Why Founders Pack Exclusivity Is Hard To Defend

[OniDax]

i understand that you supported the game for the p.c. and thats cool...but Sony and DE had everything to do with it being on the ps4.

 

If it weren't for money from PC players, I guarantee you there wouldn't have been a PS4 version.

[(PSN)octus]

If it weren't for money from PC players, I guarantee you there wouldn't have been a PS4 version.

ok

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Excalibur Vandal

You mean Excalibur Vandal only available in a pack on PS store for PS4? And it is also present on new mod art and in PC codex, but will never be available on PC? In this case I admit, it sort of brings the versions on par. Although I don't like this direction.

I still think they should release Founders pack on PS4 only for a limited time. They made a mistake there. Otherwise remove any evidence of these items existense from PS4 version like they removed any evidence of past PC events from PS4 player profile.

Sony will not allow any account transfers until PS store is the place that offer all gear/something exclusive. I'd rather them add missing stuff to PS store then make PC version permanently incomplete as well, but hey. It's only my OPINION.

[Barbetti]

Create and release alternate Prime versions of Excalibur, Lato, and Skana into the Void. Problem solved. Call them Excalibur/Lato/Skana Prime β or something. Founders still retain exclusivity of their Excalibur, Lato, and Skana Primes, everyone else gets access to a Prime'd version of the aforementioned, although with different art and whatnot.

Or maybe instead of Lato and Skana Prime alternates, have Aklato and Dual Skana Primes (maybe with different art to further differentiate them from the Founders items) with an alternate Excalibur Prime. Or Lex Prime and Cronus Prime

Edited March 18, 2014 by Barbetti

[CandyDragon]

Create and release alternate Prime versions of Excalibur, Lato, and Skana into the Void. Problem solved. Call them Excalibur/Lato/Skana Prime β or something. Founders still retain exclusivity of their Excalibur, Lato, and Skana Primes, everyone else gets access to a Prime'd version of the aforementioned, although with different art and whatnot.

Wouldn't really solve much, you'd still have people doing exactly what is occurring in this thread now.

 

While I do support that idea, I don't think it would help.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Nariala

[Barbetti]

Wouldn't really solve much, you'd still have people doing exactly what is occurring in this thread now.

 

While I do support that idea, I don't think it would help.

It would surely help alleviate the issue. With my solution, we would get an in-game obtainable Excalibur/Lato/Skana Prime. It may not be the Prime versions from the Founders Pack, but it would be a Prime version of them. Those that want THE versions from the Founders Pack would be s.o.o.l.

 

Although I don't agree with DE's decision to maintain their exclusivity (I see it as content being put behind a pay-wall that should have otherwise been earn-able like everything else in the game), I respect it to not dispute it. 

[Kalenath]

It would surely help alleviate the issue. With my solution, we would get an in-game obtainable Excalibur/Lato/Skana Prime. It may not be the Prime versions from the Founders Pack, but it would be a Prime version of them. Those that want THE versions from the Founders Pack would be s.o.o.l.

 

Although I don't agree with DE's decision to maintain their exclusivity (I see it as content being put behind a pay-wall that should have otherwise been earn-able like everything else in the game), I respect it to not dispute it. 

 

I truly wish more people felt like you.

 

FAR too many people think that screaming about things will get what they want. Sometimes it works. Some retail stores don't want the bad publicity that comes from customers walking out the door screaming. Sometimes it doesn't. EA and Ubisoft couldn't care less if they P*** off customers. They have zillions more, why should they?

 

I actually AGREE that exclusivity is a bad thing. But... Just HANDING people things they did not earn is ALSO a bad thing. A bad precedent and a bad idea in general. A contract is a contract. Even EA and Ubisoft DO abide by their contracts. Read the fine print sometime. They do abide by their written contracts, but the contracts do not always say what players assume they say. (Reading the EULA is time consuming and difficult which is why so many players don't bother and get surprised when EA and Ubi screw them over. Legally.) Asking DE to break a contract just to satisfy people's need for in game cosmetic items is just wrong.

 

But what am I saying? Who gives a S*** about right and wrong? This is the internet for gods sake. This isn't about right or wrong. This is about haves and have nots. The have nots want what the haves got. So the dance begins again...

 

[Royce_Bracket]

Ugh, why is this stupid thread still going on... I want the Candy Cane scythe skin, I want the Wraith Twin Vipers, I want Primed Chamber, I want the CBT Vandals, I want the Machete Wraith, I want Lato Prime, I want Skana Prime, I want the Misa Prime Syandana. I want the Phased skins.Will I ever get them? No, and that's how it should be. Virtually all multiplayer games like this have some amount of exclusive items, whether they be behind an event or pay wall. Warframe is the same. Why is it taking people so long to get that?

