Boltor Prime Is Grossly Overpowered

[Davoodoo]

I get it now.  Galatine needs a nerf because it's overpowering the Skana.   

Now say it again without being sarcastic and you might actually be close to truth.

We can exclude skana because its starter weapon but galantine being better than cronus already makes it op.

If everything does 100 dmg and 1 weapon does 105 its already overpowered and while 5% difference between weakest and strongest doesnt make much difference having over 200% difference is serious flaw.

 

If we get tiered system someday this will apply to weapons within tier instead of all of them

However if tier consists of 1 weapon then its not a tiered system.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Davoodoo

[xkillo32]

i would be mad if they nerfed it right when soma prime came out...

[LazyKnight]

Even borderlands despite having 6(common,uncommon,rare,epic,legendary, pearlescent) weapon tiers, though largely unbalanced handles balance better than warframe

The Level 50 NPC have absurd DPS, the only reason they are trivial to kill is because DE didn't balance invulnerability powers or decoy powers. Past level 60 1100 shields will only keep someone alive for a few seconds.

 

DE offset player TTK by having NPC have a even higher speed of killing players. The problem is DE gave too many skills that remove the balancing mechanic that would have caused people to hit the glass celling, and this is because if an NPC lasted 2 second it would wipe a team.

 

Trinity should be nerfed, and everything else that lets people take unlimited damage. The balancing of warframe NEEDS to look at defensive powers, as they are the ones that let people do hard mission while taking zero damage from any NPC. Player DPS is easily off-set but the warframes powers are easy mode.

Edited March 14, 2014 by LazyKnight

[xkillo32]

Except the enemy. They're underpowered already, and will become even more underpowered. So then the devs have to go and buff all the enemies.

 

By the time that's all done, the result is the same as nerfing a couple of weapons, except it took much more time and resources to do.

This is the exact path that Maplestory has followed for years, and it suffers because of it.

lol maplestory

i remember when i used to play it

[Davoodoo]

The Level 50 NPC have absurd DPS, the only reason they are trivial to kill is because DE didn't balance invulnerability powers or decoy powers. Past level 60 1100 shields will only keep someone alive for handle full of seconds.

DE offset player TTK by having NPC have a even higher speed of killing players. The problem is DE gave too many skills that remove the balancing mechanic that would have caused people to hit the glass celling, and this is because if an NPC lasted 2 second it would wipe a team.

Trinity should be nerfed, and everything else that lets people take unlimited damage. The balancing of warframe NEEDS to look at defensive powers, as they are the ones that let people do hard mission while taking zero damage from any NPC. Player DPS is easily off-set but the warframes powers are easy mode.

Same thing applies to borderlands from playthrough 2 mobs will take you in 1 to 3 hits, while bosses will take 2 hits top, at the same time you need to put a clip from even pearlescent weapon to kill mere grunt. Playthrough 3 basically forces specific tactic on you.

So bascially same survivability with lower ttk and forcing specific tactic on you(trinity blessing, nova mprime, frost snow globe) and lack of endgame content if you compare warframe to borderlands. Warframe is mmorpg/fps while borderlands is hack n slash concealed as shooter.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Davoodoo

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

So you're research is someone elses research?   I get it.....I get it

Since you seem to want some manual numbers to back it up...

 

Boltor Prime

 

54 base damage

10 RoF

60 rounds/mag

2.4 reload

5% crit chance

200% crit damage

 

Built Serration/Heavy Caliber/Split Chamber/Shred/Bane/3x 90% elementals.

 

Average damage per shot, crits not factored in:

54*4.3*1.9*1.3*3.7 = 2122 per shot

 

Factor in crits:

2122*(.95 + .05*2) = 2228 per shot

 

Factor in rate of fire and reload time:

10*1.3 = 13 RoF

60/13 = ~4.615s to empty mag

+2.4 = ~7.015s for total cycle

 

Calculating DPS:

60*2228/7.015 = 19056 sustained DPS

60*2228/4.615 = 28966 burst DPS

 

You can get higher DPS if you really want to just by switching Shred out for Speed Trigger.

