance... it's like shouting in a windstorm

[fatpig84]

Blessing just needs a RANGE to become way more balanced.

 

Snow Globe needed to be % based, absorbing X% of the dmg that goes through it and without an hard cap

 

But like Volt said in his thread, i gave up aswell trying to post stuff to help the balance... it's like shouting in a windstorm

 

 

Then globe will not work.

 

Napalms that shoot for 15k damage hits a globe with 75% armor resist all.

It will 1 shot all frames and the pod together.

 

It is much better if globe negates a fix number of hits (ie 200 to 250)

Then DE can balance how many "hits" does a specific mob do.

 

For example a lancer grakata is considered 1 hit, while Ruk's fire blast can be considered as 70 hits for example.

While a Napalm's rocket can be considered as 20 hits while it's DOT is 1 hit per sec.

Edited March 3, 2014 by fatpig84

[SabreUr]

Stop trying to nerf the symptoms and not the cause. If you take most abilites on their own they are fine but once you start figuring out how to min max to oblivion you break the game.

Every frame has some way to break the game currently and its because of corrupted mods aura slots and forma. Nerf blessing and you can use an over extended radial blind build that effectively does the same thing (negates damage), same can be said for radial disarm and a host of other ability builds.

The problem isn't the abilities its the fact that at its core the game is easy and power creep makes it easier. But then again it is fun for a fair amount of people. My suggestion to you OP is if you don't like blessing's easy mode(or any other easy mod tactic and there are a lot of them) don't use them. This game is a sandbox play how you enjoy but try not to take away others enjoyment in the process.

 

Radial Blind, even uberspecialised still has it weaknesses, like the fact that it doesn't totally incapacitates enemies, they can still use grenades/melee and enemies out of range will still shoot at you. Radial Disarm works in limited area, and enemies can still beat the crap out of you.

Blessing will make you invulnerable to anything regardless where on map you are.

 

And to people who say that "don't nerf, buff" - you can't balance the scales by dumping more and more stuff on them, because at some point you will break them.

 

This is EOT from me. Last observation to those, who want to use their cheat-code Trinity and get axe-crazy anytime someone bring balance to the table. You can live in your little comfort zone, but make no mistake - Scott WILL nerf it. Maybe next Wednsday, maybe U13, but it's coming. This skill is even bigger offender than old Iron Skin, Frost Globe and Bastille together. Better start thinking about your reworks and bring them to devs attention, or Scott will do it his way, and noone of you will be happy.

[Phoenix86]

Then globe will not work.

 

Napalms that shoot for 15k damage hits a globe with 75% armor resist all.

It will 1 shot all frames and the pod together.

 

It is much better if globe negates a fix number of hits (ie 200 to 250)

Then DE can balance how many "hits" does a specific mob do.

 

For example a lancer grakata is considered 1 hit, while Ruk's fire blast can be considered as 70 hits for example.

While a Napalm's rocket can be considered as 20 hits while it's DOT is 1 hit per sec.

 

I have yet to see a Napalm hitting for 15k dmg, resist could be capped at 90% and anyway the game is meant to become "impossible" at a certain point... being able to resist without efforts to a 15k shot shows that there's clearly something wrong

 

a cap based on number of hits would be a nightmare to process imho

Edited March 3, 2014 by Phoenix86

[VentiGlondi]

Invincibility is okay, but when it's short and has a cooldown to prevent you from spamming it.

[GTG3000]

How could you possibly gleam that from what I posted.

I explicitly stated that I don't want frames to be overtly nerfed. Instead to be balanced and even buffed, so that they are just as useful without the need for godmode crutch.

Frost is a recent example of how this can go wrong.

I post this because my recent post asking about how to balance trinity has gained momentum. And I'm worried DE migjt see it, and take away trinitys power without changing her kit so she retains her usefulness.

 

 

Dude, this is DE we're talking about. I doubt scott is really able to make subtle changes that work without wrecking the frames' toolkit.

 

Also, just for the sake of it, you can stick your opinion where sun doesn't shine (it's not that far from lankre), if you want to remove tank capabilities from trinity.

 

On a more sane note, Invulnerability is fine when it's used in a right toolkit. I was and will be saying that Trin would not be OP with old godmode link if her Blessing is made into an actual panic-button for the team, with long cooldown to fit and remove spammability.

 

The game is ment to be unbeatable at some point, but it can be enforced by different means than just taking away the best protection skills.

