Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Elydir]

I believe "victories" refers to the ideas presented by players in this thread. I don't remember who suggested the changes to Oberon and Nyx

 

iirc, I think MC and Smite were actually in the thread when it was started. Theres a bunch of people in the first few pages talking about them.

Arch originally had something called Guardain Oath in place of Renewal, which seems an awful lot like Shatter Shield. 

[Cancer_Cowboy]

All I'm getting from this list is "muh theme". The Nekros changes touted as being mandatory don't do anything, and actually take him out of his current niche and drop him in the middle of Oberon-land.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Cancer_Cowboy

[taiiat]

and actually take him out of his current niche

and what, pray tell, would that be?

 

AFK farming bot? :|

he doesn't really have a niche as it stands.

Edited December 2, 2014 by taiiat

[Cancer_Cowboy]

and what, pray tell, would that be?

 

AFK farming bot? :|

Yeah, pretty much. Just like Frost is a AFK defense bot, Saryn is a AFK nuke bot, and Trinity is a AFK heal / mana bot. I'd suggest you focus on improving gameplay rather than trying to change charactesr around their "themes". Leave the Warframes within their niches and work on the spells around them. Alternatively, yell and scream at DE to stop making one-button wonder spells.

[011100110110000101101101]

and what, pray tell, would that be?

 

AFK farming bot? :|

Pretty much, and that is really disappointing.

 

I remember how excited I was when the Devs talked about him, a necromancy themed Warframe sounded like it had a ton of potential, and then they mentioned desecrate, and I was so unbelievably disappointed.

 

I knew that DE was making a mistake, I knew all it was going to be used for was mod farming and Survival, and I was right.

 

So were dozens of others pleading with DE to replace desecrate with Life-Steal.

 

Now it's too late for DE to replace Desecrate, and Nekros is ruined forever.

[Hueminator]

Nekros

 

1) Soul Punch don't require target and you shoot out a big wave.

 

2) Terrify can be recast anytime so you don't run into the problem where the mob you feared is miles away from you and you get another platoon in front of you and you can't fear them.

 

3) Desecrate comes with a boom or a linger trail of poison/flame at the corpse. You can still farm and set up temporary traps at the hall ways or make things explode when time right.

 

4) Maybe on top of the minions he spawn he got 3 replica of himself (maybe just pure black) wearing the scythe and running around smacking.  This could be the augment mod.

 

Mesa

 

I feel she should have a power where you have increase reload speed and if you happen to use dual weapon you automatically reload with one hand when total clip get to half while still shooting with the other gun.  Imagine that you got magical hand and can reload any secondary by throwing it up and catching it.

 

I'll probably name it: Bullet Storm!

Edited December 2, 2014 by Hueminator

[EchoesOfRain]

I'd also like to consider proposals for a dodge skill to replace Shatter Shield; something that encourages the player to be evasive for their own survival, without getting too close to enemies. My own idea for this is a short-distance teleport that buffs Mesa to temporarily become harder to hit, but the enemy accuracy changes suggest something stronger needs to be done for that latter part. Decoys could perhaps do it, but we have three frames that specialize in those. I also don't really see Gunslingers as being out-and-out stealth classes so much as very boisterous and self-confident mid-to-high ranged.

 

Just an idea for shatter shield; Once activated she has a "dodge" stored. Only one Dodge can be stored at a time. Whenever a bullet or melee unit is about to damage her a small area around her is immensely slowed down, including bullets, enemies, and Mesa herself. Pressing up, down, right, or left will cause her to do a fancy flip out of the way, removing the slowdown and dodging the attack while quickly shooting enemies that were in the slowing field. After the dodge, though, the "Dodge" is used up and she must cast the skill again. After a dodge, she gains a movement speed buff as well. 

 

With this, she'd have a good defense tool, but she'd have to keep casting it to keep it up to make up for how strong it is, as both CC and pseudo invincibility. With some tweaks, I think this could become really good

Edited December 2, 2014 by EchoesOfRain

[Duck_Nation]

snip

There's no irony. I'm fully well aware of the democratization of the process and conversation. As long as you recognize that, we're good. But when you say that and your actions still carry an air of superiority, your statement looks hollow regardless. Just a thought.