----------------------------------

 

Boltor

 

24 base damage

8.8 RoF

60 rounds/mag

2.6 reload

5% crit chance

150% crit damage

 

Same build.

 

Average damage per shot, crits not factored in:

24*4.3*1.9*1.3*3.7 = 943 per shot

 

Factor in crits:

943*(.95 + .05*1.5) = 966 per shot

 

Factor in rate of fire and reload time:

8.8*1.3 = 11.44 RoF

60/11.44 = ~5.244s to empty mag

+2.6 = ~7.844s for total cycle

 

Calculating DPS:

60*966/7.844 = 7389 sustained DPS

60*966/5.244 = 11052 burst DPS

 

Boltor Prime vs. Boltor

19056/7389 = ~2.57 times the sustained DPS

28966/11052 = ~2.62 times the burst DPS

 

There you go. His numbers (almost 20k DPS and easily 20k DPS with Speed Trigger, 2.5x DPS of Boltor) are totally valid.

 

Instead of accusing him of making up/throwing random numbers around and having no idea of what he's talking about, how about you actually disprove what he is claiming?

[Vaskadar]

This is exactly why there need to be balance passes every other week.

[Ishki88]

Since you seem to want some manual numbers to back it up...

Boltor Prime

54 base damage

10 RoF

60 rounds/mag

2.4 reload

5% crit chance

200% crit damage

Built Serration/Heavy Caliber/Split Chamber/Shred/Bane/3x 90% elementals.

Average damage per shot, crits not factored in:

54*4.3*1.9*1.3*3.7 = 2122 per shot

Factor in crits:

2122*(.95 + .05*2) = 2228 per shot

Factor in rate of fire and reload time:

10*1.3 = 13 RoF

60/13 = ~4.615s to empty mag

+2.4 = ~7.015s for total cycle

Calculating DPS:

60*2228/7.015 = 19056 sustained DPS

60*2228/4.615 = 28966 burst DPS

You can get higher DPS if you really want to just by switching Shred out for Speed Trigger.

----------------------------------

Boltor

24 base damage

8.8 RoF

60 rounds/mag

2.6 reload

5% crit chance

150% crit damage

Same build.

Average damage per shot, crits not factored in:

24*4.3*1.9*1.3*3.7 = 943 per shot

Factor in crits:

943*(.95 + .05*1.5) = 966 per shot

Factor in rate of fire and reload time:

8.8*1.3 = 11.44 RoF

60/11.44 = ~5.244s to empty mag

+2.6 = ~7.844s for total cycle

Calculating DPS:

60*966/7.844 = 7389 sustained DPS

60*966/5.244 = 11052 burst DPS

Boltor Prime vs. Boltor

19056/7389 = ~2.57 times the sustained DPS

28966/11052 = ~2.62 times the burst DPS

There you go. His numbers (almost 20k DPS and easily 20k DPS with Speed Trigger, 2.5x DPS of Boltor) are totally valid.

Instead of accusing him of making up/throwing random numbers around and having no idea of what he's talking about, how about you actually disprove what he is claiming?

Calculating DPS:

60*2228/7.015 = 19056 sustained DPS

60*2228/4.615 = 28966 burst DPS

That's not overpowered though.....

Burston Prime averages 50-64k DPS

Phage averages 50-63k DPS

Lanka 38-40k DPS

Latron Prime 35-48k DPS

Currently if the top primary weapons are averaging 40-65k DPS.....then before I even attempt to add in to this argument..please show me....

Burston Prime averaging atleast 60-90k+ damage....and even if...that's not overpowered...since the weapon lower in rank does 50-60k....

From your calculations, Boltor Prime isn't even Top 15.

We can use other people's references if you want though.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqEdgMHjBhOHdFk1dTBxQUdoOXBmOTN2TTFkTjBvTUE&usp=drive_web#gid=10

Edited March 14, 2014 by Ishki88

[Krysis_V]

I for one am glad that a classic weapon has received this level of shine and polish.

 

... Unlike the Gorgon Wraith... But I digress.

[Ishki88]

I for one am glad that a classic weapon has received this level of shine and polish.

 

... Unlike the Gorgon Wraith... But I digress.

