Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Archwizard]

22 minutes ago, Annon5150 said:

Clairvoyance

Perhaps... Astral Projection?

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

13 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I'm still thinking it could be an idea for Nyx's passive to modify Radiation status effects she inflicts, so as to reduce competition with Chaos. The mind wipe thing could be interesting...

And no, I'm not satisfied with the current state of Psychic Bolts, but I don't want to jump into giving her a new effect she'd hardly ever use compared to the skills she already has. The tricky part of designing a new ability for Nyx is, with half her kit already being CC (like with Hydroid), there's not a lot of skill-ceiling she has available to her.
I feel the idea already proposed in the OP is a step in the right direction only because it takes into account synergy with her kit (playing off Mind Control's absorb effect to provide a support role for a minion she may discard), but that doesn't mean I agree with Psychic Bolts as a delivery mechanism, nor that I'm attached to the idea in the OP.

Will keep looking at other instances of telepathy or telekinesis in fiction for inspiration.

EDIT: Actually, the more I think of it, we could kill two birds with one stone. What if Nyx's passive was a small sphere of Radiation-immunity to her and allies, that also removed their threat against enemies afflicted by Radiation or Chaos?
I was thinking of X-Men, where both Professor X and Jean Grey could alter the perception of people around them to make themselves effectively invisible. It would synergize wonderfully with the one soft spot on Chaos...

like it ?

[Archwizard]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

like it ?

... Except then I realized that playing with threat detection would go right back to the complaint about Loki and Nyx becoming the same Warframe. Passively moving undetected through Chaos would be the same as Loki tapping Invisibility and ID.

Still, there might be something we can do with Telepathy or Empathy...

Edited November 6, 2016 by Archwizard

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

2 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

... Except then I realized that playing with threat detection would go right back to the complaint about Loki and Nyx becoming the same Warframe.

Still, there might be something we can do with Telepathy...

i like the jean grey and prof x angle. i will brain storm on this.

[Aquasurge]

then perhaps some sort of team buff for nyx would be nice?

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

4 hours ago, Aquasurge said:

then perhaps some sort of team buff for nyx would be nice?

a buff for Warframe powers: range, efficientcy, strength and duration. 

Edited November 6, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

I like the idea of a 2 for nyx that buffs teams powers namely: strength , duration , efficiency and range. And gives everyone innate radiation damage for there weapons.  And the sleep passive i like as well or maybe a mind wipe amnesia passive. 

Edited November 6, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[taiiat]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

And gives everyone innate radiation damage for there weapons.

• it needs to be a fairly low value to not step on Oberons' toes.
• what if i actually don't want someone to add Damage Types to my Weapons? because i actually don't in real Gameplay, i'd only desire Damage Types being added if it was planned for ahead of time.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

11 minutes ago, taiiat said:

• it needs to be a fairly low value to not step on Oberons' toes.
• what if i actually don't want someone to add Damage Types to my Weapons? because i actually don't in real Gameplay, i'd only desire Damage Types being added if it was planned for ahead of time.

All 4 then, because lets face it with nyx "there is no spoon" and fusion reactors or invented using sticks and bananas.

 

Edited November 6, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

Nyx right here. Who has scene the movie "Lucy"?

maybe to OP lol

Edited November 6, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Azamagon]

While I'm not able to contribute to Nyx's passive, there is one thing I think would be awesome, giving her a more active playstyle when combining #4 and #1:

While Absorbing, you can cast your other abilities (at the very least her #1 and #2), even without her augment, but more interestingly:

Holdcasting MC while Absorbing gives you direct control of your current MC target! While you manually control it, you could possibly still cast Psycich Bolts (maybe eminate from the MC-target rather than from Nyx? Or that's too much of a stretch?)

The enemy you control can't parkour and such, but should be able to do a bunch of things:
* Regular attacks (if more than one attack available, secondary fire should do something too, preferably) with reload and all (unlimited ammo reserves)
* Melee with whatever they usually use at short range (humanoids do the weaponbash thing)
* Sprint
* Jump
* Humanoid units can crouch at a still position (gives you the "hiding behind cover" animation)

Yes, this would probably take a lot of effort to program in correctly... but it could add so much fun!

