Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Archwizard]

I have a couple suggestions for tweaks to zephyr

 

Shouldn't Zephyr's abilities do gas damage? I don't have any problem with magnetic but it only makes sense right? WTF kind of tornadoes are made out of magnets?

 

Technically speaking, the wind doesn't have anything to do with gas composition so much as air pressure, which is something that can't quite be accounted for with the elements available in game.

Besides, Gas damage is officially the least useful damage type in the game, and the only ability of hers that DOES Magnetic damage is Tornado, which is adaptable.

 

Well, the thing is, Dive Bomb has about the same CC effectiveness as Valkyr's Paralysis (which costs 1/5 the amount of energy and is more spammable). When it comes down to actually being in combat (not just against a few targets), the only real CC that Zephyr has is her Ult.

 

I think it's a little bit apples to oranges though, as Paralysis also consumes a percentage of your remaining shields upon cast in lieu of energy. Still, I made a note in the OP that might help the differentiation. 

 

Durendal, you gave Oberon an ability named after the sword of an actual historical paladin. And the effect with it is nice too.

I can almost imagine it as a giant glowing galatine of holy vengeance sweeping through enemies. 

Everything else in his new touch ups look great. 

 

I initially hoped for Durendal to be Oberon's name, as a contrast to Excalibur. Never was really certain why they named him after a fairy and his helmets after bovids, rather than anything involved with the clergy or knighthood. I get that he's got antlers, but I'm totally fine with that when you consider that those were the sorts of creatures present on a coat of arms - Stags represented wisdom and rejuvenation, Antelope represent sacrifice and protection, Goats represent vitality, Antlers represent strength, etc. Sometimes I feel they went overboard with "lol hooves", rather than focusing on his theme.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Archwizard

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

I initially hoped for Durendal to be Oberon's name, as a contrast to Excalibur. Never was really certain why they named him after a fairy and his helmets after bovids, rather than anything involved with the clergy or knighthood. I get that he's got antlers, but I'm totally fine with that when you consider that those were the sorts of creatures present on a coat of arms - Stags represented wisdom and rejuvenation, Antelope represent sacrifice and protection, Goats represent vitality, Antlers represent strength, etc. Sometimes I feel they went overboard with "lol hooves", rather than focusing on his theme.

I think Oberon's actually supposed to be a Druid/Satyr/Forest Spirit, but considering that in most MMORPG's (i.e. WoW) Druids and Paladins basically have the same abilities (except for visual effects, of course) someone at DE probably got confused. They should probably just change the description.

[Noble_Cactus]

From a practical standpoint, Oberon is probably easier for people to say than Durendal. Even if it's connected with fairies/dwarves, I actually like the name. My guess is that his original concept in the DE meeting room was of a pure Druid frame, but somewhere along the way, they decided to blur the lines between two classic European myth figures but didn't quite pull all the way through.

[Vaskadar]

Frost

 

His 1st power could have 70% of its damage removed if Freeze was made into an AOE attack that froze targets, and slowed those breaking out of freeze after 20% to 30% health damage was received.

 

Ice Wave should function like a lingering barrier of ice, slowing all that step into its effective range. Those caught directly in the middle would get knocked back while being slowed. Deals extra damage to targets in a frozen state.

 

Avalanche should produce an expanding AOE that induces the cold proc, then freezes enemies after one to two seconds of exposure. This version should be renamed to Blizzard. Cold DoT effect added and turned into a toggle. Frozen targets can take up to 50% health damage before breaking out of freeze (if damage source is from something aside from Blizzard itself)

 

The other potential alternate for Avalanche is a rolling avalanche of ice and snow, capable of being ridden by Frost if cast mid-air. Avalanche accumulates mass with the more targets it hits. Freezes targets that have been hit.

[LukeAura]

I think Oberon's actually supposed to be a Druid/Satyr/Forest Spirit, but considering that in most MMORPG's (i.e. WoW) Druids and Paladins basically have the same abilities (except for visual effects, of course) someone at DE probably got confused. They should probably just change the description.

At least they didn't go so far with the Oberon idea as to give him love/aphrodisiac powers just like in a midsummer night's dream. 

 

[MechaKnight]

For Oberon:

Due to Oberon's habit for Radiation damage, he isn't so great against infested. A simple idea I have would be to change Hallowed Ground's damage type to fire, and give it a chance to proc fire status on any enemy that walks over it. While Hallowed Ground may not be good against all factions all the time, it is already unusually effective against the mostly melee infested faction, and this damage type and proc change could give it a satisfying boost. If a combination element is preffered over a pure one, Blast damage would be very nice for procs, and has perks against Infested Ancients and a few other enemies.

