Grustrag Three: Infuriating Penalties 2.0

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

The other two are more doable at low levels because they're individual enemies and tend to remain fixated on their mark targets.  Stalker in particular is a bit of a joke because he spawns in as a black blob, slowly stands up - and in my experience typically falls over on the spot before he can finish the 'standing' animation.  You get to shoot him first, and if you run fast enough you can make Harvester fire on you and reveal its location prior to damage hitting your shield.

 

That isn't the case with G3 simply because there are three of them; being shot at may mean you know where one of them is, but the other two are still out there and will still one-shot your low level frame.  You can take cover from Stalker or Harvester (you shouldn't, but you can) but you can't take cover from all of the G3 at once.

 

Again, I'm not trying to say this is a hard fight.  With a passable team they're easy to defeat, but the points I describe above make running away from them on a low level frame a crapshoot regardless of player skill.  You can make a good strategic plan, strong tactical decisions, execute those ideas well, and still get gibbed and penalized.

 

And as to the resources, I think you're missing the point.  These are the same resources I need to craft forma, orokin catalysts, orokin reactors, etc.  The real 'end game' of Warframe is farming that stuff, so when I take a break from my end game chores to level up a new frame, only to be slapped with a penalty that forces me back to the grind, I think I'm legitimately frustrated to find that decisions about how I spend my play time are being forced upon me.

 

 

 

Good design encourages players to cooperate, not to abandon / abort a mission to avoid a penalty.  Most players aren't jerks in the sense that a troll is a jerk, but most players are looking out for themselves first.  Someone earlier mentioned that veteran players who already had the Brakk are bailing out of this fight to avoid the penalty - and they already know they can win the fight and are best equipped to do so!  I doubt we'd see people bailing if the neurode / neural sensor requirement was removed, but the bolt could still pose a threat cost-wise by upping the credit requirement.  Unlike neurodes and sensors, credits are attainable through any game mode, so players don't end up forced into a small group of specific missions to effectively farm the required components.

Actually, I found that you CANNOT safely take cover from the stalker.

 

The harvester, yes, you can take cover.

 

As for fighting three enemies, I play by sound.  I get that most people don't and that in a sense I have an advantage since it means that if they are within a certain range, I know where all the enemies are.  (Though in Warframe, sight lets you see them a bit further away as a cone, sound lets you see them in a sphere-sort of like pull vs crush).

 

As for good design encouraging cooperation, PS4 players generally cooperate.  As I've said, PS4 players are more likely to help with the fight than ditch.  It might just be the groups we play with, but that is what I've seen.  I played FF14 and Warframe and in both games, many if not most players will rush to help people they see in need.  There are a few of course that will leave you to die, but those are the minority from what I've seen.

 

I could be fighting a hard field type boss in FF14 as a tank or a DPS and some random healer will come up and start healing me and make sure I'm ok before even engaging the boss (and you had to engage to get the rewards since rewards were based on participation).

 

I could be a hundred distance ahead of the party.  Flickering lights?  Switch on chat, ask who is being hunted and run towards the party.  Doesn't matter if I have the parts or not, I'm going to go assist.  And I generally see the entire party doing the same no matter how spread out we are, we go and try to help whoever is being targeted.

 

Someone could have all the stalker parts and will still help with the stalker.  Someone could have all the detron parts and still help with the harvester.

 

Even if I knew that I'd be risking danger if I failed, I would STILL try to help because it is how I am.  In demon souls, I played a black phantom all the time, but I can count on my hands how many hosts I killed.  And that was only because the game forced me to do it in order to unlock something (I apologized to all of them and most understood, a few even laughed about it after).  Otherwise, I would join these games in order to help the host run the maps-sort of like having an extra helper.  Quite a few people actually stopped trying to attack me after a while and just let me take care of the traps and more difficult enemies.  (I had one person who did keep attacking me but that was because they were farming and I was more than happy to help them farm black phantoms by dying for them).   I mean, by not attacking the host and even letting them kill me if they really wanted to, I risked losing a LOT of work due to an ability that deleveled you-which could instantly remove about 10~100 hours of work in about three seconds-per person using it.  Luckily?  Only one person did it and it wasn't such a big deal since they had told me that they were going to do it beforehand.  If a bit more work from me could save them hours of work, I was more than happy to do it.