Edited March 18, 2014 by ArdentSky

[Seox]

Create and release alternate Prime versions of Excalibur, Lato, and Skana into the Void. Problem solved. Call them Excalibur/Lato/Skana Prime β or something. Founders still retain exclusivity of their Excalibur, Lato, and Skana Primes, everyone else gets access to a Prime'd version of the aforementioned, although with different art and whatnot.

Or maybe instead of Lato and Skana Prime alternates, have Aklato and Dual Skana Primes (maybe with different art to further differentiate them from the Founders items) with an alternate Excalibur Prime. Or Lex Prime and Cronus Prime

 

"Corrupted wish" solutions are a load of crap and you know it.

 

Exclusive means exclusive. It doesn't mean change some pixels around, modify the shields and say "But it's not the SAME!"

 

Not to mentioned, you say that it would help because while these versions wouldn't be -the same-, they'd be something.

 

That's what excalibur, the skana, and the lato are for. They're not THE SAME versions, but they're something.

 

If you retort with "That's not enough!", then you have to ask yourself why that is. Do you really think people will stop asking just because you make another not-quite-the-same version? There's a reason they're complaining even though these things are merely cosmetic.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Seox

[Zerrien]

Create and release alternate Prime versions of Excalibur, Lato, and Skana into the Void. Problem solved. Call them Excalibur/Lato/Skana Prime β or something. Founders still retain exclusivity of their Excalibur, Lato, and Skana Primes, everyone else gets access to a Prime'd version of the aforementioned, although with different art and whatnot.

Or maybe instead of Lato and Skana Prime alternates, have Aklato and Dual Skana Primes (maybe with different art to further differentiate them from the Founders items) with an alternate Excalibur Prime. Or Lex Prime and Cronus Prime

 

Posting my support for this idea. I might've said it in a few more words in the past, but this is an acceptable fix to me.

 

Introduce something that acts exactly the same as Excalibur Prime, so players can earn Excalibur 'β', and then Excalibur Prime can be buffed, and people still have access to these buffs.

 

Just another reskin for Excalibur is all it will be.

[Seox]

Posting my support for this idea. I might've said it in a few more words in the past, but this is an acceptable fix to me.

 

Introduce something that acts exactly the same as Excalibur Prime, so players can earn Excalibur 'β', and then Excalibur Prime can be buffed, and people still have access to these buffs.

 

Just another reskin for Excalibur is all it will be.

 

Hey, you're right! And people won't really care since it's only a cosmetic variant of excali-

 

 

Wait....

[Zerrien]

Hey, you're right! And people won't really care since it's only a cosmetic variant of excali-

 

 

Wait....

 

But... Excalibur Prime isn't a cosmetic variant... It's worth Mastery Points, and since Rhino Prime is an upgrade over Rhino, then there are design elements of whether or not Excalibur Prime can be upgraded.

 

Also, replacing an exclusive cosmetic, with another cosmetic isn't a problem to me. It's just that we're hardly through... 4? 5? Warframe Primes, out of... 18? So, we need to wait for ~14ish more Primes before we have the chance to see if Excalibur get's a new alternate skin? Of course this is assuming they won't mix it up, but given what we've gotten thus far...

[Seox]

But... Excalibur Prime isn't a cosmetic variant... It's worth Mastery Points, and since Rhino Prime is an upgrade over Rhino, then there are design elements of whether or not Excalibur Prime can be upgraded.

 

Also, replacing an exclusive cosmetic, with another cosmetic isn't a problem to me. It's just that we're hardly through... 4? 5? Warframe Primes, out of... 18? So, we need to wait for ~14ish more Primes before we have the chance to see if Excalibur get's a new alternate skin? Of course this is assuming they won't mix it up, but given what we've gotten thus far...

 

Yes, and if you create a new excalibur prime to intentionally sidestep DE's promise, you now have two excal primes that are worth mastery points - one of them still can't be obtained. This puts us right back at square one with people complaining that they can't get the pittance of mastery points. The only response is to make it so that you can only get mastery from either prime one time, but we could easily solve that problem by just dropping the excal prime mastery points in the first place and not making another frame.

 

And this is assuming that it's even ok to intentionally twist DE's words to make another set of founder items while still claiming they're exclusive.

