Melee 2.0: Shiny, But Useless Toy.

[Deidaku]

Dammit this thread is still alive -_-

[BlueSilkMetallic]

Some ideas are good (too much npc damage, not blockable Npc! CC)

 

But :

restrict ammo ?

no thanks ^^

 

If I want to play gun let me play gun.

[kaboomonme]

You do know the restricted ammo limit would kill virtually all weapons aside from a few like the Phage, right? 1-3 clips? Well then you better make it rain ammo left and right or else every single bow user will hate you with the burning fury of a thousand suns.

 

You aren't just asking for viable melee, you're asking for ranged weapons to be heavily nerfed and try to claim that will make melee balanced. Guess what? Unless the dude with the knife closes in, the dude with the gun will almost always come out on top. The enemy ranged weapon users gang up on you? Good, that's what would happen, you'd be shot to piece for charging against a group of rifle/shotgun wielding soldiers with a sword/hammer/whip.

 

Melee will never be viable because guns are just that much more lethal.

 

Also, Phage users such as myself would laugh at the idea of only having a few spare magazines (clips go in the magazines, you should know this) because with Shotgun Ammo Mutation, we'd never, ever run out of ammo due to how insanely efficient it is.

Close to all of the claims made here were are void if you look at the drastic changes Warframe has been through.

Before ammo mutation completely made the point I'm about to make here completely irrelevant :

Ammo Boxes used to be a thing. You had to prepare them and equip them for missions to prepare for the worst. It worked well for a while. Then came the mutation mods, and everything goes down the drain. Some utility mods were rendered obsolete as a side effect of this as well.

Proving that having a limited supply of ammunition isn't completely unthinkable, as this did exist at some point.

Those Clip Size and Ammo Cap mods are crying their eyes out too.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At some point, Melee was actually a very favorable and rewarding playstyle (although this applied mainly to heavy weapons). This was, of course, when guns weren't considered obsolete as long they didn't kill a unit before it's trigger-finger tendon budged.

Guns could dispatch enemies from far, yes, but Melee gave a satisfying, feel-good and fast-paced style of play that many enjoyed. People used to share stories of how they sliced a Heavy Gunner in half with their Gram before it had a chance to turn around. People did bring up the point that Melee seemed more effective than guns and that it didn't make sense, but the argument was that Melee had higher risk and Guns had a range advantage, and so that was that.

It's all a thing of the past now. If and how Melee 2.0 is going to fix this giant snowball is something I'm looking forward to.

Edited March 25, 2014 by kaboomonme

[evafan002]

New melee system will be useless. It can be "beautiful", "imbalanced", "glitchy" etc - but it will be useless in real game.

 

 

Let's make it clean - Warframe is TPS with simplified combat mechanics. Game balance designed for a gunfight, and also has other problems on its own.

so you accept that its a shooter and yet you want to try and turn it into a slasher with limited ranged combat. why? its a SHOOTER!! of course meele is gonna be playing second fiddle to the gunfights thats the point of a SHOOTER! anyway there is a reason why swords and other meele weapons became obsolete with the devolopment of firearms that being that a knife fight is messy and you are limited to the length of your weapon which means that you kill one target then have to move in close to engage another so yeah what you want isnt going to happen thats not what warframe is and its not what warframe is going to become

[RazorTip]

Can we just drop this thread already? Jesus, Melee 2.0 isn't even out yet and people are already whining about it.

 

Have some patience, damnit.

[letir]

1. How are you going to sync up the slowed time effect necessary for QTEs in a multiplayer game? Hint: It doesn't work.

2. Which keys are you going to use for the QTE? A/B/X/Y or Circle/Square/X/Triangle? Hint: Most people play with mouse and keyboard.

3. One of the biggest concerns about melee 2.0 is how long the combos will take to execute. Let's make them even slower with the inclusion of QTEs. Brilliant.

4. Host-Client lag would definitely cause many people to continuously fail even remotely difficult QTEs, thereby invalidating the whole risk-reward factor you're bringing up. Quick-time events are a bad idea. We don't need anything more than timed blocking/ counterattacks when it comes to skill-based inputs.

1. Who said "necessary"?

Statement: there is some games with QTE, but without slo-mo.

2. LMB (Left Mouse Button), RMB (Right Mouse Button), Space, Shift, E, Q, F (as block button).

Statement: easy reachable for PC player.