 

My point? From experience, ps4 players are more likely to help each other than hurt each other.  You have the griefers, but those are much rarer.  From experience, PS4 players are more likely to help each other even with a risk involved than abandon each other.  I have seen people running through absurd amounts of danger in games JUST to help someone.  Let us put it this way: If I was in their shoes, would I want my party to abandon me or help me?  (In my case, it would be based on the situation since if sacrificing myself would save the party, I'd sacrifice myself.  This is just how I am, but when I say in their shoes, I mean, if I was in their situation and was them).

Edited March 8, 2014 by (PS4)ariaandkia

[PaperAlien]

However, why did you have no good firepower?

 

I always keep at least one weapon that I can use against any specials.  Just in case something happens.

Maybe some people like to play the game with challenge by not keeping a nuke up their sleeve and exploiting the game's poor scaling system? You get multiple weapons so you can switch weapons when one is out of ammo, or in a pinch when you're reloading, not so you can be lazy and instantly obliterate any enemy that actually threatens you.

Edited March 8, 2014 by PaperAlien

[godluvsus]

Corpus drop Neurodes these days?

 

Wha?

 

Not that I know of. Neurodes is a Grineer drop, and a freaking rare one at that.

 

And the three things I hate about the G3:

 

1). Grineer were already more annoying than the Corpus, yet they occupy nearly 75% of the Solar Map. Nobody I know enjoys fighting the Grineer. Did we need to make them MORE annoying than they already were?

 

2). The BDSM Brand you get on your shoulder. "Property of the Grineer"? Seriously? That sounds like a BDSM thing. No Thanks, I am SO not into BDSM.

 

3). The freaking rare materials. It wouldn't be so bad if it were, say, Circuits, Polymer Bundles, and 5-10 Oxium to remove it.

 

And a little addition, kinda-sorta a 4th: They added those stupid lights and door barriers to make Grineer levels MORE FREAKING ANNOYING.

xini is corps and drops nuerodes

[Anunymau5]

Also I feel like everyone is missing this, Mercury, Venus, and Earth cannot be invaded so that the Grustrag wont be called down on low lvl players!

[BlueSilkMetallic]

I love the idea of the bolt :)

Ok perhaps there should be an other way then crafting to remove it.

Maybe run a quest line ? (5 missions that have a mini story ?)

[NovusNiveus]

If I'm levelling low-level gear I'll be carrying my lv30 Akbolto as backup - not so that I can have a handy easy mode button, but because the Rank 3 Karak or whatever it is I'm levelling sure as Hek isn't going to do the job.

[RawGritz]

Maybe some people like to play the game with challenge by not keeping a nuke up their sleeve and exploiting the game's poor scaling system? You get multiple weapons so you can switch weapons when one is out of ammo, or in a pinch when you're reloading, not so you can be lazy and instantly obliterate any enemy that actually threatens you.

Are those REALLY your only options? 

Edited March 8, 2014 by RawGritz

[Nagisawa]

This is really sad.  All we have are veterans, people with more than 50 hours in game razzing people, believing that the complainers are having the issues when for the most part, we're talking about newbies.  People who don't know anything about the system past when the incomplete codex shows, and not everyone is going to be introduced by a friend.

 

My little brother told me about this game, and we've not had a chance to play together.  And if we did, I'd be the one teaching him, assuming we get on at the same time.  He's married and has a early morning job, so odds are... Low.

 

We vets might find Stalk, Harvy and the Brothers G3 annoying and a mild issue, but newbies?  They're going to find other games to play, and taking their money with them.  And without that extra cash, unless you're all able to contribute 10's of thousands of dollars per Platinum sale, there's a good chance we're not going to have Melee 2.0 or Stealth 2.0 any time soon.  Worse case scenario, at all.