 

More missions, where survival of the frame isn't as important, or enemies that start ignoring certain skills after a certain level cap.

Edited March 3, 2014 by GTG3000

[TunaMayo]

Dude, this is DE we're talking about. I doubt scott is really able to make subtle changes that work without wrecking the frames' toolkit.

 

Also, just for the sake of it, you can stick your opinion where sun doesn't shine (it's not that far from lankre), if you want to remove tank capabilities from trinity.

 

On a more sane note, Invulnerability is fine when it's used in a right toolkit. I was and will be saying that Trin would not be OP with old godmode link if her Blessing is made into an actual panic-button for the team, with long cooldown to fit and remove spammability.

 

The game is ment to be unbeatable at some point, but it can be enforced by different means than just taking away the best protection skills.

 

More missions, where survival of the frame isn't as important, or enemies that start ignoring certain skills after a certain level cap.

Thought I might see you here GT ;)

Na, as I said in the OP, I want frames to maintain their roles, ie Trinity is the durable support. I don't want this to change, but I don't want it to be enforces by "easymode".

I agree scott has made errors, but we also know he is capable of fixing these errors.

I make this thread because a pattern is emerging that invulnerability powers are being removed as they are deemed OP (iron skin, overheat, link, snowglobe). I just want to make sure that these frames maintain their role, and say Trinity becomes a viable support rather than, "pressing 4, brb getting a sandwich".

[GTG3000]

Thought I might see you here GT ;)

Na, as I said in the OP, I want frames to maintain their roles, ie Trinity is the durable support. I don't want this to change, but I don't want it to be enforces by "easymode".

I agree scott has made errors, but we also know he is capable of fixing these errors.

I make this thread because a pattern is emerging that invulnerability powers are being removed as they are deemed OP (iron skin, overheat, link, snowglobe). I just want to make sure that these frames maintain their role, and say Trinity becomes a viable support rather than, "pressing 4, brb getting a sandwich".

 

Well, my moodswings get me to post at the weirdest of places. Gotta apologize for that outburst, though. Bipolar disorder is like that.

 

I've been shouting about ever since the first major change, and honestly, I already lost any belief and trust I had into Scott, fixing things well. This is especially evident since he decided to finally go for removal of Overheat as opposed to putting effort into balancing around it. And I know that many of those powers can be balanced in well.

 

For example, with older Link and EV (while disregarding Blessing), you had to be conscious of your power level, the timing on Link (which could easily leave you in a crowd with no protection) and timing on EV. Although the difficulty was reduced more and more as you could get about ~150 energy from EV while getting a huge discount on link. That could be worked around, by making EV limit more harsh, and by providing Trin with more need to actually spam skills other than Link or gotIhopeitgetsreworked Blessing.

 

Making Trin a viable support would include giving her ondemand healing and energy, but with some downside or limit to them. WoL that heals frames in range for 25% of your health while giving you regen? EV that can be used near-instantly, but will leave you hanging for quite a time if you don't use that power well? Link that requires you to be in the fray of battle if you want to survive, but at the same time makes you hide to recast? Blessing, that can save everyones' lives, but has cooldown that makes you think about using it?

 

That's the kind of skillset she needs, not "ooh, please don't hit that one CCd enemy! I'll give you godmode for that!".

[lostinrehab]

Radial Blind, even uberspecialised still has it weaknesses, like the fact that it doesn't totally incapacitates enemies, they can still use grenades/melee and enemies out of range will still shoot at you. Radial Disarm works in limited area, and enemies can still beat the crap out of you.

Blessing will make you invulnerable to anything regardless where on map you are.

 

And to people who say that "don't nerf, buff" - you can't balance the scales by dumping more and more stuff on them, because at some point you will break them.

 

This is EOT from me. Last observation to those, who want to use their cheat-code Trinity and get axe-crazy anytime someone bring balance to the table. You can live in your little comfort zone, but make no mistake - Scott WILL nerf it. Maybe next Wednsday, maybe U13, but it's coming. This skill is even bigger offender than old Iron Skin, Frost Globe and Bastille together. Better start thinking about your reworks and bring them to devs attention, or Scott will do it his way, and noone of you will be happy.

