Epilepsy A Legal Issue

[Agent_of_Change]

Well sure, but Warframe is already "labelled" as epileptic-endangering.

There's absolutely no need to hassle everyone who already knows and has accepted this obvious, obvious fact at every startup, as "BloodHungryKitten" suggests.

 

I concur, I apologize If I wasn't clear on that point.  

 

Whoo reads TOS.. really.. who?

xept lawyers.

 

This... This is just another issue entirely.  IIRC there is a movement (an actual legal movement) to render many TOS and EULA agreements null and void because they have come to the point where no average person can actually be expected to read and understand them, a fact taht is used by some in the industry to include abusive clauses (*cough* EA), bizzare legalese regarding use (*cough* Apple), potentially unethical ownership claims (*cough* SONY), and allowing intrusive data collection (*cough* Microsoft).  But that is besides the point, this particular TOS is not any more or less cumbersome than the average and beyond that as has been stated ad nauseum if you have epilepsy and are properly educated about your condition (your parents and doctors responsibilities) that video games may affect you should be no surprise.

[Yousho]

the biggest6 problems are frames like nova with bright pink explosions.

Is there like some kind of 'Godwin's Law' on these fourms?

OK, that's it, I'm coining it now.

Yousho's Law:  "As a discussion on the official Warframe Forums grows longer, the probability of a complaint involving Nova approaches 1."

Edited March 12, 2014 by Yousho

[Salenstormwing]

While the whole situation might be very unwell for some folks, the fact is, DE is fine and there's nothing someone can do legally against them. If you want to suggest ways to make the game more accessible to folks with Epilepsy, great, but don't expect huge legal backlash against the company who's TOS says "Derp, don't play our game if you go into a violent seizure while playing it", and you disregard it.

[Yousho]

While the whole situation might be very unwell for some folks, the fact is, DE is fine and there's nothing someone can do legally against them. If you want to suggest ways to make the game more accessible to folks with Epilepsy, great, but don't expect huge legal backlash against the company who's TOS says "Derp, don't play our game if you go into a violent seizure while playing it", and you disregard it.

Legality is not the only issue that exists in the world. 

Just because something isn't legally wrong, does not mean it isn't wrong. 

It's a sticky wicket either way, though. 

[KoshLovesYou]

It would be great if there was an option of our graphics settings to tune down the lights and flashes intensity.

This. And you know, better designed traps.

But on the OP side, yeah, looks like DE is technically covered. Doesn't make the current situation cool, though.

Edited March 12, 2014 by KoshLovesYou

[Salenstormwing]

Legality is not the only issue that exists in the world. 

Just because something isn't legally wrong, does not mean it isn't wrong. 

It's a sticky wicket either way, though. 

 

Legality isn't the only issue... except when you're arguing about how it's a Legal issue. Which is the subject line of this thread.

 

That's like saying the color Blue isn't a color issue... when describing the colors of the rainbow.

[Sinaqui]

Wait, your first instinct was to ask a lawyer about the legal issues rather than consulting a medical professional about whether or not this form of flashing can trigger epilepsy?

[RoboDoge]

I AM AN AMERICAN AND THEREFORE AUTOMATICALLY IGNORANT OF EPILEPSY AND CAUSALITY

PLEASE FORGIVE MY AMERICANISM

Well, you guys have "Coffee is hot" on your hot coffee cups. Who would have guessed that hot coffee might be hot?

[Etsoree]

Pretty much every single video game nowadays have seizure warnings because the littlest set of light patterns (even if seemingly innocuous) can set some folks' epilepsy off. Warframe has it too in their Terms of Use agreement (which you agree to before you play). 

 

Also, usually if you have that severe and sensitive of epilepsy you shouldn't be playing video games at all for precisely that reason.

 

True, but with a lot of the players so far complaining about it...

[Felandi]

Just remove the white-screen effects and be done with it. They add nothing to the game, they rather make it more off-putting. An entirely white flash contrasted to the normally subdued colour scheme of warframe physically HURTS!