[NovusNiveus]

This is really sad.  All we have are veterans, people with more than 50 hours in game razzing people, believing that the complainers are having the issues when for the most part, we're talking about newbies.  People who don't know anything about the system past when the incomplete codex shows, and not everyone is going to be introduced by a friend.

 

My little brother told me about this game, and we've not had a chance to play together.  And if we did, I'd be the one teaching him, assuming we get on at the same time.  He's married and has a early morning job, so odds are... Low.

 

We vets might find Stalk, Harvy and the Brothers G3 annoying and a mild issue, but newbies?  They're going to find other games to play, and taking their money with them.  And without that extra cash, unless you're all able to contribute 10's of thousands of dollars per Platinum sale, there's a good chance we're not going to have Melee 2.0 or Stealth 2.0 any time soon.  Worse case scenario, at all.

I feel that perhaps the real issue is that newbies are encountering these guys at all. By the time you get to Earth you can craft my weapon of choice (Akbolto), which should be more than enough to deal with them, and this is before you have access to Invasion to get marked at all.

There is the other issue of minibosses coming after a veteran in a newbie PUG, but I'm not sure how you could go down the normal progression path and be unprepared when one of these guys shows up.

I'll have to make a new account and test things out.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

This is really sad.  All we have are veterans, people with more than 50 hours in game razzing people, believing that the complainers are having the issues when for the most part, we're talking about newbies.  People who don't know anything about the system past when the incomplete codex shows, and not everyone is going to be introduced by a friend.

 

My little brother told me about this game, and we've not had a chance to play together.  And if we did, I'd be the one teaching him, assuming we get on at the same time.  He's married and has a early morning job, so odds are... Low.

 

We vets might find Stalk, Harvy and the Brothers G3 annoying and a mild issue, but newbies?  They're going to find other games to play, and taking their money with them.  And without that extra cash, unless you're all able to contribute 10's of thousands of dollars per Platinum sale, there's a good chance we're not going to have Melee 2.0 or Stealth 2.0 any time soon.  Worse case scenario, at all.

As I've said before, I do have a problem with them affecting people that they aren't after.  it does not make sense to me for that to happen.

 

I should also add that if you look at the original post, there was nothing about it affecting newbies.  That wasn't what this topic about.  This topic was about how the penalties were too great. I think the penalties are rather minor, personally.  This is considering that part of my standard kit includes an extinguished dragon key, just to rub it in the faces of novas that not only did I manage to outkill them in the match with a Valkyr, I did it with an extinguished key equipped.

 

What I'm finding odd about the complainers is that most of them seem to be having trouble killing enemies because despite knowing what to do, they aren't keeping themselves prepared.

 

That would be like me going: Oh hey, the stalker is going to come for me this match, let me use only unranked weaponry that I have never used before and use a caster build warframe that can't do damage with spells.

 

Granted, I could still win, but it would be purposefully lowering my chances.   And if there is a danger of affecting other players, it would be purposefully increasing the danger that other players in my party are being exposed to.

 

Why in the eleven he-would I do that?  I might as well as go up to those party members and tell them, one by one, that I hate them, want them dead (I mean this in the best possible way), and wish them the worst fate I could possibly bring them.

 

Instead, I'd keep at least one weapon that I know that I can fight with.  Though oddly enough, one time I tried to fight the stalker by provoking him and did exactly that with bringing useless stuff (though I didn't group with randoms, I went essentially solo).   He didn't show up until I had maxed everything.   I was surprised, guess he gave up on killing me when I "wasn't ready."

 

I still think the stalker is played by a DE employee ;P  /hashtag conspiracy theory 

 

 

I feel that perhaps the real issue is that newbies are encountering these guys at all. By the time you get to Earth you can craft my weapon of choice (Akbolto), which should be more than enough to deal with them, and this is before you have access to Invasion to get marked at all.