[Zerrien]

Yes, and if you create a new excalibur prime to intentionally sidestep DE's promise, you now have two excal primes that are worth mastery points - one of them still can't be obtained. This puts us right back at square one with people complaining that they can't get the pittance of mastery points. The only response is to make it so that you can only get mastery from either prime one time, but we could easily solve that problem by just dropping the excal prime mastery points in the first place and not making another frame.

 

And this is assuming that it's even ok to intentionally twist DE's words to make another set of founder items while still claiming they're exclusive.

 

Excalibur, Lato and Skana Prime are gameplay elements. They have a place in Lore (Excalibur Prime being the very first Warframe, ever, yes?) as well as a place in the game itself. Rhino Prime is currently a blatant upgrade over Rhino. The Developers have back themselves into a corner over this matter, as, if they wanted to make all Primes alternate/upgrades over their successors, then Excalibur will always be left out.

 

This is a BAD thing in game design, all things should have a specific theme/motif/method in determining their abilities. If they went back and improved Mag Prime, Frost Prime, Ember Prime, they'd need to stop short of Excalibur Prime simply because it's hyper-exclusive, and completely limited. This is a BAD thing. This exact same principle applies with the weapons, given that Boltor Prime is CURRENTLY one of the top weapons out there.

 

tl;dr? All exclusives that are connected to gameplay in someway are -bad-.

 

However, in this case, of an Excalibur Beta or 2.0, or whatever. The Mastery Points can be shared between Excalibur Prime and Beta, so it takes the highest rank of either, and adds it to your Mastery Total. Or, make it so Founders don't get 2.0, as they already have Prime.

[Seox]

Excalibur, Lato and Skana Prime are gameplay elements. They have a place in Lore (Excalibur Prime being the very first Warframe, ever, yes?) as well as a place in the game itself. Rhino Prime is currently a blatant upgrade over Rhino. The Developers have back themselves into a corner over this matter, as, if they wanted to make all Primes alternate/upgrades over their successors, then Excalibur will always be left out.

 

This is a BAD thing in game design, all things should have a specific theme/motif/method in determining their abilities. If they went back and improved Mag Prime, Frost Prime, Ember Prime, they'd need to stop short of Excalibur Prime simply because it's hyper-exclusive, and completely limited. This is a BAD thing. This exact same principle applies with the weapons, given that Boltor Prime is CURRENTLY one of the top weapons out there.

 

tl;dr? All exclusives that are connected to gameplay in someway are -bad-.

 

However, in this case, of an Excalibur Beta or 2.0, or whatever. The Mastery Points can be shared between Excalibur Prime and Beta, so it takes the highest rank of either, and adds it to your Mastery Total. Or, make it so Founders don't get 2.0, as they already have Prime.

 

 

Again, if you're going to add a copy of the frame and then say that mastery only counts once, just do that between Excal and Excal prime and cut out the middleman. You're creating a false dichotomy by implying a need that isn't there.

 

On the superiority of prime frames, Rhino has 0.1 higher sprint speed. This is absolutely insubstantial. It's a quality of life thing - only about half the enemies in the game have weapons that are not hitscan and can be dodged, and they compensate for your direction. You dodge them through parkour, not through straight run speed.

 

Similarly, Excal prime's ~10% increased shield recharge is fairly insubstantial compared to regular Excal - he's still entirely playable and feasible. 

 

You're positing the following:

 

1. There are some prime frames with buffs over their original counterparts

2. All prime frames must be consistent

3. It would be wrong to make a superior frame exclusive

4. We cannot make the exclusive content free to all

5. We should make a duplicate of the exclusive content

 

The problem here is that 1 is minor enough that power creep/obsolescence is avoided. That's minor enough as to be insubstantial.

 

As far as 2. is concerned, what NECESSITATES consistency across all frames? Namely, we all know that Excal prime was a founder item - nothing says we can't make an exception for that and make him fall in line with regular excal. 

 

3. According to what? This is the only frame in the entire game that is 100% exclusive. They offered it initially as an exclusive, and while that may have been a bad idea, we are now faced with two solutions - honor the promise or don't. Honoring it is the lesser of two evils because it doesn't undermine their trustworthiness.

 

5. Presumes that it's not just an underhanded way to get around it being "exclusive" - it's just a monkey's paw story. "Well, we DID say they'd never be obtainable in game again...we never said we wouldn't make another version JUST LIKE IT!!!" I'd be just as pissed if they did that as if they outright released the items, and I'm surely not alone.

