Soma Is The Benchmark For Weapon Balancing.

[IANOBW]

We have a winner!

 

You could have done this yourself without trying to provoke people. But whatever, maybe that was the intention. I'm certainly laughing.

[Ishki88]

You could have done this yourself without trying to provoke people. But whatever, maybe that was the intention. I'm certainly laughing.

 

*Diary

 

IANOBW.  Thank you.  I just couldn't find it :(  I tried looking ;)

[Sixty5]

What guns surpass 20k damage?  

Soma, Latron Prime, Boltor Prime, Brakk, Akbolto, Wraith Vipers, Phage.

 

And that is just off the top of my head. There are a bunch more.

[Ishki88]

-Double

 

Edited March 15, 2014 by Ishki88

[Ishki88]

Soma, Latron Prime, Boltor Prime, Brakk, Akbolto, Wraith Vipers, Phage.

 

And that is just off the top of my head. There are a bunch more.

 

 

So we have weapons that deal 10k damage...weapons that deal 20k damage....and weapons that deal above 20k damage....the ones you listed. 

 

So when I see a topic such as...Boltor Prime is OP, I fail to understand this when it's numerous weapons right under it.  You just listed the top 10ish weapons in the game.  Now we can include the Boltor Prime.  :D

[HillsAndTheSea]

i hope you know DE also said "they cant, and dont intend to balance endless gamemodes, nor do they actually support or approve of playing more than 15-20 mintues/waves"

 

-they also capped the game at level 38 shortly after (although invasions can go up to level 40)

 

that being said, there currently is no content that warrants a tier of weapons as powerful as the soma, maybe if we still had level 70 alerts, but until we get access to actual content of that calibur, 30k+ dps is extreme overkill

 

endurance runs aka 1hour games =/= content

[SALE94]

Diferent weapons for diferent mastery ranks because we have no tiers..

But wait brakk is rank 0 and boltor prime is 2 now do you see real problem.

 

Soma is great weapon with mr6 and that is fine, but some weapons should be higher like boar prime, detron.

Edited March 15, 2014 by SALE94

[Ishki88]

i hope you know DE also said "they cant, and dont intend to balance endless gamemodes, nor do they actually support or approve of playing more than 15-20 mintues/waves"

 

-they also capped the game at level 38 shortly after (although invasions can go up to level 40)

 

that being said, there currently is no content that warrants a tier of weapons as powerful as the soma, maybe if we still had level 70 alerts, but until we get access to actual content of that calibur, 30k+ dps is extreme overkill

 

endurance runs aka 1hour games =/= content

 

 

If that's the case good sir then DE will have to RE-nerf some weapons because it's still "nerfed" weapons I'm using after 20 minute survivals.

 

They would have to RE-NERF the Brakk because it's still functional after 30 minutes.

[Ishki88]

Diferent weapons for diferent mastery ranks because we have no tiers..

But wait brakk is rank 0 and boltor prime is 2 now do you see real problem.

 

Soma is great weapon with mr6 and that is fine, but some weapons should be higher like boar prime, detron.

 

 

Oh..I SEE trust me.  I've stated many times Prime weapons need higher mastery ranks.  Personally I feel Boltor Prime should be Rank 9 or 10.

 

Edit:  But still......that doesn't fix the "issue"....we are still being paired in groups with lower mastery level players with weak weapons.  And when that happens, they storm to the forums and argue their complaints.

 

It's a lot more to it than just nerfing a weapon.  Everything reflects off itself.  DE knows this so I'm not here to lecture.  I'm just here to remind people of what DE's attentions were and are...as they are ever evolving....

 

Still watching this LS....

Edited March 15, 2014 by Ishki88

[SALE94]

Everyting you said, i clap too you Ishki88 , there is still hope for people of WF.

Edited March 15, 2014 by SALE94

[Sixty5]

So we have weapons that deal 10k damage...weapons that deal 20k damage....and weapons that deal above 20k damage....the ones you listed. 

 

So when I see a topic such as...Boltor Prime is OP, I fail to understand this when it's numerous weapons right under it.  You just listed the top 10ish weapons in the game.  Now we can include the Boltor Prime.  :D

The problem is that there is no content in this game that justifies that level of power that does not take an extended play session to reach.

 

I have no problems with that level of power as long as the content is there to justify it. 

[SALE94]

Then wait for that content and leave current fake end content with haxed enemy numbers and lvls , and weapons that are made just so you can  deal with said enemies.