There is the other issue of minibosses coming after a veteran in a newbie PUG, but I'm not sure how you could go down the normal progression path and be unprepared when one of these guys shows up.

I'll have to make a new account and test things out.

Definitely agreed that newbies should not be seeing them.   I think perhaps a mastery rank based lockout would be a good idea.  As in if someone is less than mastery rank say 2, the roaming bosses shouldn't appear at all.

 

I can definitely say that if I was playing solo, I'd not have a problem with stalker, but when I had first started, the suggestion was to not fight stalker but run in circles.  This meant that for a while, I never actually learned how to fight him.

 

As for them showing up for veterans in a PUG, as I've said before, I always keep a weapon for reserve.  

 

===

@PaperAlien

 

And if the game wants to send a high level assassin after me while I'm ranking up everything, why should I not use a high level weapon to fight said assassin?  Or assassins.  We get three weapons.

 

My usual setup is either:

Warframe+Preferred primary (such as paris prime)+Preferred secondary (such as kunai)+Glaive prime

or

Warframe+2 Training weapons and a preferred weapon.

 

So it isn't like I have to switch to a powerful weapon considering I have 3 weapons to choose from.  Plus, I have so many things maxed out that even if I didn't want to, at least one of my weapons would likely be a maxed rank weapon of some form.

 

I'm sorry, but if I want a challenge, I'll fight the stalker or do long survivals/defense.  If I want to rank up my gear, I'll do long survivals/defense.

 

If i really wanted a challenge, I'd not allow myself my powers OR melee.  I honestly suck at shooting in this game.  My specialty is long range sniping and sound in this game has a very hard limit (that is much shorter than my preferred range).  The only game thus far where I have my preferred range is Battlefield and that game I usually stay much closer due to the fact that people don't know how to play the objectives.  (If your sniper can get the highest score in the match, the most kills in the entire match, and manage to run from 3 bases away, sneak past the enemy, and do the objective before the rest of the team even get close to reaching the objective... something's wrong).  Granted, there were a few people trying to knife me though they failed pretty badly since I play by sound and not sight, but I suppose that they tried to knife me instead of shooting me could have had something to do with how I managed to do more objectives than most of my teammates since if they weren't trying to shoot me, it gave me a chance to leave a "gift" for them after they knifed me at the objective.

 

The only reason I can even use the paris prime is because it isn't hitscan which increases my affinity with it.

 

If I want to help some newbies progress, I'll play with some newbies and if they don't want me to help, there is always voice chat and the ps4 came with a mic.  And there is always text chat and if you can use a controller, you can type.  There is always also the option of leaving after the mission, but most seem to enjoy me helping them progress their starmap.

 

 

 

And seriously, if bringing a weapon appropriate for the job is equal to bringing a nuke, I guess every nation in existence equips their military with nothing but nukes?  Because no military in their right mind would bring nothing but weapons that are obviously worthless for the task of fighting.  (Even if they brought a few, they'd generally have at least one good weapon).

Edited March 8, 2014 by (PS4)ariaandkia

[PaperAlien]

@PaperAlien

 

And if the game wants to send a high level assassin after me while I'm ranking up everything, why should I not use a high level weapon to fight said assassin?  Or assassins.  We get three weapons.

Well, at the current moment, that's the one of the only ways to respond. That's why these assassins actually are a problem to gameplay, because they force you to bring an emergency nuke. People playing the game in its intended form (that is, having similarly levelled weapons) have problems with assassins, therefore assassins are not fine as they are.

 

 

 

And seriously, if bringing a weapon appropriate for the job is equal to bringing a nuke, I guess every nation in existence equips their military with nothing but nukes?  Because no military in their right mind would bring nothing but weapons that are obviously worthless for the task of fighting.  (Even if they brought a few, they'd generally have at least one good weapon).

This comparison is completely inapplicable because in the military do not need to "level up" weapons and they simply wouldn't be bringing the worthless weapons in the first place.