 

Gorgon Wraith should of been a buff to the regular Gorgon IMO.  *Kanye Shrug*

 

But yeah.  Show me Boltor Prime COMPLETELY outclassing EVERY other primary.   Because if you're trying to tell me under 30k DPS is OP.  Then I'm going to laugh at you.  No one has sat down and actually done their own research.  I'm sitting here actually PLAYING the game.  LEVELING up the Boltor Prime to test out its power.  You can continue to view these DPS websites that aren't even co-signed by DE (yet)

 

Pay attention to DPS rather than enjoying what makes you happy!  Pay more attention other people having fun instead of figuring why you're not! :3

 

OH you're mad because when you saw the mission stats, another player had 70% AVG damage while you had......34%

 

QQ 

 

Edit:  It's funny to me.  This is a team-based game but everyone is trying to figure out ways to make this game competitive against each other.  "Hey his gun is stronger than mine!"  "NERF IT"   

 

Do you realize he is actually helping you complete whatever mission your doing?  I keep forgetting like...it's a select few playerse that actually fight lvl 40 and above......people are doing their "NERF" test by playing alerts and missions on Sedna..lol....this is too hilarious to take serious.....

 

The last REAL OP gun I saw was the OG version of Strun Wraith...

Edited March 14, 2014 by Ishki88

[LazyKnight]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqEdgMHjBhOHdFk1dTBxQUdoOXBmOTN2TTFkTjBvTUE&usp=drive_web#gid=10

That chart is based off an assumption about how status effects work that is not quite right. I do not want to write a wall of text right now, but that chart assumes all status effect have an equal chance and that one bullet can proc all effects at once. Dread>Paris prime if the chart was correctly factoring how the slash chance is calculated based on the ratio of a weapon's I/s/p.

 

If the status effects are a factored, it is not in Boltor Primes favor because it lacks any slash damage. It wouldn't be the worst weapon in game, but it is not a contender for the top primary weapon spot, because of ones like Dread that can get ticking slash dots doing thousands per tick.

 

If headshots critical damage are factored in Boltor prime wouldn't be in the Top 5. Synapse and Soma can easily out damage boltor prime on anything that lets them unload all their DPS on a targets head (think heavy gunner). Headshot critical are a major reason why Boltor prime feels weaker than Soma. Soma doesn't need heavy caliber to match a boltor prime with one.

Edited March 14, 2014 by LazyKnight

[OniDax]

Not overpowered. Boltor's "bolts" are slow compared to other weapons. That's the drawback. You need to lead your enemies when they're moving fast. Soma's drawback is that it has a gradually increasing rate of fire that starts off slow.

[Ishki88]

That chart makes is based off an assumption about how status effects work that is not quite right. I do not want to write a wall of text right now, but that chart assumes all status effect have an equal chance and that one bullet can proc all effects at once. Dread>Paris prime if the chart was correctly factoring how the slash chance is calculated based on the ratio of a weapon's I/s/p.

 

I understand that but even if we disregard status.  It is still not possible for Boltor Prime to outclass the rest of our arsenal.  And it's not really an assumption.  I tested out a build from that chart and it's pretty spot on.   People are not adding in the factor Boltor Prime is NOT a hit-scan weapon.  Lag and delay can come into play in regards to actually IN-GAME DPS.  Just because it's "OP" on paper doesn't mean it's going to have the same results online.  

 

If the status effects are a factored it is not in Boltor Primes favor because it lacks any slash damage. It wouldn't be the worst weapon in game, but it is not a contender for the top primary weapon spot, because of ones like Dread that can get ticking slash dots doing thousands per tick.

 

I agree.

 

If headshots critical damage are factored in Boltor prime wouldn't be in the Top 5. Synapse and Soma can easily out damage boltor prime on anything that lets them unload all their DPS on a targets head (think heavy gunner). Headshot critical are a major reason why Boltor prime feels weaker than Soma. Soma doesn't need heavy caliber to match a boltor prime with one.

