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Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)


Archwizard
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I have a couple of suggestions on some of the frames, I'd appreciate some feedback.

 

Mag

-Replace Bullet Attractor with a support ability that boosts Mag's and friendly Warframe's shields. Something like 25%/50%/100% increase in shield. Even though some people will argue that Bullet Attractor is useful, I believe that Mag should have a bigger support role instead of pigeonholing her into a role that doesn't really fit her. Using Bullet Attractor against certain bosses isn't that useful and is a waste of her potential in my opinion.

-Crush, pretty cool ability but is lacking in some areas. For those enemies it doesn't kill, they simply stand there like nothing happened and keep shooting at you. Even though you just saw them get bundled up into a ball. I think a damage proc should be included with it, as well as a hobble effect. Again, "the bones of your enemies are magnetized", they shouldn't be able to run around like that.

 

Nekros

-Give him a "Death Aura" ability. When this ability is active, Nekros absorbs health from enemies around him. Thus healing himself, and draining enemy health bypassing shields over time. I'm not sure which ability this should replace, but it seemed too strong to replace Soul Punch even though it's the obvious choice. Unless rearranging his abilities is an option.

-Shadows of the dead needs tweaking, I know it's already affected by power strength which increases the numbers. But I think power strength should also affect the level/stats of the shadows produced.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Bullet Attractor is fine - like taiiat said, it's very good for problematic heavies. The trouble is that the enemy designers keep finding ways to make it more overpriced for a less overwhelming effect; the only reason why Sonar doesn't get the same complaint is that the damage multiplier affects everyone in range. That said, barring the many ways to game the Bullet Attractor effect to be one of the most powerful support tools to exist, Mag already has Shield Polarize to restore shields - if you had an ability to add total shields on top of that, Mag would quickly devolve into a boring one-gimmick wonder.

 

Agreed with Crush.

 

A Death Aura would be an interesting alternative to Soul Feast in the OP, although in some ways it comes off as World on Fire on crack, barring the amount of damage actually being dealt. The current form of life draining in the OP is a ranged attack to emphasize that Nekros himself shouldn't be in the fray.

 

I'm never entirely sure why people keep suggesting the damage boost to Shadows; if they (the Shadows) were even semi-competent, we already know they'd be a powerful fighting force.

 

Edit: Clarification on the final point.

Edited by Archwizard
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Bullet Attractor is fine - like taiiat said, it's very good for problematic heavies. The trouble is that the enemy designers keep finding ways to make it more overpriced for a less overwhelming effect; the only reason why Sonar doesn't get the same complaint is that the damage multiplier affects everyone in range. That said, barring the many ways to game the Bullet Attractor effect to be one of the most powerful support tools to exist, Mag already has Shield Polarize to restore shields - if you had an ability to add total shields on top of that, Mag would quickly devolve into a boring one-gimmick wonder.

 

A Death Aura would be an interesting alternative to Soul Feast in the OP, although in some ways it comes off as World on Fire on crack, barring the amount of damage actually being dealt. The current form of life draining in the OP is a ranged attack to emphasize that Nekros himself shouldn't be in the fray.

 

I'm never entirely sure why people keep suggesting the damage boost to Shadows; if they were even semi-competent, we already know they'd be a powerful fighting force.

 

I never knew Bullet Attractor was such a popular ability, I hardly ever see anyone using it. Then again, I'm on console so maybe the PC experience is different.

 

For the Death Aura, the main point here is to emphasize how "deadly" Nekros is. Since his theme is that of a Necromancer, it just seemed to fit. Soul Feast seems like a good idea, but I don't like it replacing Desecrate. I know how you feel about that ability, and I do partly agree with you, but as long as this game is heavily dependent on RNG the existence of Desecrate is needed. I'm not very fond of Soul Feast because it doesn't fit Nekros's theme, healing was never an ability associated with Necromancy.

 

For Shadows of the Dead, the reason I'm suggesting the damage increase is because of how incompetent the shadows are. If you're lucky, half of them will be somewhat competent while the others will find a wall to hide behind. The increase in stats/level is to counteract the incompetence of the shadows.

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but as long as this game is heavily dependent on RNG the existence of Desecrate is needed.