 

Ofc it sucks too play that long so you can finaly find your match but that is how it is for now.

Edited March 15, 2014 by SALE94

[CandyDragon]

The problem is that there is no content in this game that justifies that level of power that does not take an extended play session to reach.

 

I have no problems with that level of power as long as the content is there to justify it. 

They sell power creep. Perhaps its a little daunting to the lazy, but for most its the main source of game goals at the moment.

Would you invest in leveling up mods that take several weeks for an average player to max when the proposed system allows for very little advancement in dps?

Would you invest in leveling up anything really if all of it was generic barely different from each oher in terms of performance weapon types?

Would it even feel enjoyable to basically find weapon upgrades that are side grades in the same overall useless meta that you propose?

 

Not that there is anything wrong with it at all. Its an understandable setup for most f2p.  Its designed to hook you in for hours, promote the usage of boosters and cash shop consumables. Time or plat is the commodity, you spend one or the other. Without an incentive, they'd likely not have as many people playing or paying as often.  (even then, min max is a poor replacement for "endgame" which is an actual problem even now)

 

Part of the fun of this game, and really the only source of enjoyment for me these days is getting guns leveled and forma'd to do some ridiculous damage. Take that away all for the sake of the useless casual who cry about how EZ things are and hate survival and defense. And you have an extremely short lived amount of crunch time for its replay value.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Nariala

[Ishki88]

The problem is that there is no content in this game that justifies that level of power that does not take an extended play session to reach.

 

I have no problems with that level of power as long as the content is there to justify it. 

 

Which is why in the last few LSs they have revealed 3 new "end-game" concepts.  Now what if these "end-game" concepts require weapons such as the ones you stated?  And we spent the last few months blasting DE to nerf the weapons that would eventually need for future updates?  Now we have to sit here and ask them to BUFF the weapons again.  Which is why people should watch LS14....

 

It doesn't matter which order DE does it.  People will still voice their complaints if they do not understand what DE is trying to do.

 

Let's just say they released the content without the weapons.  Then people would complain about underpowered weapons for said missions.

 

Let's just say the released the weapons first.  Then we have your statement you just made....its funny isnt it

 

.....Sadly DE hasn't released gameplay content (yet) that would match a 8 Forma'd Brakk..or Boltor Prime....or Synapse..etc...but it'll come soon...which is why I feel like DE knew what they were doing whne releasing Boltor Prime AND Gorgon Wraith int he same breathe...they aren't stupid they can clearly tell which weapon is better lol...it's not rocket science.....

 

But I'm about to go eat some waffles....and the end of the day...just have more faith into DE.....

 

If your lil boy is trying to run a ride his tricycle...and he keeps falling you aren't going to keep @#$@# on him for failing...if he tells you..pops I'm going to try to do this so I wont fall..you aren't going to kick him when he is down

 

but you know what maybe you would because this is what the Community is doing

 

 

edit: waffles too good to spellcheck

Edited March 15, 2014 by Ishki88

[Tulzscha]

Moved to the proper section.

[Thelonious]

Part of the fun of this game, and really the only source of enjoyment for me these days is getting guns leveled and forma'd to do some ridiculous damage. 

 

For me too, but then I stare at my 5 star Boltor Prime, and realize I'm just gonna kill everything in less than a second, for the first half-hour of any survival/defense...Meh.

Sometimes I feel the leveling part is more fun than the finalized weapon. At least I was challenged all the way through.

 

I must be a masochist.

 

Anyway, what 65 said. 

Edited March 16, 2014 by Thelonious

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

So where exactly in that livestream do they say "soma is the benchmark"?

[LazyKnight]

For me too, but then I stare at my 5 star Boltor Prime, and realize I'm just gonna kill everything in less than a second, for the first half-hour of any survival/defense...Meh.

Sometimes I feel the leveling part is more fun than the finalized weapon. At least I was challenged all the way through.

The NPC scaling isn't balanced at all, and it is outright inadequate for a party (it is changing to solo Ceres survival to 40 minutes and is fun). They still haven't got scaling done correctly, and they should take a look at using a parties conclave rating to determine NPC level and have it influence the number of leaders that spawn with a group.

 

They also need to go after Trinity (and others) with a nerf sledge hammer, so people realize that level 30 Grineer can crush a players in seconds. The Warframe powers need an overhaul, and is the greater imbalance that ruins any hope of the game being hard with a group. NPC have far better TTK time than players do and if DE ever fixed the imbalances with the defensive powers (nova counts here because of slow) people would hit the glass wall and wipe.

