What Exactly Is Ash's Role In The Game?

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

Ash is fun, but he really isn't enough of a powerhouse to offset his lack of utility.

 

I still think he's better than Excalibur, who only has two useful abilities (Radial Blind and Radial Javelin), and two very dubiously useful abilities (Slash Dash and the very useless Super Jump).

[SquirmyBurrito]

If Ash were to be buffed, here's how I'd do it:

 

His Shurikens, if they don't kill, mark the enemy for death granting a damage bonus of 10/15/20/25 percent for 5/7/9/12 seconds. Enemies marked glow whatever colour Ash's Energy is.

 

Smoke Screen drops a Smoke Bomb that disorients enemies and leaves them stunned for 5 seconds. The Smoke Bomb also actually creates a smoke effect that persists. Teammates in the radius of the Smoke Bomb area are also granted invisibility for as long as they remain in the smoke, gaining the melee damage boost that comes with it. To perhaps make the enemies visible while you're cutting them to pieces in smoke, they glow the colour of Ash's Energy.

 

Teleport also grants Ash invisibility for a flat 1.5 or 2 seconds allowing him to either get a melee combo in, or a charge attack. With the Melee 2.0 systems coming, I can see this being quite useful for maintaining your combo, making Ash the "Melee 2.0" frame. This also lets him safely get right into the heart of a group of enemies to drop a Smoke Screen.

 

For Blade Storm, enemies that survive are left bleeding for an additional 250/500/750/1000 damage, with their movement slowed by 10/15/25/40 percent for the duration of the bleed. They're also marked for death.

 

So, the idea is to basically make him the frame to go to if you really want to Melee. If we want to go all the way, I'd make the damage bonuses melee specific only. I think this maintains Ash as a very damage-oriented stealth frame, with Loki being the supportive stealth frame, disarming enemies, deflecting enemy fire, or just pulling teammates out of sticky situations. Obviously, the values of everything could probably use tweaking, but I just wanted my concept of Ash out there first and foremost.

 

On Shuriken- As long as the damage buff doesn't stack and isn't increased by power strength mods I have no issue with these changes. Although, the addition of a guaranteed bleed proc might have been a much more simple change.

 

On smoke screen- I sure hope you don't mean that it only works in the area that Ash uses it... Because if an Ash can't pop SS and continue running through the mission while invisible that is going to cause some annoyance among the Ash users.

 

On Teleport- I think it would be better if DE just granted him a brief period of being unable to draw aggro (to simulate enemy disorientation when their target suddenly disappears). This would still allow Ash to do his thing, but without randomly turning invisible. Ash can already do most of this though since he auto-staggers the target of his teleport.

 

On Blade Storm- The bleed and movement speed debuff are nice, but I don't exactly agree with the extra damage buff. That's basically M-Prime but without all the boom.

 

The problem with trying to center Ash around melee is that you often end up causing problems for those Ash users who don't want to focus on melee.

These changes would increase his desirability, but they wouldn't make him 'the melee frame' since Excal, Loki, and Valkyr still exist.

[Tulzscha]

Moved to the proper section.

[MaverickZero]

Teleport to your fallen teammates to heal them up. Oh wait, you will switch places, the distance will be the same(unless if you use a decoy to get there, but there is 2 works and 2 amount of energy  spend)

Use your invisibility because you're so weak and vulnerable, this is why your invisibility has a bigger time...just for balance. My Ash Smokescreen it's just to heal fallen teammates without taking damage.

Go and use your all godness Disarm on Inffesteds it's super-ultra-mega-blaster-USEFULL

You see? I can be all close-minded and make some frame looks like it is useless, just like you did, it's easy.

Is not the frame fault if you don't know how to use it properly, it's yours.The frame just offers playstyles. I say the same thing to all people that says that Loki, Ash and Trinity are useless frames. But what I'd say to a guy with a Rhino avatar.... press #4 to win? Looks more your type of playstyle.