 

That's right, these lightning flashes cause us literal pain.

 

We like you, so please do not hurt us.

[SevenLetterKWord]

Surely, if they are going to have something THAT likely to induce a censure, they should make a VERY obvious disclaimer, for moral reasons.

Morality > Legality. 

Don't moralize to us.

Anyone reasonable would expect an action video game to have flashing lights.

Anyone with a history of epileptic events would search the ToS for a specific reference to such hazards.

 

Whoo reads TOS.. really.. who?

xept lawyers.

You should, because you're governed by it.

Secondly, as I said above, any reasonable person with a history of epileptic events would search the ToS for a specific reference to such hazards.

 

I concur, I apologize If I wasn't clear on that point.  

You were. I'm just sayin'.

 

Well, you guys have "Coffee is hot" on your hot coffee cups. Who would have guessed that hot coffee might be hot?

That warning is a legal safeguard to protect companies against dumbasses.

Some Americans are dumbasses, sure. But not all Americans, like you implied.

And I guarantee you, whatever country you're from has its fair share of dumbasses, too.

 

Just remove the white-screen effects and be done with it. They add nothing to the game, they rather make it more off-putting. An entirely white flash contrasted to the normally subdued colour scheme of warframe physically HURTS!

Right.

Even though there are no legal grounds for action against DE here, the flashing lights still kcufing suck.

They're extremely irritating and detract from gameplay.

Kill them off.

Replace them with increased lighting bloom, or HUD/Minimap tearing (like a magnetic proc, but without the energy drain).

[Yousho]

Don't moralize to us.

Anyone reasonable would expect an action video game to have flashing lights.

Anyone with a history of epileptic events would search the ToS for a specific reference to such hazards.

 

 

Every game has one, so unless elliptic people just don't play video games they need a way to distinguish 'Doesn't actually give you seizures but in the ToS just to cover themselves' from 'will likely give you seizures.' 

 

Edited March 13, 2014 by Yousho

[NanakoAC]

if you have epilepsy you should not be playing videogames, period.

Much the same way as if you have no legs, you should not be running races.

And if you have a deadly nut allergy, you should not be munching a snickers.

 

 

Dealing with the limitations of your own body is your job. It's not reasonable to expect people to adapt to you.

 

i have circulatory issues, my blood pressure is unnaturally low and it doesnt circulate heat as efficiently. i deal with it by wearing gloves 95% of the time, i don't ask everyone to turn up their heating.

Edited March 13, 2014 by NanakoAC

[BirdsOfPrey]

aaah, the Americas

the land where people sue mcdonalds for making them fat (*cough* eating way too much) and the like

the land where people consult a lawyer before common sense

 

even if I think they should add an option to remove or lessen the flashes, the OP started off wrong by mentioning legal and lawyer in his post

[Outdated]

if you have epilepsy you should not be playing videogames, period.

Much the same way as if you have no legs, you should not be running races.

And if you have a deadly nut allergy, you should not be munching a snickers.

 

Seriously your post makes me mad and angry.

DON'T TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY CAN DO AND WHAT THEY CAN'T!

 

All these people have every right to do what they wan't and you got NO RIGHT to keep them away from it.

Is it risky? will they not be able to compete? Who cares it is their choice and I am quiet sure they know their limits and risks far better than YOU.

 

Oh and as for eating nuts while beeing alergic to it oh what a fine comparision to epilepsy.

[LunchBoxKilla]

Seriously your post makes me mad and angry.

DON'T TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY CAN DO AND WHAT THEY CAN'T!

 

All these people have every right to do what they wan't and you got NO RIGHT to keep them away from it.

Is it risky? will they not be able to compete? Who cares it is their choice and I am quiet sure they know their limits and risks far better than YOU.

 

Oh and as for eating nuts while beeing alergic to it oh what a fine comparision to epilepsy.

It is a fine comparison.... Doing both, eating a a snicker bar wile having a peanut allergy or being epileptic while playing video games could result in death.