Edited March 16, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Nagisawa]

Oh..I SEE trust me.  I've stated many times Prime weapons need higher mastery ranks.  Personally I feel Boltor Prime should be Rank 9 or 10.

 

Edit:  But still......that doesn't fix the "issue"....we are still being paired in groups with lower mastery level players with weak weapons.  And when that happens, they storm to the forums and argue their complaints.

 

It's a lot more to it than just nerfing a weapon.  Everything reflects off itself.  DE knows this so I'm not here to lecture.  I'm just here to remind people of what DE's attentions were and are...as they are ever evolving....

 

Still watching this LS....

No, actually, they don't.  They get bored, frustrated and find another game to play, taking whatever money they have with them.  The 'lower skill' group, is also known as the Casual Player.  Who actually spend more money, and are the more wanted of players by most companies.

 

I wonder if DE actually knows what 'benchmark' means.  If the Soma is it, then all the other weapons need to be looked at.  Because the disparity between them all is a little too extreme.

[Monolake]

If Soma was supposed to be a benchmark it should have been upper limit (together with Synapse) , now it looks like it is quickly becoming average with several new weapons surpassing it, and people are already whining if they get ~35% weaker weapons like Gorgon W. 

 

I did some testing with no Serration or HC equipped (mainly to see headshot damage) and a gun - namely Soma and Boltor Pirime -  modded for only 4k dps burst kills lvl32 void heavies in 1-2 seconds. To put that in perspective, 4k is less than maxed worst gun - MK1, and about 4-5 times lower than maxed potential of Soma/BoltorP. Ponder that, best rifle is 5 times more powerful than what you need to easily solo the standard high-evel missions (lvl30-40)

This power creep is unjustified as long as we dont get any tougher challenges. And I mean 4 times tougher, not an occasional lvl 45 leader.

[LazyKnight]

This power creep is unjustified as long as we dont get any tougher challenges. And I mean 4 times tougher, not an occasional lvl 45 leader.

Maybe if people bothered to do mission higher than kappa they would find and discover a challenge. People flock to the easiest possible mission and ignore anything hard, and at the same type complain their guns are too strong for kappa. This is the reason that so many nodes are empty because it is more rewarding to spam a lower level mission over and over.

 

If you do not realize the equation that NPC use for NPC damage it goes up nearly exponentially and hockey sticks after level 30. If you take more than a second or two to kill a level 40 it will kill you. A rhino with 1100 shields can be knocked down by a shield lancer and by the time his animation finishes for standing up the lancer is shooting health.

Edited March 16, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Monolake]

Maybe if people bothered to do mission higher than kappa they would find and discover a challenge. People flock to the easiest possible mission and ignore anything hard, and at the same type complain their guns are too strong for kappa. This is the reason that so many nodes are empty because it is more rewarding to spam a lower level mission over and over.

 

If you do not realize the equation that NPC use for NPC damage it goes up nearly exponentially and hockey sticks after level 30. If you take more than a second or two to kill a level 40 it will kill you. A rhino with 1100 shields can be knocked down by a shield lancer and by the time his animation finishes for standing up the lancer is shooting health.

The best guns are too powerful for everything in this game up to ~1 hr in T3.

You have abundance of protection and CC counter-measures to make all the incoming damage not a problem. Its not that hard to solo the top survival - Palus - with some crappy Karak not even abusing the skills like M-prime. 

 

You speak like you'v never played pre-nerf T3 defence, where you had lvl70s in the end, and people been playing it with average (by todays standards) weapons for long time. Now weapons are better but even T3 defence is a joke with lvl20s for 20 waves.

[LazyKnight]

The best guns are too powerful for everything in this game up to ~1 hr in T3.

You have abundance of protection and CC counter-measures to make all the incoming damage not a problem. Its not that hard to solo the top survival - Palus - with some crappy Karak not even abusing the skills like M-prime. 

 

You speak like you'v never played pre-nerf T3 defence, where you had lvl70s in the end, and people been playing it with average (by todays standards) weapons for long time. Now weapons are better but even T3 defence is a joke with lvl20s for 20 waves.

You do realize with the same patch they lowered NPC leveled they increased the damage scaling equation right? It was explicitly stated in the update notes. Corpus do NOT have armor and I mention Grineer, are you trying to use straw man arguments? Corpus only gets shields and health and are by far the easiest faction to do high level runs. Infested can be soloed to level 999 because of Vauban, and is irrelevant.