Some other things for her:
Mind control - Augment baselined. Make augment instead into "Mind Link" - X% of damage taken while you have an MC target will be transferred to the MC target instead. This is reversed when Nyx is using Absorb (damage taken by the MC unit is transferred to her Absorb amount instead. This has further synergy with the manual MC idea too, keeping it alive for longer).
Psychic Bolts - Dunno what else could be added here. Maybe: Also alters the struck units' damagedealing: If it attacks enemies (i.e., its allies), its damage is greatly increased, but if it attacks Nyx or any of her allies, the damage is greatly decreased.
Chaos - All enemies suffer 5/10/15/20% more damage taken from all sources. If the damagesource is an enemy however, this boost is 5x higher (thus 25/50/75/100%). Bonus is affected by Power Strength (but probably not the enemysource multiplier).

All these changes could probably leave Nyx more viable for a new buildstyle: A power strengh focused one! With that, enemies are better at killing themselves with Chaos + Psychic Bolts, your MC target would hit like a truck, and P.Bolts would do some decent hurting in itself.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Azamagon

[taiiat]

while 'assuming direct control' is neat in theory, since Players find that Mind Freak with high Power Strength still has limited effectiveness - controlling an Enemy directly is unlikely to be very useful.

heh, and new Animations and control for the Enemy you control to be able to Sprint and Jump. getting complex now aren't we.

[Azamagon]

3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

while 'assuming direct control' is neat in theory, since Players find that Mind Freak with high Power Strength still has limited effectiveness - controlling an Enemy directly is unlikely to be very useful.

heh, and new Animations and control for the Enemy you control to be able to Sprint and Jump. getting complex now aren't we.

Biggest part of that problem is a scaling problem *shrugs*

I don't think it would need new animations, as enemies can already sprint and jump :)

[taiiat]

2 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

as enemies can already sprint and jump :)

not so much - they have a 'Jog' Animation, but that's nowhere near the Speed Players expect. and they don't have a real Jump Animation, but most importantly they are incapable of jumping. when you see Enemies 'Jump', they have Naved to a point in space where there is a 'Jump Point'. a scripted point in space where an Enemy can magically traverse from A to B and visa versa.

(and even at like, Lv10 Players would already be disappointed at making Enemies Kill each other)

[Archwizard]

I mean... you could always just not let enemies jump while you're assuming direct control.

[tnccs215]

4 hours ago, Archwizard said:

you're assuming direct control.

That reference

[Archwizard]

On 11/6/2016 at 6:14 AM, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

a buff for Warframe powers: range, efficientcy, strength and duration. 

On 11/6/2016 at 6:52 AM, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

I like the idea of a 2 for nyx that buffs teams powers namely: strength , duration , efficiency and range. And gives everyone innate radiation damage for there weapons.  

... No.

For starters, if the buffs were at all significant to start with, it'd put Equinox out of work. Not simply an "alternative", but an outright better version.

Secondly, it would also mean the only one of Nyx's powers to benefit from the Power Strength increase provided by her own power... would be the damage minimum on Absorb.

Third, it just doesn't make any more sense for that to be in her kit compared to literally any other caster.

On 11/6/2016 at 7:42 AM, Azamagon said:

While I'm not able to contribute to Nyx's passive, there is one thing I think would be awesome, giving her a more active playstyle when combining #4 and #1:

While Absorbing, you can cast your other abilities (at the very least her #1 and #2), even without her augment, but more interestingly:

Holdcasting MC while Absorbing gives you direct control of your current MC target!

It sounds good... but also steps on the toes of the Phoenix ability for Ember in the OP. I'd probably have to rewrite that...

[Azamagon]

Just now, Archwizard said:

It sounds good... but also steps on the toes of the Phoenix ability for Ember in the OP. I'd probably have to rewrite that...

Well, to be completely honest, your Phoenix idea doesn't seem all too much fun, at least not as an ability on Ember. I just can't see how it really fits her, sorry, no offense meant.
On Nyx, however, who has a bit more of a immobile / passive / pacifying playstyle with Chaos and Absorb, and who can also keep herself quite safe with Absorb, taking control of a unit seems a far more feasible idea on her. Not to mention it fits her more due her telepathic / telekinetic powers. At least, that's in my opinion.