 

For Saryn:

Your idea for making Contagion similar to Overheat is something I've pondered for a while. Here's an early attempt of mine spoilered below.

The below originates from this thread.

 

I’m sure most of us agree that Contagion is an awful ability to use as of now, but let’s get constructive. It seems that the most popular suggestions as to how to fix Contagion is to use a derivative of the old Overheat. I will consider this retired ability along with current in-game warframe melee abilities of similar nature to come to an agreeable conclusion.

 

The most ideal comparison for a melee ability to start with as a base is Valkyr’s Warcry, with consideration of Ash’s and Loki’s melee bonus limits. It has the same point cost as Contagion, and is accepted as a balanced melee ability.

 

At base, the bonuses this ability contributes are:

50% ally speed buff

50% ally armor buff

30% enemy debuff

The ability has a 25 meter range, and lasts for 15 seconds. It costs 75 energy.

 

Compared to Contagion’s single 75% poison damage for 20 seconds, it’s far superior. I’ll do my best to approximate these bonuses to Saryn, and find some alternatives.

 

Our community seems to want most of all, damage reduction and toxic emanation from Saryn, which is definitely within the domain of Overheat. However, this ability was retired, due to the nature of the warframe it was applied to, and possible imbalance. I’ll list the bonuses just the same. The bonuses are:

 

200 fire damage within 0.5 meters of the caster (not scaled off power strength or power range)

40% damage reduction (scaled with power strength)

For 20 seconds (scaled off power duration), for a cost of 50 energy.

 

That’s Overheat. Clearly it confers a bonus for being close to enemies, but it did not give incentive to be close all the time or perform melee, so players just put it on for protection and kept using guns. A true melee ability has to have melee incentive.

 

I’m pretty sure 50 energy is too cheap for what Overheat did, so 75 energy is the first adjustment.

 

Secondly, it goes without saying the fire damage will be changed to toxin, but to make this ability appeal to melee, it must be merged with properties similar to Valkyr’s Warcry to give this ability melee incentive.

 

The damage reduction should also scale with power, but the base amount needs to be discussed for balance. Alternatively, we can go the route of buffing armor, similar to Valkyr’s Warcry. The following discussion will compare the warframes, assuming maxed Vitality, Steel Fiber, and Redirection is worn by both.

 

Let’s consider Valkyr first.

 

She has 600 base armor, and 100 base health. She will gain an additional +200 HP at rank 30.

 

The calculation for effective health points (EHP) is:

Effective Health = Base Health * (1 + (Armor / 300))

 

So Valkyr has with maxed Vitality and Steel Fiber: 3848 EHP, plus 370 shields with Redirection, she will have 4218 points of damage resistance.

 

While under the effect of Warcry, at base power strength she will have 5402 effective health.

She will have a mild 370 shield afterwards.

This totals to 5772 points of damage resistance.

 

If Warcry is maxed in power strength, Valkyr will have 7406.66 EHP, and the shields will bring her damage total to 7776 points.

 

Saryn has more health points, but lower armor. Her base EHP with Vitality and Steel Fiber is: 2314.35 EHP, with 740 shields on top, she will take 3054 damage before she gets floored.

 

With Warcry at base, she has 2916.525 EHP, and with power strength maxed Warcry, she has 3693.33075 EHP, and with 740 shields on top, 4433 damage.

 

Saryn with this armor boosting scheme will have 57% Valkyr’s damage limit before getting floored. To approach this limit, the armor multiplier needs a significant buff, but the only reason why Valkyr’s buff was shared amongst the team was because it was planned that no other warframe would have so much armor, and therefore an adjusted version for Saryn could not share its benefit with the team for reason of being too powerful. Other bonuses will have to be conferred to the team.

 

Let’s try to bring Saryn between 80% to 85% of the damage tolerance Valkyr has. We’ll cover the remaining lost portion with a small ability bonus later. If this draft is used,

Saryn’s self-applied armor boost from Contagion would need to be…

 

150% armor boost at base cast of the skill would confer 4120.875 EHP, and with 740 shields added on top, she will have 4860 damage. This will bring her to 84.199% of what Valkyr can tolerate at Warcry’s base armor buff. Alternatively, the buff can be 120%, and she will have 3759.57 EHP plus 740 shields, 4499 damage cap, which is 77.9% of Valkyr’s damage cap.