[Aggh]

F2p games transition seamlessly from obt to release so it's a moot point.  The whole point of a founders pack is to get early financial support for the game.  Early founders were putting money into the game  with no certainty that the game would get to the point that it is now.  Warframe is doing pretty well for itself right now so reopening the founders program wouldn't really present the same kind of situation.

 

Why isn't this closed?  DE has closed similar threads before.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Aggh

[(PSN)MyTagForHalo]

I think ill inject my two cents into here.

 

 

I dont see what "risk" founders took. Kickstarter supporters? Yes i can see that, kickstarter programs are always a risk. People who paid for a excalibur prime access packs afterwards? Nope not really. 

 

Once you start "funding" a game that is already playable. You are no longer supporting a "risk" especially when it is being developed by a parent company who has been around for a while. 

 

So all this talk about "oh, well you didnt take a risk" is total bs. A founder is not a founder once a game has been established.

 

However the argument of "exclusive is exclusive" is only valid as long as people are begging for free stuff. Iff they did re-release the pack, exclusive would remain as it is exclusive to those who bought the pack. wow. there is some logic.. If people want to pay $250 for the packs, you guys shouldnt have a issue with that. You are not losing anything, they didnt devalue it, nothing has changed. Except maybe the inability to flash your toys to every n00b. (darn..)

 

 

So PS4 missed it by a week and that makes you some superior being. What makes it worse is that even though the PS4 was released, they were in such short supply that many people couldnt even get their hands on it. 

Edited March 18, 2014 by (PS4)MyTagForHalo

[Barbetti]

"Corrupted wish" solutions are a load of crap and you know it.

 

Exclusive means exclusive. It doesn't mean change some pixels around, modify the shields and say "But it's not the SAME!"

 

Not to mentioned, you say that it would help because while these versions wouldn't be -the same-, they'd be something.

 

That's what excalibur, the skana, and the lato are for. They're not THE SAME versions, but they're something.

 

If you retort with "That's not enough!", then you have to ask yourself why that is. Do you really think people will stop asking just because you make another not-quite-the-same version? There's a reason they're complaining even though these things are merely cosmetic.

I don't understand what you're trying to get at here. There's no need to release alternate versions of Excalibur Prime, Lato Prime, and Skana Prime because the standard Excalibur, Lato, and Skana are still in the game? By that logic, there shouldn't be multiple skins of any Warframes and Weapons because one already exists, because "they're not the same, but they're something."

 

The issue, I see, is that there is content that would otherwise be obtainable like nearly everything else in the game behind what is basically a pay wall. Yes, the Founders Pack and the rewards it gave were meant for early support of the game. However, DE should have never made Excalibur, Lato, and Skana Prime solely exclusive to Founders. It should have been a timed exclusive with a later release in the Void. But DE is adamant in their decision and I respect that even though I disagree.

 

By releasing alternate versions of them with different art, stats, and a name to differentiate, into the Void like every other Prime item, some of the issue is solved. Founders still retain their versions of them. No promises broken. 

 

And no, this won't stop people from whining and begging and complaining about Founders having exclusive access to Excalibur, Lato, and Skana Prime. Nothing will stop those people from complaining. But what you need to understand is that those people, although loud, are a minority. Even more so in the forum community.

[umm_me]

Its simple... they committed to something, they should stand by it.

 

Even if you are one of the whiners that feels you are a special case for getting around this commitment, you should be disgusted if they went back on their word about this.

[(PSN)MyTagForHalo]

Its simple... they committed to something, they should stand by it.

 

Even if you are one of the whiners that feels you are a special case for getting around this commitment, you should be disgusted if they went back on their word about this.

I need someone to do me a favor and link that dumb founder's poster that says "exclusive" on it. I cant seem to find it for the life of me.

 

Thing is, if i read that the first time, it says the items are exclusive to the pack. So by that sense, a re-release wouldnt mean going back on their word.

 

The reason they had to go and say "we wont re-release the pack" is because "founders" whined and complained that it wasnt "fair" until they gave in.

 

So id say whiners are completely justified. And please, in today's day and age, Ill believe you will keep your word, but im not surprised if you dont. i wish people would stop backing compainies into corners.

 

No matter what you say, the reason these packs werent re-released is because people are selfish and must have their exclusive pack items exclusively for themselves.

 

Edit: Due to poor word choice used a a circumvention device.

Edited March 18, 2014 by (PS4)MyTagForHalo

[Kalenath]

I need someone to do me a favor and link that dumb founder's poster that says "exclusive" on it. I cant seem to find it for the life of me.