! the other way round :v

as long as Desecrate multiplies drop Chances, we heavily rely on poopy Randomization values.

 

the Chances will be balanced around the extra Chances for Desecrate, meaning you get shortchanged if you aren't using it.

(or, instead, Desecrate could not multiply drop Chances, and then everyone can have a fair Chance overall. everybody wins).

Desecrate creates the exact problem it's supposed to be helping.

 

 

 

wouldn't it be better to improve the AI of the Shadows, rather than try to make them brick walls with legs? fixing the source of the problem rather than treating a symptom.

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For the Death Aura, the main point here is to emphasize how "deadly" Nekros is. Since his theme is that of a Necromancer, it just seemed to fit. Soul Feast seems like a good idea, but I don't like it replacing Desecrate. I know how you feel about that ability, and I do partly agree with you, but as long as this game is heavily dependent on RNG the existence of Desecrate is needed. I'm not very fond of Soul Feast because it doesn't fit Nekros's theme, healing was never an ability associated with Necromancy.

 

 

Depends on what kind of Necromancy you're talking about. If you're talking about old, classic Greek necromancy (divining prophecies from dead bodies), then no, healing wasn't a part of Necromancy. But neither was summoning ghosts. It's pretty clear that Nekros channels a pen and paper necromancer, whose skillset includes summoning the dead, divining corpses, debilitating and decaying organic beings, instilling enemies with terror, and guess what: draining vitality from other life forms.

Edited by Noble_Cactus
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I never knew Bullet Attractor was such a popular ability, I hardly ever see anyone using it. Then again, I'm on console so maybe the PC experience is different.

 

It doesn't get much use because of its cost to affected target ratio (would be a great defensive tool if it didn't cost 75 energy and last one enemy's lifespan...), on top of the usual issue with ability targeting. However, it's quite popular for the tricks you can pull with Radial Javelin, Prism, Miter or thrown weapons - redirecting the (multiplied!) damage from multiple blades, beams or bounces into one target.

 

For the Death Aura, the main point here is to emphasize how "deadly" Nekros is. Since his theme is that of a Necromancer, it just seemed to fit. Soul Feast seems like a good idea, but I don't like it replacing Desecrate. I know how you feel about that ability, and I do partly agree with you, but as long as this game is heavily dependent on RNG the existence of Desecrate is needed. I'm not very fond of Soul Feast because it doesn't fit Nekros's theme, healing was never an ability associated with Necromancy.

 

Vampirism is a trait commonly associated with multiple forms of the undead and the necromancers who conjure them - hence your Death Aura suggestion. Displacing the healing onto allies may sound unusual, but consider that RPG necromancers usually have multiple ways to support their undead allies, including healing them through pain-inflicting spells and sacrificial magic. Desecrate, meanwhile, is the one support skill in the game that can only benefit players (even if they could pick up health orbs, you couldn't lead the horse to water), which seems more out of place from the perspective of his kit; Shadows makes him one of the few (read: two) frames who could be designed to consider that you would always have allies, Solo or no.

 

Considering that the idea of Desecrate is that he sprays corpses with nanomachines to mulch them into health orbs, it makes sense for him to skip the middleman and just repair Warframes or nanite constructions directly from whatever is harvested.

Edited by Archwizard
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Damage abilities should deal, in addition to their normal damage, a percentage of their damage multiplied by their rank, so Radial Javelin maxed out, rank 5 would do 25000 damage in addition to the normal 1k, making it viable in the truly high levels where that kind of damage would shear of half an Ancient or Heavy Gunner's health

 

That just makes them do big damage upfront at all levels. 26k hits against level 1s is overkill.

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That just makes them do big damage upfront at all levels. 26k hits against level 1s is overkill.

 

Oh, it's worse than that. They'd have to readjust any number of systems to account for you resorting to flat 26k hits. Probably make energy harder to increase to completely screw caster frames, or affect enemy survival tables just to counter the change and just make this a game of big numbers which would completely screw weapons.

 

Which is why scaling damage is better. Much easier to appropriately monitor and adjust, makes abilities an alternative to weapons rather than completely outclassing them.

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Whatre your thoughts on the upcoming faction mods for warframes?