As for Ember, I have played with her quite a lot recently and I kind of like WoF's "passive" style, as it makes her feel very active in the form of moving around. It's a tad too strong (on low levels) and cheesy, yes, but it is fun in its own, somehow. If I'd suggest some tweaks for her, they wouldn't be all too far from her current style:

Heat procs
Stackable, but for possible balancing, only stackable when the procs are from different sources (so spamming Fireball won't stack tons of DoTs on a singular target, but you can benefit from both Fireball's heat DoT AND WoF's heat DoT AND an Ignis heat DoT (and more) on the same target, etc)

Fireball
Now has the "ring of fire" upon impact (stolen from Fire Blast, numbers possibly needing some tweaking). Wether the "ring" is still a ring or just visually a ring (dealing damage in the full area) doesn't truly matter to me.
This gives the ability a more distinct versatililty (long range area denial, mainly), rather than just being an incredibly bland projectile nuke that is almost always pointless to use.

Accelerant
I honestly have no problems with this skill, other than the extreme pidgeonholing of pure Heat. As per your OP, giving (a much weaker) boost to Heat-combined elements would be indeed be nice (Heat alone should still be the most optimal modding choice though, imo)

Fire Blast
The lingering "ring of fire" is gone (moved to Fireball), but Fire Blast's damage is increased, the pushback is forced and enemies struck by Fire Blast will have their heat procs' DoT sped up (by a considerable amount, like up to at least 100%, meaning twice as fast), for a moderate duration (this benefits the DoT from the striking Fire Blast as well). This DoT speed-up is inspired by the idea of "fighting fire with fire", mainly from the real-life useage of shockwaves from explosions to extinguish fires. Ember just does it in her own cruel way...

World on Fire
Flat damage amount greatly reduced (like down to 100), but now also deals a percent of the target's CURRENT health (say 5%?). This reduces the lowlevel cheese to some extent, but also gives it greater scalability at the same time, without making it TOO powerful in scalability as well.
Furthermore, maybe make the explosion only occur on enemies who are in your line of sight and/or reduce the range a bit?

Cheese reduced, scalability improved, whole kit has a use, more synergy added, current playstyle relatively intact, all while not making anything too radical or extreme.
Not too bad right? :)

[taiiat]

no need to get worried about Fire DoT - you just tune Ability based sources to consider that the DoT would actually be relevant to the Abilities rather than the Cosmetic it has been.

[Azamagon]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

no need to get worried about Fire DoT - you just tune Ability based sources to consider that the DoT would actually be relevant to the Abilities rather than the Cosmetic it has been.

Just wanted to suggest something precautionary, in case it would be too powerful. Of course I'd prefer if it was fully stackable as the Toxic and Slash DoT are, then they'd all be consistent.
It was also slightly meant to further promote relatively frequent use of Fire Blast and its suggested heat-DoT speedup component (well, that would of course still be very useful even if heat DoTs were fully stackable, but I digress)

[tnccs215]

On ‎06‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 2:52 PM, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

I like the idea of a 2 for nyx that buffs teams powers namely: strength , duration , efficiency and range. And gives everyone innate radiation damage for there weapons.  And the sleep passive i like as well or maybe a mind wipe amnesia passive. 

I think you literally got enough material to make a frame's full kit and threw it onto a power.

I think I don't need to say that would probably be overpowered. Or worse, made irrelevant in order not to be over powered.

[Archwizard]

On 11/7/2016 at 2:01 PM, Azamagon said:

Well, to be completely honest, your Phoenix idea doesn't seem all too much fun, at least not as an ability on Ember. I just can't see how it really fits her, sorry, no offense meant.
On Nyx, however, who has a bit more of a immobile / passive / pacifying playstyle with Chaos and Absorb, and who can also keep herself quite safe with Absorb, taking control of a unit seems a far more feasible idea on her. Not to mention it fits her more due her telepathic / telekinetic powers. At least, that's in my opinion.

As for Ember, I have played with her quite a lot recently and I kind of like WoF's "passive" style, as it makes her feel very active in the form of moving around. It's a tad too strong (on low levels) and cheesy, yes, but it is fun in its own, somehow. If I'd suggest some tweaks for her, they wouldn't be all too far from her current style:

Honestly, it's less that World on Fire feels "cheesy" and more that it's not cohesive with the rest of her kit. I figured giving Ember the ability to project herself would help with the fact that she's a (still relatively squishy) caster with radial powers, and could be tweaked to give her some scalability by means of energy economy. Her base kit just doesn't have the mobility or mitigation to synergize with World on Fire (she's got Accelerant, but if that's all the synergy her kit has, it's frankly lazy).