Edited March 8, 2014 by PaperAlien

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

Well, at the current moment, that's the one of the only ways to respond. That's why these assassins actually are a problem to gameplay, because they force you to bring an emergency nuke. People playing the game in its intended form (that is, having similarly levelled weapons) have problems with assassins, therefore assassins are not fine as they are.

 

 

 

This comparison is completely inapplicable because in the military do not need to "level up" weapons and they simply wouldn't be bringing the worthless weapons in the first place.

So you are saying that my using a level 30 weapon against a level 60 enemy is overpowered?  I guess I must be doing everything wrong.  I suppose that by your standards, a level 7 weapon against a level 60 would be too powerful also?   Since I have killed the stalker with a level 7 weapon. Solo. Easily.  But I guess since it wasn't a challenge to me, it was too powerful of a weapon.

 

It is applicable.  When you "level up" a weapon, nothing really changes about the weapon itself.  It is the mods you put on that change the weapon.  Same with military weapons.  It is what you add that changes things.  Bullet type as an example.   And I said every nation in existence.  As in including the past.  Don't think that the military don't bring worthless gear.  They've done it quite a few times in the past. (This post will now be censored for my own protection).

 

But generally, at least one weapon is good.

[Monolake]

No, it isn't.  Running for extraction still gives them a good chance to inflict a penalty on you, since there is a good chance that they will spawn in and gib your low-rank frame before you can make it to extraction.

 

No, I want a situation in which winning is possible if I play skillfully.

 

I did that, which is why I was overconfident enough to attempt to fight in the first place; doesn't help if you get gibbed because your max hp/shields are low and three bosses spawn atop you.  

I didn't play them too many times, but I seems like they cheat teleporting on top of you. And they do very high damage indeed. Needs work to make fighting them more skill-dependant, rather then just requiring you to use CC frame (like Booben or Rhino) and kill them asap wit OP guns. 

Its a similar to Stalker when he 1-shots you its zero fun and leaves no window for mistakes or any meaningful and tactical fight.

 

 

According to what?  Where can I find my mark status in game?  Where can I find instructions that indicate that backing the grineer erases my mark in game?  If this is accurate it would explain why I never seem to bump into Harvester lately - I need Fieldron more than Detonite Injectors - but I can't find anything anywhere to back this assertion up.

According to deathmarks discussions back from Harvester hunt and all the info people managed to dig up. There is no way to see it ingame unfortunately.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

I didn't play them too many times, but I seems like they cheat teleporting on top of you. And they do very high damage indeed. Needs work to make fighting them more skill-dependant, rather then just requiring you to use CC frame (like Booben or Rhino) and kill them asap wit OP guns. 

Its a similar to Stalker when he 1-shots you its zero fun and leaves no window for mistakes or any meaningful and tactical fight.

 

 

According to deathmarks discussions back from Harvester hunt and all the info people managed to dig up. There is no way to see it ingame unfortunately.

 

Having no window for mistakes CAN be fun though, just saying.

 

Look at the old megaman games.  Look at super meat boy (though there is window for mistakes in the later).

 

The issue is making that challenge fun.   Example: Obstacle courses are not fun for me due to the glitches where wallrun initiates a chance that I will TELEPORT THROUGH THE WALLS or simply fall through them (Which has happened the last 20+ times I've tried to do an obstacle course legitimately).  Fixing said glitches, would make them fun for me.

[Yezzik]

Also I feel like everyone is missing this, Mercury, Venus, and Earth cannot be invaded so that the Grustrag wont be called down on low lvl players!

You aren't listening. Okay, order of events here:

I do an Invasion, side with Corpus, get or already have Deathmark (no mail).

I polarise Trinity.

I go to Mercury, run Survival.

I'm on a level 1 frame. So are the rest of the party.

The G3 spawn to kill me. They're level 20.