Honstly they have weaknesses by default but once you min max both abilities they no longer have them. Granted they take a little bit of getting used to to negate the down sides but both blind and disarm can be maxed out range wise at 50 meters (games limit).Radial Blinds duration build makes the range about 40 ish but still I've done hour + survival solo using nothing but radial blind and it was just as easy blessing( pro tip put silence mod on a gun and use radial blind, they wont even hear you. Still do able w/o the mod).

Blessing when used w/o min maxing is like all ults hard to spam but mods make it easier to manage and then corrupted mods made them TOO easy to spam. I played trinity before her rework and forma'd her to try and build super builds it was do able but it took a decent amount of min maxing to do but corrupted mods made it too easy.

So what is my point? I don't think the abilities need much in the way of re-balancing on their own, However I think the easy of acquiring the mods that start making game breaking builds needs to be harder. Also there needs to be legit end game that is challenging that test the ultra gear'd players. I give you an WoW analogy. Currently you can get hard mode raid gear relatively easy and since this isn't an mmo that arbitrarily locks your progression to weekly caps there is a flood of max level gear but no actual hard mode raids to use it on. That is the problem in a nutshell imo.

Edit: Also to follow up on my analogy since there is no real progression cap that stops players from stockpiling that any content that is released will get blown through much faster than they can create it.

Edited March 3, 2014 by lostinrehab

[marharth]

most kneejerk reaction to a thread title i've seen on this forum. way to read buddy

"Trinity is the biggest offender in this department, rendering the entire team invulnerable. I'd really like her to turn into a healing support that keeps the team alive, rather than just providing godmode."

Turning her into a healing support doesn't make sense when she is already a healing support. If her ult gets nerfed her other skills will be reworked to be more damage based most likely, not to be more support based. You can't really do much to well of life to make it a stronger support based skill  without redesigning it completely.

 

[TunaMayo]

"Trinity is the biggest offender in this department, rendering the entire team invulnerable. I'd really like her to turn into a healing support that keeps the team alive, rather than just providing godmode."

Turning her into a healing support doesn't make sense when she is already a healing support. If her ult gets nerfed her other skills will be reworked to be more damage based most likely, not to be more support based. You can't really do much to well of life to make it a stronger support based skill  without redesigning it completely.

 

 

That is literally the entire point of this thread. 

 

"TL;DR, I'm not calling for outright nerfs. But invulnerability have to go, but those frames have to be balanced so that their role remains the same and just as potent. "

 

"I post this because my recent post asking about how to balance trinity has gained momentum. And I'm worried DE might see it, and take away trinitys power without changing her kit so she retains her usefulness. "

 

"I make this thread because a pattern is emerging that invulnerability powers are being removed as they are deemed OP (iron skin, overheat, link, snowglobe). I just want to make sure that these frames maintain their role, and say Trinity becomes a viable support rather than, "pressing 4, brb getting a sandwich". "

[Cwierz]

May I ask why you're having such difficulty with the game?  Have you perhaps fallen victim to RNG, are playing solo, are playing content too numerically superior for your mods, or are just new to shooters?

 

There is no end-game.  Don't kid yourself.  Many of the Warframes used in endless defense and survival are used because they overpower content regardless of its level.  Difficulty makes no difference to them.  When you play high-wave T3 Defense, it's hardly harder if you go Nova/Mag+Trinity+Nyx+Vauban/Zephyr.  The enemies just take longer to kill.

 

I don't think the OP was screaming or whining.  Maybe your definition of those two is different from mine.  Also note that just because we are talking about nerfs here doesn't mean we don't support buffs elsewhere.  There's a place for both nerfs and buffs.  Buffs are for when a subset is weaker than the median and nerfs are where a subset is more powerful than the median.

/thread

[KoshLovesYou]

Well. There is another problem here:

Balanced for WHAT?

There are situations in Warframe when you almost NEED to be invincible just to keep up; Napalm slinging DoT in a shield-free vacuum, Nightmare Mode moments when those bleed procs finally add up and a team mate needs help. High-End 150+ Xini runs where you're REALLY not sure how you're all still keeping that damn thing put together. Or even Vaubaun needing to toss some Bastille out just so S#&$ can calm down and he can get his puny shields back up.

There are too many ranges and scales in Warframe to balance it to any one standard. Even recently, DE has been struggling to make the public invasions less "You're Gonna Need Rhino/Trinity/Valk Only" mode vs Grineer and the like. If you alter a lot of these abilities in one area, it makes them more OP/less OP in others.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Well. There is another problem here:

Balanced for WHAT?