Fireball used to have an environmental effect like you're asking for. Problem was that it clipped on absolutely everything (including the air) and had to be removed.

[Azamagon]

19 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Honestly, it's less that World on Fire feels "cheesy" and more that it's not cohesive with the rest of her kit. I figured giving Ember the ability to project herself would help with the fact that she's a (still relatively squishy) caster with radial powers, and could be tweaked to give her some scalability by means of energy economy. Her base kit just doesn't have the mobility or mitigation to synergize with World on Fire (she's got Accelerant, but if that's all the synergy her kit has, it's frankly lazy).

Fireball used to have an environmental effect like you're asking for. Problem was that it clipped on absolutely everything (including the air) and had to be removed.

I honestly don't find a problem with WoF (bar nurmerically being a bit on the cheesy end for low level stuff), as it promotes a very mobile playstyle which I personally enjoy a lot  (having no mobility in her kit is ok imo, probably as I modded her to be quick and that works wonderfully well). I rather find the problems being:

* Heat procs' lack of stackability - Since heat procs don't stack and WoF procs deal the most damage (along with direct-hit Fireballs, which are more costly and way harder to hit), there is really no point in using the Fireball and Fire Blast for the sake of heat procs.

* Fireball only has TWO things going for it: Range and onehanded cast (with range being the more important part). Fireball is almost entirely pointless in her kit, throughout my playtime I've maybe thrown a dozen Fireballs that seriously did something I couldn't currently do with my other abilities or weapons (with the right weapons, I'd done it with those instead). That's... honestly utter crap, even for a #1 ability.

* Fire Blast is in a much better state than Fireball, as it at least has a big AoE with (slightly unreliable) CC to blast away enemies when it gets really crowded (since WoF only hits a limitted amount enemies per second) + the ring has proven useful on occasion. Problem with Fire Blast, as you already know, is that the ring and the wave are so contradicting to one another: One wants enemies close, one pushes enemies away... derp. Further, using the ring for area denial requires you to go to said area, which can be a risky and often unrewarding task anyway.

* Overall lack of synergy - As you mention, Accelerant is the only ability which synergizes with the other abilities, but all the others don't really complement each other, other than filling in each others' weaknesses (WoF takes care of most things, FBlast covers an overcrowded area, FBall takes care of very distant targets (often better dealt via weaponry anyway)).

I personally feel that making WoF into your Phoenix doesn't really make her more cohesive, nor does it fix most of the lack of synergy, it just makes her use a less personally mobile style (i.e., makes her more like a defender than a rusher, which maybe is a good thing anyway for anticheesing? Which is also the reason I find the manual unit control better on Nyx, as she has already has a far more passive / stationary style than Ember)). It's rather radical (maybe for the better?), but I prefer trying to make the things that exist work first. Hence, I'll try to explain more thoroughly why I suggested my ideas again:

1) Making heat procs stack means that no "lesser" heat procs gets in the way of your stronger heat procs.

2) Giving Fireball the ring of fire (which I would have no problems with in regards to clipping, as the old lingering fire on Fireball was really UGLY and obstructive, while the ring of fire from current Fire Blast looks nice and is sufficiently transparent), fixes all of the issues mentioned above about the ring of fire when it is a part of Fire Blast.
This would even give you some potential to synergize: Fire Blast enemies away into distant spots, spots then easily covered with rings of fire where you want them with Fireball. Fireball's range simply makes it far more suitable to be the "lingering area denial"-tool than Fire Blast.
Giving it the ring of fire also makes it the (potentially) most rewarding (flat) damage ability in her kit (if you can keep enemies in the ring's area), which I find highly fitting, as it is the hardest ability in her kit to apply correctly.
I find that DE's (generally older) model of the "damage done from an ability is based on the ability-order" (as can be especially noted on 'frames like Ember and Frost) is incredibly bad design (as it leads to ulti-spam), it should rather consider ease of use (in which ability range is included) first.