 

The power maxed version of the 150% draft would give Saryn 6451.29 EHP, and the 740 shields stacked on top will confer7191 damage tolerance. This is 92% of what Valkyr can tolerate with her version of this ability, Warcry. Alternatively, the 120% draft version will be power maxed to give 274.8% damage reduction, which will confer 5623.9 EHP, rounded down then boosted by 740 shields to give 6363 damage cap, which is 81.8% of Valkyr’s ability. So for better balance, we’ll take the draft that gives Saryn an initial armor boost of 120%, which is modifiable by power strength. The lost percentage can be compensated for by adding a small fun effect.

 

Alternatively to the above, we can go the simpler route and attempt to achieve the same effect using total damage reduction instead of armor boosting. Within the discussion of comparative buff effects from the original Warcry, Saryn had only 57% of the durability Valkyr has when the ability had maximum power strength. To achieve even protection from her skill using pure damage reduction, the power strength maxed iteration of the new Contagion would confer just over 75% damage reduction, so reverse-calculating down from maxed power strength, the starting damage reduction would be about 33% base. We can lower it down to 30% damage reduction, which is a loss to Saryn but otherwise the numbers are cleaner. This version is a simple, yet well-balanced approach to rebalancing Overheat’s damage reduction. It will cost 75 energy as opposed to 50, and it will confer 30% damage reduction as opposed to 40%, keeping the ability within balance of Valkyr’s Warcry. This is supposed to be a melee skill however, so it’s time to give melee incentive.

 

Valkyr can already boost other Valkyr players and take turns giving buffs, so we wouldn’t want to superbuff Valkyr to insane armor levels. Based on whichever one of the three drafts that are selected from what I suggested above, we’ll have the remaining to balance out:

 

If using the 150% base armor increasing version, we’ll have a minor 8% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

 

If using the 120% base armor increasing version, we have 20% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

 

If using my 30% base damage reduction version, we have practically nothing to cover for, and the additional effect can be left on the cutting room floor.

 

Regardless of which option you and/or the developers choose to use, we still have to compensate for that large chunk of team defense utility that was scrapped from Valkyr’s original Warcry, to suit Saryn’s personality—we’ll get there soon enough. As the original Warcry did, this will only apply to teammates and enemies within range of the initial skill cast, and will last for the duration of the ability on those affected targets. Contagion already has a timer between reuse, so appropriating a derivative of Warcry+Overheat splicing to her will work without need of adjustment, and players can use the ability as they already have been.

 

Valkyr’s ability granted 50% additional melee speed at base power strength, and granted 114.5% melee speed buff with maxed power strength. Enemy speed at base power strength is reduced by 30%, and at maxed power strength reduced by 68.7%.

 

Observing our melee mods, Attack speed is at a higher premium per percentage added than base attack damage, and elemental damage costs a bit more per percentage than base damage. So the ratio of base speed (Fury)/base damage (Pressure Point)/base element damage (Fever Strike) in the mods is 30/120/90, which is factored down to 1/4/3. So for every one percent of attack speed percentage added, we can add three percent toxin damage. So simply speaking, we take Valkyr’s melee speed boost, and convert it to toxin damage on weapons, multiplied by three. So Saryn’s conversion of this skill would confer 150% additional toxin damage at base, power strength maxed to 343.5% toxin damage added to melee weapons, for all of your teammates. This converts Valkyr’s team bonus to something that makes sense for Saryn’s slower, toxic nature, and is still within limits of Ash’s and Loki’s cloak melee damage buff of 400%.

 

We still have to compensate for the missing half of team bonuses. It’s fair to say that team bonuses are worth as much as enemy debuffs, so this is an option to consider. This all has to happen within range of the ability itself.

 

To compensate for half of the team bonus lost, I’ll convert it directly to harmful effect applied to enemies. I opt for 200 toxin damage impact applied to all enemies within the area with a 100% forced proc chance. Toxin proc deals 50% the initial damage, so enemies will generally take 100 damage per second for 9 ticks within 8 seconds, which will be 900 damage total after 8 seconds. The logic for this skill is Ember’s Fire Storm ability with partial effectiveness. Fire Storm deals 150 damage per tick base. It deals one tick at the start, and one tick per second thereafter, for a total of 21 ticks of damage at base, equating to 3150 damage. Since Warcry has 25 meters initial range, Saryn’s new Contagion will also have this range. The 25 meter instant effect with range scaling is weighed against Ember’s persistent trap with duration scaling, on equal basis, then divided by three since this feature is supposed to be worth a third of an established warframe ability of equal point value. Alternatively, this damage feature can be replaced by a 4% per hit lifestrike bonus to all teammate melee weapons. Alternatively, a potent damage aura of 200 toxin damage per second within 0.5 meters can emanate from Saryn. All effects can even be included depending on how the overall warframe buffing pattern happens which may raise the power ceiling for what abilities are expected to do for their energy cost.