And for the record, I know that wasn't feedback. I didn't intend it as such. I'm not going to put exhaustive time into smashing your suggestions to bits. Remember we just went over this being a democratic process? It's not an argument - it's a vote.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Duck_Nation

[sushibend]

Why so much hate on nekros desecrate?

 

Nekros has been the only warframe brave enough to face the hordes of RNG. He is a symbol of hope, despite his "dark" appearance.

 

I wouldn't mind if nekros was renamed 

 

Farmos-with the overalls and the hat

 

or...

 

Grindos-Steampunk warframe?

 

BETTER YET!!!

 

Desecratos????- Normal nekros with much more emphasis on the hand motion of desecrate

[Archwizard]

Just an idea for shatter shield; Once activated she has a "dodge" stored. Only one Dodge can be stored at a time. Whenever a bullet or melee unit is about to damage her a small area around her is immensely slowed down, including bullets, enemies, and Mesa herself. Pressing up, down, right, or left will cause her to do a fancy flip out of the way, removing the slowdown and dodging the attack while quickly shooting enemies that were in the slowing field. After the dodge, though, the "Dodge" is used up and she must cast the skill again. After a dodge, she gains a movement speed buff as well. 

 

So basically, Witch Time.

 

Could be interesting. I feel if it was something more like a short-distance teleport, it would be more utilizable during her ultimate. 

 

Why so much hate on nekros desecrate?

 

Nekros has been the only warframe brave enough to face the hordes of RNG. He is a symbol of hope, despite his "dark" appearance.

 

I wouldn't mind if nekros was renamed 

 

Farmos-with the overalls and the hat

 

Only if he summons a tractor for his ultimate, and Terrify is renamed "Bad Trip".

[MotherofHermes]

One thing this OP brings to light. something has to be done with desecrate. even with Natural talent on i spend more time pressing 3 then i do shooting my gun or swinging my sword. In fact, im pretty sure if im not hitting 3 the party i am in starts internally frowning at me. 

[replay97]

Energy usage ..read my topic started today pls

[sushibend]

One thing this OP brings to light. something has to be done with desecrate. even with Natural talent on i spend more time pressing 3 then i do shooting my gun or swinging my sword. In fact, im pretty sure if im not hitting 3 the party i am in starts internally frowning at me. 

 

Hmm

what if desecrate was toggle-able

[taiiat]

what if desecrate was toggle-able

if it still creates extra Mods and Oxygen Drops, then all it'll change to is from pressing 3 a lot to:

 

- Start Mission

- turn on Desecrate

- play Mission until you go to Extraction

 

Desecrate will literally just be active 100% of the time then. you won't be stuck anymore, but you'll still literally constantly be using the Ability because it creates extra Objective items or Mods.

[GTG3000]

Honestly, what is the problem people have with Shatter Shield? Mesa needs survivability, since she doesn't have any AoE safe for Shooting Gallery, and that one can't exactly turn the odds against a whole crowd.

 

Mesa is built to be a slow-ish frame that can't hide and deal with enemies at the same time, and her kit reflects that really well.

 

The only two problems I have with her are the randomness of Shooting Gallery and the Ballistic battery requiring a cast animation, which makes it just a bit less effective as a sustained damage augment.

 

[Noble_Cactus]

Honestly, what is the problem people have with Shatter Shield? Mesa needs survivability, since she doesn't have any AoE safe for Shooting Gallery, and that one can't exactly turn the odds against a whole crowd.

 

Mesa is built to be a slow-ish frame that can't hide and deal with enemies at the same time, and her kit reflects that really well.

 

The only two problems I have with her are the randomness of Shooting Gallery and the Ballistic battery requiring a cast animation, which makes it just a bit less effective as a sustained damage augment.