 

Several seem like they could be useful but aren't very creative (like the elementals, or all the added heals), Nekros' is simply too situational. All-in-all, my feelings towards the implemented ones are lukewarm, though they were quite explicit that there would be more in the future; it's possible that these are unimpressive because were rushed to meet the update deadline, which could mean future skills will receive more time/thought and generally be more interesting.

 

When I consider the notion of them releasing one for Limbo already, I worry somewhat that future frames could be built specifically with holes in their arsenal to accommodate their Augments. Thus far, they're mostly tacked-on benefits that don't fit cleanly with the core benefit/philosophy of the ability itself, which may be acceptable (Compare "Hey kids, I made some extra utility, want some?" to "You bought a locked box; the key's sold separately!"), but I'd be all for seeing more adventurous mods with tradeoffs that completely change the benefits of using a skill.

 

That said, I disagree with any notion that they could/should ever be used to 'fix' any frames later. The cost of getting one is incredibly high (even before upgrades), so the majority of players may be stuck with the baseline version; an ability that needs a specific mod or loadout to begin to be useful (the key in the above metaphor) is, simply, a poorly-designed ability.

Fireball can give Ember's allies Fire damage? Fine, still doesn't make up for the fact that Accelerant is a selfish utility. Psychic Bolts can disarm Nyx' foes? Alright, now make Psychic Bolts useful baseline so this comes off as a side benefit rather than the only way to make it viable.

Edited by Archwizard
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The ability rework and ability augmentation mods add a level of synergy to warframe abilities, but much is left to be desired. The new mods seem to patch shortcomings within the content it was made for, which is taking a clunky route to improving an item without outright buffing it.

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Hrm.

 

I was looking forward to the augments being sidegrades to existing abilities, and I can't help but say I'm a little disappointed that they're enhancements. For most frames, these enhancements are minor but novel at best (Greedy Pull, Vauban's Tesla net thing, etc.). Others suggest that DE has no idea how their game works (the elemental buffs, Savage Silence). A few others are actual improvements but feel like they should have been worked into the base ability (Dive Bomb vortex, Radial Javelin melee buff... which is uncomfortably similar to Radial Blind as it is). And in one particular case, the augment just straight up makes a powerful ability even stronger (Hall of Malevolence, even if it's a decent attempt at making HoM scale better).

 

-

 

Soul Survivor (weird name) is an odd case. I actually like the idea, both conceptually and mechanically. From what I understand, it works like Maya's Rez in Borderlands 2: point at a teammate and instantly revive them. Could be useful in tight situations. And it's very Necromancer-y. Give a portion of your soul to bring a teammate back from the brink of death. I like it.

 

The problem is that the costs for rezzing a teammate are way, way too high. A portion of your health and ALL of your shields and energy? ALL of it? That's ridiculous. Especially when Nekros is decent at rezzing people as it is with Shadows to bodyblock for him. I'd change it to cost the regular amount of energy, take no shields, and cost a portion of health. This could actually synergize with Desecrate or a reworked life drain, for obvious reasons.

 

Soul Punch still has annoying targeting issues as well. It's strange that many other frames can move around when casting their 1 (i.e., Ember and Oberon), yet Nekros has to root himself in place and leave himself open to do his.

 

-

 

Anyway, that's my take on one of the augments. I feel like future augments should be actual sidegrades, as I said before. Actual augments for abilities that you could put on and take off as you see fit, rather than features that feel like they should be part of the base ability.

 

Shameless plug:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/329703-banshee-skill-augment-suggestion-sonic-scream/

Edited by Noble_Cactus
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Hi Archwizard, I just want to know your thoughts if..

 

Each of our abilities have trees to expand on.

  -This tree includes durations, efficiency, strength etc.on it.

  -These abilities level through use and give you points to allocate.

 

Each tree has utilities unlocked by the syndicate ability augments.

  -You can only choose one but you can forma to reset your ability tree to change it.

 

*Every warframe enhancement mod(duration, efficiency etc..) will be removed from the game.

 

Thank you.

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Soul Survivor (weird name) is an odd case. I actually like the idea, both conceptually and mechanically. From what I understand, it works like Maya's Rez in Borderlands 2: point at a teammate and instantly revive them. Could be useful in tight situations. And it's very Necromancer-y. Give a portion of your soul to bring a teammate back from the brink of death. I like it.