 

So far so good, all that’s left is to consider a unique effect applied to Saryn herself to cover the missing chunk of the defense value the skill should have given. What we have so far is…

 

Contagion:

 

Within 25 meters instantly, applies various effects to teammates and enemies, which once applied lasts for a duration of 15 seconds if the effect is meant to be persistent. This ability scales with power strength, range, and duration.

 

To teammates:

Instead of a 50% speed buff to team melee weapons, grant a 150% (strength modifiable) toxin damage buff to team melee weapons. This damage effect should not combine with already existing elements on weapons, but should be added separately after. It will last for the duration of the ability.

 

Instead of granting a 50% armor increase to allies, apply 200 toxin damage (strength modifiable) with 100% proc chance to enemies within ability range. It is an instant effect, so it will not be affected by power duration. It is a single hit of toxin with 100% status chance (always happens), and the status will only last for 8 seconds. Alternatively, % life strike per hit for the duration of the ability.

 

Both Warcry and Contagion will apply the same 30% debuff to enemy speed. This effect will last for the duration of the ability.

 

All that’s left to cover for is the possible loss of Saryn’s defense from the adaptation of Warcry, based on which draft you chose to use. A mild yet helpful offensive effect should do the trick. If you used the 150% armor buff base, we compensate for the 8% defense loss with 10 toxin damage per second aura around Saryn within 0.5 meters of herself. This range does not scale with power range mods. If you went with the 120% armor buff base, it should be a 25 toxin damage per second aura within 0.5 meters of herself. If the 30% damage reduction draft was chosen, I suppose this feature need not be here.

 

This is my first draft of my Contagion overhaul, kept within balance best I could. It’s still a work in progress, so do offer constructive guidance, and hopefully [DE] will consider these ideas for the Contagion rework, because it sure needs one.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2014 by MechaKnight

[taiiat]

A simple idea I have would be to change Hallowed Ground's damage type to fire, and give it a chance to proc fire status on any enemy that walks over it.

why not Radiation and Fire?

[MechaKnight]

why not Radiation and Fire?

I mean, it's possible. I've never seen an ability use two elements in one impact, but I assume if it's possible on a weapon, it's possible in an ability. The major problem with radiation damage is the immense -50% and -75% damage reductions on infested. Fire damage does poorly on corpus shields at -50% damage, but otherwise fine. The only time Blast damage loss feels significant is against Phorid's -50% reduction, but other factions take fairly good damage from it.

[Noble_Cactus]

I mean, it's possible. I've never seen an ability use two elements in one impact, but I assume if it's possible on a weapon, it's possible in an ability. The major problem with radiation damage is the immense -50% and -75% damage reductions on infested. Fire damage does poorly on corpus shields at -50% damage, but otherwise fine. The only time Blast damage loss feels significant is against Phorid's -50% reduction, but other factions take fairly good damage from it.

 

Tidal Surge does first Impact, then Slash when it hits an enemy. The Impact is only when the wave makes contact and the Slash is only when the wave finishes, though.

 

Tail Wind is similar. It deals Impact damage to enemies next to her when she takes off, and Slash damage to anyone caught in her flight path. 

[MechaKnight]

Tidal Surge does first Impact, then Slash when it hits an enemy. The Impact is only when the wave makes contact and the Slash is only when the wave finishes, though.

 

Tail Wind is similar. It deals Impact damage to enemies next to her when she takes off, and Slash damage to anyone caught in her flight path. 

Actually along the lines of what I said, but with more detail. Abilities still don't deal two damage types in one impact, but can carry multiple impact phases. The Tidal Surge example is interesting, it's two overlapping hits. Ember's Firestorm also exhibits similar behavior with a large hit of fire followed by a continuous scripted effect that hits with fire once a second in a smaller area. I don't know an ability that say, deals a combination of damage types like puncture, impact, and slash as our weapons do within one hit, or multiple elements in one hit, but I'm sure it's possible.

 

I just want to clarify before this runs into a tangent, I only explored the possibility of multiple damage types per hit (and their associated procs) to support the idea of using two elements in Oberon's Hallowed Ground as oppossed to just one.

Edited September 3, 2014 by MechaKnight

[RealPandemonium]

Uh, Oberon's 1 and 4 both do two damage types simultaneously (Impact and Radiation.)  

 

Adding Corrosive or Blast (with status chance!) to Hallowed Ground would be cool and make it more effective against Infested. 