3. QTE is part of sucessful parry. That's all.

4. Timed counter is boring and repetative. In "time only" games like Dark Souls you will learn timing and that's all - skill part is over.

[Seanjuju]

By elmo you're on to something sir.

[Motakshi]

3. QTE is part of sucessful parry. That's all.

4. Timed counter is boring and repetative. In "time only" games like Dark Souls you will learn timing and that's all - skill part is over.

 

 

Okay, there's a successful parry. Then what, you go into a pre-scripted animation where you hit the right button? You'd get maybe a .5~ second window in all reality to correctly hit the right button, considering you have to factor in there has to be time to transition between either a success animation or a failed one.

 

As if QTE's aren't boring? Nothing kills the fun more than killing enemies with the same generic counter nine million times. And yes, accurately predicting the timing for each different potential melee strike from a multitude of enemies would be so much more boring than mashing out whichever key popped up on the screen. Try playing MGR by Zandatsu-ing everything. You can beat the game by slide attack/Zandatsuing entire crowds practically. It's a cool animation (probably cooler than any realistic length QTE could be for Warframe), but it's not cool the 700th time.

 

The fact there's even a QTE to begin with means that you had to successfully parry in the first place, so why not just leave it at that and allow players to use combos or retaliate how they'd like to.

[letir]

1) Okay, there's a successful parry. Then what, you go into a pre-scripted animation where you hit the right button? You'd get maybe a .5~ second window in all reality to correctly hit the right button, considering you have to factor in there has to be time to transition between either a success animation or a failed one.

2) The fact there's even a QTE to begin with means that you had to successfully parry in the first place, so why not just leave it at that and allow players to use combos or retaliate how they'd like to.

1) Additions to animation can spice the process. Something like: "He's trying to block your attack, so next button must be RMB (block breach)".

2) It's just "sucessful block". You blocked all damage, enemy miss. But, if you want, it is causing potentially deadly counterattack.

Edited March 25, 2014 by letir

[DiabolusUrsus]

1. Who said "necessary"?

Statement: there is some games with QTE, but without slo-mo.

2. LMB (Left Mouse Button), RMB (Right Mouse Button), Space, Shift, E, Q, F (as block button).

Statement: easy reachable for PC player.

3. QTE is part of sucessful parry. That's all.

4. Timed counter is boring and repetative. In "time only" games like Dark Souls you will learn timing and that's all - skill part is over.

 

1. Said games without slow-mo also have ridiculously long hang-times between animation sequences, which is inherently incompatible with fast-paced, fluidly animated melee combat. Sure, games like God of War and the like have quick-time events for certain melee attacks and finishers, but they're never difficult or even complicated. It's mash (insert button here) or (insert sequence of buttons here) as fast as possible for more damage.

2. You missed the point of me bringing up the issue of quicktime buttons, but that's partly my fault for being a bit vague. People playing Warframe aren't going to have a good time making unnatural use of their movement keys for unnecessarily complicated combat sequences. Do keyboards preclude the use of quick-time events? No. Warframe's pacing, however, would mandate a fairly well-designed, ergonomic, and intuitive layout of quick-time inputs for related events to be anything but irritating, which is why most people are so against the idea.

 

3. Successful parrying is simple enough that it doesn't interrupt the flow of combat. That is all.

4. Quick time events are boring and repetitive. (See? I can spout opinions too.) Games like Dark Souls also rarely force you to contend with more than three or four enemies at any one time, and even those numbers are odds to be afraid of. How many enemies do you fight at a time in Warframe?

Anyways, let's get down to business, shall we?

1. Quick time events will disrupt the existent flow of Warframe's combat system.

2. Quick time events will likely create a number of host-client lag issues that turn a risk-reward system into a risk-punishment system.

3. Quick time events will require superfluous amounts of extra coding and animation.

4. Quick time events will introduce more random-number-generation to the combat system, which is counter-productive to supplying players with agency.

Four reasons off of the top of my head why quick-time events will be harmful to Warframe. Now, can you give me any reasons as to why they would be beneficial outside of "...because I think they're cool, and I like them?" What will quick-time events contribute to gameplay that couldn't be just as easily implemented through a simpler system? Which sorts of rewards do you expect people to risk completing quick-time events to obtain?

[letir]

Anyways, let's get down to business, shall we?