I play Ash, don't get me wrong, I love him but he has critical flaws. Btw smokescreen doesn't work midair I hope you know that. 

[Zanzura]

On Shuriken- As long as the damage buff doesn't stack and isn't increased by power strength mods I have no issue with these changes. Although, the addition of a guaranteed bleed proc might have been a much more simple change.

 

On smoke screen- I sure hope you don't mean that it only works in the area that Ash uses it... Because if an Ash can't pop SS and continue running through the mission while invisible that is going to cause some annoyance among the Ash users.

 

On Teleport- I think it would be better if DE just granted him a brief period of being unable to draw aggro (to simulate enemy disorientation when their target suddenly disappears). This would still allow Ash to do his thing, but without randomly turning invisible. Ash can already do most of this though since he auto-staggers the target of his teleport.

 

On Blade Storm- The bleed and movement speed debuff are nice, but I don't exactly agree with the extra damage buff. That's basically M-Prime but without all the boom.

 

The problem with trying to center Ash around melee is that you often end up causing problems for those Ash users who don't want to focus on melee.

These changes would increase his desirability, but they wouldn't make him 'the melee frame' since Excal, Loki, and Valkyr still exist.

 

Regarding Smoke Screen, I should clarify that Ash still gets his own independent invisibility that persists outside of the smoke. It is mainly to make his invisibility also a team buff and function as CC better as well.

 

The reason I gave Ash invisibility on Teleport was to allow him to safely teleport into a group of enemies, because otherwise, it's a very limited skill, and doesn't really synergize with any of his other abilities. Without it, he can't exactly teleport into a Grineer Squadron of Napalms, Heavy Gunners, and drop a very useful Smoke Screen to stop them from attacking, while also letting him and his team hack, smash, or what have you. He'd just get knocked down, and the enemy that he stunned proceeds to shred him, laughing at his stupidity. I also thought about the combo system that's coming with Melee 2.0, this would let him maintain it much easier compared to other Warframes. Edit: Herp derp, re-read your post, the invisibility effect being removed in favour of just dropped aggro could also work. I imagine though that it'd be easier to use the existing invisibility mechanic, and would also give him a very short melee buff to let him quickly kill his target before moving to the next.

 

The Mark for Death idea was to give him more viability in the "late-game" or higher level content as his damage abilities severely lack utility. I suppose the debuff from Blade Storm could instead be periodic random stuns such as the ones caused by Impact procs, to make it less similar to Nova. Perhaps whatever he stabs his enemies with are coated with a neurotoxin or something that messes with them.

 

I wanted to center Ash around melee, while also making him more useful to the team, and give him more late game viability. These are all complaints I see often, and centering him around melee (combos specifically, if we take Melee 2.0 into consideration) gives him a more distinct role, as most Warframes clearly do. As it is... he's a Loki with worse invisibility, with a mobility skill that isn't really too useful, and his damage skills trail off in the later stages of the game. I personally would like it if people stop referring to him as the "solo frame." He could instead be "The" ninja. The Ryu Hayabusa of Warframe.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Zanzura

[fatpig84]

Ash is perfect as he is, it's the rest of the frames that's breaking the ninja playstyle being walking nukes

 

Loki, Trinity, Nekro, Nyx etc are walking nukes ?

Really ?

 

Ash only needs more offensive team disables and stuns, then he will have a niche.

Hell, Ember is a very serviceable stun bot with Accelerant and the synergy with fire (and all fire based weapons and fire based damage) is quite nice especially in Infested games.

 

Ash needs moar stuns.

Like teleporting to a target drops a stun grenade or a flashbang that blinds / stuns the enemies for 5 seconds.

Little fixes like that will help him tremendously.

Edited March 13, 2014 by fatpig84

[MaverickZero]

Sorry, I didn't answer the OP's question.

Ash is a disable/damage frame and mainly focuses on single targets. The assassin role.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Regarding Smoke Screen, I should clarify that Ash still gets his own independent invisibility that persists outside of the smoke. It is mainly to make his invisibility also a team buff and function as CC better as well.