[MechaKnight]

Uh, Oberon's 1 and 4 both do two damage types simultaneously (Impact and Radiation.)  

 

Adding Corrosive or Blast (with status chance!) to Hallowed Ground would be cool and make it more effective against Infested. 

I just checked the wiki, missed it myself, it's 50/50.

 

Adding those procs is a bonus feature, they can be implemented to any magnitude just for the sake of being there. Although corrosive proc wouldn't affect infested since they have no armor, the damage type still harms ancients.

 

A problem with implementation is if the proc per tick is too low. We'd see enemies sprint over the patch on the ground with no effect if the proc chance was too low.

Edited September 3, 2014 by MechaKnight

[taiiat]

A problem with implementation is if the proc per tick is too low. We'd see enemies sprint over the patch on the ground with no effect if the proc chance was too low.

Hallowed Ground is a slowfield, isn't it?

 

could've sworn it had a slowing effect. if not, then do that.

[Noble_Cactus]

Hallowed Ground is a slowfield, isn't it?

 

could've sworn it had a slowing effect. if not, then do that.

 

Nope. You might be confusing it with similar spells from other games. WoW's Desecration passive for the Death Knight spawns circles that slow down anyone who enters them (and are a massive pain to deal with in PvP). Interestingly enough, the Paladin's Consecration doesn't provide a slowdown.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[MechaKnight]

Nope. You might be confusing it with similar spells from other games. WoW's Desecration passive for the Death Knight spawns circles that slow down anyone who enters them (and are a massive pain to deal with in PvP). Interestingly enough, the Paladin's Consecration doesn't provide a slowdown.

Interestingly, this may be enough by itself to make Hallowed Ground more offensive, but the element change and status chance is also welcome.

[taiiat]

You might be confusing it with similar spells from other games.

definitely not... there aren't any other games similar to Warframe that i have played / play.

Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer being the closest comparison, and i definitely wouldn't confuse the two.

 

i wouldn't play WoW if someone paid me to. so i'm definitely not confusing those two.

[MechaKnight]

To taiiat and Noble_Cactus:

 

I've been a wanderer of games and I see similarities in Warframe from a lot of games. Granted Warframe is original in the total sum of its parts, there's elements from WoW, Ragnarok, GunZ, DMC, LoL, and many others. Various bits and pieces from the maneuvers to the mods feel like something I've seen before, yet I'm happy that the total package in Warframe feels fun.

 

That said, I've seen slow mechanics like this elsewhere, and it's not a bad idea for Hallowed Ground. It's a very good step to make it offensive and protective by cooking enemies longer while impeding them from moving onward. It may even slow their attack speed to help even more defensively.

[taiiat]

That said, I've seen slow mechanics like this elsewhere, and it's not a bad idea for Hallowed Ground. It's a very good step to make it offensive and protective by cooking enemies longer while impeding them from moving onward. It may even slow their attack speed to help even more defensively.

it also makes sense for that type of Power to me, it's placed on the ground, and seems only logical to have it in Chokepoints for maximum effectiveness.

slowing those Enemies fits perfectly in there.

 

 

Edit:

and yeah, Warframe as a complete package stands out and separates itself, but yes, games have been borrowing ideas from each other for thousands of years.

Edited September 3, 2014 by taiiat

[Archwizard]

I think Oberon's actually supposed to be a Druid/Satyr/Forest Spirit, but considering that in most MMORPG's (i.e. WoW) Druids and Paladins basically have the same abilities (except for visual effects, of course) someone at DE probably got confused. They should probably just change the description.

From a practical standpoint, Oberon is probably easier for people to say than Durendal. Even if it's connected with fairies/dwarves, I actually like the name. My guess is that his original concept in the DE meeting room was of a pure Druid frame, but somewhere along the way, they decided to blur the lines between two classic European myth figures but didn't quite pull all the way through.

 

Their official statement in the livestreams was that Scott planned on a Paladin, then they talked to Mynki and he decided to draw it up with a stag motif, whereupon they realized the Druidic implications.

 

In other words, the exact inverse.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

Their official statement in the livestreams was that Scott planned on a Paladin, then they talked to Mynki and he decided to draw it up with a stag motif, whereupon they realized the Druidic implications.

 

In other words, the exact inverse.

Oh, so it's Mynki's fault. :P

[Archwizard]

Oh, so it's Mynki's fault. :P

 

Not quite. I think the stag motif works (as explained), and there are animalistic themes in virtually every frame, barring Nekros and maybe Vauban. Unfortunately, everyone else decided to take the ball and roll with it for once.