 

There is a line in these posts and you clearly passed it.. You need to get up walk away and reevaluate your thoughts.

 

As stated before DE holds no legal obligations if some one DOES NOT READ THE TOS, KNOWING FULLY THEY HAVE EPILEPTIC SEIZURES DUE TO FLASHING LIGHTS AND JUMP KNEE DEEP INTO THIS GAME.

[RoboDoge]

Seriously your post makes me mad and angry.

DON'T TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY CAN DO AND WHAT THEY CAN'T!

 

All these people have every right to do what they wan't and you got NO RIGHT to keep them away from it.

Is it risky? will they not be able to compete? Who cares it is their choice and I am quiet sure they know their limits and risks far better than YOU.

 

Oh and as for eating nuts while beeing alergic to it oh what a fine comparision to epilepsy.

Would you fire a bullet into your head if you know that whould kill you?

 

 

If you have disorder, normal person would do anything to avoid getting it worse. Whatever you do is at your own risk, no one is forcing you to play games if they are harming you. And you cannot blame game companies for making them as they are. Your disorder, your risk.

[SevenLetterKWord]

Seriously your post makes me mad and angry.

DON'T TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY CAN DO AND WHAT THEY CAN'T!

 

All these people have every right to do what they wan't and you got NO RIGHT to keep them away from it.

Is it risky? will they not be able to compete? Who cares it is their choice and I am quiet sure they know their limits and risks far better than YOU.

 

Oh and as for eating nuts while beeing alergic to it oh what a fine comparision to epilepsy.

NanakoAC's point, as anyone with an occipital lobe can see, was that people who choose to engage in activities which are inappropriate for them should not be surprised if they end up the worse for it.

You, however... you...

[ServareVitas]

If I had epilepsy I would play at my own risk. If warframe bought out a previously unknown epileptic predisposition and I did have a seizure I wouldn't blame warframe because it can theoretically happen to anyone that isn't aware. 

[Outdated]

First of all I'd like to apologice for my tone it is a very personal mater for me.

What I will not budge from is my opinion here, that you see me in the wrong is no wonder, it is why I am getting so angry with these things.

It's how society acts in general on matters like these and I am not gonna change it here.

 

But I will try non the less:

So take back a step and start reading and not what you believe you are reading.

 

 

A: why did I get angry:

 

seriously the more people are constrained by their health the more they want to fight their limits.

 

Don't steal them their chance at a bit of sunshine. 

They know all well what they are risking and as the disclaimer made sure they can't sue anyway,

Not that any of them would.

Their parents might try, but not they.

 

It's hard enough trying to keep your stomach in while sitting next to your friends who are having a good time trying to be just one of the guys.

So don't patronice them.

 

Did you see the captain america movie? How he desperatly wanted into the army? Thats what I am talking about, there are people out there who would die just to have what you all have. Good health, the chance to go for a walk and just be treated like anyone else.

For you it may be worthless to them it means the world.

 

So if it comes to things like this, you meet someone who has no legs, treat them like you would anyone else, don't see a criple, see the man.

And if all it needs is a little consideration to make things happen for them why stand in the way?

In this particular game for example: why defend blinding flashlights that add nothing to the game?

Just because people like them shouldn't be here anyway?

 

 

well ...  not sure if this is neccessary but to put the facts straight

 

B: Why it is a bad comparison?

 

a allergic reaction will trigger any time it get's the diagnosed impuls.

Alergic to Peanuts + eating snickers = reaction.

eacht time this is repeated the reaction will get stronger leading eventually to death if untreated.

 

the same is untrue for the given case the player wanted to state.

 

1: only a very minor fraction of people that have epilepsy more precise those that have Reflexive epilepsy ( I think it's called in english).

will react to visual imput.

 

2: for the majority of these the reaction is minor leading at worst to a black out ( yes that's rather serious but those that have it know it then and can decide on their own)

 

3: reflexive epilepsy usually goes away when you grow up. So even if you had it before you might be well by now.

 

 

Well that's all from me.

 

good night and good health to you and your family