We die horribly. If I'm wrong and the others didn't actually quit out, they got Bolted too, which is completely unfair due to the overleveled G3 and even more so if they were just starting out.

[Monolake]

Having no window for mistakes CAN be fun though, just saying.

 

Look at the old megaman games.  Look at super meat boy (though there is window for mistakes in the later).

 

The issue is making that challenge fun.   Example: Obstacle courses are not fun for me due to the glitches where wallrun initiates a chance that I will TELEPORT THROUGH THE WALLS or simply fall through them (Which has happened the last 20+ times I've tried to do an obstacle course legitimately).  Fixing said glitches, would make them fun for me.

You have many re-tries in those games, If you solo die to g3 or Stalker its gameover and you wont even see them again for many games. In coop you can only hope your team kills them and revives you later (if they try reviving you before dealing with G3 they will most likely get killed too). 

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

You have many re-tries in those games, If you solo die to g3 or Stalker its gameover and you wont even see them again for many games. In coop you can only hope your team kills them and revives you later (if they try reviving you before dealing with G3 they will most likely get killed too). 

 

I do agree, as I said, the issue is making it fun.  Right now, the challenges aren't fun for anyone that aren't so used to it that they can do those battles without difficulty.  And for those that can do it without difficulty, it may not be fun because it is too easy.

 

They need to alter it so that players enjoy the challenges fully.  They also need to remove the punishment for being in the wrong place at the wrong time (aka the punishment for being an innocent bystander).   I still have yet to have seen proof that it occurs, but I'll assume that you humans aren't Lotus and won't lie to me.

 

They need to (personally) INCREASE the punishment for the player targeted.  However, this punishment should be based on how many times you succeed.  So if you succeed just once in say a few months, your punishment is rather light.  However, if you succeed many times in say a few months, your punishment is more severe.  If you manage to succeed many times, say 50 times in 2 days, your punishment would be even more severe.  However, at the same time, the rewards should be increased as the punishment becomes more and more dangerous.  Perhaps first time you only get a chance at a drop.  However, if you manage to do it say 10 times in 2 months, you get a guaranteed drop.  If you manage to do it say 50 times in a week, you get a guaranteed drop and a chance at a second drop.  In addition, the difficulty could scale to the number of successes, where the more you succeed, the higher the difficulty.  This might be based on encounters rather than time.

 

Then, perhaps they could have a chance at dropping rare resources and even credit bundles or crafting parts (such as fieldron).  This would be an additional loot separate from their main loot table and the amount as well as the chances could be based on success.  And running could count as a failure (so if you were to run to extraction and extract, it would count as a failure while if your team ran to extraction while you were still trying to fight, it could count as a draw).

 

So in the case of a encounter value, it could cap at say 100.  So say you fought the stalker 100 times and won all 100 times.  Each time, the stalker could get a +1% stat boost. This would be specific to when the stalker is coming after you.  (So if someone else had a stalker spawn and you killed it, it would count for the other player but not you).  You would then have say a +200% drop rate where he drops say 3 times as much loot (from his standard drop table) as normal - thus making it possible for him to drop 3 blueprints in one encounter.  In addition, he could have a +200% drop rate on a say normally 20% drop rate of a bundle item for a 60% drop rate.   This bundle would also get a +200% bonus to the quality so say it starts with a 20k credit bundle or a 2 fieldron bundle or a 10 orokin cell bundle.  That would then be 60k or 6 or 30.  However, the stalker would be twice as strong in terms of stats as he normally would be as an exchange.

 

As an additional stat, there could be an assist value that would also cap at say 100.  With the same rules in terms of running.  This could provide an additive bonus to stats, drop rates, and quality. The stat bonus could be half the value of the encounter value bonus.   So 100 out of 100 would give the stalker +50% stat boost, +200% drop rate, and +200% drop quality.   Meaning that you could get a stalker that is 2.5 times normal strength, 500% drop chance (5 drop table rolls), 500% bundle chance (so in the above example, 100% bundle chance), and 500% bundle quality.