 

The problem is that the costs for rezzing a teammate are way, way too high. A portion of your health and ALL of your shields and energy? ALL of it? That's ridiculous. Especially when Nekros is decent at rezzing people as it is with Shadows to bodyblock for him. I'd change it to cost the regular amount of energy, take no shields, and cost a portion of health. This could actually synergize with Desecrate or a reworked life drain, for obvious reasons.

 

Soul Punch still has annoying targeting issues as well. It's strange that many other frames can move around when casting their 1 (i.e., Ember and Oberon), yet Nekros has to root himself in place and leave himself open to do his.

 

What could be interesting is if they combined the Soul Punch idea here and Sacrifice from the OP, to turn Soul Punch into an attack that drains health from the user to cast and restores energy, with an augment to give it an energy cost on top of that to revive allies with the amount of health sacrificed.

 

We already have Rift Walk and Energy Vampire, a self energy-restoring attack isn't even out of the question.

 

It would be nice is if they could resolve Soul Punch's targeting somehow, but I expect having it deal splash damage would make it too similar to Fireball (and the OP's suggestion for Freeze), and turning it into a beam attack would be out of the question.

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What could be interesting is if they combined the Soul Punch idea here and Sacrifice from the OP, to turn Soul Punch into an attack that drains health from the user to cast and restores energy, with an augment to give it an energy cost on top of that to revive allies with the amount of health sacrificed.

 

I do like Sacrifice, but I do wonder how that would work with the whole toolkit.

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Hi Archwizard, I just want to know your thoughts if..

 

Each of our abilities have trees to expand on.

  -This tree includes durations, efficiency, strength etc.on it.

  -These abilities level through use and give you points to allocate.

 

Each tree has utilities unlocked by the syndicate ability augments.

  -You can only choose one but you can forma to reset your ability tree to change it.

 

*Every warframe enhancement mod(duration, efficiency etc..) will be removed from the game.

 

Thank you.

 

On the one-hand, it would allow you more customization in terms of min-maxing, since you could increase the range on Frost's abilities but leave those increases out of Snow Globe, or duration on Saryn's abilities but off of Miasma.

 

On the other hand, they tried that experiment in early beta and it didn't work out, leading to the current modding system. Additionally, it would mean the most problematic abilities would become even more infuriating to customize, and would spit in the face of anyone who ever obtained or built for a Corrupted mods. Finally, combining the two systems would likely make the customization just a bit too complex.

 

Plus I hate the idea of you having to use the Syndicate to make an ability good.

Edited by Archwizard
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Plus I hate the idea of you having to use the Syndicate to make an ability good.

i can certainly agree with that.

 

 

also, idunno, having both current Ability boosting Mods and ones specifically for Abilities (which would go into perhaps a couple slots for unique Mods for each Ability) doesn't sound overly complex to me. you'd have the global Mods we have currently, and later on in the game Mods for specific Abilities that change how they function or add new function(s) or could be as simple as extra of an Ability stat for that Ability.

we don't burden new players with Nightmare or Corrupted Mods early on, they have their straight forward Mods to start with, then (assuming they progress the expected way, but they'll probably get carried and skip things :v) start picking up some Nightmare Mods to flesh out their preferences a little more, and finally Corrupted Mods for specialization.

and then after that, we'd have unique Mods for Abilities. as long as players progress through the game in the right order, it should work fine IMO.

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Plus I hate the idea of you having to use the Syndicate to make an ability good.

Once a while back during a devstream, the developers took offense to the term "band-aid mod" for mods that were too insignificant for most players and only seem to compensate for a lacking that could be cured within a rework or implementation of some kind. What bothers me is that I can see the augment mods becoming such if the developers take the wrong thought process in choosing effects for the mods as more are implemented.

 

I have mixed feelings about the current set of warframe augments, but I can forgive them for now. Some of them are fun, but others could have done better to fit with current gameplay design. There are even a few that could have been abilities on the warframe from release, such as the ones for Ash, Hydroid, Nekros, Nyx, and Trinity. I suppose it's fair for them to be augments on top of the current abilities, although from a design perspective one may question why they weren't the abilities to begin with. I suppose I'm fine with it as long as the augment mod feels like a sufficient bonus for the slot it takes up, even though abilities like Soul Punch would be worthless without them.