 

I have soloed the old tower 3 defense DOZENS of times, and I think I know how the blasted game works; I have even used a Seer back when armor scaling was broken. The game is a joke now because of Trinity and Frost's snow globe spamming, along with all the other things that make a party immortal. I have NOT had a party wipe since the corrupted mods allowed people to stack attributes.

 

CC powers and defense powers are broken, and they are indefensible broken. This is not even debatable and is beyond any reproach, DE botched Warframe's CC skills. I am losing all faith in the Warframe community because people honestly think this exploitive CC is not blatantly overpowered.

 

You can do survival for 2 hours having everyone using damage penalty dragon keys as long as CC was used. What does this say about balance? Weapons could be 25% of their current strength and it would be an irrelevant nerf and people would still be complaining the game is too easy.

 

Your constantly going on about weapons and always harping on about it doesn't matter you use crap for guns because CC is so good. Then maybe, just maybe, the thing that is the issue is the fact the NPC's damage has been made irrelevant, and it doesn't matter if people have 200 DPS on their weapons they would still 'win' because of CC.

 

I hope you know DE also said "they cant, and don't intend to balance endless game modes, nor do they actually support or approve of playing more than 15-20 minutes/waves"

They haven't even balanced content under level 20 it is just easy-mode or hard-mode depending on what Warframe is used. The fact that people use unleveled weapons at Kappa shows that Warframe powers carry people to at least NPC level 20. The lack of a difficult curve is glaring, and what curve that exist is flattened by CC.

 

If DE is unwilling to nerf Warframe's CC skills, there is no point in playing the game or expecting ANY possible end-game to be worth playing. This is not an exaggeration, the CC need to be crushed with a continues series of hard nerfs.

Edited March 16, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Monolake]

You do realize with the same patch they lowered NPC leveled they increased the damage scaling equation right? It was explicitly stated in the update notes. Corpus do NOT have armor and I mention Grineer, are you trying to use straw man arguments? Corpus only gets shields and health and are by far the easiest faction to do high level runs. Infested can be soloed to level 999 because of Vauban, and is irrelevant.

 

I have soloed the old tower 3 defense DOZENS of times, and I think I know how the blasted game works; I have even used a Seer back when armor scaling was broken. The game is a joke now because of Trinity and Frost's snow globe spamming, along with all the other things that make a party immortal. I have NOT had a party wipe since the corrupted mods allowed people to stack attributes.

 

CC powers and defense powers are broken, and they are indefensible broken. This is not even debatable and is beyond any reproach, DE botched Warframe's CC skills. I am losing all faith in the Warframe community because people honestly think this exploitive CC is not blatantly overpowered.

 

You can do survival for 2 hours having everyone using damage penalty dragon keys as long as CC was used. What does this say about balance? Weapons could be 25% of their current strength and it would be an irrelevant nerf and people would still be complaining the game is too easy.

 

Your constantly going on about weapons and always harping on about it doesn't matter you use crap for guns because CC is so good. Then maybe, just maybe, the thing that is the issue is the fact the NPC's damage has been made irrelevant, and it doesn't matter if people have 200 DPS on their weapons they would still 'win' because of CC.

 

They haven't even balanced content under level 20 it is just easy-mode or hard-mode depending on what Warframe is used. The fact that people use unleveled weapons at Kappa shows that Warframe powers carry people to at least NPC level 20. The lack of a difficult curve is glaring, and what curve that exist is flattened by CC.

 

If DE is unwilling to nerf Warframe's CC skills, there is no point in playing the game or expecting ANY possible end-game to be worth playing. This is not an exaggeration, the CC need to be crushed with a continues series of hard nerfs.

 

Im talking about u12 where they made void defences endless starting with low levels. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/172913-update-12-zephyr-rises/  I only brought up Palus cause you somehow say that only people who play Kappa think the weapons are OP. 

I soloed T3 ext with peashooters modded for ~2k DPS with crappy Oberon(couldnt find a worse frame) who does punny damage and all the CC he has is a 2 seconds knockdown, not even trying hard. Is that enough of a proof?

We had this conversation already, weapons are overpowered regardless of warframe abilites and both need rebalance (that will never happen, judging by what DE has done and keeps on doing)

 

Edited March 16, 2014 by Monolake

[Endorphinz]

I think we can all agree the Soma is a gun.