1. Quick time events will disrupt the existent flow of Warframe's combat system.

2. Quick time events will likely create a number of host-client lag issues that turn a risk-reward system into a risk-punishment system.

3. Quick time events will require superfluous amounts of extra coding and animation.

4. Quick time events will introduce more random-number-generation to the combat system, which is counter-productive to supplying players with agency.

Four reasons off of the top of my head why quick-time events will be harmful to Warframe. Now, can you give me any reasons as to why they would be beneficial outside of "...because I think they're cool, and I like them?" What will quick-time events contribute to gameplay that couldn't be just as easily implemented through a simpler system? Which sorts of rewards do you expect people to risk completing quick-time events to obtain?

Your reasons seems solid.

Reward - they can beat most dangerous enemies in one parry and sucessful sequince. Even this "mini-boss melee leader +5".

Reasons - deadly melee one-hit-kill must be difficult. I can't find another "difficult, but rewarding concept".

Benefical - "Wow, i'm so cool, it's flawless victory!"

 

If you can find another concept for deadly counter - please, tell me.

[UnderYourBed]

Just Guard->Stun(a la Valkyr's Paralysis), which opens them up for a lethal blow.

Edited March 25, 2014 by UnderYourBed

[letir]

Just Guard->Stun(a la Valkyr's Paralysis), which opens them up for a lethal blow.

It's fine for usual enemeis.

 

In Dark Souls you can finish final boss with few counter's, without big problems.

[DiabolusUrsus]

The devs already stated their intent for a successful parry to open up an enemy for a one-hit-kill riposte finisher. An additional quick-time sequence to qualify for the guaranteed kill is unnecessary. I'm assuming that parrying in Warframe will have a different effect on bosses. Timed-input combos should be enough to satisfy the sort of input sequences you're asking for.

[letir]

Ok. Thanks for discussion, i will change this part.

[SirSlayer]

The amount of people who believe everything's gonna change magically for the better is too damn high.

[ShadowCore67]

Thats why in the previous devstream they were talking about ways to make you want to go up and melee people. But I can see your point.

Edited March 25, 2014 by ShadowCore67

[mpastor]

Who let George Lucas into the discussion?  Honestly, folks use your heads.  There is a reason why the US Army doesn't fill its infantry brigades with a bunch of sword wielding Kung FU experts (also note the Army only attacks nations who national sport is Soccer due to the poor hand eye coordination of their citizens).

 

Let's face it, people who like melee usually are naive kids or folks who fall to the left on the bell curve of intellect (typically a standard deviation left). In real life there is a reason guns win out, and this typically carries over into simulation games.  

 

1.  Whatever goofy idea you have about bouncing bullets and laser beams off of swords as a means of defense, the fact is, even if you invented a weapon cable of doing this today and learned the skills to use it... then tomorrow some fellow would take that invention and add bullet shooting capability to it, so you didn't have to stupidly stand next to your opponent while fighting.

 

2. Fighting with swords is kinetic warfare.  Ideas of energy and momentum apply as they do to bullets.  Whatever little magical material you make your "future" sword out of that penetrates that magical " future armor" of your opponents.... well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to suggest we make bullets out of the same material.  Bullets that can move at velocities orders of magnitude higher than a swinging sword and carry orders of magnitude more energy and punch.

 

So, those are a couple of real ideas.  But suppose the game developers decide to shelve logic.  It happens all of the time.  It's their game, they can do what they like.  Here is the next little hurdle they need to cross.  Everyone is familiar with it.  A group of bad guys shows up and then... Pow, pow-pow, pow, pow, pow, pow-pow-pow.  Just as fast as you can say those words, the six bad guys who are spread out in your frontal cone at various distances and elevations are dead.

 

To make your melee equal this capability you either have to nerf the guns heavily or substantially increase the capabilities of your melee'r.  Think about it ( I know it may be hard for some), to bring the melee performance up to current game gun standards one needs to not only kill quickly and safely, but one needs also to almost instantly cover great distances between targets.

 

Ok, so say the developers somehow tackle this issue with super magic speed, hyper extended reach, and/or some form of defensive invulnerability.  Well, your typical intelligent gun toter is just going to coop some of these traits... coming out again on top.