 

The reason I gave Ash invisibility on Teleport was to allow him to safely teleport into a group of enemies, because otherwise, it's a very limited skill, and doesn't really synergize with any of his other abilities. Without it, he can't exactly teleport into a Grineer Squadron of Napalms, Heavy Gunners, and drop a very useful Smoke Screen to stop them from attacking, while also letting him and his team hack, smash, or what have you. He'd just get knocked down, and the enemy that he stunned proceeds to shred him, laughing at his stupidity. I also thought about the combo system that's coming with Melee 2.0, this would let him maintain it much easier compared to other Warframes.

 

The Mark for Death idea was to give him more viability in the "late-game" or higher level content as his damage abilities severely lack utility. I suppose the debuff from Blade Storm could instead be periodic random stuns such as the ones caused by Impact procs, to make it less similar to Nova. Perhaps whatever he stabs his enemies with are coated with a neurotoxin or something that messes with them.

 

I wanted to center Ash around melee, while also making him more useful to the team, and give him more late game viability. These are all complaints I see often, and centering him around melee (combos specifically, if we take Melee 2.0 into consideration) gives him a more distinct role, as most Warframes clearly do. As it is... he's a Loki with worse invisibility, with a mobility skill that isn't really too useful, and his damage skills trail off in the later stages of the game. I personally would like it if people stop referring to him as the "solo frame." He could instead be "The" ninja. The Ryu Hayabusa of Warframe.

 

SS- Ah, okay that works.

 

Of course, I wasn't saying he shouldn't have it. I was just saying I'd rather it not be actual invisibility and would rather it take the form of enemy disorientation. So he is still unable to draw aggro for a short duration, but without the visual invisibility. When I do play Ash I tend to abuse teleport, it would get rather annoying to be popping in and out of invisibility every few seconds.

 

A unique bleed proc that causes them to stagger every few seconds would be nice IMO.

 

I don't like it when people try and call him the ninja frame since that implies the other frames aren't ninja. You don't have to fit the stereotype word for word to be a ninja. I'd rather people dub him the assassin frame.

 

Back on track: These changes are actually drastically different than the ones I usually see offered up as 'the solution'. I like that. Normally people center their changes around free-aim teleportation and extra damage. 

Edited March 13, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Zanzura]

SS- Ah, okay that works.

 

Of course, I wasn't saying he shouldn't have it. I was just saying I'd rather it not be actual invisibility and would rather it take the form of enemy disorientation. So he is still unable to draw aggro for a short duration, but without the visual invisibility. When I do play Ash I tend to abuse teleport, it would get rather annoying to be popping in and out of invisibility every few seconds.

 

A unique bleed proc that causes them to stagger every few seconds would be nice IMO.

 

I don't like it when people try and call him the ninja frame since that implies the other frames aren't ninja. You don't have to fit the stereotype word for word to be a ninja. I'd rather people dub him the assassin frame.

 

Back on track: These changes are actually drastically different than the ones I usually see offered up as 'the solution'. I like that. Normally people center their changes around free-aim teleportation and extra damage. 

 

I edited my post before reading this one because I'm dumb and can't read, but I'm going to reiterate anyway. I would be fine with the invisibility effect dropping, though I'd still like to see a damage boost to melee after teleporting. Invisibility mechanics already work similarly, so I thought it'd be nice to include developer-wise (even though I have no idea how easy or hard it is to take an existing mechanic, modify it a little, and paste it on another ability).

 

We don't actually really have a lot of Warframes that fits the "ninja" archetype (though there are many). They all move and some look like one. But for the most part, they all play off some kind of fantasy theme or some other weird theme. We've got some Necromancer dude, a deer druid paladin guy, a BDSM cat, a fire sorcerer, an ice wizard, a rhino, a subwoofer, a bird, a walking broken light, a space engineer, a healing crab lobster, a poison spore flower MILF, a dorky magnet chick, Jean Grey, and a walking nuclear bomb straight out of some anime. I'm extremely sorry if I insulted anyone's favourite Warframe.