 

This would provide incentives to succeed and incentive to help.  In fact, it would give more incentives for helping than succeeding on your own.  This could be applied to all 3 roaming bosses.

 

 

And of course the punishments could be also increased (perhaps not nearly as quickly or in some cases faster).  So your first time would be a light punishment (not part of the scaling process), so say cost  you 1 of each resource to unbolt, you might be able to get assistance in the harvester mission, stalker might simply knock you out instead of outright killing you.  This would essentially be a "preview" of what will happen.

 

After that, with each success, you would get more and more punishment (this would be based on the encounter value noted above).  So you might lose an actual revive right away if the stalker kills you with maxed success.  You might need 50 of each resource with maxed success.  You might have a more difficult escape mission with a handicap.

 

However, as part of the bundles, there could be items that would assist n said punishments.  Maybe a log that lets you revive from death once could be a stalker drop.  Perhaps a small sidearm with collectible ammo (sort of like the scanner) as a harvester drop and have the sidearm usable in the mission.  Perhaps have all the resources needed to unbolt yourself.  These could be part of the bundles at a low chance.

Edited March 8, 2014 by (PS4)ariaandkia

[Anunymau5]

You aren't listening. Okay, order of events here:

I do an Invasion, side with Corpus, get or already have Deathmark (no mail).

I polarise Trinity.

I go to Mercury, run Survival.

I'm on a level 1 frame. So are the rest of the party.

The G3 spawn to kill me. They're level 20.

We die horribly. If I'm wrong and the others didn't actually quit out, they got Bolted too, which is completely unfair due to the overleveled G3 and even more so if they were just starting out.

Yeah you can't join new players on mercury anymore, it's based on your conclave rating and mastery. THis was to stop speedrunners killing everyone before the new guys had a chance to.

[Yezzik]

Yeah you can't join new players on mercury anymore, it's based on your conclave rating and mastery. THis was to stop speedrunners killing everyone before the new guys had a chance to.

 

Doesn't matter if they were new or not.

We were level 1. The content was level 1. The Grustrags were level 20.

It's unfair to anyone I end up pugging with if my possession of a Mark means they risk getting obliterated and Bolted by mobs far too powerful for the frames they're trying to level.

[Anunymau5]

Doesn't matter if they were new or not.

We were level 1. The content was level 1. The Grustrags were level 20.

It's unfair to anyone I end up pugging with if my possession of a Mark means they risk getting obliterated and Bolted by mobs far too powerful for the frames they're trying to level.

Thats why you bring good equipment when you're lvling a new frame.

[gnat6]

Thats why you bring good equipment when you're lvling a new frame.

It does not matter how good your gun is if your frame only has 100 shield hp.

[Onisa]

Most of these issues would be moot if they scaled properly. Like off an average party conclave or something.

[-CdG-Revo]

It was a long, long time ago, a stranger said to me:"Don't hide away child from this world, you ain't shackled YOU ARE FREE."

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

It does not matter how good your gun is if your frame only has 100 shield hp.

 

I've done missions with only 50 shield.  I've done high level missions I should say, with only 50 shield.  As I've said before, when leveling up something, I go for survival and defense.  I don't go to a low level area.  I go to the highest level I can manage.  (manage being the key word).  It does matter how good your weapon is since the stronger your weapon, the shorter the fight.  The shorter the fight, the less of a chance that you will mess up as well as the less of a chance that the enemy will get to cheat.

 

Saying your gun doesn't matter because you only have 100 hp is like saying: Well, I'll bring a knife (instead of a gun) to a gun duel because I'll die in one hit regardless.   You don't do that unless you want to die.  Instead, you bring your best gun that is allowed in the duel.  And depending on the rules, you find cover, you dodge, and you try not to die.

 

There are several important things for a Loki.  One of them is positioning.   That is important for many situations.  (Excluding where you are just overpowering the enemies).

[notionphil]

Scale G3 materials penalty with conclave rating. Done.

 

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