 

I agree.  I'm sorry it's just no way Boltor Prime is overpowered when we have Hit-Scan weapons outclassing it.  Boltor Prime to me is perfect what what it does and what it can't do.  I'm sorry.  I'm calling butt-hurt.  Period.  And I still want to see IN-GAME FOOTAGE displaying Boltor Prime outclassing the top 5 primaries right now.

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

 

Calculating DPS:
60*2228/7.015 = 19056 sustained DPS
60*2228/4.615 = 28966 burst DPS

That's not overpowered though.....

Burston Prime averages 50-64k DPS
Phage averages 50-63k DPS
Lanka 38-40k DPS
Latron Prime 35-48k DPS

Currently if the top primary weapons are averaging 40-65k DPS.....then before I even attempt to add in to this argument..please show me....

Burston Prime averaging atleast 60-90k+ damage....and even if...that's not overpowered...since the weapon lower in rank does 50-60k....

From your calculations, Boltor Prime isn't even Top 15.

We can use other people's references if you want though.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqEdgMHjBhOHdFk1dTBxQUdoOXBmOTN2TTFkTjBvTUE&usp=drive_web#gid=10

Just so you know, that chart is not a very good metric in its current form. It is based off of Gottfraust's DPS calculator, which while I do like some aspects of it, is faulty in many others. For instance, his TTK calculations (Heavy Gunner TTK is VERY off), his continuous fire logic (applies to guns such as the Phage), and his status proc logic (kind of odd, assumes all procs triggered every time and does not properly deal with armor/type mitigation). I've actually gone through his source code to see his logic on all his stuff. I have not looked over his little burst fire section yet, though I don't really care to right now.

 

The chart itself generally assumes a build mixing Gas, Viral, Heat, and Electric. This is because in terms of raw, easily calculable DPS and TTK, these effects with direct health damage will come out on top without doubt (especially thanks to his proc logic) due to the fact that these deal direct damage (and a substantial amount at that, except to Grineer against which these status effects will tickle) and can stack vs. other procs such as Cold and Radiation which do no damage. All the proc damage is also calculated wrong iirc (probably using old information). For Viral against a level 100 enemy, it provides an insane bonus in terms of TTK. However, damage procs other than Slash typically suck against Grineer (in terms of pure damage) because they are mitigated by armor. And they don't have near the amount of effect that his proc logic would suggest.

 

For an example of his proc logic, imagine that you are shooting a gun with 50% status chance and you have Slash + Toxic on your weapon. According to Gottfraust's DPS simulator, every 2 shots, you will proc Slash and Toxic without fail and at the same time. This line of logic means that for every 2 shots, the you deal one proc that does 7*.35 of your weapon damage and another proc that does X*.5 of your weapon damage (no idea how many times Toxic procs). When you add in multishot and the like, this gets very out of hand. Now, this obviously isn't how it actually works or you'd see a ton more people using status builds.

 

In terms of TTK, let's just say that for the Heavy Gunner... it is completely wrong. Like, not even close to right at the moment. It calculates armor completely wrong, completely ignores Cloned Flesh, and so on.

 

If you're going to quote a source to back up your info, you should probably actually know something about that source. I honestly find it pretty odd how people will just link that chart while knowing absolutely nothing about it works.

Edited March 14, 2014 by omgwtflolbbl

[Ishki88]

 

 

Just so you know, that chart is not a very good metric in its current form. It is based off of Gottfraust's DPS calculator, which while I do like some aspects of it, is faulty in many others. For instance, his TTK calculations (Heavy Gunner TTK is VERY off), his continuous fire logic (applies to guns such as the Phage), and his status proc logic (kind of odd, assumes all procs triggered every time and does not properly deal with armor/type mitigation). I've actually gone through his source code to see his logic on all his stuff. I have not looked over his little burst fire section yet, though I don't really care to right now.

 

The chart itself generally assumes a build mixing Gas, Viral, Heat, and Electric. This is because in terms of raw, easily calculable DPS and TTK, these effects with direct health damage will come out on top without doubt (especially thanks to his proc logic) due to the fact that these deal direct damage (and a substantial amount at that, except to Grineer against which these status effects will tickle) and can stack vs. other procs such as Cold and Radiation which do no damage. All the proc damage is also calculated wrong iirc (probably using old information). For Viral against a level 100 enemy, it provides an insane bonus in terms of TTK.