I think the issue people have with it (and with Mesa's kit in general) is that it's pretty uninspired and plain boring. Shatter shield gives her the survival she needs, but it begs the question of whether DE could have given her a more interesting survival tool that both reflects her character as a nimble gunslinger and isn't just a rework of Turbulence.

I understand DE is hard at work on big gameplay overhauls like Hubs, but that comes at the expense of the rest of the new content, which all feels very lazy. Gammacor and Mesa herself come to mind.

[GTG3000]

I think the issue people have with it (and with Mesa's kit in general) is that it's pretty uninspired and plain boring. Shatter shield gives her the survival she needs, but it begs the question of whether DE could have given her a more interesting survival tool that both reflects her character as a nimble gunslinger and isn't just a rework of Turbulence.

I understand DE is hard at work on big gameplay overhauls like Hubs, but that comes at the expense of the rest of the new content, which all feels very lazy. Gammacor and Mesa herself come to mind.

 

So, basically it's people asking for more gimmics? Besides, it's not a rework of turbulence, it's basically a reimagined Overheat. 

 

No one ever stated that she would be a nimble gunslinger, she's just a gun-based frame, and she has that in spades. I can't be the only person to find her kit comfortable and fun to use - you have your burst damage boost (which comes quite handy against occasional things you just want dead RIGHT NOW), your overall damage boost with some defence, your survivability and your main source of ability-based damage awesomeness.

 

I honestly can't understand people who would rather have gimmicky powers than a solid kit like this one (even if these abilities need a bit of tweaking). But that's my opinion, I guess.

 

While indeed, every frame is a special snowflake, I think it's okay if some of them will go without any pompous and flashy things that stand between you and killing enemies.

[EchoesOfRain]

No one ever stated that she would be a nimble gunslinger, she's just a gun-based frame, and she has that in spades. I can't be the only person to find her kit comfortable and fun to use - you have your burst damage boost (which comes quite handy against occasional things you just want dead RIGHT NOW), your overall damage boost with some defence, your survivability and your main source of ability-based damage awesomeness.

 

I honestly can't understand people who would rather have gimmicky powers than a solid kit like this one (even if these abilities need a bit of tweaking). But that's my opinion, I guess.

 

While indeed, every frame is a special snowflake, I think it's okay if some of them will go without any pompous and flashy things that stand between you and killing enemies.

 

She's based on western cowboys, who are known for quick-draw duals. They're supposed to be able to eliminate the enemy before they even have a chance to react. I'm pretty sure this calls for nimbleness, as opposed to just gun-based. I want to feel like a quick-draw dualist, not just some gun-user.

 

Because gimmicky powers make a frame stand out. Giving every frame a similar skill just ruins uniqueness and makes frames boring to use. If every frame had a similar skillshot, a buff/CC, a shield, and a nuke, where does the diversity come in? what's the point in making new frames then?

[Archwizard]

I honestly can't understand people who would rather have gimmicky powers than a solid kit 

 

I don't understand people who think the two are mutually exclusive.

Look at Loki: High scaling potential because of his low reliance on damage output, but originally one of, if not the, most gimmicky frames to be released (Switch Teleport will not be denied).

 

What makes a frame exciting?

The answer I think we can all agree on, is when it encourages the player to try a new strategy (No, Desecrate is not a strategy), or even several strategies - therefore, it needs to do something unique from the frame right next to it; otherwise, like Echoes said, there's no point to creating a distinction. Maintaining this excitement requires provisions that the kit itself scales well (unlike Oberon was on release, creating a joke character) and isn't overshadowed by how frustrating it is to play with or alongside (unlike Limbo rather still is).

 

Expectation plays no small part in it, either; titles like "gunslinger" carry with them certain archetypes, each of which are attached to a certain strategy. Players get excited to see the archetype because of the unique implications these new strategies could have if adapted into the game (like a minion master, or a melee specialist). New variations on an old classic are acceptable and even appreciated for people who have tried it elsewhere, but outright defiance just spits in the face of players who carried that expectation with them.