[Elydir]

Not quite. I think the stag motif works (as explained), and there are animalistic themes in virtually every frame, barring Nekros and maybe Vauban. Unfortunately, everyone else decided to take the ball and roll with it for once.

 

True, I dont see Saryn's helmets calling her a snake or Loki's helmets calling him a shark... although Ashes is named after bugs and Zephyr, Hydroid and Ember have at least one each named after a mythical creature.

 

Mixed bag.

[Archwizard]

For Oberon:

Due to Oberon's habit for Radiation damage, he isn't so great against infested. A simple idea I have would be to change Hallowed Ground's damage type to fire, and give it a chance to proc fire status on any enemy that walks over it. While Hallowed Ground may not be good against all factions all the time, it is already unusually effective against the mostly melee infested faction, and this damage type and proc change could give it a satisfying boost. If a combination element is preffered over a pure one, Blast damage would be very nice for procs, and has perks against Infested Ancients and a few other enemies.

 

For Saryn:

Your idea for making Contagion similar to Overheat is something I've pondered for a while. Here's an early attempt of mine spoilered below.

The below originates from this thread.

 

I’m sure most of us agree that Contagion is an awful ability to use as of now, but let’s get constructive. It seems that the most popular suggestions as to how to fix Contagion is to use a derivative of the old Overheat. I will consider this retired ability along with current in-game warframe melee abilities of similar nature to come to an agreeable conclusion.

 

The most ideal comparison for a melee ability to start with as a base is Valkyr’s Warcry, with consideration of Ash’s and Loki’s melee bonus limits. It has the same point cost as Contagion, and is accepted as a balanced melee ability.

 

At base, the bonuses this ability contributes are:

50% ally speed buff

50% ally armor buff

30% enemy debuff

The ability has a 25 meter range, and lasts for 15 seconds. It costs 75 energy.

 

Compared to Contagion’s single 75% poison damage for 20 seconds, it’s far superior. I’ll do my best to approximate these bonuses to Saryn, and find some alternatives.

 

Our community seems to want most of all, damage reduction and toxic emanation from Saryn, which is definitely within the domain of Overheat. However, this ability was retired, due to the nature of the warframe it was applied to, and possible imbalance. I’ll list the bonuses just the same. The bonuses are:

 

200 fire damage within 0.5 meters of the caster (not scaled off power strength or power range)

40% damage reduction (scaled with power strength)

For 20 seconds (scaled off power duration), for a cost of 50 energy.

 

That’s Overheat. Clearly it confers a bonus for being close to enemies, but it did not give incentive to be close all the time or perform melee, so players just put it on for protection and kept using guns. A true melee ability has to have melee incentive.

 

I’m pretty sure 50 energy is too cheap for what Overheat did, so 75 energy is the first adjustment.

 

Secondly, it goes without saying the fire damage will be changed to toxin, but to make this ability appeal to melee, it must be merged with properties similar to Valkyr’s Warcry to give this ability melee incentive.

 

The damage reduction should also scale with power, but the base amount needs to be discussed for balance. Alternatively, we can go the route of buffing armor, similar to Valkyr’s Warcry. The following discussion will compare the warframes, assuming maxed Vitality, Steel Fiber, and Redirection is worn by both.

 

Let’s consider Valkyr first.

 

She has 600 base armor, and 100 base health. She will gain an additional +200 HP at rank 30.

 

The calculation for effective health points (EHP) is:

Effective Health = Base Health * (1 + (Armor / 300))

 

So Valkyr has with maxed Vitality and Steel Fiber: 3848 EHP, plus 370 shields with Redirection, she will have 4218 points of damage resistance.

 

While under the effect of Warcry, at base power strength she will have 5402 effective health.

She will have a mild 370 shield afterwards.

This totals to 5772 points of damage resistance.

 

If Warcry is maxed in power strength, Valkyr will have 7406.66 EHP, and the shields will bring her damage total to 7776 points.

 

Saryn has more health points, but lower armor. Her base EHP with Vitality and Steel Fiber is: 2314.35 EHP, with 740 shields on top, she will take 3054 damage before she gets floored.

 

With Warcry at base, she has 2916.525 EHP, and with power strength maxed Warcry, she has 3693.33075 EHP, and with 740 shields on top, 4433 damage.

 

Saryn with this armor boosting scheme will have 57% Valkyr’s damage limit before getting floored. To approach this limit, the armor multiplier needs a significant buff, but the only reason why Valkyr’s buff was shared amongst the team was because it was planned that no other warframe would have so much armor, and therefore an adjusted version for Saryn could not share its benefit with the team for reason of being too powerful. Other bonuses will have to be conferred to the team.