 

For an example of his proc logic, imagine that you are shooting a gun with 50% status chance and you have Slash + Toxic on your weapon. According to Gottfraust's DPS simulator, every 2 shots, you will proc Slash and Toxic without fail and at the same time. This line of logic means that for every 2 shots, the you deal one proc that does 7*.35 of your weapon damage and another proc that does X*.5 of your weapon damage (no idea how many times Toxic procs). When you add in multishot and the like, this gets very out of hand. Now, this obviously isn't how it actually works or you'd see a ton more people using status builds.

 

In terms of TTK, let's just say that for the Heavy Gunner... it is completely wrong. Like, not even close to right at the moment. It calculates armor completely wrong, completely ignores Cloned Flesh, and so on.

 

If you're going to quote a source to back up your info, you should probably actually know something about that source. I honestly find it pretty odd how people will just link that chart while knowing absolutely nothing about it works.

 

 

That's cool.  But you still haven't proven Boltor Prime is outclassing Warframe's top primary weapons.

 

You literally sat here and compared it to the Boltor.  So that's your argument for proving its OP?

 

._.

 

 

Have fun with your attempt to nerf!

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

 

That's cool.  But you still haven't proven Boltor Prime is outclassing Warframe's top primary weapons.

 

You literally sat here and compared it to the Boltor.  So that's your argument for proving its OP?

 

._.

 

 

Have fun with your attempt to nerf!

...That wasn't my argument for proving the Boltor Prime is OP. That was my argument saying that the way you attempted to dismiss somebody else's argument that the Boltor Prime was OP was both stupid and wrong. Let's follow the original train here.

 

 

Then maybe you can provide arguments why its not OP, having ~20k DPS maxed (~2,5 times more than average weapons like regular Boltor, ~30% more than Soma)   instead of throwing childish insults and tantrums?

followed by

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about and just throwing numbers.  

 

And from a flat numbers, pure body shot perspective... it does outclass the Soma and the Synpase, quite handily. I'm not going to post the numbers for everything, as other people already have.

 

Edit: And just as an example of how drastic of a difference procs make in his calculator... with procs, his calculator reports an average DPS of over 55k. Remove that status chance, and you now deal an average DPS of ~13k. The only procs that actually affect the DPS readout on the calculator at this point would be the Slash and Heat procs. Status proc damage does add up, but I think you can see my point.

Edited March 14, 2014 by omgwtflolbbl

[faustias]

Is dps on paper all that matters when it comes to balancing weapons now?

most nerf and whine threads always refer paper calculations and infos from dpsframe.

 

wouldn't be surprised if OP had his jimmies rustled of the result.

 

 

 

Still... Soma is my rifle. There are many who overuses it but this one is mine.

[KazVN]

soma still a little better overall( lower  dam abit but HITSCAN

[Splatter_Puppet]

Meanwhile my Braton Prime and I are just going to sit here until DE notices us.

[Ishki88]

Meanwhile my Braton Prime and I are just going to sit here until DE notices us.

ssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Davoodoo]

Whole idea of getting high effectiveness with automatic weapons is putting shred on it and firing on crowds, you can see it on void defenses, while enemies try to go through circular doors, there most automatic weapons will shine.

Sure on single target at mid range where you can pack all shots into head soma might have advantage but when shooting at crowds you cant aim at head cause you lose precious punch through hits and thats where boltor shines. 

 

Endless missions consist of crowds and not single targets.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Davoodoo

[RustyNaps]

Regular Boltor is pretty OP too. Forma it three times and you're able to get both Grineer weaknesses in some very high numbers http://goo.gl/MU81cl this is a very powerful weapon towards Grineer for new players.

[7grims]

dont get u ppl, its a good gun, not a win win win everything and always good gun.

 

or you ppl just like to randomly point and scream "OOOOP!!!"

[Kato-san]

If it does not do more DPS then Phage then it is not Grossly Overpowered... learn your weapons.

[YuriYongWonhiSaranghae]

Hate these QQ OP threads.