It's a bird of some kind, sure, but I wouldn't call a chicken a new breed of duck just because of its feathers; swimming should be a strength instead of a weakness, and why does it resist headshots?

Edited December 3, 2014 by Archwizard

[GTG3000]

I don't understand people who think the two are mutually exclusive.

Look at Loki: High scaling potential because of his low reliance on damage output, but originally one of, if not the, most gimmicky frames to be released (Switch Teleport will not be denied).

 

What makes a frame exciting?

The answer I think we can all agree on, is when it encourages the player to try a new strategy (No, Desecrate is not a strategy), or even several strategies - therefore, it needs to do something unique from the frame right next to it; otherwise, like Echoes said, there's no point to creating a distinction. Maintaining this excitement requires provisions that the kit itself scales well (unlike Oberon was on release, creating a joke character) and isn't overshadowed by how frustrating it is to play with or alongside (unlike Limbo rather still is).

 

Expectation plays no small part in it, either; titles like "gunslinger" carry with them certain archetypes, each of which are attached to a certain strategy. Players get excited to see the archetype because of the unique implications these new strategies could have if adapted into the game (like a minion master, or a melee specialist). New variations on an old classic are acceptable and even appreciated for people who have tried it elsewhere, but outright defiance just spits in the face of players who carried that expectation with them.

It's a bird of some kind, sure, but I wouldn't call a chicken a new breed of duck just because of its feathers; swimming should be a strength instead of a weakness, and why does it resist headshots?

 

You could also argue that a frame is exiting when it's kit is intuitive and unobtrusive to the gameplay. Once you get ability-using down to a more reflexive approach, the frame becomes more fun. 

 

Although I guess I do overlook the fact that people heard "gunslinger" and didn't think "gun frame", because that's exactly how it looks to me the thought process of Mesa's design went - she's built for guns, and that makes her fairly unique, in my opinion. She is fairly divergent from other tanky frames in that her abilities are built around staying on the distance with ability to survive an occasional sniper-crewman and a panic button for enemies that come too close. Unlike zephyr, who is more suited for coming into hug-range, Trin who needs to be close for Link to work, melee-based Valkyr or Rhino who, unlike her, doesn't have an aimbot ultimate for great ranges.

[JayGideon1]

I really like the idea of Mesa being able to shoot bullets out of the air. I mean any Tenno in their frame has enough dexterity and skill to deflect full auto gunfire with blades of various sizes, a frame based entirely on being even better of a shot than the already superhuman Tenno could very well shoot a bullet out of the air

[RealPandemonium]

Remember a while ago when an update broke Desecrate and made it super-spammable?  Desecrate should be closer to that.  That way the farm-fanatics can farm to their heart's content while more reasonable players can just drop two or three quick desecrates in 1.5 seconds whenever there's a lot of corpses around.  Alternately, make Desecrate a one-handed cast animation (like Vauban traps or Volt Shock) so that it doesn't interrupt gameplay.  

[taiiat]

Alternately, make Desecrate a one-handed Ability

that would be a step forwards, but it wouldn't actually address the problem of it being an Ability you should be casting nearly constantly due to it affecting Oxygen Drops and Mods.

[Pbrandon1]

Here's a gimmick for peacemaker.

 

This will be like Red Dead Redemption.

 

Just have it where Mesa locks down in one position and Mesa pulls out her guns and the player has to hover over each target they want to mark and then once marked, they will be killed after the marking period is finished.

 

Or

 

Have it where Mesa moves into different positions while locked down and once she aims in place, the player has to aim at a target and she will fire and so and so forth.

 

Lastly, if you don't make these changes, at-least for god sake, smooth-en up the animations for Peacemaker. It would make it more cool if it was actually more like smooth shots instead of auto-aim at work.

[taiiat]

-snip-

why not just give the Player control over the Magic Pistols?

 

reduced Movement speed, but giving you complete control over the Magic Pistols. aim and shoot at anything you want. also have infinite Magazine(no Reloading) so that you can fire like a stereotypical western movie, firing your Pistols like a madman until your targets are down.

:)