 

Let’s try to bring Saryn between 80% to 85% of the damage tolerance Valkyr has. We’ll cover the remaining lost portion with a small ability bonus later. If this draft is used,

Saryn’s self-applied armor boost from Contagion would need to be…

 

150% armor boost at base cast of the skill would confer 4120.875 EHP, and with 740 shields added on top, she will have 4860 damage. This will bring her to 84.199% of what Valkyr can tolerate at Warcry’s base armor buff. Alternatively, the buff can be 120%, and she will have 3759.57 EHP plus 740 shields, 4499 damage cap, which is 77.9% of Valkyr’s damage cap.

 

The power maxed version of the 150% draft would give Saryn 6451.29 EHP, and the 740 shields stacked on top will confer7191 damage tolerance. This is 92% of what Valkyr can tolerate with her version of this ability, Warcry. Alternatively, the 120% draft version will be power maxed to give 274.8% damage reduction, which will confer 5623.9 EHP, rounded down then boosted by 740 shields to give 6363 damage cap, which is 81.8% of Valkyr’s ability. So for better balance, we’ll take the draft that gives Saryn an initial armor boost of 120%, which is modifiable by power strength. The lost percentage can be compensated for by adding a small fun effect.

 

Alternatively to the above, we can go the simpler route and attempt to achieve the same effect using total damage reduction instead of armor boosting. Within the discussion of comparative buff effects from the original Warcry, Saryn had only 57% of the durability Valkyr has when the ability had maximum power strength. To achieve even protection from her skill using pure damage reduction, the power strength maxed iteration of the new Contagion would confer just over 75% damage reduction, so reverse-calculating down from maxed power strength, the starting damage reduction would be about 33% base. We can lower it down to 30% damage reduction, which is a loss to Saryn but otherwise the numbers are cleaner. This version is a simple, yet well-balanced approach to rebalancing Overheat’s damage reduction. It will cost 75 energy as opposed to 50, and it will confer 30% damage reduction as opposed to 40%, keeping the ability within balance of Valkyr’s Warcry. This is supposed to be a melee skill however, so it’s time to give melee incentive.

 

Valkyr can already boost other Valkyr players and take turns giving buffs, so we wouldn’t want to superbuff Valkyr to insane armor levels. Based on whichever one of the three drafts that are selected from what I suggested above, we’ll have the remaining to balance out:

 

If using the 150% base armor increasing version, we’ll have a minor 8% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

 

If using the 120% base armor increasing version, we have 20% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

 

If using my 30% base damage reduction version, we have practically nothing to cover for, and the additional effect can be left on the cutting room floor.

 

Regardless of which option you and/or the developers choose to use, we still have to compensate for that large chunk of team defense utility that was scrapped from Valkyr’s original Warcry, to suit Saryn’s personality—we’ll get there soon enough. As the original Warcry did, this will only apply to teammates and enemies within range of the initial skill cast, and will last for the duration of the ability on those affected targets. Contagion already has a timer between reuse, so appropriating a derivative of Warcry+Overheat splicing to her will work without need of adjustment, and players can use the ability as they already have been.

 

Valkyr’s ability granted 50% additional melee speed at base power strength, and granted 114.5% melee speed buff with maxed power strength. Enemy speed at base power strength is reduced by 30%, and at maxed power strength reduced by 68.7%.

 

Observing our melee mods, Attack speed is at a higher premium per percentage added than base attack damage, and elemental damage costs a bit more per percentage than base damage. So the ratio of base speed (Fury)/base damage (Pressure Point)/base element damage (Fever Strike) in the mods is 30/120/90, which is factored down to 1/4/3. So for every one percent of attack speed percentage added, we can add three percent toxin damage. So simply speaking, we take Valkyr’s melee speed boost, and convert it to toxin damage on weapons, multiplied by three. So Saryn’s conversion of this skill would confer 150% additional toxin damage at base, power strength maxed to 343.5% toxin damage added to melee weapons, for all of your teammates. This converts Valkyr’s team bonus to something that makes sense for Saryn’s slower, toxic nature, and is still within limits of Ash’s and Loki’s cloak melee damage buff of 400%.

 

We still have to compensate for the missing half of team bonuses. It’s fair to say that team bonuses are worth as much as enemy debuffs, so this is an option to consider. This all has to happen within range of the ability itself.