 

Finally, there is the complexity of play.  Melee right now already is pretty darn tough.  However, when people complain about it, what they really are complaining about is not how lame it is, but rather how complex it is to perform well with it.  Fact is... it is way too tough for the average joe to master melee at high levels.  When you hear someone comment here about making melee tougher, what they really are saying is make it easier for them to use.  In other words... dumb it down for the masses of melee lovers.

 

The typical Neanderthals who loves melee doesn't love to deal with complexity.  Essentially, anything above "there bad guy me charge and attack" is not going to be too popular.  Not to mention, any realistic makeover using feints, blocks, setups, moves, counter moves....  Well, how is this complex solution to the killing problem going to compete with the Pow, pow, pow effect.   

 

This game is a FPS as the OP correctly stated (though it's played in pseudo third person mode).  Melee is a support form of combat.  Best used to open crates or when attacked during mag changes. Heck, melee really does not need a face lift.  No change to it is going to effect the dominance of gun play (unless the later is heavily nerfed).  The dumb masses who pine for melee will eventually recognize this and be dissatisfied.  I use the term dumb because let's face it.  If they had any sense at all, they would play Loki and we would not be having this discussion.

[RoboDoge]

Advice.

 

 

Don not be overhyped about M2.0, because you will be overbutthurt if M2.0 doesnt lives to your expectations. Melee will be lacking when compared to powers and weapons, so expect another Ash Bladestorm. Shiny and good looking, but useless in most situations.

[DiabolusUrsus]

-snip-

 

You have earned my upvote for the amusement I derived from amazement at the bullheaded nature of your bigotry and self-involvement. It takes something special begin with an argument from realism, move in to a skillfully narrated circular logic fallacy, and then finish off with baseless insults. Most trolls don't exert the effort required by any attempts at formatting, either. I salute you.

[Tsarkon]

 

Who let George Lucas into the discussion?  Honestly, folks use your heads.  There is a reason why the US Army doesn't fill its infantry brigades with a bunch of sword wielding Kung FU experts (also note the Army only attacks nations who national sport is Soccer due to the poor hand eye coordination of their citizens).

 

Let's face it, people who like melee usually are naive kids or folks who fall to the left on the bell curve of intellect (typically a standard deviation left). In real life there is a reason guns win out, and this typically carries over into simulation games.  

 

1.  Whatever goofy idea you have about bouncing bullets and laser beams off of swords as a means of defense, the fact is, even if you invented a weapon cable of doing this today and learned the skills to use it... then tomorrow some fellow would take that invention and add bullet shooting capability to it, so you didn't have to stupidly stand next to your opponent while fighting.

 

2. Fighting with swords is kinetic warfare.  Ideas of energy and momentum apply as they do to bullets.  Whatever little magical material you make your "future" sword out of that penetrates that magical " future armor" of your opponents.... well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to suggest we make bullets out of the same material.  Bullets that can move at velocities orders of magnitude higher than a swinging sword and carry orders of magnitude more energy and punch.

 

So, those are a couple of real ideas.  But suppose the game developers decide to shelve logic.  It happens all of the time.  It's their game, they can do what they like.  Here is the next little hurdle they need to cross.  Everyone is familiar with it.  A group of bad guys shows up and then... Pow, pow-pow, pow, pow, pow, pow-pow-pow.  Just as fast as you can say those words, the six bad guys who are spread out in your frontal cone at various distances and elevations are dead.

 

To make your melee equal this capability you either have to nerf the guns heavily or substantially increase the capabilities of your melee'r.  Think about it ( I know it may be hard for some), to bring the melee performance up to current game gun standards one needs to not only kill quickly and safely, but one needs also to almost instantly cover great distances between targets.

 

Ok, so say the developers somehow tackle this issue with super magic speed, hyper extended reach, and/or some form of defensive invulnerability.  Well, your typical intelligent gun toter is just going to coop some of these traits... coming out again on top.

 

Finally, there is the complexity of play.  Melee right now already is pretty darn tough.  However, when people complain about it, what they really are complaining about is not how lame it is, but rather how complex it is to perform well with it.  Fact is... it is way too tough for the average joe to master melee at high levels.  When you hear someone comment here about making melee tougher, what they really are saying is make it easier for them to use.  In other words... dumb it down for the masses of melee lovers.