Edited by MechaKnight
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Been having a few thoughts about Limbo, although (since my Limbo is still 2 days out...) I presently can only address other peoples' concerns rather than draw from my own experiences.

It helps that they've been quite loud.

 

I've seen a few suggestions already to have Rift Walk adopt the effects of Banish (if you tag an enemy on the other side with your weapon, they're dragged to your side with you), although it's hard to say if that means Banish should be removed or not.

 

On the one-hand, Banish would still be able to affect allies, which Rift Walk likely wouldn't; it also gives the selective element that Cataclysm doesn't. Of course, this also means the ability to troll or be trolled by allies with the same skill; any involuntary "support" beyond an output buff or heal tends to get twisted, as seen by Loki, Vauban, Valkyr and pre-8.3 Mag. Hek, you even get complaints about Snow Globes.

 

On the other hand, Banish would be one of three skills on the same frame competing for - at least upfront - the same job (hi Ember), and not even the most cost-efficient if merged with Rift Walk. With Banish removed, there's more room to give Limbo some actual payoff... even if limited to the first or second slot.

 

And I think I've got at least one alternative in mind...

Edited by Archwizard
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Honestly I'm mostly just surprised that being in the rift doesn't remove enemy collision. (You'd think it'd come with intangibility.)

 

Sidenotes, current testing implies that casting Banish on Decoys yields no result, presumably because it's considered an entity rather than an enemy or player. Also confirmed that Rift Walk doesn't give invulnerability to your Sentinel, which should be corrected since it's very hard to target them.
Cataclysm just seems like a weird concept, since it's literally just an area Banish... that shrinks, to the detriment of the player, especially since the final burst of damage it deals is in a very small area.

 

Unrelated to Limbo, starting to think Fireball would be perfect if it were just a faster version of Napalm's blast...

Edited by Archwizard
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Wow. Big undertaking. HUGE. But something has to be done about frame abilities not making friends.

 

And ASH NEEDS ATTENTION.

 

FREE AIM TELEPORT.

 

And remove bladestorm. Something else please.

 

:D

Maybe like a him throwing a blast of 100 shurikens or something that will connect his first skills to his ult?

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Unrelated to Limbo, starting to think Fireball would be perfect if it were just a faster version of Napalm's blast...

 

I've been saying this forever, that it should really set an area on fire, not just an enemy and a chance at everyone around it.

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Current considerations for Limbo (input and commentary welcome):

- Banish affects environment entities such as Decoys or defense objectives, but for a reduced duration. Banishing a friendly player affects their companion as well; Banished allies can be unbanished by attacking unbanished enemies.

- Rift Walk causes all enemies in the "material world" that the player attacks to become Banished until Rift Walk ends; does not affect currently-Banished targets.

- Rift Surge roots all enemies who are in the rift at the moment of casting (Until their Banishment ends? For the whole duration?). Damage multiplier affects anyone who enters the rift while active.

- Cataclysm instead causes anything to enter it to swap which "side" of the rift they are on(?), until exiting or Banishment ends. Drops in Cataclysm can be picked up by anyone within.

- Being inside the rift also removes collision against entities outside of the rift.

 

Figure he needs QoL changes over revamping, so he'll be going in the lower sections.

 

I've been saying this forever, that it should really set an area on fire, not just an enemy and a chance at everyone around it.

 

Alright, so for a form to add to the OP:
- Fireball also causes a sphere of flames (akin to a Napalm blast) to manifest at the point of impact, affected by Power Range and Duration.

 

The small problem is that Fire Blast comes off as redundant with a change like this. So, our options are twofold:
1) Adjust Fire Blast as it is in the OP to emphasize some kind of "barrier" effect. Instead of just manipulating the status to keep enemies on the circle, it really should actively keep enemies in or out (although "in" might mean removing the initial knockback).

2) Replace Fire Blast entirely. Sort of a popular suggestion these days, I know, but it would mean removing her area control to either increase her survivability or mobility (probably the latter).