There are situations in Warframe when you almost NEED to be invincible just to keep up; Napalm slinging DoT in a shield-free vacuum, Nightmare Mode moments when those bleed procs finally add up and a team mate needs help. High-End 150+ Xini runs where you're REALLY not sure how you're all still keeping that damn thing put together. Or even Vaubaun needing to toss some Bastille out just so S#&$ can calm down and he can get his puny shields back up.

There are too many ranges and scales in Warframe to balance it to any one standard. Even recently, DE has been struggling to make the public invasions less "You're Gonna Need Rhino/Trinity/Valk Only" mode vs Grineer and the like. If you alter a lot of these abilities in one area, it makes them more OP/less OP in others.

Three things:

 

1. Endless Defense and Survival aren't supposed to be balanced.

2. Nightmare is supposed to be hard

3. The problem isn't really the scale of growth in Warframe, it's the lack of stabilized standardized growth.  If we had that, then we could balance planets and towers with easy.  Unfortunately, the mod system as it stands doesn't allow that.

[fatpig84]

Three things:

 

1. Endless Defense and Survival aren't supposed to be balanced.

2. Nightmare is supposed to be hard

3. The problem isn't really the scale of growth in Warframe, it's the lack of stabilized standardized growth.  If we had that, then we could balance planets and towers with easy.  Unfortunately, the mod system as it stands doesn't allow that.

 

 

For number 2, it is simple.

Bring back No Shields No Energy nightmare.

Yes it was hard.

 

But people whined and said it was punishing. Wut ?

[Davoodoo]

For number 2, it is simple.

Bring back No Shields No Energy nightmare.

Yes it was hard.

 

But people whined and said it was punishing. Wut ?

Even if you bring it back, what will it change?? When no shields, no energy appears ppl will just abort and try again until they get something easier.

[LazyKnight]

Three things:

 

2. Nightmare is supposed to be hardallow that.

Nightmare mode seems like an abandon concept that has latent potential. Many games have 'nightmare/insane mode' as the best place to farm rare items.

 

The way the nightmare mods could be balanced, is allowing people to 'pick' what negatives they want, and if they want to stack them. Each negative chosen should give a positive outcome, such as no-shields giving higher chance of rare mods. This would make it desirable to cripple yourself, because stacking negatives should yield higher rewards for the people that endure them.  

[GTG3000]

Nightmare mode seems like an abandon concept that has latent potential. Many games have 'nightmare/insane mode' as the best place to farm rare items.

 

The way the nightmare mods could be balanced, is allowing people to 'pick' what negatives they want, and if they want to stack them. Each negative chosen should give a positive outcome, such as no-shields giving higher chance of rare mods. This would make it desirable to cripple yourself, because stacking negatives should yield higher rewards for the people that endure them.  

 

That would be fun, but it would probably upset whatever RNGeesus DE has a shrine of in their office.

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

For number 2, it is simple.

Bring back No Shields No Energy nightmare.

Yes it was hard.

 

But people whined and said it was punishing. Wut ?

 I honestly dislike no energy mode. The game is called Warframe. No energy mode is essentially trying to say that they're taking away what is supposed to be the core element of the game. At that point it just becomes another random shooter.

[TwiceDead]

I agree with the OP. These invulnerability states need to go, and be replaced by something more intricate and interesting. 

[GONZI2013]

I'd say that the duration of blessing should be reduced and only trinity get total invincibility, the rest of the team will get like 80% reduction to damage. It should also get a AoE of 30 meters for other team mates

[(PSN)Chip_Foamy]

I disagree, you give up on ultra damage abilities when you use frames like Trinity (unless you're penta-ing yourself or on the very specific case of Tower defenses)

[TwiceDead]

I'd say that the duration of blessing should be reduced and only trinity get total invincibility, the rest of the team will get like 80% reduction to damage. It should also get a AoE of 30 meters for other team mates

 

I'd much rather see a progressive decline in damage reduction from Trinity's blessing with a full, but gradual heal to begin with. 

 

For instance in the beginning you have 100% Damage Reduction which is basically invincibility, every second it drops by 5% and lasts for 10 seconds. Power Duration could extend the timer and decrease the rate the DR Declines. Such as if you had a 100% longer duration, you would only drop your damage reduction by 2.5% per second compared to the normal 5%, and the ability would last for 20 seconds. As for the heals, it shouldn't be instant, i'd rather it be gradual, but that's just my opinion.