 

Finally, we have Loki, Ash, and Excalibur that somewhat fit the bill of a "ninja" stereotype. Loki's more of a "Tenchu" or a "Batman" ninja, being completely invisible most of the time, with a bunch of gadgets or tools at his disposal. Excalibur is... I can't really think of a ninja stereotype that fits him. He's more of a Samurai than anything with the Slash Dash, and has the Radial Blind that kinda fulfills the mythical magical sword part. Radial Javelin is kinda similar to Vergil's Summoned Swords from Devil May Cry... and he also behaved like a Samurai of sorts. So, uh, scratch him off the list I guess? We're missing the absurd, kicks everyone's &#! in the most extravagant ways non-ninja, ninja, AKA Ryu Hayabusa, and Ash could fulfill that role. I think my concept fits both the ninja and assassin archetype. Mark for Death is a common Assassin-skill in video games, along with the overplayed ninja smoke bomb vanish technique going along with it. I also think it makes a ton of sense to tie him in with the systems of Melee 2.0 but I'm just going to stop stroking my own ego thinking that my idea is the greatest ever now. It's disgusting.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Zanzura

[j0shh4nxd]

Am I the only one that believes Shuriken should be taken out of his skill set? We have Kunais, hikous, and despair...o_o

Instead, why not have an ability/buff that lets Ash and his teammates have the ability to walk/stand on walls, ceilings, it's like Naruto when they focused chakra in their feets to walk on water, stay upside down, etc

 

Smokescreen: Never really understood how smokescreen makes one invisible...I like the idea of smoke persisting, the smoke should be affected by duration and range mods, once its casted their should be a stun not affected by duration mods. The smoke hides Ash and renders him and his teammates ALMOST invisible because it lowers the enemys' visibility dramatically, Ash still has his 400% melee buff, teammates have a 150% melee buff, Ash and his teammates also have a 25% damage increase to their guns, enemies will be susceptible to friendly fire. Enemies will also be under "high alert" basically they will flip balls if they hear a sound and will focus on where the sound came from, this can give people the ability to manipulate the field(this is assuming SS is maxed)

 

Teleport: That flip stun needs to go away -_- Ash needs to teleport behind the enemy (if it is a friendly it doesn't matter) and I like the idea of him being invisible and having a melee buff right after (except when teleporting to a friendly) It'd be nice if it was free aim but it's not really necessary.

 

Blade Storm: Instead of making it like a nuke, make it something similar to Valkyr's hysteria? During this time, The player will target enemies, Ash will teleport to the targeted area and to enemies Ash will do 600 base damage and do 200% of his melee weapon damage, he will also be invincible during the duration AND if Ash uses this ability in the presence of an assassination target he will mark the boss and the boss will take 20% more damage (this is hoping that DE makes bosses more challenging)

 

Those are my useless 2 cents x)

Edited March 13, 2014 by j0shh4nxd

[Yefrign]

High threat single target assassin frame. and his ability helps compliment that statement

[Killerdude8]

Well, EVERY game HAS to have at least 1 Horrible character, Ash fills that role quite nicely.

 

Everything Ash does, Other frames do better, But not just better, Significantly better, and they do more!

 

#ashforrework2014

[Monolake]

[OriKlein]

I've used Shuriken in stealth, and enemies that were not attacked by the shuriken (note: targets were killed) had been alerted.

And no, they were not adjacent to the dead targets. The unharmed enemies were a fair distance away.

 

So unless Shuriken was tweaked with the most recent patch/fixes, that's isn't entirely true.

*I've heard some say they don't alert enemies who weren't targeted. Might be the distance Ash is when he makes a toss?*

Then there's an issue with either Shuriken or the AI which requires fixing, as this is not (logically) intended.