 

The typical Neanderthals who loves melee doesn't love to deal with complexity.  Essentially, anything above "there bad guy me charge and attack" is not going to be too popular.  Not to mention, any realistic makeover using feints, blocks, setups, moves, counter moves....  Well, how is this complex solution to the killing problem going to compete with the Pow, pow, pow effect.   

 

This game is a FPS as the OP correctly stated (though it's played in pseudo third person mode).  Melee is a support form of combat.  Best used to open crates or when attacked during mag changes. Heck, melee really does not need a face lift.  No change to it is going to effect the dominance of gun play (unless the later is heavily nerfed).  The dumb masses who pine for melee will eventually recognize this and be dissatisfied.  I use the term dumb because let's face it.  If they had any sense at all, they would play Loki and we would not be having this discussion.

 

You could have replaced your entire post with, "Stop liking things I don't like!" and then maybe add in whatever name calling you happened to have heard on a Family Guy episode that day. I mean honestly, what good does it do to insult the people who play this game? At best you get a fleeting moment of "Hah! I sure called that guy stupid!" and at worse you just spent spent 5 minutes writing about how superior you think you are to a group of people who don't care.

Yes, in real life, guns will beat swords. I'm pretty sure everyone old enough to play this game is aware of this simple fact. But if I wanted real life combat, I'd go and join the army. This game is an escape, a pass-time, a fantasy, etc. I shouldn't have to bring up the idea of suspending disbelief because this entire game is based on the idea that you are a cybernetic space ninja wizard.

All I see with melee 2.0 is a chance for alternative gameplay if that's how I feel like playing that day. Ultimately the title of this topic is right. This is a shiny but useless toy. But it's a shiny useless toy built in to another shiny useless toy unless someone is miraculously improving their overall life by playing Warframe. All that matters to me and many is that when we log in, we have fun. This was never about self improvement or discovering deep potential within us all. For an hour a day, I want to be able to log in any be a cyber space ninja wizard. That's all.

What appeals to me about the concept of melee 2.0 is it's giving the mod system what I had always hoped it would be, at least for melee. Right now, what do mods do really? You'll pull a bow string back slightly faster or your snow globe covers a slightly bigger area. These effects are extremely small, and rare compared to other mods that are only there to make your bullets one shot Grineer harder. Basically at the moment no matter what mods you're using, not a whole lot is actually changing in the gameplay, and that's a missed opportunity for this game as a whole.

tl;dr: You may not find the need for melee 2.0, and that's fine. I am excited about the mod system actually modifying the gameplay for a change and hope they make this the norm for the rest of gameplay from here on out.

[Ionus]

You have earned my upvote for the amusement I derived from amazement at the bullheaded nature of your bigotry and self-involvement. It takes something special begin with an argument from realism, move in to a skillfully narrated circular logic fallacy, and then finish off with baseless insults. Most trolls don't exert the effort required by any attempts at formatting, either. I salute you.

*Slow clap*

[Ritchel]

this mellee 2.0 is indeed a very challenging thing for the devs, since its taking too long and the prev devstream they stated that some things were removed.. lol

 

goodluck anyways, just waiting for this system to be released , so i could play this game again

[warthain]

...

 

i agree to everything you just said, people think melee 2.0 will give them the edge over guns and put them on par with them or outperforming them, when its more like you can only get more customization options on how you melee things... even if melee gets improved and actually performs better, at the end of the day guns will still outperform by 1000% any melee .... 

 

it will be a more fun thing, something to do if you feel like, it ... today i feel like beating all the bosses with my melee weapon... and i do it or try to ... it will be fun...more satisfying to watch, and more customizable... but not the king of the hill...

Edited March 25, 2014 by warthain

[TheDoctah]

The one point I agree with is the fact that guns vs melee, you would choose guns. Yes, you can say you can use a all melee build, but really, why would you really want to outside of the "just cause" factor? Soma exists, the 4 key exists. I can't imagine DE doing all that for the changes though. No matter how much of a improvement it might mean for the game. It's just too much for them to go over. I see melee 2.0 bringing a lot of fun factor to the game, but I don't think it'll make people say "Wow, this is so much better than using my Soma!" Unless DE is gonna allow you to pull off some final fantasy type swordplay, I still can't see it matching up with the gunplay and power spam in terms of outright power. Will it be fun? I certainly hope and think so! Will it make people think twice about using their swords instead of their Soma's in the higher level stuff? Probably not, but only time will tell!