 

Thing is, if i read that the first time, it says the items are exclusive to the pack. So by that sense, a re-release wouldnt mean going back on their word.

 

The reason they had to go and say "we wont re-release the pack" is because "founders" whined and complained that it wasnt "fair" until they gave in.

 

So id say whiners are completely justified. And please, in today's day and age, no one's word means anything. That is what lawyers are for. Im not saying it is wrong to lie, im saying that people are taking a company too seriously.

 

No matter what you say, the reason these packs werent re-released is because people are selfish and must have their exclusive pack items exclusively for themselves.

 

Well, if no one's word means anything, why should we believe anything YOU say?

 

I know. I know. Double standards apply. Everyone ELSE is totally liars, cheats, thieves and assorted other scum and you are so selfless it just isn't funny.

 

Thank you for proving that no one should trust YOU.

 

Oh and... watch that first step...

 

Edited March 18, 2014 by Kalenath

[NevanChambers]

Excalibur, Lato and Skana Prime are gameplay elements. They have a place in Lore (Excalibur Prime being the very first Warframe, ever, yes?) as well as a place in the game itself. Rhino Prime is currently a blatant upgrade over Rhino. The Developers have back themselves into a corner over this matter, as, if they wanted to make all Primes alternate/upgrades over their successors, then Excalibur will always be left out.

 

This is a BAD thing in game design, all things should have a specific theme/motif/method in determining their abilities. If they went back and improved Mag Prime, Frost Prime, Ember Prime, they'd need to stop short of Excalibur Prime simply because it's hyper-exclusive, and completely limited. This is a BAD thing. This exact same principle applies with the weapons, given that Boltor Prime is CURRENTLY one of the top weapons out there.

 

tl;dr? All exclusives that are connected to gameplay in someway are -bad-.

 

However, in this case, of an Excalibur Beta or 2.0, or whatever. The Mastery Points can be shared between Excalibur Prime and Beta, so it takes the highest rank of either, and adds it to your Mastery Total. Or, make it so Founders don't get 2.0, as they already have Prime.

So.. In addition to knuckling under to whiners who cannot accept a simple "no" for an answer you seek to additionally punish the founders for reasons. You have proposed the worst solution ever. I think DE can now safely auto lock all these topics now, the bottom of the barrel has now been scraped.

[(PSN)MyTagForHalo]

Well, if no one's word means anything, why should we believe anything YOU say?

 

I know. I know. Double standards apply. Everyone ELSE is totally liars, cheats, thieves and assorted other scum and you are so selfless it just isn't funny.

 

 

Watch that first step.

glad that is the only thing you picked out of that. Im just  saying, i dont hold people to that high of standards. Ill believe you will keep your word, but im not surprised if you dont. (Ie, people saying "ill quit if they..") Granted it isnt the greatest word choice ever.

 

Did you even bother to read the post? or are you jsut looking to go around the issue like everyone else? While you are at it read my post above that. 

 

Edit: i also edited my other post.

Edited March 18, 2014 by (PS4)MyTagForHalo

[(PSN)fingernageldreck]

I wish people would start to derail with funny cat gifs, so we can finally get this thread closed...

[Ionus]

I think ill inject my two cents into here.

 

 

I dont see what "risk" founders took. Kickstarter supporters? Yes i can see that, kickstarter programs are always a risk. People who paid for a excalibur prime access packs afterwards? Nope not really. 

 

Once you start "funding" a game that is already playable. You are no longer supporting a "risk" especially when it is being developed by a parent company who has been around for a while. 

 

So all this talk about "oh, well you didnt take a risk" is total bs. A founder is not a founder once a game has been established.

 

However the argument of "exclusive is exclusive" is only valid as long as people are begging for free stuff. Iff they did re-release the pack, exclusive would remain as it is exclusive to those who bought the pack. wow. there is some logic.. If people want to pay $250 for the packs, you guys shouldnt have a issue with that. You are not losing anything, they didnt devalue it, nothing has changed. Except maybe the inability to flash your toys to every n00b. (darn..)

 

 

So PS4 missed it by a week and that makes you some superior being. What makes it worse is that even though the PS4 was released, they were in such short supply that many people couldnt even get their hands on it.

When the founders program began back in open beta, there was a total of one tileset(corpus ship), a fistful of enemy types, and less than half as many weapons and warframes as we do now. Bugs were everywhere (flying cargo crates anyone?) and this was all run by an independent developer.

That's right, Digital Extremes has NO parent company to support it. So in the case Warframe had crash and burned, Founder money would have evaporated.

So no, don't say all founders had a safe deal.