 

To compensate for half of the team bonus lost, I’ll convert it directly to harmful effect applied to enemies. I opt for 200 toxin damage impact applied to all enemies within the area with a 100% forced proc chance. Toxin proc deals 50% the initial damage, so enemies will generally take 100 damage per second for 9 ticks within 8 seconds, which will be 900 damage total after 8 seconds. The logic for this skill is Ember’s Fire Storm ability with partial effectiveness. Fire Storm deals 150 damage per tick base. It deals one tick at the start, and one tick per second thereafter, for a total of 21 ticks of damage at base, equating to 3150 damage. Since Warcry has 25 meters initial range, Saryn’s new Contagion will also have this range. The 25 meter instant effect with range scaling is weighed against Ember’s persistent trap with duration scaling, on equal basis, then divided by three since this feature is supposed to be worth a third of an established warframe ability of equal point value. Alternatively, this damage feature can be replaced by a 4% per hit lifestrike bonus to all teammate melee weapons. Alternatively, a potent damage aura of 200 toxin damage per second within 0.5 meters can emanate from Saryn. All effects can even be included depending on how the overall warframe buffing pattern happens which may raise the power ceiling for what abilities are expected to do for their energy cost.

 

So far so good, all that’s left is to consider a unique effect applied to Saryn herself to cover the missing chunk of the defense value the skill should have given. What we have so far is…

 

Contagion:

 

Within 25 meters instantly, applies various effects to teammates and enemies, which once applied lasts for a duration of 15 seconds if the effect is meant to be persistent. This ability scales with power strength, range, and duration.

 

To teammates:

Instead of a 50% speed buff to team melee weapons, grant a 150% (strength modifiable) toxin damage buff to team melee weapons. This damage effect should not combine with already existing elements on weapons, but should be added separately after. It will last for the duration of the ability.

 

Instead of granting a 50% armor increase to allies, apply 200 toxin damage (strength modifiable) with 100% proc chance to enemies within ability range. It is an instant effect, so it will not be affected by power duration. It is a single hit of toxin with 100% status chance (always happens), and the status will only last for 8 seconds. Alternatively, % life strike per hit for the duration of the ability.

 

Both Warcry and Contagion will apply the same 30% debuff to enemy speed. This effect will last for the duration of the ability.

 

All that’s left to cover for is the possible loss of Saryn’s defense from the adaptation of Warcry, based on which draft you chose to use. A mild yet helpful offensive effect should do the trick. If you used the 150% armor buff base, we compensate for the 8% defense loss with 10 toxin damage per second aura around Saryn within 0.5 meters of herself. This range does not scale with power range mods. If you went with the 120% armor buff base, it should be a 25 toxin damage per second aura within 0.5 meters of herself. If the 30% damage reduction draft was chosen, I suppose this feature need not be here.

 

This is my first draft of my Contagion overhaul, kept within balance best I could. It’s still a work in progress, so do offer constructive guidance, and hopefully [DE] will consider these ideas for the Contagion rework, because it sure needs one.

 

Regarding your take on Hallowed Ground, I agree that it should be more powerful against the Infested - not simply because they're the melee faction, but because they should thematically be the Paladin frame's natural enemy. I think it would be better, however, if Radiation was given a higher multiplier against the more common Infested enemies straight-on and decreased in effectiveness against Corpus robotics; visually, Infested are covered in tumors, and their natural weakness (Gas damage) has been all but eliminated by the Toxic Ancients.

 

As for Contagion, I was mostly just thinking of lifting Overheat's values (40% flat reduction + Gas cloud rather than armor, possibly 50 energy too) onto Allure. It wouldn't provide a direct melee buff, just emphasize being in very close proximity to enemies because of the gas cloud itself and potential interaction with her Viral spores; Saryn is as much a caster as she is a melee, so it pays to keep her somewhat fluid in that regard without outright enforcing it.

You could go the route of making Contagion a team-wide melee buff, but honestly I don't see how much difference that would make given how low demand such a utility would be (and that would probably lead to complaints that you're ruining allies' elemental combos).

[MechaKnight]

You could go the route of making Contagion a team-wide melee buff, but honestly I don't see how much difference that would make given how low demand such a utility would be (and that would probably lead to complaints that you're ruining allies' elemental combos).

I was just trying to balance Contagion on a 1:1 ratio to Valkyr's Warcry, hence the team and enemy effects. Also you missed a small portion of text at the bottom where I specified that the toxin effect would be added to weapons separately, similar to how Volt's Electric Shield does.

[taiiat]

I was just trying to balance Contagion on a 1:1 ratio to Valkyr's Warcry

ahh. if Contagion was as useful as WarCry, i'd be happy. i'd even use the Power maybe.

 

even though i'd rather have something that isn't a Melee Power at all, but oh well. i'll just never remember to cast a Melee Power like that until after everything is dead.