 

Once a while back during a devstream, the developers took offense to the term "band-aid mod" for mods that were too insignificant for most players and only seem to compensate for a lacking that could be cured within a rework or implementation of some kind. What bothers me is that I can see the augment mods becoming such if the developers take the wrong thought process in choosing effects for the mods as more are implemented.

 

Been thinking back to this, in light of the last devstream; there was a mention that the DC will be called to think of some future Augments, and I can't help but worry that players will ask for "corrective" Augments (seeing it as their one chance to affect how abilities should be) that will be mandatory to give abilities even noteworthy performance, rather than just minor boosts or trade-offs.

Edited by Archwizard
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Current considerations for Limbo (input and commentary welcome):

- Banish affects environment entities such as Decoys or defense objectives, but for a reduced duration. Banishing a friendly player affects their companion as well; Banished allies can be unbanished by attacking unbanished enemies.

- Rift Walk causes all enemies in the "material world" that the player attacks to become Banished until Rift Walk ends; does not affect currently-Banished targets.

- Rift Surge roots all enemies who are in the rift at the moment of casting (Until their Banishment ends? For the whole duration?). Damage multiplier affects anyone who enters the rift while active.

- Cataclysm instead causes anything to enter it to swap which "side" of the rift they are on(?), until exiting or Banishment ends. Drops in Cataclysm can be picked up by anyone within.

- Being inside the rift also removes collision against entities outside of the rift.

 

Figure he needs QoL changes over revamping, so he'll be going in the lower sections.

 

 

Alright, so for a form to add to the OP:

- Fireball also causes a sphere of flames (akin to a Napalm blast) to manifest at the point of impact, affected by Power Range and Duration.

 

The small problem is that Fire Blast comes off as redundant with a change like this. So, our options are twofold:

1) Adjust Fire Blast as it is in the OP to emphasize some kind of "barrier" effect. Instead of just manipulating the status to keep enemies on the circle, it really should actively keep enemies in or out (although "in" might mean removing the initial knockback).

2) Replace Fire Blast entirely. Sort of a popular suggestion these days, I know, but it would mean removing her area control to either increase her survivability or mobility (probably the latter).

 

 

Been thinking back to this, in light of the last devstream; there was a mention that the DC will be called to think of some future Augments, and I can't help but worry that players will ask for "corrective" Augments (seeing it as their one chance to affect how abilities should be) that will be mandatory to give abilities even noteworthy performance, rather than just minor boosts or trade-offs.

Limbo:

Sounds like nice tweaks, solving all trolling and banishing-speed issues etc :)

Only thing I'd say is that Cataclysm should probably stay as always being an area of pure Rift, so you always have a reliable AoE Rift placement at your disposal. Another thing I'd like to add to it is to be able to cancel (implode) it early. (Although, I think that should be a case for all abilities, that they are either stackable, refreshable or cancellable baseline [depending on their overall usefulness], due to being forced to using max rank now, but I know you have differing opinions about that and want it to be a mod [which I consider to be a bandaid solution])

 

Ember:

I've been advocating Fireball to be a "merge" of it and Fire Blast for a long time now, as that allows her to get an ability in Fire Blast's place. I'd definitely cater for a mobility ability, due to its great synergy with World on Fire and Accelerant being medium range abilities. Fireball would then be (along with mobility one) the long range initiating powers.

 

Augments:

Word. Abilities should be AWESOME baseline. Augment mods should just make the abilities do something more on top of that, not make them functional in the first place (like Nyx's Psychic Bolts, urgh). Imo, the perfect augment mod right now is probably Vauban's Tesla one. Tesla by itself is definitely functional and fitting to his defensive CC-kit. With the augment it just becomes even way more awesome, and still synergizes so awesomely well with his kit.

And another problem: 50% of the augment mods are absolutely USELESS for a solo player like me. That's just biased bullcrap. It's certainly very nice that they can help teammates, I'm not denying that, but they should give a "selfish" boost too (Example: All the basic elemental ones, Fireball/Freeze/Venom/Shock, if they also ALWAYS buffed the caster upon cast, then they'd be perfectly fine). Otherwise, there is ZERO reason for someone like me to get my hands on these mods. And that's just silly, considering this is supposed to be a form of "endgame" (or at least long term) objective...

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