3) Making Fire Blast also speed up heat procs gives it a purpose similar to Accelerant, but in its own unique way. Thus, Fire Blast synergizes with the rest of the kit, similarly to (but also stacking with) Accelerant.
Also, forcing the ragdoll pushback means it would actually be better as a CC and panic tool.
Upping its damage a notch also gives back some flat nuking power to Ember (as I suggested that WoF deals far less flat damage), and it also feels like a better place to give  her the flat damage on this ability (and on Fireball, done via the ring) considering WoF's considerable ease of use and constant activity.

4) WoF being less powerful in flat damage, but also giving it some damage based on enemies' current health means that it becomes more a tool for easily applied CC and as an enemy softener. This also gives further reason for Fire Blast and Fireball to exist, as they'd be good to actually finish off enemies weakened by WoF. It also gives her some general scalability, but without making it scale in such a way that it trivializes everything (like if it would do if the damage was based on enemies' MAX health instead).
Also, since the change keeps the general "personally mobile" mechanic intact and is thus less radical (mainly just being a numerical one), it is easier to implement, thus also more likely to happen, and hopefully also less problematic in terms of anrgy player response :P

Note: I'm not completely dissing your Phoenix idea, as it is indeed a neat idea. But in Ember's particular case, I really don't think she needs such a radical change.
 

[(PSN)B_Psycho2]

Limbo passive

 

Dimensional Mastery: Ranged attacks have a 35% chance to completely miss Limbo. Limbo gains numerous stat benefits inside of the rift, at the cost of this debuff to enemy weapon accuracy. (50% Damage reduction (because putting a cataclysm up in order to generate energy for your team shouldn't mean you die instantly), +33% Sprint speed (Calculates after sprint mods), and +50% weapon damage, adding +10% for every living entity that is in the rift, to a maximum of +200% damage. 

 

1- Banish (Suggestion)- Banished enemies cannot interact with objects outside of the rift 

Effects: Allies can now pick up items, and use consoles while in the rift. For a master of this plane of existence, losing the ability to touch any objects or consoles indicates a pretty bad power.Lots of frames can be invincible. ANY FRAME has pseudo-invincibility what with Zenurik-Energize-Rage-P.Flow-QT, and Naramon.  So why for this way of invincibilty make it so limited?

 

2- Rift Walk (Suggestion)- Now that rift torrent is in the passive, there can be a new augment 

Augment- Shadow Walk- While in the rift plane, Limbo is invisible. Backflipping will turn this off.

 

Also, I personally do not enjoy rift gate, but that's just my opinion. 

[Archwizard]

I've always agreed with Heat Procs being stackable.

I still disagree with having Fire Blast lose the lingering flames, since it has a lot more potential for an environmental effect than Fireballs do due to its size - and having a Fireball drop a ring of equivalent size would be too much for 25 energy. Not that Fireballs can't make the patches too, I suppose, but if Fire Blast is intended to be Ember's main defensive tool then it makes sense for it to have a lingering defense that's substantially stronger than Accelerant's stun. With the knockback alone, it wouldn't be. 
I don't see Fire Blast's ring and knockback wave as contradictory, when you remember that Ember was originally intended to be anti-Infested/Light Grineer (both groups of which are predominately melee); the ideal is that the ring isn't an area of damage, but a safe zone similar to an anti-melee version of Snow Globe. The issue there is primarily in implementation, since enemies aren't guaranteed a stun even with the augment.

Plus I don't see why Accelerant shouldn't have increased ticking speed as one of its effects instead of Fire Blast. Its name is literally derived from "accelerate". For instance, it could have the same damage boost across all elements, and for Heat in particular, double the ticks in the same time frame.

And while I will concede that the Phoenix is just one of a plethora of options rather than the end-all-be-all, having World on Fire be "the same, but with better damage" doesn't actually address its core issue: What the hell its place within the kit is.
Let's review: Ember jumps down into a crowd of Infested and drops Accelerant. With every enemy afflicted, she slams down Fire Blast to fling them all away, using the lingering ring as a final stopping point to maintain distance from returning enemies and mark a personal "safe zone". On their way back, Ember shoots a barrage of Fireballs to pick them off or chain-stun them longer. If one of the core steps is putting distance between herself and melee enemies, where does a proximity damage effect like World on Fire come into play?